Druid and Demons

[Thoa]

Hi Forum!
So, I am playing a Elf Druid in a friends roleplay heavy 3.5 Campaign.
We are not very fond of the rules, although we play for a long time.
We also have a Halfling Rogue and (since last seccion [How is this spelled?]) a Half-Dragon Fighter.

My problem is, as i found out last game, that we fight Demons on a regular basis and i am not suited for that.

More precise description of last fight:


We are all ECL 9.

We were in a fight with a Vrock (in the midst of an demon invasion) and while the other two were able to kill it in 4 rounds my character stood aside and could not contribute effectively, aside from healing the rogue.
I didn´t wanted to use my last wild shape use for the day and didn´t wanted to use my prepared Flame strike which would have allerted more Vrocks. Also my 5th level spells were off limits because i knew, there would be a harder fight ahead.
So i hit it with my +1 Icy Burst Scimitar and my Dm told me i should stop these ineffective attacks. Which was a little depressing.
The Vrock btw did not use his special attacks.


My Druid is level 9 and has the following:
Yes, I know, it is not the optimal druid lacking Spell Focus and Augment Summoning


Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 20
Cha: 10

Feats:
Improved Initiative
Combat Casting
Natural Spell
Companion Spellbound

Items:
Smimitar +1 Icy Burst
Leather Armor +2 Wild
Heavy Wooden Shield +1
Amulet of fire resistance (5)
Boots of Elvenkind
Ring of Protection +2
Lonbow Masterwork
Approximately 3000 Gold

Animal Companion:
Was just killed in the previous fight against a Dire Tiger. (I prepared the wrong spells for that)
Usually a Riding Dog, but i am thinking about an Eagle or something flying.
I am also trying to get barding for it.


Question is:
How could i be more suited to figth demons?

I am willing to sell my equipment and maybe can convince my Dm to let me retrain some stuff.
I can use all Books, but have to convince my DM to everything which is not PHB 1, MM 1 and DMG 1. From these everything is allowed. Without question.
In this World no dinosaurs exist.

I normally like the versatility of the Druid and that he can react to nearly everything i want him to, but in the last seccion I was sitting aside, cruncing numers and still did nothing to help the others. Especially bad for me, because they just hit things with things without considering much of anything.
Could there be a better Combat option against demons as the Polar Bear at level 9?

[Killer Angel]

Yes, I know, it is not the optimal druid lacking Spell Focus and Augment Summoning


Before suggestions, I had to ask why.
You are a caster, that converts your prepared spells in summons. Basically, your core chassis suggests to improve summoning... (even if you can still do nice things without it)



didn´t wanted to use my prepared Flame strike which would have allerted more Vrocks.

FOr a starter, you should prepare different spells.
Spell damage is usually weaker than other options, and clerical spell damage, is weaker than arcane's.

[Segev]

You want to cast Summon Nature's Ally IV (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyIV.htm) (for which, as a druid, you can spontaneously swap out any 4th level spell) and Align Fang (http://dndtools.eu/spells/spell-compendium--86/align-fang--3804/). Summon a Brown Bear and align its natural weapons to "good." There is also Mass Align Fang, which is 3rd level and affects multiple targets. You could use that if you chose to summon 1d3 creatures from the Summon Nature's Ally III list.

In fact, I would suggest that: summon 3 dire wolves; they have +11 to hit (just like the brown bear) and do 1d8+10 damage (versus the bear's 2 1d8+8 with lower to-hit and 2d6+8 at +11). Even without align fang, the +10 guarantees overcoming the Vrock's DR. With align fang, they pierce the DR completely.

3 attacks at +11 to hit is an average of 3 hits every two rounds against a Vrock's AC.

Have you considered Reincarnate (also a 4th level druid spell) on your animal companion to get him back more quickly? No guarantee on what he'll come back as, of course, but you could probably talk your DM into using the 3.0 table (which had a lot more animals on it), or you could have a temporary ally, at the least, in whatever form he does return as. He won't be bonded as your companion anymore, but...hopefully he still likes you?

[Sith_Happens]

Mostly it's a matter of spell selection. Outsiders generally have strong saves all-around and often fly and/or teleport, but besides that they're susceptible to most of the same things you'd use on, say, a Humanoid. If nothing else, SNA is just as much your friend here as it is any other time, even without Augment.

I'd do a quick check to see if Druids get any specific anti-fiend spells, but I'm in the middle of some last-minute homework.

[Brookshw]

(since last seccion [How is this spelled?])

Since you asked, session.

Aside from that (and I don't know the druid spell list very well off hand) there's always holy evil outsider bane weapons. I believe you get dismissal don't you? Most of your battlefield control options aren't great against flight and teleportation, but they can get the enemy to waste it's actions so that's still a plus.

Don't forget celestial creatures get smite evil, so if you can summon some it's a bit of a (rather insignificant perhaps) boost.

[Thoa]

Thank you for all the answers. I am always impressed how quick this forum is.


Before suggestions, I had to ask why.
You are a caster, that converts your prepared spells in summons. Basically, your core chassis suggests to improve summoning... (even if you can still do nice things without it)



FOr a starter, you should prepare different spells.
Spell damage is usually weaker than other options, and clerical spell damage, is weaker than arcane's.

I don´t really know why I abandoned the summoning direction. Maybe because the +4 to 2 stats of my summons didn´t seemed that great for 2 Feats. And i had to do extra bookkeeping because of that. I rarely used SNA in my first few levels.

The Flame Strike was my only Burst spell. I think it might be handy to have one around.

Thank you Segev for the math on SNA, i will remeber that the next time we meet a demon.
And also for the Spell Align Fang. didn´t knew that one before. Solves the most of my problems.
Reincarnate was a bit costy for my companion, and as i never knew the 3.0 table i never thought of it. (I think my Dm would rule a animal would not accept the ressurection)

Thank you Brookshw for the spelling, makes sense.
Unfortunately Dismissal is not a Druid spell.
Sadly SNA is not with celestial Creatures, but i forgot about the unicorn and the Magic Circle against Evil it has.
I will maybe try to get a blessed Weapon.

Thank you all!

[Segev]

Also worth noting: if you can get an Enlarge Spell metamagic rod, it interacts humorously with SNAs cast to call creatures from the lists 2 levels or more below the current one. 1d4+1 becomes 1.5x(1d4)+1, going from 2-5 creatures (distribution {2,3,4,5}) to 2-7 creatures (distribution {2,4,5,7}).

You may also wish, if you make significant use of SNA's mass summoning capability, Mass Align Fang and Mass Magic Fang. The latter is only +1 enhancement to hit and damage on their primary weapons, but +1 to hit and damage on 2-7 creatures will, provided they are not missing a lot due to too-low attack bonuses, be more overall damage added than one creature getting +2 or +3 to hit and damage on one of its attacks.

And, since these are summons that last for 10 rounds or so only, the minute duration on Mass Magic Fang will be sufficient, whereas Greater Magic Fang's hours of duration will be largely wasted on anything but yourself (when wild shaped) or your animal companion (in fact, use it on both of you through Share Spells).

And do get an animal companion again soon.

[Darrin]

So you need something that does [force] or [sonic] damage and as SR: No. Hmmmm. I'm not coming up with anything decent. Yeesh, vrocks are pretty tough. Maybe haboob (Sandstorm)? Untyped damage, SR: No.

I'd try filling some 2nd level spell slots with mass snake's swiftness. If the rest of your party can dish out the demonsmashing, then spend your turn making them better at it.

[Segev]

Summons buffed to pierce the DR are good enough, probably. If you really want damage...

Look into Extract Water Elemental. IT does dehydration damage to a single target (and gets you a water elemental if it kills it). I think it's on the druid list.

[HammeredWharf]

Why weren't you already in wild shape? At lvl 9, you shouldn't spend any time in the human form in a dungeon. If you want a good flying animal companions, get a Dire Eagle from Races of Stone. Give it IUS and Improved Grapple, a simple buff like Enrage Animal and it'll be able to grapple with a Vrock just fine.

[eggynack]

My Druid is level 9 and has the following:
Yes, I know, it is not the optimal druid lacking Spell Focus and Augment Summoning

I don't think it's that big a deal. Augment summoning is really only the optimal choice in a game with limited book access, and it can get overwhelmed by other options when you have broad access. Natural spell is obviously great, and companion spellbond is a solid choice, though I would probably have ditched the other two. The 9th level feat is a pretty important one, as it's the first level where you would want to take exalted wild shape or rashemi elemental summoning. If you do end up retraining, definitely retrain combat casting first, and maybe trade improved initiative later. You can do better. Ultimately though, while druid builds can be optimized to great effect, most of a druid's power comes from day to day decision making.

So you need something that does [force] or [sonic] damage and as SR: No. Hmmmm. I'm not coming up with anything decent. Yeesh, vrocks are pretty tough. Maybe haboob (Sandstorm)? Untyped damage, SR: No.
Lessee. There's splinterbolt (SpC, 203), blast of sand (Sand, 112), murderous mist (SpC, 145), sudden stalagmite (SpC, 213), call avalanche (Frost, 90), and ice flowers (SpC, 119, only half is not-cold). Also worthy of note are hammer of righteousness (BoED, 100), which is SR: yes, but deals force damage and is extra good against evil targets, and control winds, which isn't quite blasting, but is both SR: no and awesome.

Anyways, with that out of the way, or perhaps with that in mind, I should note that the most important thing, above all else, is spell choice. If you would like, I could always PM over the handbook I've been working on, which, though incomplete, has a ton of spell stuff.

[Darrin]

Lessee. There's splinterbolt (SpC, 203), blast of sand (Sand, 112), murderous mist (SpC, 145), sudden stalagmite (SpC, 213), call avalanche (Frost, 90), and ice flowers (SpC, 119, only half is not-cold).


DR 10/good applies to splinterbolt, which knocks the average damage per bolt down to 4. I was mostly looking for 2nd/3rd level spells, as the OP was saving his higher-level stuff for later. Blast of sand and sudden stalagmite look good at 1d6/CL, but Ref half kinda bites. Actually, every spell you suggested other than splinterbolt is Ref half.

Another 2nd level spell I considered, blinding spittle might be worth rolling the dice on SR.



Also worthy of note are hammer of righteousness (BoED, 100), which is SR: yes, but deals force damage and is extra good against evil targets, and control winds, which isn't quite blasting, but is both SR: no and awesome.


I looked at the hammer, and passed on it because of the SR. But CL 9 vs SR 17 is a 65% chance of success.

[eggynack]

DR 10/good applies to splinterbolt, which knocks the average damage per bolt down to 4. I was mostly looking for 2nd/3rd level spells, as the OP was saving his higher-level stuff for later. Blast of sand and sudden stalagmite look good at 1d6/CL, but Ref half kinda bites. Actually, every spell you suggested other than splinterbolt is Ref half.
Those are true things, though it's notable that demon reflex saves aren't the best, and it is apparent that none of them have evasion, so those sorts of spells aren't as bad here as they would ordinarily be. I don't know how far you can get with that many specifications.


Another 2nd level spell I considered, blinding spittle might be worth rolling the dice on SR.
Out of spells that have SR, I'd probably go with stuff that hits multiple times. Maybe something like vortex of teeth (SpC, 232) would be good.

[Rubik]

Also worth noting: if you can get an Enlarge Spell metamagic rod, it interacts humorously with SNAs cast to call creatures from the lists 2 levels or more below the current one. 1d4+1 becomes 1.5x(1d4)+1, going from 2-5 creatures (distribution {2,3,4,5}) to 2-7 creatures (distribution {2,4,5,7}).Actually, Enlarge Empower is [1d4+1]x1.5, since the variable portion of the spell is [1d4+1] (2-5).

[Segev]

Actually, Enlarge is [1d4+1]x1.5, since the variable portion of the spell is [1d4+1] (2-5).

I am not sure that the "+1" counts as part of the "variable," but I'm not going to argue strenuously. I was just being conservative.

If we assume that it counts, then 1.5x(1d4+1) yields {3, 4, 6, 7} instead of {2,4,5,7}. Better or equivalent at all points, of course, so definitely preferable (and guarantees that the Enlarging results in at least a little bit of benefit by making the minimum 3 instead of 2).

[Rubik]

Sorry, I meant Empower Spell. Wasn't thinking.

[Segev]

Sorry, I meant Empower Spell. Wasn't thinking.

That's alright, that's what I meant, too, and I said it wrong, too. But we understood each other!

[Rubik]

That's alright, that's what I meant, too, and I said it wrong, too. But we understood each other!Right.

Anyway, the Core rulebooks actually list the interaction of Magic Missile with Empower Spell, and the entire (1d4+1) is multiplied.

[Segev]

Cool. Even better, then!