Magic + Technology = ?

[Rubik]

Many times in fiction, magic and technology tends to be an explosive combination, such as in The Dresden Files and the Harry Potter series. To my knowledge, D&D magic doesn't react this way to electronic equipment.

Are there any passages in the books that I'm not aware of which suggest that magic is antithetical to the existence of tech, such as computers and electrical wiring? How about suggestions that they DON'T cause problems together?

In short, is magitech explicitly feasible, according to the rules?

[shylocke]

In the D20 SRD books there are classes that meld magic and tech. But its a slightly different system than DND, fairly easy to change it over though. According to it, magic and tech mesh perfectly. You can cast a spell that heals you when you stick a a fork into a electrical socket.

[Forrestfire]

Well, in D&D 3.5 at least, a lot of magic is technology. Wizards do magic by figuring out how it works, and it works the same way each time for a certain combination of formulas, ingredients, and the like. Artificers are similar.

Magitech exists, as well. Some golems, warforged, a lot of grafts...

[shylocke]

Well, in D&D 3.5 at least, a lot of magic is technology. Wizards do magic by figuring out how it works, and it works the same way each time for a certain combination of formulas, ingredients, and the like. Artificers are similar.

Magitech exists, as well. Some golems, warforged, a lot of grafts...

This is true.

[BWR]

Explicitly according to the rules - very little on the subject, at least in 3.x.
In BECMI there was no problem per se with this. Time travelling cyborg clones from the future could use technological devices with impunity. After the crashed spaceship blew up Blackmoor, the Immortals cursed what was left (the partially exploded power core) to slowly drain all magic from the world. The Tale of the Comet setting for 2e had no intrinsic problems show up between the two. Other than obvious things like how they interact - Lightning Bolts are bad for robots, mind affecting spells don't affect robots, blasters deal fire damage etc.

As for 3.x, the third party setting Dragonstar has a number of fun ideas.
Apart from the obvious like magic guns, dermpatches were one of my favorites: A large patch stuck on your skin like a nicotine patch, but that contained doses of potions. Up to 10 potions, swift action to activate.
Spellware: magitech cybernetic enhancements. Basically permanent personal magic items that didn't conflict with the regular magic item slots and rarely with eachother so you could stack a lot of stuff on you.
Scrollware: magical scrolls in digital format: keep them all on your iPad, send them to someone else or store them in the cloud for use.
Spells that allow you to remotely turn on/off or hack computers, etc.
Starships are required to use starcasters - oversized teleporters to get them from place to place (technological FTL travel is impossible), or astral drives - shifting the ships into the Astral plane to save money.
All that and more.

[CIDE]

Using online supplements that merge 3.X and d20 Modern/Future there's a rather decent merger. Several classes cast their magic through technology and even at certain points (Progress levels 8 and 9) you can build psitech or magitech items respectively. There's even articles to bring D&D into d20 Modern/Future and vice verse. So really it's DM discretion since not everything in d20 M/F fits well into D&D mechanics-wise.

That said a Smart Hero build in a progress level 8/9 setting could put any Artificer to shame using RAW since he can build anything the Artificer can for less money invested but he can also include tech stuff the Artificer can't touch. Stuff that anti-magic fields and dysjunction spells and everything else won't touch.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless you go outside of the D&D 3.X system, there are -no- rules regarding the interaction of magic and technology. At all.

I believe the situation with PF is similar, though I'm not familiar enough to say that with certainty.



...... well........ The lantan artificer from magic of faerun might count. Members of that PrC can make non-magical devices that mimic spell effects, including abjurations IIRC, so there's that.

[Magesmiley]

Dragonstar for 3.5 and the Blackmoor adventures for BECMI were previously mentioned as allowing tech and magic to mix. Tale of the Comet for 2nd edition and Expedition to the Barrier Peaks for 1st edition are two more adventures that come to mind which mix tech and magic.

[Slipperychicken]

Well, in D&D 3.5 at least, a lot of magic is technology.

Agreed. It's hard to classify magic items as anything but technology.

Websters' definition of technology seems compatible with magic:


a: the practical application of knowledge, especially in a particular area

b: a capability given by the practical application of knowledge <a car's fuel-saving technology>

c. a manner of accomplishing a task especially using technical processes, methods, or knowledge

[Yogibear41]

Magic + Technology = Eberron :smallcool:

[Rubik]

Magic + Technology = Eberron :smallcool:That's more Eberron tech = magical mass production. I know "sufficiently advanced science," etc, but it's not exactly the same thing. Magically-produced magitech is a bit different than mundane tech interacting with magic that it's not meant to.

[holywhippet]

Magic + Technology = Eberron :smallcool:

Krynn has a certain amount of technology due to the gnomes. Of course their technology tends to be more on the lines of mad science and is renowned as being highly unstable/untrustworthy.

Generally it isn't an issue in D&D as most worlds are meant to resemble Europe on Earth somewhere around the dark ages.

BTW, I can't think of where in Harry Potter magic and technology don't like each other. I can think of technology that has been infused with magic that acts strangely.

[HunterOfJello]

In a world where sorcerers are naturally born and able to cast powerful magic spells, the onset of technology that isn't either related to or directly created by magic would be rare.

The technology that would be created would likely even have magic used as a precursor to gain insight into problem solving processes that would take years of study in a non-magic world. A single cleric casting Divine Insight before each attempt at doing a Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) check could become an intuitive savant and create all sorts of advanced tools.

[Rubik]

BTW, I can't think of where in Harry Potter magic and technology don't like each other. I can think of technology that has been infused with magic that acts strangely.http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Electricity

[rexx1888]

the implication within dnd is generally that the existence of magic is antithetical to the creation of mainstream tech..

the problem with that is that technology generally wasnt created to make the rich feel good, but to solve problems. Problems such as "why is it such a pain to plow this field" and "i want to be able to print lots of books easily". My understanding of dnd world though is such that wizards are generally a rare breed, an not out solving these problems because they have bigger more selfish world altering motivations... so why arent these problems still solved in much the same way as they were in our own world :(

[Urpriest]

The PHB has wagons, water clocks, and other items of medieval technology. None of them are specified to have particularly odd interactions with magic.

[(Un)Inspired]

How do you define technology? How about dogs? do they count as technology? How about ramps? Levers?

As far as I can tell there are hundreds of spells that interact with technology in a cohesive way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I would imagine it becomes "technology" in the colloquial sense when you reach the point of machinery complex enough that the operator no longer has to apply significant work for the machinery to accomplish its task and/or when it uses a relatively portable source of power such as burning fuel or electricity.

[Urpriest]

I would imagine it becomes "technology" in the colloquial sense when you reach the point of machinery complex enough that the operator no longer has to apply significant work for the machinery to accomplish its task and/or when it uses a relatively portable source of power such as burning fuel or electricity.

That's a pretty substantial sliding scale, though. It also doesn't mark out traits that would be special with respect to D&D-esque magic systems, so it's not really what Rubik is going for.

[(Un)Inspired]

I would imagine it becomes "technology" in the colloquial sense when you reach the point of machinery complex enough that the operator no longer has to apply significant work for the machinery to accomplish its task and/or when it uses a relatively portable source of power such as burning fuel or electricity.

I feel like dogs fit within your definition of technology. Breeders don't need to put work into getting the dog to work (although a ripcord on a dog would be pretty rad), and they have portable power sources in their fat cells and digestive systems.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's a pretty substantial sliding scale, though. It also doesn't mark out traits that would be special with respect to D&D-esque magic systems, so it's not really what Rubik is going for.

I don't know. We're talking at least a steam engines and mechanical calculators level of tech, maybe some electric lights. I'm thinking mid-ninteenth century or later. Before that technology moved at a fairly plodding pace all the way back to the beginning so I feel comfortable calling that the point at which technology can really be said to have taken off.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I feel like dogs fit within your definition of technology. Breeders don't need to put work into getting the dog to work (although a ripcord on a dog would be pretty rad), and they have portable power sources in their fat cells and digestive systems.

Animals aren't machines in the colloquial sense. They're also bred, not built.

[(Un)Inspired]

Animals aren't machines in the colloquial sense. They're also bred, not built.

When did built become the only definition of technology? You're right about the colloquial definition of machines but The OP wasn't asking about how magic interacts with people's colloquial ideas but with how magic interacts with technology.

Magic, as written in DnD interacts seamlessly (as seamlessly as anything can run in this system) with many different examples of technology.

[Alent]

I don't know about all the various splats, so I can't point out sources... but I thought Clockwork was a fairly established gnomish niche in medieval fantasy. There's at least one set of clockwork armor I see referenced around, the web supplement spellclock, the walking tower, the entire plane of Mechanus, Kn (architecture and engineering), etc.

Not much has been done with it, but it's there to build off of.

Edit: More than one person, myself included, has attempted to build a turing complete computer using magic device traps.

[Kelb_Panthera]

When did built become the only definition of technology? You're right about the colloquial definition of machines but The OP wasn't asking about how magic interacts with people's colloquial ideas but with how magic interacts with technology.

Magic, as written in DnD interacts seamlessly (as seamlessly as anything can run in this system) with many different examples of technology.

Without using the colloquial definition of technology, you can't separate magic and technology. Magic in 3.X is a science unto itself and fits within the technical definition for technology.

Unless you're talking colloquially, magic -is- technology.

[(Un)Inspired]

Without using the colloquial definition of technology, you can't separate magic and technology. Magic in 3.X is a science unto itself and fits within the technical definition for technology.

Unless you're talking colloquially, magic -is- technology.

If technology is the application of knowledge for practical purposes then yeah you're totally right magic fits the bill. That just further proves my point that magic and tech work fine together in D&D

[Kelb_Panthera]

If technology is the application of knowledge for practical purposes then yeah you're totally right magic fits the bill. That just further proves my point that magic and tech work fine together in D&D

I wasn't arguing to the contrary.

You asked how one would define technology. I presumed you meant in the colloquial since a technical definition isn't so subjective as to make the question relevant.

I gave a colloquial definition to answer your apparent request for such.

[Urpriest]

I don't know. We're talking at least a steam engines and mechanical calculators level of tech, maybe some electric lights. I'm thinking mid-ninteenth century or later. Before that technology moved at a fairly plodding pace all the way back to the beginning so I feel comfortable calling that the point at which technology can really be said to have taken off.

That's still ambiguous, though. Just because the curve is exponential doesn't mean it's easy to find a particular point on it. And I don't think that a fuzzy boundary like that is an appropriate place for either a metaphysical or rules-based distinction to be drawn.

[Slipperychicken]

Pathfinder almost has magitech, with its interactions between magic and firearms. You can literally have a magic gun which fires magical smart-bullets which let you hit invisible creatures as if they were visible.

Apparatus of the Crab (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#apparatusoftheCrab) is pretty magical and technical.

The Ornithopter from A&EG (pg 54-55) basically combines magical flight with a glider, and reeks of magitech. It's also fly speed 40ft (poor) for the low, low price of 4,000gp. Only works for Small characters, though.

A&EG has few vehicles which use things like magically-animated propellers.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's still ambiguous, though. Just because the curve is exponential doesn't mean it's easy to find a particular point on it. And I don't think that a fuzzy boundary like that is an appropriate place for either a metaphysical or rules-based distinction to be drawn.

I see it more as two intersecting curves than a single one. At about the point I specified, albeit a fairly broad point, the rate at which technology grows made a -sharp- increase rather than continuing to accelerate at the rate it did before that. The only similar point before that is the beginning of the industrial revolution about a century prior, IIRC.

It was the implementation of electricity in communications; the invention of the telegraph; that really did it though the first seriously applicable rotary steam engine driven locomotives coming into production at about that time certainly helped. The sudden dramatic increase in the speed with which resources and ideas could move is why I selected that era as the basis for my definition.

Technically, what I described existed before that point but only as relative rarities that had a fairly minimal impact on society at large rather than in the field to which they were immediately applicable.

Ultimately, it's a subjective definition. I don't deny that. I do, however, think it's a pretty good one. :smalltongue: