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Dark Knight Renee
2007-01-28, 07:33 PM
There is a spell I've been using in my games which has no stats - not even a level. It's basically a roleplaying tool, since it isn't very useful outside of it's effects on party interactions. We've been using a 4th level slot for it, based on nothing at all, but it's coming time to decide percisely what level it IS. All I know is it's 3rd or higher, no higher than 7th (though that high would be absurd, as it's not that useful).

"Dylan's Vision/Dream Spell"
Divination
Level: ??
Casting Time: Unknown, anywhere from swift to 1 minute tops, most likely the standard 1 action.
Components: Focus, no material or XP, others unknown
Range: Close or Medium
Target: A single creature (living or undead, even a construct potentially though that hasn't come up)
Duration: Either until used or 24 hours/until used (D). The duration is unclear - it looks like the focus remains charged with the spell until it is used, but we've never had to make it last more than 24 hours.
The spell is cast on the target, and whoever has the focus in their possession when they go to sleep will have a vision of an episode from the target's past, from the target's point of view. This vision is randomly determined and although usually a relevent event to the target, isn't nesissarily relevent to the caster (aka, it's entirely up to the DM or, in some roleplaying situations, to the player).
Focus: A locket, which manifests a picture of the target upon which the spell has been cast. The picture is an effect of the spell, and disappears once the vision has been completed.

In game, it's a spell the party diviner invented. Only he has ever used it, but a couple of multiclass characters are very interested in learning it, so it's spell level is becoming nessisary. Any ideas?

The Dirge
2007-01-28, 07:37 PM
Id say 5th level because it is not that powerful, but it could be used to expose a weakness of the target or something you could blackmail the target with i.e. see the target commit a crime, see that the target is deathly allergic to honey beacuse then you could blackmail the target with that crime, or shoot honey-tipped arrows at it, doing 5x damage or something.

Munchy
2007-01-29, 12:34 AM
The fact that it does not allow a save or SR actually makes this fairly powerfull. What will be revealed is up to the DM, but presumably it will be something that at some point will be useful (I bet its not going to be the NPC enjoying a bowl of chile). Furthermore the lack of V or S component eliminates the chance of the target or someone in the surrounding area from noticing anything strange. Someone patient, with access to the target, could, over time, get very good insight into the target's actions with absolutely no chance on part of the target to prevent this or even notice it.

I would suggest adding SR, a Will save, a V or S component and then making it a 4th level spell with a casting time of 1 action. I would also specify how this interacts with certain spells such as Mindblank or Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (E.g. can you view events that happened under the effect of that spell).

Dark Knight Renee
2007-01-29, 08:05 AM
Save and SR - knew I forgot something -_-
I'm unsure about the will save, since we seem to have entirely forgotten to address that point in game. I could always rule that he was using two castings to make sure he got through the save, though... ignoreing that he only used one slot/day on the thing.

It probably does have V and S components, thats what 'unknown' means, that I haven't decided and/or specified. The V and S components have never been relevent enough to come into play, since so far Dylan has only cast the spell on his fellow party members.


Now, interactions with other spells. I'm fairly certain that while you can't cast it on someone who has an active mind blank spell, once said spell is no longer in effect it would leave no restrictions on what you can see. Same with Mordenkinen's Private Sanctum. This spell has been used to view events that happened in other universes (by which I mean crossovers, not just another plane), in particular ones where magic did not exist.
The vision is also fairly theroughly from the target's POV, not just seeing through his eyes put also his other senses and thoughts at the time. That in particular is powerful and worth noting.

Indon
2007-01-29, 09:26 AM
I'd also be inclined to say 4'th level.

Should it have the 'Mind-affecting' discriptor?

Telonius
2007-01-29, 09:29 AM
Hmm, I'd put that as a 5th level spell. Since it's essentially a DM pick, it's not as powerful as a Vision spell, which is 7th, or even Legend Lore, which is 6th. Spell Resistance and a Will save (DC=10+target's level or HD) seem reasonable. Any sort of mind shielding ability negates it; you can use False Vision to mislead it. Sounds to me like it wouldn't work on constructs, and that it would be harder to do against Psionic characters (though I don't know much about psionics).

Does the spell just deal with seeing things, or is there other sensory input? I guess it probably wouldn't fizzle on something like a Grimlock, but you might just get a blank reading.

Munchy
2007-01-29, 10:03 AM
.
The vision is also fairly theroughly from the target's POV, not just seeing through his eyes put also his other senses and thoughts at the time. That in particular is powerful and worth noting.

This raises the utility of the spell. Also, I just realized that there is no restriction on how far back the spell will go to retrieve the memories and that you have not specified how long the fragment retrieved is. Do you get a 5 minute snip or a 5 hour window?

I would suggest making the level of the spell dependent on how far back it can go and on the length of the vision retrieved. As for applicability, I would make it fairly wide. Any creature that has memory or that dreams is a legit target IMO.

E.g.

1min/lvl vision and 1 day back in time : Level 4.
1min/lvl vision and 1 day/lvl back in time : Level 5.
10min/lvl vision and 1 week/lvl back in time : Level 6.
10min/lvl vision and 1 month/lvl back in time : Level 7.
1hr/lvl vision and 1 yr/lvl back in time : Level 9. (The caster is aware when usual rest time is up, but can choose to continue viewing the vision. The caster can be awakened by other PCs without a problem)

squishycube
2007-01-29, 10:09 AM
I'd base it on the 4th level spell Dream (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dream.htm). I think gaining information is more useful than planting information. But because it is entirely limited to what the DM is willing to tell, I'd keep it at level 4.

Munchy
2007-01-29, 10:28 AM
I'd base it on the 4th level spell Dream (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dream.htm). I think gaining information is more useful than planting information. But because it is entirely limited to what the DM is willing to tell, I'd keep it at level 4.

Apples and Oranges IMO. Dream is just a messaging tool, whereas Dylan's Vision can be used to obtain all sorts on intelligence and knowledge of a creature and its associates.

Specifying the length and how far it can go back gives the DM some guidelines on how to apply the spell with some uniformity. For more powerfull effects it makes sense that the spell level should increase. Without that the DM will be tempted to provide information that she sees as usefull without regard for how much a 4th level spell should yield.

Also, it would probably be usefull for the DM to develop some guidelines on the sort and relative utility of the information retrieved, even if this is not revealed to the players.

daggaz
2007-01-29, 10:40 AM
Why not make a table for the DM to roll on which would give number and importance (and even type) of details revealed? This way the spells power is a little more defined and the spell level would be easier to call. high chance for important info, higher spell level. Constructs are mindless. I doubt this spell would work on them at all. You can give them simple instructions, but those instructions need to be simple because they must be contained within the spell itself, which is the true driving force of the construct. There are no memories to read, no emotions to play on, etc etc..

PinkysBrain
2007-01-29, 10:47 AM
If it was truely a random event and it allowed a will save I'd make it level 1 ... of course in reality it won't be a random event you see (the chances of seeing anything at all helpful from the spell would be so close to 0 the only reason to cast it would be because you were a voyeur). I think that should be made explicit in the spell, ie. roll a die and have a chance to see something relevant to you (the caster).

In which case I'd make it a third level spell, with a will save.

Gamebird
2007-01-29, 11:08 AM
Let's rewrite the spell.

"Dylan's Vision/Dream Spell"
Divination
Level: Wizard 5, Bard 5, Dream 4
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V, S, Focus
Range: Close (see text)
Target: One creature (see text)
Duration: 24 hours or until used (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

To cast this spell, the caster must have a portion of the target creature - hair, nail clippings, saliva, blood, etc. and the target creature must be in Close range and line of sight. The part of the target is placed within the focus (a locket) and the spell is cast. The locket them manifests a picture of the target and is "charged" with the spell.

The locket discharges the spell the next time the locket's carrier (which need not be the caster) goes to sleep. Elven meditation does not count as sleep for this purpose. Nor does any magically caused sleep effect, such as the Sleep or Deep Slumber spells. Creatures that do not sleep, such as constructs, undead or plant creatures, can not be affected by this spell.

Once discharged, the spell causes the locket carrier to have a vision of the target's past, from the target's point of view. The DM should roll a d100 to determine how far in the target's past the vision occurred (for someone who was 50 years old, each percent would be 6 months of life).* The event will always be relevant to the target and something easily remembered by them. The vision will last one minute per caster level. The locket carrier will perfectly remember the vision upon waking. If they did not know the locket would bestow a spell effect on them, they will think of the vision as a normal dream of unusual clarity.


* Optional text to replace or augment purple text: The DM should roll a Gather Information check for the locket carrier. The higher the check result, the more relevant the vision is to the locket carrier's interests. (1-5 irrelevant trivia, 6-10 mildly interesting trivia, 11-15 important event for the target, but not very useful for the locket carrier, 16-20 useful to the locket carrier, but not critical, 21-25 very useful to the locket carrier, something they have specifically been wanting to know, 26-30 critical information, 31+ dark secrets and the like)

Dark Knight Renee
2007-01-29, 10:53 PM
Does the spell just deal with seeing things, or is there other sensory input? I guess it probably wouldn't fizzle on something like a Grimlock, but you might just get a blank reading. Other sensory input is included, including thoughts and emotions. You can see how awkward that would be at times *cough*

The spell can see pretty far back, at least 2 years/caster level and assumed to have no limit beyond the age of the target (childhood events have been fair game, but most of the events seen have been relatively recent, and well within the past decade).
Length viewed so far is arbitrary, but based on what we’ve done so far 1 minute/caster level is probably about right for a maximum time limit. However, most visions are episodic, and cut off when a given ‘scene’ is over (subject to DM rulings).

I probably do need to work up a random table, at least for when the party thinks to use the spell on someone other than another party member. For interparty visions, it's usually whatever we feel like dropping the characters at the time.

Gamebird raises an interesting point. In the case of this spell, Elven meditation does in fact count as sleep... since the character who has used the spell (well, the locket, since she has to get Dylan to cast the spell) the most is an elf. I’ll have to make note that meditative trances count as sleep.

Also, IIRC, Warforged are not mindless. It was really them I meant, and similar sorts of beings (this may at any time include crossover material such as, say, highly advanced and self-aware machines.) However, as I said I've never had much reason to establish it one way or another... I'd need to discuss this point in depth with my players/co-DMs to decide.

Edit: Ehhehe, good point with the verbal components there. Dylan could have fooled in primary target that it was just another spell while in his normal routine (he's no caster and has little idea what all the party diviner does)... while they were camping. While staying at an inn is another matter. Verbal component, good-bye. *waves*


So… Still with a short, sucky description, because I haven’t got a lot of free time ATM:


"Dylan's Vision/Dream Spell"
Divination
Level: Wizard ?
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: S, Focus
Range: Close
Target: One creature
Duration: 24 hours or until used (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

The spell is cast on the target, and whoever has the focus in their possession when they go to sleep will have a vision of an episode from the target's past, from the target's point of view, including all senses (visual, tactile, auditory, etc, also including thoughts and emotions), assuming that the caster (or whoever uses the locket) is capable of perceiving that sense. This vision is randomly determined and although usually a relevant event to the target, isn't necessarily relevant to the caster (aka, it's entirely up to the DM or, in some roleplaying situations, to the player). Relevance table possibly forthcoming. The vision lasts for 1 minute per caster level or until the relevant scene ends (subject to DM interpretation), whichever comes first. The vision can be from any time in the target’s life, though more recent events are usually more relevant and thus more common.
For the purposes of this spell, elven meditation counts as sleep, but magically induced sleep effects do not. A creature which does not sleep (for example, elves technically fall into this category, but also most undead, plant creatures, etc) may enter a meditative trance in order to experience the vision.

Focus: A locket, which manifests a picture of the target upon which the spell has been cast. The picture is an effect of the spell, and disappears once the vision has been completed.

Wehrkind
2007-01-30, 02:44 AM
You might want to back the level down a notch if it has a voice componant, since that makes it really obvious a spell is being cast on the target, since you are very close to them.
What I mean is, much of the benefit of the spell is getting information about someone's past in order to do... something to them. It would seem you chanting loudly and intelligably while holding part of their bodily leavings within 30' of them sort of kills the "subtle" aspect of the spell. Now, if you just needed the body bit instead of being close to them physically, that would do the trick. If it were either/or, that would be useful too.

Somehow this spell just seems a little too narrow in use to be 4th level.
Super handy for a psychologist though.

Gamebird
2007-01-30, 01:22 PM
You might want to back the level down a notch if it has a voice componant, since that makes it really obvious a spell is being cast on the target, since you are very close to them.
What I mean is, much of the benefit of the spell is getting information about someone's past in order to do... something to them. It would seem you chanting loudly and intelligably while holding part of their bodily leavings within 30' of them sort of kills the "subtle" aspect of the spell. Now, if you just needed the body bit instead of being close to them physically, that would do the trick. If it were either/or, that would be useful too.

Somehow this spell just seems a little too narrow in use to be 4th level.
Super handy for a psychologist though.

A spell that discerns accurate information about the target and involves no save, no SR, and can be transferred to someone else is very powerful. Even Wish allows a Will save. Look at Legend Lore and how ambiguous the information revealed by that is. The casting time is enormous and it wipes you out. As DKR has written it, it's a DM-fiat/device, not a spell. It's not a fair spell. It's not balanced within the rules and the pre-existing spells. It's too vague.

You can either:
1) Put limits of the spell to bring it in line with existing spells. Tell the players, "Oops, I got too loose with that one, but now it's going to be run like this."
2) Don't bother putting a level on it at all, because it's a feature of your game world that the DM wants the players to be able to share bits of their backstory. It's a plot device. Plot devices don't have a level.
3) Ignore me. But know, you do so at your peril. :smallwink:

Munchy
2007-01-30, 02:08 PM
One option to bring the spell level down and avoid making it excessively powerfull is to make it a spell that requires the target to participate voluntarily. While offensive variants of this spell "might" exist (Whatever DM wants) the one the party has been using thus far is not in that category. This buys you much latitude in determining spell level, range, components, saves, effects...because you can ignore most of the elements usually placed to balance a spell.

This allows you to maintain backwards consistency with respect to spell level and effects while giving you a reason for making offensive variants higher level and more restricted in effect.

Person_Man
2007-01-30, 02:29 PM
I don't see a compelling need to build what you want into the spell rules. If a PC is a diviner or has similar class abilities, I'd have no trouble layering in some random visions and prophecies into their dreams and/or daily lives. If the PC wants to willfully do it and there's no specific spell that mirrors the effect, just have them hold a seance or something similar. As long as its used to further the plot and not to powergame, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-01-30, 10:14 PM
Munchy: That would be nice, but for just about the entire time the spell has been used, it’s been without the target’s knowledge, so unfortunately that’s out. Wouldn’t it be nice if I had thought to mention all this in the first place? -_-

Mostly, I just need to know a spell level so that we can finally know how many pages in his spellbook it uses, what level of spell slot be doesn’t have for something else, and when the amateur mages might get their hands on it - the latter being the main reason I'm finally adressing it. Powergaming is, thankfully, not an issue. :smallsmile: For a variety of roleplaying reasons (and in our games, roleplaying is everything), the spell is highly unlikely to be used to the best of it's ability, so isn't particularly dangerous with or without hard rules.

Gamebird
2007-01-31, 11:11 AM
Mostly, I just need to know a spell level so that we can finally know how many pages in his spellbook it uses,

Seven. Or one page per level (see next answer).


what level of spell slot be doesn’t have for something else,

The highest level slot applicable.


and when the amateur mages might get their hands on it - the latter being the main reason I'm finally adressing it. Powergaming is, thankfully, not an issue. :smallsmile: For a variety of roleplaying reasons (and in our games, roleplaying is everything), the spell is highly unlikely to be used to the best of it's ability, so isn't particularly dangerous with or without hard rules.

Really - you've got something here that doesn't conform to the rules. You're in just-make-stuff-up land.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-01-31, 09:59 PM
I'd rather MAKE it conform to the rules than just say "the normal rules of magic, aka the laws of the D&D universe, don't apply to this spell." Plot device or no, in-game it's a spell, and should be treated like one. I don't want any more advice that translates to "Don't bother putting a level on it at all, because it's a feature of your game world that the DM wants the players to be able to share bits of their backstory. It's a plot device. Plot devices don't have a level," because in my game they do. No offence, but in my games I aim for internal consistancy, and while that limits how much I can chance about what's already been established, it also means I have to treat it like a normal spell - or come up with a very good reason for why it breaks the rules and no one has noticed.


So far, I have 4th or 5th level, either of which sounds reasonable. Upon consideration, 6th level is the upper limit I'll accept, because there is just no way I can recon that Dylan has been using his 7th level slots on this thing.

I may change my mind about the Will Save, because now that I have time to look through his char sheet he has a few bonuses I forgot about, which makes the save high enough that adding a Will save might not cause any retcon headaches. Still on the fence about it, could go either way.

Kyrsis
2007-01-31, 10:26 PM
I'd say it'd be about 5th level (as it seems most say). Putting in some kind of chart to determine randomly how far back is also a good idea.
I would disagree with having to have something of the target, only because if the target has to have the locket on them, that in itself can be quite difficult. Especially if the caster is primarily a caster and it's attempted in combat or a sneaky situation.
Using it on an enemy has other drawbacks that would lead me to say 5th level (or maybe 4) - what if they notice the locket and can glean what it's for, or other potential hazards the caster wouldn't know about until he didn't have his vision.
I would also say yes to SR and a will save when used on an enemy.
Good luck with this. Unfortunately, divination is my weak point when it comes to spell knowledge, so sorry if I really didn't help...

Dark Knight Renee
2007-02-01, 07:34 AM
Youch. It would be mighty troublesome to put the locket on the target, especially repeatedly (which is the only way to get useful information unless you're really, really lucky or just fishing for a basic impression). Fortunately, the caster or the intended recipient of the vision wears the locket, not the target. Further good news is that since it's a unique spell created by Dylan, the locket itself looks like an ordinary peice of jewelry to anyone who doesn't know about it (unless it's got the spell on it and someone detects magic, of course).

I have issues with divinations myself, but at this point they basically run the game. Unless I design my plots so that they can only be solved with divinations, they will be ruined by those same divinations. *shrug* By comparison, Dylan's spell is less troublesome (for me at least).

Gamebird
2007-02-01, 11:23 AM
Your choices are:
1) you said not to mention it.

2) Change the spell from how you've been running it, to weaken it and put it in line with existing spells. Add limiting factors to it (only affects humanoids, or only things with INT 10 or more, etc.) Add a save or SR. Require touching of the target, or having a part of them. Require them to have to know the target's name (some "true name" flavor, or at least their common name). Long casting time maybe. Obvious casting process. Anything that quasi-justifies why a spell this far-reaching (and clearly more powerful than Legend Lore, a 6th level spell) is lower level. Putting in a chart or system for determining the vision helps as well, because it gives the DM a guideline for how often the spell is actually useful. If the system is rigged so the spell grants a "useful" vision only every 20th time, then that would make it a lower level spell. Without such a chart, a DM is prone to make every vision pertinent and potentially useful, because a) you don't want to disappoint your players and b) few DMs work out the 95% of an NPC's time that's boring or inconsequential.

3) Various other suggestions that aren't feasible, given an interest in consistency.

Rockphed
2007-02-01, 02:07 PM
Can this spell target someone who is dead, I.E. if you are near their grave, can you target them? I know you may not have decided this, but if Dylan gets really creative, he might try, or atleast want to know how if he could.

The spell should prabably be a 5th level wizard spell. Randomized generation of events is a must, all of which are important to the target, but only on a successful wisdom check will they be what the dreamer is looking for. The DC should probably be about 25, with a further 1d% roll on a failure where 00-05 give various pertinant events such as marriages, deaths, imprisonments, and other such events. If the dreamer is unaware that the locket bestows a vision, a DC 20 wisdom check would probably alert them to that, but they can't actively seek something.

There should probably be a chance of being disturbed by what you see, especially if the target is of the other gender. I can just see Dylan casting this spell on his wife and forgetting to take off the locket when he goes to sleep and seeing her thinking about some other man, or even himself.:eek:

I think the DC for the will save should go up depending on how much is known about the target. For instance, you get a +2 on the DC if you know their common name, and +10 if you know their true name. Likewise, on the finding what you want check, you should get +1 if you know their name, and +5 if you know their true name. Maybe the "true name" thing is a bit much, as I can't really define it.

And this spell might be as powerful as legend lore, except that it only works if you are in close proximity, no finding out about long dead heroes or the like. Or finding the purpose of the altar you just found at the bottom of the giant dungeon. Of course, casting it at the lich in the hopes of finding where he hid his phylactery is probably going to not work for the first few times, but finding a lich's phylactery wouldn't be a good use of lengend lore anyway. I could be wrong, but I hope this helps.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-02-01, 05:56 PM
I'll eventually create a table, but right now I'm just going to keep handling it on the fly, since that works for me. When the characters try to get creative, then I'll try my hand at the table.

Of the limiting factors suggested, I'm considering a save, it's got SR, and the requirement of knowing the target's name/true name (is the concept of true name magic explained anywhere?) could actually be a good idea. I'd never have thought of that.
For the others:
Type limit is somewhat iffy, since the spell is already established to function on both humanoids and undead. Sadly, undead are lacking in subtypes such as Augmented Humanoid, or there would be no problem. An Int limit, while not established, is kinda stupid. I'd think the spell should work on dumb people just as well as on smart ones, and limiting it to 3+ Int is not a valid limiting factor.


Rockphed: Those are actually good questions. First one, I have no idea. It never occured to me, I'll have to talk that one over with my players. However, since whatever event killed the corpse is one of the most relevent to that individual, it would be rather likely to reveal that event within the first few tries, if not the very first time it was used (repending on how interesting a life he/she led...).

No wisdom checks to deliberately find information. To find what you're looking for, you pretty much have to use the spell repeatedly, and it better be something relevent to the target unless you want to cast it a hundred times or more (you're much less likely to get the same vision a second time, which allows such fishing to actually work).
As for a check to determine if an unknowing user notices that they're having a vision, hmm. DC 20 seems a bit steep, considering the level of realism involved... It's only happened once, but the character in question did not have a particularly high wisdom score - though hers is twice Dylan's, because the wizard himself has Wis 6. Laugh at the dweep now.


Ah, someone has commented on the disturbing factor :smallbiggrin: I refuse to use mechanics for this sort of thing, but it's not been overlooked. When he first tested the spell on his comrads, poor Dylan saw a lot he wished he hadn't. Now, Dylan isn't married and doesn't even have a girlfriend, but he mostly casts it for the benefit of the elf lady... who uses it to learn more about her somewhat crazy (to say the least) boyfriend. And if that isn't bad enough, she had to wade through innumerable scenes of torture and heartbreak. As well, even after using the spell for a year in-game (fishing for general information rather than specifics) she was quite displeased with the manner in which she had to learn that he had cheated on her... (as for why she didn't pick it up earlier, there was magical compulsion involved, though the characters can only guess at that). Yes, angst and unpleasentness runs high in my game.