Magic Machinery?

[Khanjar]

Hi Playgrounders,

A thought occurred to me and I thought it might be a fun thought experiment.

Wall of Fire + Permanency + Fundamental Understanding of Thermodynamics and Mechanics = infite steam engine?

Wall of Fire can be made permanent with a L12 Wizard, totally within NPC territory. The spell description specifies a fairly regular amount of fire damage for an object or creature within the wall itself. One could then conceivably construct an apparatus over the wall of fire (or if you're really smart build it before you hire the Wizard).

This apparatus would be the boiler component of a large steam engine that the community could then harness to do work (in the physics sense). This would then be the basis for a magical/industrial revolution. This could even lend itself to a campaing setting or at the very least some sort of organizion within an existing setting that is disrutpting the status quo for the labour market.

Now I suppose this makes a few assumptions:

The existence of magic doesn't stop the process of scientific inquiry (you know, because magic solves all our problems, so why bother?)
The scientific community has progressed to the point where the prerequisite ideas have been developed such that the steam engine is invented. This might be harder than you think; It took us until 1781 to develop a rotating steam engine that could be harnessed on an industrial scale.
The scientific and magical communities aren't so isolated from each other, that someone gets the idea to combine magic and science to come up with the idea to mix the two together.


The next logical extension from this idea might be the application of electromagnetism to generate electricty. There could be a central power plant, a distribution network, and people could use electric motors within the community to operate various appliances.

What other science + magic combos can people think of that might have such a potentially wide reaching effect that they could change the nature of a campaign setting?

[weckar]

Wouldn't binding a Fire Elemental have effectively the same effect? Its natural convection will move enough air to at least power a small vehicle.

EDIT: Basically you'll want to look somewhere on the sliding scale between Eberron and Tippyverse.

[Khanjar]

Wouldn't binding a Fire Elemental have effectively the same effect? Its natural convection will move enough air to at least power a small vehicle.

EDIT: Basically you'll want to look somewhere on the sliding scale between Eberron and Tippyverse.

Convection currents aren't really strong enough to do any appreciable amount of work. And also short of golemancy there isn't really an easy way to get a permanent elemental working for you as far as I know.

Eberron is more about the availability of low level magic in day-to-day life.

Tippyverse as far as I know, is mostly about permanent magic traps, and permanent teleportation circles and how those two things would create a stepping-disk-like Puppeteer city network (Ringworld) and an untamed, monster infested wilderness that the city-folk rarely venture into.

I'm curious about putting magic and science together. What kinds of simple scientific concepts could be augmented or amplified in usefulness by magic?

[weckar]

Well, I could definitely imagine an assembly line being more efficient if it used a programmed Mage Hand instead of robots...

Also, much of Eberron's magic replicates technology. I thought that that was what you were after. My bad.

[Nibbens]

Golems are an infinite labor source. Tell them to do something and they keep doing it until told otherwise. I'm sure this has some practical applications in a city where science and magic coexist side by side.

[watchwood]

Wall of Fire is overkill for a steam engine. Get an unlimited use object of Heat Metal, doable by a 3rd level spellcaster with Craft Wonderous.

[Vhaidara]

We actually covered this in another thread. Much easier to have a magical item (say a coin) of Heat Metal, activated on command. Put it in some water (constantly refilled by a Create Water trap triggered by the water level getting too low). The coin will heat up, causing the water to evaporate and boom, steam engine using a first level spell.

[watchwood]

Second level and a cantrip, but otherwise correct. :P

[Vhaidara]

Averages out to a first level :smalltongue:

[CIDE]

Makes me think of the steam stuff from Iron Kingdom. Need to see about making a steam-powered construct. But now how to program it for cheap spell-wise? since to power it and run it apparently is dirt cheap too.

[watchwood]

Build some manual controls inside of it for an operator to use it?

[CIDE]

Build some manual controls inside of it for an operator to use it?


So steam mechs. But what about steam robots?

[ellindsey]

Brown mold is always colder than its environment, in a flagrant violation of the laws of thermodynamics. We can use this to make a perpetual motion machine. Make some ammonia with whatever alchemical means you like. Surround the container of ammonia with brown mold to keep it cold enough to stay liquid. Let some of the ammonia out of the container and run it through a heat exchanger with the outside air. The ammonia will turn to gas. Use that expanding gas to turn a turbine or run a piston engine, then run the gaseous ammonia through a heat-exchanger with more brown mold to return it to liquid form.

You want to make sure not to let it get too cold (which will slow down the rate at which the ammonia vaporizes, and could even kill the brown mold) and keep open flames away from it (which will cause the brown mold to explosively reproduce). And it will even work in an anti-magic field, since brown mold's ability to violate thermodynamics is Ex, not Su.

[ArqArturo]

Just chuck a small fire elemental and a water elemental into a steam engine.

[watchwood]

Just chuck a small fire elemental and a water elemental into a steam engine.

That'll work until they get bored and break out, or one of them kills the other (being opposed elementals and all).

[The Grue]

We actually covered this in another thread. Much easier to have a magical item (say a coin) of Heat Metal, activated on command. Put it in some water (constantly refilled by a Create Water trap triggered by the water level getting too low). The coin will heat up, causing the water to evaporate and boom, steam engine using a first level spell.

If you're using a closed-cycle steam turbine, you wouldn't even need the Create Water trap in theory. Though you would need a coin of Chill Metal.

[TuggyNE]

And also short of golemancy there isn't really an easy way to get a permanent elemental working for you as far as I know.

Eberron is more about the availability of low level magic in day-to-day life.

More to the point, Eberron explicitly has permanent elemental binding for industrial use. That's how a whole lot of their unique stuff works: Lightning Rail, airships, and so on.

[Akisa]

More to the point, Eberron explicitly has permanent elemental binding for industrial use. That's how a whole lot of their unique stuff works: Lightning Rail, airships, and so on.

Which is basically slavery of another kind.

[TuggyNE]

Which is basically slavery of another kind.

Yes, please do non-sequitur me, it's fine. :smallconfused:

Anyway, since Eberron elemental binding is essentially a more flexible version of the same process as golem construction, it has the same ethical considerations. Which brings us back to the post I quoted to begin with.

[Phelix-Mu]

Divorcing the machines from the creatures can be a bit difficult. Animated objects are probably the most straightforward way to avoid elemental-entrapment (correct me if I'm wrong). A few types of constructs specify other source of animation than elemental spirits.

That said, I really like that brown mold device. I'll have to add that to my list of useful Ex things to do with mold and slime.

I always wanted to make a shambling mound battery with a trap of thunderhead or something. Wouldn't be efficient, but it sure would be cool-looking.

Awaken construct or permanent animated objects can both work as robots, although the permanent animated objects will lack all but very rudimentary programming. Still, you could just animate a big rock, order it to jump up and down endlessly on a spring or turbine, and there is a perpetual source of kinetic energy.