Assassin stance

[maniacalmojo]

I keep hearing people say dip 1 into swordsage in order to get assassin stance for 2d6 damage but when i look at the actual book it appears to be a 3rd level stance and you need to be at least 5th level to get that stance. Explain?

[CoffeeIncluded]

I keep hearing people say dip 1 into swordsage in order to get assassin stance for 2d6 damage but when i look at the actual book it appears to be a 3rd level stance and you need to be at least 5th level to get that stance. Explain?

Non-ToB class levels can count for initiator levels, they just count for half as much. So if you're, say, an 8th level rogue and on your 9th level you dip swordsage, then if you take any shadow hand maneuver your initiator levels qualify you for 3rd level maneuvers, just enough for Assassin's Stance.

[Garagos]

Non-initiator classes count as a 1/2 initiator level for determining max level manuevers and stances. So if you dip Swordsage1 at a later level, your other classes help you qualify for the higher level stance.

I don't have the books in front of me right now but say you were already a 8th level Rogue and as your 9th level, you took Swordsage. You would now be considered a 5th level Initiator, 1 for swordsage and 4 for rogue.

Edit: Swordsaged on a swordsage post

[Socratov]

well, that depends on when you take the dip. The level needed for Assassin's stance is 5th initiatior level, which is 1*sum(initiator class levels)+0.5*sum(other classlevels), So if you have 8 non-initiator levels (currently initiator level 4) and you take a 1 lvl dip in Sowrdsage you get initiator level 5, allowing you to take Assassin's Stance (if you already have the manuever(s) required).

Edit: Damnit, doubly swordsaged on a a swordsage post

[Akal Saris]

(I expect to be swordsaged by the time I finish this post)

Levels in other class count for 1/2 of your initiator (ToB) level for maneuvers and stances. So a rogue 8/swordsage 1 has an effective initiator level of 5.

Swordsage specifically says that you get "a 1st level stance" from your 1st level in swordsage. So even if you have a full effective initiator level of 5, you need to either dip 2 levels in swordsage to get a second stance, or take the Martial Stance feat.

For example, a rogue 8/swordsage 1 might take the feats:
1: Two-weapon fighting
3: Weapon Finesse (Dagger)
6: Craven
9: Martial stance (assassin's stance)

Alternatively, a Rogue 12 has an effective IL of 6, and might take the feats:
1: Two-weapon fighting
3: Weapon Finesse (Dagger)
6: Craven
9: Martial study: Cloak of Deception
12: Martial stance (assassin's stance)

[OldTrees1]

Classes from the Tome of Battle count half your levels in other classes.

So a Fighter 8 / Swordsage 1 can select 3rd level maneuvers provided they meet the prerequisites.

Now while there are several interpretations, the section about stances implies to me that the first stance per ToB class must be a 1st level stance. However Swordsages get a non level specific stance at 2nd level.

So a Fighter 4 / Swordsage 1 / Fighter 2 / Swordsage 1 would be able to pick up 2nd level maneuvers at the first dip (along with a 1st level stance) and would get 3rd level maneuvers at the second dip (along with a 3rd level stance like Assassin's Stance)

[maniacalmojo]

so minimum not using initiator classess you would have to be at least level 8?

[DeltaEmil]

No, level 10, because 10 noninitiator level /2=5 initiator level to be eligible for choosing 3rd-level maneuvers and stances (assuming the other prerequisites have been fulfilled).

[prufock]

Non-initiator class 6/swordsage 2 is the minimum SS dip to get assassin's stance. Obviously you can get it earlier with more SS levels than non-initiator levels. SS 5 is the earliest and easiest. If you're willing to take Martial Stance as your sixth-level feat, you can get it at non-initiator class 2/SS 4 as well.

[maniacalmojo]

i want maximized sneak attack damage basically. Starting level 5 (well six but i am going dark template on whisper gnome)

[Doc_Maynot]

Maximized SA you say? Why not see if you can grab some generic classes?

[Rubik]

i want maximized sneak attack damage basically. Starting level 5 (well six but i am going dark template on whisper gnome)Rogue/thug fighter/spellthief/swordsage/ronin/assassin/slayer of domiel/nightsong enforcer/invisible blade/factotum with the Craven feat?

[maniacalmojo]

Similar. Is their a feat to gain full movement while sneaking?

[SPoilaaja]

A good way to get better than full rogue sneak attack progression is to start of with feat rogue / Thug sneak attack fighter, swashbuckler 2. Take swordsage dip

Feat rogue 1/Sneak attack thug 3/Swashbuckler 2/Feat rogue 2/Swordsage 1/Feat rogue 11

pick daring outlaw at 6 and Martial stance (Assassin's stance) at 9

[Talderas]

No, level 10, because 10 noninitiator level /2=5 initiator level to be eligible for choosing 3rd-level maneuvers and stances (assuming the other prerequisites have been fulfilled).

It's level 8. 8 levels give you +4 initiator level. At 9th level you take swordsage which raises your initiator level to 5 and qualifies you.

[Vedhin]

Swordsage specifically says that you get "a 1st level stance" from your 1st level in swordsage. So even if you have a full effective initiator level of 5, you need to either dip 2 levels in swordsage to get a second stance, or take the Martial Stance feat.

Incorrect. It says "You begin play with knowledge of one 1st level stance..."

Wizard says "A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice."

"Begin play" refers to beginning play, as a 1st level character. Characters at higher levels are not beginning play (or are at least assumed to have been around for a time).

[SPoilaaja]

They are written that way since base classes are usually your first level class. It does not have a clause that if you qualify for higher level stances at level 1 not is it worded in the same way as learning maneuvers, where it is worded without a level limit.

Conclusion: Maneuvers and stances are worded differently, thus obtaining them at level 1 works differently. Stances = level 1. Maneuvers = any that you qualify for


EDIT: and as for the "begin play" clause. When you dip into a wizard or swordsage after level 1, you do not begin play, and thus you wouldn't gain any maneuvers or spells with your reasoning.

[prufock]

Wizard says "A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice."

Not seeing any distinction here. You take a 1-level dip later in your career, this is what you get. You take a 1-level dip in SS later in your career, 1st level stance is what you get.


i want maximized sneak attack damage basically. Starting level 5 (well six but i am going dark template on whisper gnome)
Factotum 5 with as many Fonts of Inspiration as you can take. With the choices you already have made, that's 7 IPs = +7d6 sneak attack out of the gate at level 5. Of course it's only 1/encounter. At level 20 I had my "one-hit wonder" dealing 98d6+8 sneak attack 1/encounter including items.

If you're looking for a more "every hit" sneak attack build, I think I tapped out at around 60d6+28. I'd have to look it up.

[Rijan_Sai]

They are written that way since base classes are usually your first level class. It does not have a clause that if you qualify for higher level stances at level 1 not is it worded in the same way as learning maneuvers, where it is worded without a level limit.

Conclusion: Maneuvers and stances are worded differently, thus obtaining them at level 1 works differently. Stances = level 1. Maneuvers = any that you qualify for


EDIT: and as for the "begin play" clause. When you dip into a wizard or swordsage after level 1, you do not begin play, and thus you wouldn't gain any maneuvers or spells with your reasoning.

*Minor Rant*
It's funny* how a non-initiator (i.e. Fighter/Rogue/etc.) can take 2 feats (say, Martial Study at 6, Martial Stance at 10 (Fighter Bonus) or 12 (everyone else)) and get Assasin's Stance, but a Full initiator (let's use Crusader8/SS1), one that knows the ins and out of maneuvers, would have to take one more level of SS or the M. Stance feat to learn it...

I say, if it takes a two-level dip to learn higher-then-first-level stances, it should require taking M. Stance at least twice to learn the same...or realize that Vedhin is correct, and the book assumes that "begins play" refers to a level 1 character, just like every other base class in the game.

*By "funny," I mean completely not funny in a way that makes me want to get out my fish and start slapping people...:smallmad:

Edit: Basically, what my TL;DR is is why should a Feat that basically grants a class feature be able to get you something that taking a full level in the class cannot?

[SPoilaaja]

Tome of battle was written so late in 3.5 lifetime, that the developers had already learned their lessons with wording. How things should be is different from how things are by RAW.

[Vedhin]

EDIT: and as for the "begin play" clause. When you dip into a wizard or swordsage after level 1, you do not begin play, and thus you wouldn't gain any maneuvers or spells with your reasoning.

This is sort of my point. The way I read things, "begins play" means exactly that. Which is why I support saying "no, that's stupid" and letting things go by RAI. Speaking of which, 1st level only giving 1st level stances does not mesh with the multiclass-friendly nature of ToB.

[SPoilaaja]

It meshes greatly with the multiclass nature of ToB, since you get maneuvers from higher levels. Maneuvers and stances are part of the same class, gained at the same time on the first level yet they decided to word them differently. Maneuvers: no level limitation. Stances: level 1 is explicitly mentioned.

[Vedhin]

It meshes greatly with the multiclass nature of ToB, since you get maneuvers from higher levels. Maneuvers and stances are part of the same class, gained at the same time on the first level yet they decided to word them differently. Maneuvers: no level limitation. Stances: level 1 is explicitly mentioned.

In that case, I think we should just agree we have two irreconcilable ways of viewing this, and avoid a protracted and ineffectual argument.

[Mnemnosyne]

That 1st level stance thing is irrelevant if you're not taking swordsage as your first character level. This is obvious because any interpretation that requires you to begin play with the stance even if you don't take your first swordsage level until long after you began playing quickly becomes nonsensical.

If the scenario is a game where the players are starting at 1st level, and someone starts as a rogue, for example, sticking with single-classed rogue until 8th level, then takes 1 level of swordsage at 9th, the situation suddenly becomes one where they retroactively must have had a 1st level stance ever since they began playing, even though they did not have any levels of swordsage at the time, and indeed, this factor is predicated upon future actions that had yet to take place.

The obvious conclusion is that unless you can travel back in time to make it so you began play with the stance, the clause cannot possibly take effect.

[Fax Celestis]

Tome of battle was written so late in 3.5 lifetime, that the developers should have but definitely hadn't already learned their lessons with wording. How things should be is different from how things are by RAW.

FTFY

white text of postingness +1

[Rubik]

FTFYYeah. Just look at what they did to that poor, so-called "errata."

[Rijan_Sai]

Yeah. Just look at what they did to that poor, so-called "errata."

Which is why I recommend this(v) one (in sig.) Not perfect, but far better then Wizard's...flop

[KillianHawkeye]

(I expect to be swordsaged by the time I finish this post)

Levels in other class count for 1/2 of your initiator (ToB) level for maneuvers and stances. So a rogue 8/swordsage 1 has an effective initiator level of 5.

Swordsage specifically says that you get "a 1st level stance" from your 1st level in swordsage. So even if you have a full effective initiator level of 5, you need to either dip 2 levels in swordsage to get a second stance, or take the Martial Stance feat.

For example, a rogue 8/swordsage 1 might take the feats:
1: Two-weapon fighting
3: Weapon Finesse (Dagger)
6: Craven
9: Martial stance (assassin's stance)

Alternatively, a Rogue 12 has an effective IL of 6, and might take the feats:
1: Two-weapon fighting
3: Weapon Finesse (Dagger)
6: Craven
9: Martial study: Cloak of Deception
12: Martial stance (assassin's stance)

I have nothing to contribute to this thread. I just wanted to point out that in 3.5 you don't need to select a specific weapon for the Weapon Finesse feat. It applies to all light weapons as well as those specifically designated as finessable (rapier, spiked chain, etc.).

[Garagos]

Similar. Is their a feat to gain full movement while sneaking?

I assume you mean while using Hide and/or Move Silently? The feat you want is Swift and Silent, but it must be taken at 1st level. Its from Players Guide to Faerun.

[OldTrees1]

Yeah. Just look at what they did to that poor, so-called "errata."

Painful memories.
Why WotC? Why? :smallfurious:

[Talionis]

Possibly helpful information: You don't need to dip Swordsage to pick up Assassin Stance. If available in your campaign, you can just buy "Gloves of Shadow Hand" from the Back of the Tome of Battle to give you access to Assassin Stance. Stances are maneuvers. Assassin Stance doesn't have a prerequisite if I remember correctly. So you just need to be Level 10 non-initiator.

[Vertharrad]

Wrong Stances are not Maneuvers.

[Samalpetey]

Or to further confuse matters, in some parts of ToB they're listed as manuevers, in some they aren't. Putting them in items though, I highly doubt is RaI

[Rijan_Sai]

Page 149 - Crown of White Ravens [Addition]
After the last sentence in the Effect paragraph, add "Stances
cannot be contained in this item. The maneuver is added to
your list of maneuvers known for the purposes of readying
maneuvers, but not meeting prerequisites of feats, prestige
classes, magic items, maneuvers, or any other effect that
requires maneuvers known. The maneuver must be readied
as normal. You must meet all requirements for the maneuver
in order to benefit from this item, including having a high
enough initiator level to actually learn the maneuver."

If you attempt combine two or more Crowns into the same
item (see the Dungeon Master's Guide, page 282), each
crown involved must be of a different type (Novice, Scholar,
Master), and must contain a different maneuver in each
instance. You cannot, for example, combine three Crowns that
each contain the Leading the Attack strike, but you could
combine three crowns that contain Leading the Attack, White
Raven Tactics, and White Raven Hammer.

The above rules apply to the variants of the Crown of White
Ravens.

You know, since I'm hawking it anyway:smallamused: