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View Full Version : Getting people to think "outside the box"



TheEvilComputerNerd
2007-01-28, 09:51 PM
I have a group that I DM for in WoW:RPG that look at things as simply as possible. They don't catch the big picture of the game, the scope and size of what they COULD be doing to what they ARE doing. If they come across a castle they need to infiltrate, they'll go to the front door. I try and suggest they use Gather Information and learn about the castle, maybe check out some weaknesses. They do, disregard the data, and go to the front door.

And they're trying is the thing. They think they're doing well when they have to fight through a castle and run away because they get overwhelmed. I guess I want them to role play a little more than roll play, but that's not exactly true. When I set them up with a pure "talking" scenario, as they call it, they try hard at that too. But they still try narrow scoped ideas that don't add any depth to the gameplay. It's always point A, then point B, nothing in the middle.

It was kind of hard to put this into words, but I think I did a good job in explaining how they operate. Any ideas on how to get them to think outside the box would be greatly appreciated.

DaMullet
2007-01-28, 09:57 PM
Make a castle with no front gate. Or have it hidden by illusions. Force them to think outside the box, don't just encourage it.

AmoDman
2007-01-28, 10:01 PM
Make a castle with no front gate. Or have it hidden by illusions. Force them to think outside the box, don't just encourage it.

That's a good one. I instantly thought of letting them narrowly escape a virtually unwinable situation, and offer some priest or something who will restore them up and offer an alternative course of action which will be so cool/fun they'll look for such options in the future (Ie. hidden underground path with crazy traps and little monsters to kill - MMOers always want little monsters to kill, hidden treasure, and, best of all, the same xp bonus!),

Fizban
2007-01-28, 10:10 PM
Maybe it's cause you're playing the [b]WoW[/b[ RPG? Presumably your players have only played WoW before, where everything is a lot more clear cut and they don't have to think (sorry if I just insulted anyone). Dnd is not a video game, you have to think real (fantasy) world solutions. You might just need to explain to your players the difference between PnP and MMO.

TheThan
2007-01-28, 10:22 PM
WoW uses very clear cut goals in it’s quest system. Like kill that creature, find x items and return them to me… that sort of stuff.

You could try to influence their way of thinking by the vocabulary you use. Like in the above example, instead of saying “break into the castle” or “assault the castle”, say “sneak into the castle” or “slip into the castle”. Words that denote what kinds of actions you want them to undertake. I dunno if this will help as some people just don’t pick up that sort of stuff. But at least it’s worth a try.

TheEvilComputerNerd
2007-01-28, 10:25 PM
Make a castle with no front gate. Or have it hidden by illusions. Force them to think outside the box, don't just encourage it.

I hate to train the story though. I want them to want to look around and find things out, but maybe they do need a little structure to lead them along.


I know what you mean. I have a bunch of DnD books, but I didn't think DnD would pull them off WoW. It definetly effects them too, when we first started playing they kept saying things like..."Ok, I turn on stealth." or "Someone else aggro, I'm Dps." But they seemed to have caught onto the concept of d20 and the rules, if not the spirt of the play.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-28, 10:30 PM
Try giving them more open ended goals. For example, gather information on the mysterious cult, or help drive the undead away from the ruins. The party can't bash down the front door if they aren't sure whether or not it exists, or even if it's relevent.

Chris_Chandler
2007-01-28, 10:39 PM
One thing that helps to understand is that in a computer game there are simply walls everywhere. Computer gaming, by necessity, puts constraints within the game that inherently limit choice. Your group is just playing by experience, in large part. You might think about giving some non-"crawl" type adventures. By that I mean you might want to move away from an exploratory type game, and put them in a situation - a social situation perhaps - where "opening the front door" just isn't an option.

Likewise, a "slueth" type game, where clues are specifically hidden might be a good option. That way your player or group knows that they are supposed to look in out of the way places. The Secret Door (tm) isn't a known quantity to everyone, unless it's put in context first.

JaronK
2007-01-29, 12:32 AM
Man, my problem is always GMs who won't let me be creative...

How about a mission where kick in the door combat is too costly... perhaps where the front gate is too heavily gaurded?

JaronK

AmoDman
2007-01-29, 12:38 AM
Man, my problem is always GMs who won't let me be creative...

How about a mission where kick in the door combat is too costly... perhaps where the front gate is too heavily gaurded?

JaronK

No offense, but it sounds like that's already the case (they're attacking regardless of what mobs may guard).

Darkshade
2007-01-29, 12:39 AM
dude next meeting bring a box with you and a bunch of notecards.
have stuff like break down the front door, and kill all the monsters, written on the notes. show the notes to your players then put them in the box.

then just start the meeting.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-29, 12:46 AM
I just punish the hell out of PC's that make actions that annoy or aggravate me. I don't do it by having something absolutely random come up. I just make sure that the next time a situation comes up where I know they'll act one way, I make that the absolute worst possible decision in a realistic way.

Darkshade
2007-01-29, 12:50 AM
so your saying that like...
if they always boot down the front gate make the front gate a mimic or some kind of animated door construct thing. so maybe next time they'll think twice before trying to just boot down the first door that they see?

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-01-29, 12:51 AM
Yes, exactly like that. In fact, that's awesome.

Munchy
2007-01-29, 01:08 AM
1. Tell your players that they should approach the problem as if it were a real life situation. How would they approach it, IRL, if their lives were on the line?

2. Don't cut them any slack. Set up realistic defenses, have NPCs behave realistically. Few things deliver the message 'That was stupid' as well as a TPK. If one or more PCs die, so be it.

3. Help bridge the gap between the PC's stats and knowledge and those of the player. If you have a situation where a PC would think of alternatives and the player is just too clueless to do so, force a check of the appropriate sort (knowledge X, Int, Wis) and deliver hints on an alternative course of action.

Darkshade
2007-01-29, 01:15 AM
and to expand upon Munchy's advice...

2b. They are still new and inexperienced and your friends, the first time they get TPK'ed you might want to have them wake up back at the last inn they stayed at and make it a horrible dream. But only the first time.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-29, 01:20 AM
Three words: Immovable Rods. Plural.

Mewtarthio
2007-01-29, 01:23 AM
and to expand upon Munchy's advice...

2b. They are still new and inexperienced and your friends, the first time they get TPK'ed you might want to have them wake up back at the last inn they stayed at and make it a horrible dream. But only the first time.

Then have them leave the inn, notice some odd things, until it slowly dawns on them that they are, in fact, trapped inside a very special layer of Baator.

illathid
2007-01-29, 02:46 AM
Then have them leave the inn, notice some odd things, until it slowly dawns on them that they are, in fact, trapped inside a very special layer of Baator.

Thats the most awesome idea I have ever heard. Offalion here we come!

Khantalas
2007-01-29, 06:14 AM
Then have them leave the inn, notice some odd things, until it slowly dawns on them that they are, in fact, trapped inside a very special layer of Baator.

Though Baator has only ten layers. And one of them is unknown even by Asmodeus.

You might be thinking of the foul plane that the wretched lowly fiends some people call "dem-", ah, I can't say that. You know what I mean.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-29, 06:16 AM
Though Baator has only ten layers. And one of them is unknown even by Asmodeus.
LIES! Asmodeus knows ALL!

Khantalas
2007-01-29, 06:17 AM
Well, that one was a state secret. I had to personally erase that particaular memory from his mind.

As much as I hate tampering with the mind of a great and holy baatezu, that one had to be done.

Logic
2007-01-29, 08:19 AM
A simple quest that gets the players to think.

A obviously drunken Centaur (Or Tauren for WoW purposes) is in the bar making a mess.
The barkeep/innkeeper wants the Cantaur/Tauren out, and enlists the PCs help.
No one has the ability to throw him out of the bar physically, as the offender usually has more than enough strength to just throw them off.
The simplest solution to get him out of the bar is throw a cold drink on him and run out the door.
What happens after you are out the door could go many ways, but quest completed, and it forces the players to think of many ways of accomplishing the goal.

Lapak
2007-01-29, 10:23 AM
If you're patient, present them with a situation where bulling through directly will give them momentary success with medium- to long-term consequences.

For the example given: let's assume that they need to get into this castle for a reason beyond 'kill the occupants of the castle.' They're retrieving a valuable item from the vaults, or freeing a prisoner, or some such. Make sure you create at least one plausible path to success for both the gathering-information route (a secret tunnel guarded by advanced crocodiles running under the walls leads to a location near the vault) and a chance at success via the kick-the-door-down route (they can, if they act quickly, bust through the guards for a smash-and-grab before the whole garrison can be organized to stop them.)

Then make sure that both methods have results in the world, but just as smash-and-grab is more blatant, so is the fallout from it. If the castle is a fortress of evil, then invading through the sewers might cause the villains to find and brick up the gate, buff up the sewer guards, whatever; they've found a vulnerability and the castle reacts. But a group smashing their way in indicates an outright danger to the organization that owns the castle; they start oppressing the populace, conscripting three times as many soldiers, etc. Conditions around the castle get dramatically worse.

To pull out another example, the party decides to rid the hills of a tribe of nomads that are sometimes raiding a town rather than doing some diplomacy or investigation and finding out out that the town is plowing their traditional burial ground under? Also fine. The party kills a bunch of nomads and the rest fade away - until the party of obviously dangerous mercenaries leave. When the party swings back that way in a few months, they find a full-scale guerilla war going on with half of the village dead or impoverished and the nomads on the edge of extinction, with the reasons behind the raids now obvious.. Even if they can easily polish off the nomads and make the town safe, they've been given an example of how bulling through and then wandering off can create a problem.

squishycube
2007-01-29, 10:34 AM
I must say your players are quite thick-skulled, they do A, A fails so they give up? Or they just try A again until it works? It sounds like they need some serious shaking about in the narrow-minded department.

I agree with many options mentioned, one I didn't really see yet:
- Learn by example. Give them a charismatic NPC that travels with them for a while and have him propose alternative ideas to those they want to do. They might be stubborn and still do it their way, but when their plan fails, they might consider his plan. After a while, they might catch on to his thinking outside of the box and you could even throw something that is totally clear-cut so they need to use the foot-in-door strategy again. Force them to use different, but thougt-out plans. Have the NPC propose back-up plans, exit strategies ("What do we do if this plan fails while we are inside?"), etc.

Gamebird
2007-01-29, 10:42 AM
Everyone has great ideas, so I'll play Devil's Advocate. What if your players like the way they're playing and don't want a "complicated" game? In my D&D games, both groups specifically asked for me to avoid the moral ambiguity my Vampire chronicles had contained. So I did. They're happy. I'm happy (more-or-less... ::sniff::).

They might be comfortable inside that box.

Brauron
2007-01-29, 10:45 AM
Hahaa, my group is the same way...we think outside of the box constantly, and the answer is often extremely straight-forward...but then, our way has gotten consistent and surprising results anyways. An NPC Fighter that should have beaten the crap out of us, didn't do so much as a single wound as we beat the snot out of him. Bears we were supposed to run from, ran from us.

Shrew
2007-01-29, 10:59 AM
Well, my problem is similar, but the players I have are experienced DND gamers. I give them the option to ask questions from important figures, and they just say nothing I can think of. I try to get them to ask questions, but I think that most people are used to a simple plot. If you give them a large, big picture type situation most people do not think as far ahead as the DM has planned.

Lapak
2007-01-29, 11:13 AM
Everyone has great ideas, so I'll play Devil's Advocate. What if your players like the way they're playing and don't want a "complicated" game? In my D&D games, both groups specifically asked for me to avoid the moral ambiguity my Vampire chronicles had contained. So I did. They're happy. I'm happy (more-or-less... ::sniff::).

They might be comfortable inside that box.That works pretty well with my suggestion, I think. They hit the castle, the castle conscripts soldiers, they hit the castle again... harder. They kill the nomads, the nomads regroup while they're gone, they wipe the nomads all the way out. If they're happy with the smash, slice and kill, the consequences method just gives them more targets. :smallsmile:

Woot Spitum
2007-01-29, 11:16 AM
Try to think from the perspective of MMO players. While a D&D player might interpret insermountable obstacles as the DM's way of subtely suggesting he try a different approach, an MMO player will look at that same obstacle and think, "I must not be strong enough for this area. I should go gain some more levels, then come back and see how I do." What you must begin to show their players is that leveling up will not make the encounter any easier. Show them that the enemies' difficulty increases at exactly the same rate as their own power. Don't give them the option of running (for example: you could tell them that they are on a strict time limit, if they don't stop the bad guys today, they fail their quest). Maybe even add a stealth element (if the whole castle realizes there are intruders, you fail. You must not leave any witnesses of your prescense).

Jorkens
2007-01-29, 11:31 AM
Had you considered talking to them - discretely or bluntly - outside of the game? Find out whether they're actually more interested in big battle scenes than clever solutions or hint that they could do better if they tried something a bit more subtle...

Alternatively, do you know any more experienced roleplayers who could join your group from time to time to help them in the right direction?

Otherwise, yes, giving them challenges that just don't have a front door would probably work. Not just literally, but metaphorically - for instance, make them rescue someone from the secret hideout of a bunch of bandits. Then plant a bunch of NPCs with information that could lead them there indirectly - one who saw them somewhere recently so you can track them from there, one who knows someone in a nearby village who escaped from them before or stumbled across the lair before running away, someone who knows a dodgy trader who deals with them occasionally...

GolemsVoice
2007-01-29, 11:32 AM
Maybe, if you want to bash it into them, have a priest join them, and let him insist something important for him is in the castle. As a priest of the Holy Light, of course, killing is not the way to go for him, and therefore, not for the PCs.
Or confront them with their actions. If they want to talk to the guards and trick their way inside, make it hard, but possible. If they want to break the door, let them face an entire castle full of guards. If you're a nice DM, they get caught or can escape finaly, but if you're not, let them die.

Jorkens
2007-01-29, 11:49 AM
Oh, and a bit of carrot and stick might help. Trying to gather information and find a nonobvious solution doesn't just avoid them getting killed by millions of soldiers but might get cool stuff to help them, too. Maybe a well disposed wizard hasn't got any information but can buff them before they head off, maybe someone's heard that there's more treasure at the end of wherever it is that they're looking than is immediately obvious, maybe they just get roleplaying XP for even trying a subtle approach...

Wehrkind
2007-01-29, 10:36 PM
I think the idea of planting an NPC to show them an alternate method if they want is a good idea.

Have them encounter a group of the castle's soldiers chasing after a ragged man. They (likely) kill the soldiers to rescue the fellow, and find out he was an escaped prisoner. He offers to show tham a sneaky way in if they want.

Additionally, it might be better to be gentle on TPK. Let them wipe, and start from the beginning of the dangerous parts. WoW players in particular will appreciate that, and it will let them learn from mistakes without just getting frustrated. Make it clear they only get that a finite number of times, like 3.

jjpickar
2007-01-29, 10:45 PM
Why is everyone forsaking WotC game theory. In the DMGII they tell us how to handle this situation.

(This isn't quoted verbatim so as not too infringe or plagiarize.) Basically every set of players has a style of play. This is the style they enjoy playing. Be it bash door or role play. The point is that they are having fun. If you don't want them to have fun then punish them by all means but it doesn't make you very popular.

JadedDM
2007-01-29, 10:48 PM
So the DM shouldn't have fun? I mean, he's the one who puts all the work into it, who devotes hours (or days even) of his freetime building everything up. The DM should run the game he wants to run, because simple fact: If the DM isn't having fun, the game WILL suffer. Like any craft, if you aren't enjoying it, if you don't get any satisfaction or pride from it, the quality will degrade.

If the players and the DM are way too incompatible to reach a compromise, then you're better off finding new players.

Ninja Chocobo
2007-01-29, 10:53 PM
Hahaa, my group is the same way...we think outside of the box constantly, and the answer is often extremely straight-forward...but then, our way has gotten consistent and surprising results anyways. An NPC Fighter that should have beaten the crap out of us, didn't do so much as a single wound as we beat the snot out of him. Bears we were supposed to run from, ran from us.
Heh. Reminds me of a classic moment. We were playing a store-bought module (Thieves in the Forest, or something). We had to Bluff an Ogre into thinking we liked his pictures. We didn't want to, and found the theives' hideout. Inside, we found a vial of paralysis poison (contact). We went back to the ogre, as we had a proverbial bone to pick with him. We threw the poison at him, and he got paralysed. We killed him in about two rounds, eventually. Led to the classic quote from our DM:
"You're not supposed to kill the ogre!!"

jjpickar
2007-01-29, 10:57 PM
So the DM shouldn't have fun? I mean, he's the one who puts all the work into it, who devotes hours (or days even) of his freetime building everything up. The DM should run the game he wants to run, because simple fact: If the DM isn't having fun, the game WILL suffer. Like any craft, if you aren't enjoying it, if you don't get any satisfaction or pride from it, the quality will degrade.

If the players and the DM are way too incompatible to reach a compromise, then you're better off finding new players.

That's pretty much what they say next. I just love to DM no matter what kind of party I have so it never really bothers me. Still if you can't possibly have fun with a world you create and manipulate then...well...I don't know what to tell you.

Wehrkind
2007-01-29, 11:11 PM
Yes, it is a good idea to let them play the game they want to play. That doesn't mean you can't show them another way to play to broaden their horizon. Leave the options for various solutions open, and don't kick them in the junk for not doing exactly what you want, and it will be fine.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-01-30, 05:10 AM
To be even more of a Devil's Advocate than Gamebird, I'll say this:

An awful lot of problems with players are really problems with GMs.

Let's look at your situation.

They have a castle to get into. Do they know why they have to get into it? Do they have an in or out of character reason to care?

Having them make "Gather Information" checks in order to find out about other *possible* routes into the castle just isn't going to cut it. DMs always do this wrong: they try to give the players a trail of clues, but in practice what they do is give them a few vague hints which don't link together into a coherent plan.

Here's my (radical) suggestion.

Draw a floorplan of the castle, and the grounds. Give your players *serious* *hard* intelligence on troop numbers and movements, mark all the doors, all the windows. Make the whole thing into a *strategic planning exercise*.

And don't require Gather Information checks. Gather Information is one of those useless skills which you need to succeed at to stop the game from sucking.

Ethdred
2007-01-30, 06:49 AM
Good stuff from Dan there.

I'd also add a point which some people have sort of said but not explicitly - how about giving them a reason not to kill anyone. For example, they have been hired to sneak into an evil temple, steal the relic and replace it with a replica, so when the evil priest does the evil ritual it will actually backfire, leading to a positive response. If he finds out what happens then he won't do the ritual at all. So they can't leave any trace of their passage. If they do it right, then give them a damn good punch up for their next adventure, as a reward :)

Some people have said that maybe they are happy with their style, which is true, but if they've never realised the true breadth of live rolelaying then maybe they don't realise how much happier they could be. You do need to talk to them about this, but you could do a good thing by broadening their horizons - though they're always likely to be on the smash it up end of the spectrum

Indon
2007-01-30, 08:24 AM
I would ease them into it by working them into the wonderful world of diplomacy, myself.

It's easy to make a diplomatic mission as hack-and-slash as you want just by using various degrees of hostility between nations, or by using different degrees of intrigue.

And there are _tons_ of foreign powers to deal with in Azeroth, I do believe.

Alternately, I do believe there are settlement creation rules in the back of that book; if you get the PC's involved in the protection and defense of a single settlement, then start slipping in non-combat oriented growth objectives (Our village needs mining tools. Could you go to the next village over and buy some?), they're likely to go right along with it.

Artanis
2007-01-30, 01:52 PM
The last time a DnD party I was in "thought outside the box", we ended up torching a warehouse, being arrested, and then torching the police station we were taken to.

...I'm just sayin', is all.

squishycube
2007-01-30, 02:17 PM
Give your players *serious* *hard* intelligence on troop numbers and movements, mark all the doors, all the windows. Make the whole thing into a *strategic planning exercise*.
This is great advice to make your party think. I started playing in a new campaign a few months ago and this is very much what is happening. I never planned combats ahead so much! It's great fun, with some unexpected combats mixed into it as well.

SpiderBrigade
2007-01-30, 03:54 PM
Another suggestion is to put the party in the opposite role of an encounter. For instance have them defending a castle against a group of enemies, giving them command of the garrison and etc. Before they tell you their plan, come up with an "outside the box" solution for the enemy to use. NOTE: I don't mean "come up with a plan that exploits the weaknesses of whatever they decide to do." That's evil and wrong. But at the very least, thinking about how they need to defend will make them more aware of what they might try, next time they have to get in somewhere.

Maclav
2007-01-30, 07:15 PM
Here Here. Sounds like the players are playing the game they want to play.

Quit trying to shoehorn your players into your game style. My wife likes kicking in doors so much that I have resurrection stones and xp loss and all kinda of very MMO like things in the game. She loves it and I get to use every sadistic trick in the book to try to kill her character.

CharPixie
2007-01-30, 07:26 PM
I'd recommend that you make XP based on the quest, not the monsters fought. If each monster isn't a bag of XP and gold, then your players might be adverse to risking their necks as much. Also, I'd recommend that you make the best treasure available when they take side-routes. Throw in a few extra scrolls, or up the weapon's enhancement bonus by 1. If they have been trained to kick in the door, you can train them to think and be rewarded.