D&D's Misbegotten Monsters

[Jergmo]

I recently acquired a physical copy of the Monster Manual, and it struck me as I flipped through just how many monsters I've never really used. Some appear to be for good reason. But now that I really look at them, I'm starting to find them endearing.

Take the humble Athach. I have never once seen any DM use it, I have never considered using them, and I have never seen them discussed on these forums.

Look at the thing. It's ugly, it's strange, I have no idea how it came to be and it is absolutely RIDDLED with bling. It is wearing a revolting patchwork of entire animal hides, including the heads. Its loincloth is a trophy rug - its loincloth! To top it all off, it has this half-awake and confused look on its face, as if to say, "I don't know what I'm doing here." And I don't either.

And now, I love him for it.

What are some of the weird, little-used monsters the Playground has noticed? Do you hate them? Is it simply difficult to find a niche for them your games? Has anyone ever seen some creatures that may be mentioned in action?

[Thurbane]

Personally, I love using the Athach as a DM. I've thrown one against my party in the first 3.X campaign I ran.

I haven't used a lot of the other MM aberrations (apart from the iconics - illithid, beholder etc.), such as Chuul, Destrachan or Grick.

[Crake]

I think most DMs will have a theme of monsters that they like to use (for example, for me, it's angels and demons/devils, plus a few lovecraftian horrors in the mix), and stick to those, so monsters like the Athach, which don't typically fit into any theme (short of probably just "Monstrous Humanoids") tend to get ignored a fair bit.

[GolemsVoice]

We once got beat up pretty solidly by a Chain Golem. That thing was cool. Golems in general are awesom. There's almost as many different sorts and materials (ranging from the ordinary, steel, flesh etc. to the exotic, web, chains, rope (I think) ) as dragons, and they rarely see play, aside from the aforementioned ordinary types.

[ChaoticDitz]

... Anybody ever fight against a Belker? Or a Cockatrice? I've had entire campaigns dedicated to less-used creatures.

Now, I can tell you for a fact that my DM has ran a lot of uncommon monsters, but most of them are only uncommon in that they're templated to hell and back (sometimes literally - Fiendish Baleen Whale much?).

[Calimehter]

I ran an entire adventure around Skiurids the last time I DMed, and it turned into one of the more entertaining adventures I had done in a long time.

Really, its good and fun that D&D has a huge pack of those kinds of monsters. If you didn't have them, you couldn't drag them out of obscurity from time to time and get a lot of surprise/novelty value out of them.

[Jergmo]

I actually have seen a belker used once, by a friend who had us running througha dead wizard's mansion. We derailed it within five minutes: tricking the butler (who we found suspicious) into being turned into stone by a custom monster, pillaging and inevitably setting the place on fire. It was expected with that DM, though.

I've never seen a skiurid, though. What are they?

[weckar]

An Athach's third arm is... strange. Otherwise, it might as well be a goblin.

I think that's the main problem: why use an obscure monster when the more common alternative is so close?

[Calimehter]

Skiurids are from MMIV. Basically shadow-squirrels that can blanket an area with damaging darkness as part of their life cycle. Played to the hilt, they are a bit under-CRed (I think they got a mention in the recent 'broken monsters' thread??) but their abilities lent themselves well to a low-level murder mystery.

[Meowmasterish]

I think that animated objects aren't commonly used, but could make for an interesting campaign.
My DM also brought in an inevitable because we had brought someone back to life which he didn't like. I had no idea what it was and I realized that they could also make for an interesting campaign.

[Jergmo]

Isn't there some kind of magical rat that does the same thing during a full moon? :smallconfused:

I'd like to throw another one out there, the Entomber, from Libris Mortis. Even in an undead-themed campaign, I couldn't use it because I simply couldn't take it seriously.

The Entomber stares you down with wild eyes, festering and covered in dirt and filth, pointing down at the ground silently (its lips are sewn shut). And then it bodyslams you into (and under) the ground. I simply couldn't use a quiet and intense undead WWE fighter with a straight face.

[weckar]

....Entomber eh?


Anyone want to propose an opponent for a cage match?

[paperarmor]

One of my favorites are the Bladerager Trolls of MM 5 fame. Why you may ask? They explode when they die on top of everything else that makes trolls fun.

[Calimehter]

Isn't there some kind of magical rat that does the same thing during a full moon? :smallconfused:

Its really funny that you mention that, because now that I think about it, the campaign just before the last one (which was a couple of years ago now) I had a bunch of Cranium Rats (the monster I believe you are referring to) infesting a town sewer system as one of the adventures.

If I'm not careful, I'm going to start running out of freaky supernatural rodents to throw at them. :smallbiggrin:

[Jergmo]

Cranium rats have exposed brains and their gimmick is they gain sorcerous power as a swarm as they increase in numbers. But I think there's also a magical breed of rat that goes on a rampage of mischief and murder during a full moon, but on any other occasion it's just a rat.

But don't forget about Spelljammer's giant space hamsters (or their miniature counterparts).

[weckar]

And there's always were-rats... And werebunnies. I love werebunnies.

[Tevesh]

I like to think of these monsters as 'peasant monsters'. I've had the PCs fight Cockatrice in my campaign. Instead of paying a ferryman a few hundred gold, the PCs went to his field and had to track down a Cockatrice hole. It was a micro adventure that suited the PCs level (somewhere around 3 to 6).

Also, I have used Animated Objects. I think my favourite was the PCs were in the Mournland in the Eberron Campaign Setting, where the evil Warforged reside. The PCs were to find a base the Warforged were using, a landmark was a decrepit house in a particular area. What they didn't know is that the Warforged had animated the house.

It was hilarious having the PCs inside and outside of the house fight it as it jumped around and smashed them.

I always try to find new monsters to play with, to throw curve balls but when I want a serious fight, I use the classics.

[weckar]

On a monster-playing-related note: Do you think, if I play it enough, WOTC could send me a poster size print of the monster picture on MM198? Please?

[saxavarius]

Or you could just take it to your local kinkos and get it printed

[weckar]

Wouldn't have the resolution of the mothercopy.

Also: What is a kinkos?

[MonochromeTiger]

Wouldn't have the resolution of the mothercopy.

Also: What is a kinkos?

a store full of copying machines and/or a pop culture reference from before the magical age of just sending the file to a computer with a much better copier than the store has.

[weckar]

Now there's an encounter that should be statted... stat

[MonochromeTiger]

out of ink (ex)
all humanoid targets in or directly next to the kinko's experience a sense of overwhelming futility and must pass a DC 25 will save or bash their faces into the walls and floors until the universe stops hating them taking 2d6 bludgeoning damage each round, new save every round.

[Kol Korran]

I wondered about the misunderstood and forgotten monsters long ago. I started a small project of giving such monsters a better write up to make them more appealing, and have a place in the world. It doesn't make a lot of mechanical changes, but focuses more on fluff and gaming potential.

You can check my little project here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81051). Feel free to add to it, all contributions are welcome! :smallbiggrin:

[Devronq]

I've personally used every monster is all 5 manuals at least once but that was only because I intentionally went through and made an encounter with each just for the sake of saying I did :p

[HunterOfJello]

I've always liked the Derro. Most people don't even realize they're in the first MM since they don't have a picture.

[ChaoticDitz]

I've always liked the Derro. Most people don't even realize they're in the first MM since they don't have a picture.

......... What is this sorcery!? I completely missed that! Bwah...

On-topic, there's also the Jermaines that my DM is particularly fond of. I don't think those are used very often, from what I've heard at least.

[prufock]

Isn't there some kind of magical rat that does the same thing during a full moon? :smallconfused:
These are reasonably named Moon Rats.

[Dr. Cliché]

I'd like to nominate this thing:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50102.jpg

[Bronk]

I've used Senmurvs... they're pretty cool, but I used them as an NPC contact rather than an encounter.

[zephyrkinetic]

My favorite "lolwut" picture in the MM is the Ethereal Filcher. I've never used one (or seen one used), but they are hilarious-looking.

Probably most unusual one I've used is the Azer, and I doubt many people use it, all tucked away at the very front like that. Why not just use a dwarf, if you want a dwarf? Why not just use a Fire-something, if you want fire? But I made one into an NPC, and he was pretty awesome.

[killem2]

Jermgo, I think you should start a Monster of the day and whatever is chosen, res ponders have to write of a small scenario to use it in :D

[Jurai]

Senmurvs have my vote for "What did Wizards make their monster designers smoke?"

In other news, any ooze and vermin. Living jello molds and bugs don't really hold Sword and WIZARD KILLS EVERYTHING fantasy that well.

[Jergmo]

Jermgo, I think you should start a Monster of the day and whatever is chosen, res ponders have to write of a small scenario to use it in :D

"Playground! Bring me an Achaierai!"

[shylocke]

I like antlions. I lost a party of 4 lvl 8s to two of them.

Or phantom fungus.
Shocker lizards ,man, shocker lizards. Make a partially water filled cave and put pirate treasure in the back. Have hidden shocker lizards dens hidden in the walls. Good size chamber could hold a fairly large colony. When the party approaches the treasure and enters the water the lizards attack. Give an listen and Wilderness lore check to notice the clicking sound and recognize it. Sudden bright blue flash. Colony of five lizards can do 10d8 electric in a 25" radius once per round. Our DM allows for water and metal conductivity in such situations.

One of our wizards got reincarnated as one once. Then the DM accidentally gave has 3 eggs. So when they hatched they thought he was the parent. He also took another shocker lizard familiar before they hatched. 5lizards in a party is funny. Especially when one is technically the party leader.

[Malimar]

I like... pretty much the entirety of MM4 and MM5, and to a lesser extent MM3. (I'd like MM2 if it were better-balanced and I didn't need to consult both an update and an errata every time I wanted to use a monster out of it.)

I just recently ran a combat with a necrosis carnex (MM3), and its host of several related abilities were a delightful, refreshing change from a dungeon otherwise full of boring ol' skeletons and ghouls and other MM1 undead.

One of my favorite monsters to inflict on players is the Crypt Thing (FF), whose entire schtick is using teleportation to split the party (but I only like it in online games, where keeping track of a split-up party is easier than over a real-life tabletop).

[nedz]

I think that animated objects aren't commonly used, but could make for an interesting campaign.

I've used these. The party were storing a warehouse with some Orc snipers on some catwalks. These had a crate of animated caltrops and a crate of animated manacles, which they kicked off the catwalks to create interference. The caltrops scurried around trying to get you to stand on one, this didn't really work. The manacles did manage to tie up one of the clerics, which was amusing.

I've also run a Blackstone Gigant which has animated statues of it's victims.

There was also the Ancient Night Twist, which has a Dispair Song(Su) ability which goes all night. Bit of an all night mad rave. In the book this has an area of effect of 150 miles radius, fixed in the errata to 750 feet; had me worried until I checked this.

[Jurai]

"Playground! Bring me an Achaierai!"

Azandolus, Kingslayer of Mardanthus
Achaierai Fighter 3/Blackguard 5/Duskblade 4
Size/Type: Large Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 10d8+8d10+36 (126 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), 50 ft. base speed
Armor Class: 31 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +10 natural, +11 Armor), touch 10, flat-footed 30
Base Attack/Grapple: +17/+24
Attack: Claw +21 melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +21 melee (2d6+5) and bite +16 melee (4d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Black Cloud, Detect Good, Smite Good 2/day (+3/+5), Sneak Attack +1d6, Spells, Arcane Attunement, Arcane Channeling
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., spell resistance 19, Poison Use, Dark Blessing, Aura of Despair, Armored Mage
Saves: Fort +20 Ref +11, Will +14
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 16
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +14, Diplomacy +5, Hide +6, Jump +14, Listen +11, Move Silently +11, Sense Motive +11, Spot +11
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Power Attack(F), Cleave(F), Improved Sunder, Improved Initiative, Spontaneous Wounder, Combat casting (B)
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: Double standard, +3 Mithral Full Plate Barding
Alignment: Lawful evil

Aura of Evil (Ex)
The power of a blackguard’s aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to his class level plus his cleric level, if any.

Detect Good (Sp)
At will, a blackguard can use detect good as a spell-like ability, duplicating the effect of the detect good spell.

Poison Use
Blackguards are skilled in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Dark Blessing (Su)
A blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws.

Spells Prepared
1st-Cure Light Wounds, Corrupt Weapon
2nd-Cure Moderate Wounds, Shatter

Spells Known
0-Acid Splash, Touch of Fatigue, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Frost
1st-Shocking Grasp, True Strike

Smite Good (Su): Twice per day, Azandolus may make a smite attack, adding his Charisma modifier to his attack roll and deal 5 extra points of

damage.

Aura of Despair (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, the blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a -2

penalty on all saving throws.

Rebuke Undead (Su): When a blackguard reaches 3rd level, he gains the supernatural ability to command and rebuke undead. He commands undead as

would a cleric of two levels lower.

Sneak Attack: This ability, gained at 4th level, is like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage increases by +1d6 every third level

beyond 4th (7th and 10th). If a blackguard gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Arcane Attunement (Sp): You can use the spell-like powers dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, and read magic 3 times per day. These

spell-like powers do not count against your total of spells known or spells per day.

Armored Mage (Ex): Normally, armor of any type interferes with an arcane spellcaster’s gestures, which can cause spells to fail if those spells

have a somatic component. A duskblade’s limited focus and specialized training, however, allows you to avoid arcane spell failure so long as you

stick to light armor and light shields. This training does not extend to medium or heavy armors, nor to heavy shields. This ability does not apply

to spells gained from a different spellcasting class.
At 4th level, you learn to use medium armor with no chance of arcane spell failure.

Combat Casting: At 2nd level, you gain Combat Casting as a bonus feat.

Arcane Channeling (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know and deliver the spell through your

weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1

standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.

CR 17: Azandolus has been called to the Material by rookie summoner, and has escaped. He has traveled to the Kingdom of Mardanthus, killed their

king, and has taken the throne, plunging the kingdom into chaos and civil war to sate his combative urges, and the Seneschal of the old King has

come begging you to help him. When you get to Azandolus, he is bored, and when he sees you, laughs, and charges you.

[Jergmo]

Oh God. The throne has become a nest and intensive grain taxes have been levied across the land.

Brain-In-A-Jar is something that gets a few laughs, usually. But given that it's day #2 of this thread... what if it was a serious threat with a plot and a personality?

[Jurai]

Honestly, that was one of those monsters that should have been a template. Like Half-elves and Half-orcs. Or Half-anything!

[Silva Stormrage]

... Anybody ever fight against a Belker? Or a Cockatrice? I've had entire campaigns dedicated to less-used creatures.

Now, I can tell you for a fact that my DM has ran a lot of uncommon monsters, but most of them are only uncommon in that they're templated to hell and back (sometimes literally - Fiendish Baleen Whale much?).

I have used both of those in a recent campaign.

I think I have also at some point used pretty much every undead monster in the monster manuals and libris mortis at some point though :smalltongue:

[Der_DWSage]

I just used something from the SRD recently that should be nominated. The noble Rast. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG213.jpg) A dragon's head, 15 spindly little spider legs, perfect flight, they bleed out your constitution while you're in their grasp, they have a paralyzing gaze, and worst of all, you can't kill them with fire.

...And best of all, I don't think there's anything quite like them to compare them to, besides maybe spiders. And spiders aren't half so terrifying.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Personally, I love using the Athach as a DM. I've thrown one against my party in the first 3.X campaign I ran.

I haven't used a lot of the other MM aberrations (apart from the iconics - illithid, beholder etc.), such as Chuul, Destrachan or Grick.I love using Gricks. My players have grown to hate them, though. I wonder why...


Isn't there some kind of magical rat that does the same thing during a full moon? :smallconfused:

You may be thinking of Moonrats (MM2); their Intelligence score varies by the phase of the moon. IIRC, on the full moon they have an Intelligence score of 10.

[Calimehter]

You may be thinking of Moonrats (MM2); their Intelligence score varies by the phase of the moon. IIRC, on the full moon they have an Intelligence score of 10.

Bloody heck, it was moonrats in the years-ago campaign I was thinking of, not cranium rats. Sorry about the confusing anecdote!

[Starbuck_II]

... Anybody ever fight against a Belker? Or a Cockatrice? I've had entire campaigns dedicated to less-used creatures.

Now, I can tell you for a fact that my DM has ran a lot of uncommon monsters, but most of them are only uncommon in that they're templated to hell and back (sometimes literally - Fiendish Baleen Whale much?).

I fought a Cockatrice, but this was 2nd edition. One of my party members was stoned (also turned to stone).

I've never fought an Achaierai, but I've summoned them.

[Dawgmoah]

I think that animated objects aren't commonly used, but could make for an interesting campaign.
My DM also brought in an inevitable because we had brought someone back to life which he didn't like. I had no idea what it was and I realized that they could also make for an interesting campaign.

Being inspired by Ray Bradburys' early science fiction story, "The House," I recreated it in DND using animated objects. The original story featured a post apocalyptic house full of robotic gadgets that continued brewing coffee, running the shower, watering the lawn, folding clothes, sweeping, etc, etc, while the human inhabitants were nothing but darkened shadows left on the wall.

So in the DND version there was no nuclear weapon blast: just the magician who built the place had wandered off into another adventure. So the adventurers broke into the place and started fighting the animated brooms and dustpans that came padding out to clean up the broken glass. By the end of the adventure they were lucky to escape with their lives while their clothes and possessions were carefully cleaned, dried, ironed, and folded neatly into chests. I thought about putting in "security" animated objects but thought it would be overkill. The dishwasher really frazzled them...

[Thurbane]

I think that animated objects aren't commonly used, but could make for an interesting campaign.
I played in a module (Dungeon Crawl Classic from memory), where you find a treasure chest in a very low ceiling room (2.5 feet or so) in a kobold lair. When you open it, several tiny animated dolls jumped out and started attacking with spears. At low level, and squeezing under a low roof, was a pretty tough and interesting encounter.

[TheMonocleRogue]

My first experience using a monster I had no experience DMing with was with the Aboleth. The first time I saw it in the monster manual I thought it had no great potential as a BBEG.

I was dead wrong. It is an incredible monster with so much potential and I use it frequently in campaigns today. Even though the base creature has a CR of 7, it can easily face off against 9th level parties if given enough room to work with its illusions.

[Azoth]

I can not remember the name of it right now AFB, but is a CR1/2 or CR1 flatworm looking thing. Its main schtick is to attach itself to another creature and control it completely. The victim gets a DC15Will save to resist the control. I only used it once, and man was it scary.

The party had just gotten done fighting a group of bandits. I think the party was lvl5. One of these thing latched onto the Psywar once its host was killed, hijacked him, and turned around to just slaughter the party. Psywar chain tripper destroyed everyone.

That was the first time I realized the CR system was a complete and utter joke.

[Firechanter]

Sounds a bit like those slugs from Futurama.

Anyway, just wanted to say that the Athach's 3rd arm looks like it's just there to scratch his balls.

[TuggyNE]

I can not remember the name of it right now AFB, but is a CR1/2 or CR1 flatworm looking thing. Its main schtick is to attach itself to another creature and control it completely.

That sounds like the Puppeteer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/puppeteer.htm).

[shylocke]

These are reasonably named Moon Rats.

Oh god no! I forgot.about those things. Ever seen the movie or read the book rats? Its them varmints.

[Azoth]

That sounds like the Puppeteer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/puppeteer.htm).

That's it! Mean little critter to drop on your party when they aren't expecting them. Especially, if they are the type to try and figure out what is going on instead of just turning and beating down whoever is controlled.

[G.Cube]

Senmurvs have my vote for "What did Wizards make their monster designers smoke?"

In other news, any ooze and vermin. Living jello molds and bugs don't really hold Sword and WIZARD KILLS EVERYTHING fantasy that well.

:smallfrown:

[Petrocorus]

Sounds a bit like those slugs from Futurama.


Or like Goa'uld. So much potential!

[Steward]

I always liked the Rukaryzyll. It's name is quite nearly unpronounceable, and it looks absolutely ridiculous/utterly revolting (https://www.google.com/search?q=rukarazyll&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS551US551&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=-S3SJwsthdak8M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypt ed-tbn2.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9 GcRHH188CtUVsGodWDDjjOW5yICN1XKRQkwpv4GFzwiW0R-joyPo%253B400%253B364%253B26zpKHjl4ryp3M%253Bhttp% 25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.giantitp.com%25252Fforums% 25252Farchive%25252Findex.php%25253Ft-129769.html&source=iu&usg=__FlS0aITKbums860sc8YkRWftPQE%3D&sa=X&ei=OX__UsKaFeiayAGbwYCQDA&ved=0CDUQ9QEwAw&biw=1366&bih=653#facrc=_&imgrc=-S3SJwsthdak8M%253A%3B26zpKHjl4ryp3M%3Bhttp%253A%25 2F%252Fwww.iwozhere.com%252FSRD%252Fimages%252F882 68_620_153.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.giantitp.c om%252Fforums%252Farchive%252Findex.php%253Ft-129769.html%3B400%3B364).

[Silverbit]

Ythraks are a fairly cool concept, a big green flier that shoots sonic energy. I've never seen them used yet, but I'm going to attempt to include them in my next world. As a mount for a Raptoran lich :smallsmile:.

[Petrocorus]

I reallu like the concept of the Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm), never seen it used.


Ythraks are a fairly cool concept, .

What book are they in?

[jguy]

First one. Way in the back.

[shylocke]

Gravorgs. Who doesn't want a large sized antigravity raccoon.

And then there are nilbogs. My DM refuses to use them.

[BrokenChord]

I fought a Cockatrice, but this was 2nd edition. One of my party members was stoned (also turned to stone).

I've never fought an Achaierai, but I've summoned them.

I see what you did there. How magnificent.

On-topic... You know, they're common in high (heh) fantasy literature, but I've never actually been in a game where therianthropy was utilized. Had a few games where we were up against Chokers, though, the little bastards.

Also, Copper Dragons. I know they aren't something anybody failed to see, but... Does anyone actually use them?

[Malimar]

Also, Copper Dragons. I know they aren't something anybody failed to see, but... Does anyone actually use them?

As a player, I've encountered a grand total of four dragons: two red, one white, one brass. As a DM, I've used a silver and a white and a shen lung.

So I'd submit to this thread all True Dragons except those. I expect other tables have had different experiences, though. (I'd especially submit gem dragons and OA dragons and the other various non-core True Dragons, but that's probably more a consequence of core being used more than non-core than anything about the monsters themselves.)

[shylocke]

We had a player quit DND because of chokers. He was a human fighter lvl 8 and he ran into the dungeon to secure the first room. Stood in between for pillars. The rest of the party saw 8 hands come down and and the fighter dissapeared into 8 pieces. All got double crit on him. The party turned around and went on a different adventure because F THAT!

[shylocke]

As a player, I've encountered a grand total of four dragons: two red, one white, one brass. As a DM, I've used a silver and a white and a shen lung.

So I'd submit to this thread all True Dragons except those. I expect other tables have had different experiences, though. (I'd especially submit gem dragons and OA dragons and the other various non-core True Dragons, but that's probably more a consequence of core being used more than non-core than anything about the monsters themselves.)

I took a dragon down by getting thrown at it carrying a net. Then stunning fist once i got his wings. It almost died from the fall. Then our paladin got three crits in a row.

[BrokenChord]

As a player, I've encountered a grand total of four dragons: two red, one white, one brass. As a DM, I've used a silver and a white and a shen lung.

So I'd submit to this thread all True Dragons except those. I expect other tables have had different experiences, though. (I'd especially submit gem dragons and OA dragons and the other various non-core True Dragons, but that's probably more a consequence of core being used more than non-core than anything about the monsters themselves.)

Actually, gold, black, green, etc. and gems are pretty common. Moreso than Copper and, funnily enough, Brass, at any rate.

Why bronze gets so much love I'll never know.

[Vrock_Summoner]

We had a player quit DND because of chokers. He was a human fighter lvl 8 and he ran into the dungeon to secure the first room. Stood in between for pillars. The rest of the party saw 8 hands come down and and the fighter dissapeared into 8 pieces. All got double crit on him. The party turned around and went on a different adventure because F THAT!

I don't blame him. The idea that the DM rolled eight twenties in a row would smell like horsecrap to me too.

[MonochromeTiger]

I don't blame him. The idea that the DM rolled eight twenties in a row would smell like horsecrap to me too.

..yeah that DOES seem like a moment where players might tell their DM they want to see all the rolls in the open. the instant death probably doesn't help someone's mood even if they're certain the rolls are legitimate.

[TheThan]

... Anybody ever fight against a Belker? Or a Cockatrice? I've had entire campaigns dedicated to less-used creatures.


A friend’s group got TPKed by a cockatrice. those things are dangerous man. Granted this was the same campaign that took them the better part of an hour to kill a single bat.

[Vrock_Summoner]

A friend’s group got TPKed by a cockatrice. those things are dangerous man. Granted this was the same campaign that took them the better part of an hour to kill a single bat.

You make it seem like a joke, but those things are like different-CR Beholders sheerly for lethality... In their own confusing, Cockatrice-y way.

[shylocke]

..yeah that DOES seem like a moment where players might tell their DM they want to see all the rolls in the open. the instant death probably doesn't help someone's mood even if they're certain the rolls are legitimate.

We saw the dice. Small take and no DM screen. We all rolled in the same spot. But thend20 he uses is the orange one from the original DND box set and is so used that it is visible smaller and more rounded that a new d20.

[shylocke]

You make it seem like a joke, but those things are like different-CR Beholders sheerly for lethality... In their own confusing, Cockatrice-y way.

Think that's bad? Look at the catloblepas.

[Vrock_Summoner]

We saw the dice. Small take and no DM screen. We all rolled in the same spot. But thend20 he uses is the orange one from the original DND box set and is so used that it is visible smaller and more rounded that a new d20.

The di was loaded or your DM is a god of some sort.

... Either way, I like him.

[shylocke]

The di was loaded or your DM is a god of some sort.

... Either way, I like him.

Lol. The die has been used by others during a session. Its fully random. We saw 10 ones in a row last month. Almost all the goblins panicked and committed suicide when we kicked the door in.

[Jergmo]

I see what you did there. How magnificent.

On-topic... You know, they're common in high (heh) fantasy literature, but I've never actually been in a game where therianthropy was utilized. Had a few games where we were up against Chokers, though, the little bastards.

Also, Copper Dragons. I know they aren't something anybody failed to see, but... Does anyone actually use them?

I'm very fond of them. My early settings had more of a draconic focus and I had a couple ofCopper dragon NPCs who were benefactors of the party. The God of Humor and Trickery was one, in life.

I've seen or used every chromatic and metallic type of dragon except for... Brass, I think.

[ShriekingDrake]

Anyway, just wanted to say that the Athach's 3rd arm looks like it's just there to scratch his balls.

This gave me a laugh that I really needed. Thanks for that.

[Thurbane]

For some reason I want to throw a goblin mounted on an advanced (medium) cockatrice at the party now! :smallbiggrin:

[Jergmo]

I believe there are goggles that give you a bonus vs. gaze attacks. It is purely practical and not at all to give the goblin a hellacious sense of style.

[Vrock_Summoner]

I believe there are goggles that give you a bonus vs. gaze attacks. It is purely practical and not at all to give the goblin a hellacious sense of style.

You have officially entered my list of Top 5 Coolest People On This Board.

[AlanBruce]

Maybe this critter has been mentioned in the previous pages.

The Julajimus, from MM2.

It's a huge mandril like aberration that can assume the form of a tiny cuddly forest animal- like a squirrel or bunny.

Once the party approached a seeminly injured bunny, the bastard, as a free action switched back to his true form and...

Cue in sheer panic and shaky initiative rolling hands.

A nasty bugger that can roar and deafen anyone within a decent distance. needless to say, most of the party were casters and few passed the save as they tried to blast the thing away and rolled miss chances vs. verbal spells while the Julajimus went to town with the melees.

Be wary of the Julajimus.

[shylocke]

I believe there are goggles that give you a bonus vs. gaze attacks. It is purely practical and not at all to give the goblin a hellacious sense of style.

Blindfold of true darkness gives immunity to gaze and blind sight 60 ft

[TuggyNE]

Maybe this critter has been mentioned in the previous pages.

The Julajimus, from MM2.

It's a huge mandril like aberration that can assume the form of a tiny cuddly forest animal- like a squirrel or bunny.

Once the party approached a seeminly injured bunny, the bastard, as a free action switched back to his true form and...

Cue in sheer panic and shaky initiative rolling hands.

A nasty bugger that can roar and deafen anyone within a decent distance. needless to say, most of the party were casters and few passed the save as they tried to blast the thing away and rolled miss chances vs. verbal spells while the Julajimus went to town with the melees.

Be wary of the Julajimus.

Wow. That sounds like something from Lewis Carrol, right down to the name.

[AlanBruce]

Wow. That sounds like something from Lewis Carrol, right down to the name.

I used him in a fey themed campaign arc. He stole fey children and transformed them into Meenlocks (MM2 again).

Unoriginally enough, he was referred to as the Child Stealer.

But the party sent him packing back to his own reality after a brutal scuffle.

[Talakeal]

Lol. The die has been used by others during a session. Its fully random. We saw 10 ones in a row last month. Almost all the goblins panicked and committed suicide when we kicked the door in.

There has got to be something funny going on there. The odds of that happening are somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 TRILLION to one against. That's getting into a thousand monkeys playing D&D for a thousand years territory.

[shylocke]

Law of averages

[Vrock_Summoner]

Law of averages

Is a.v.e.r.a.g.e.s. some kind of acronym for replacing a well-known di with a loaded one? Because as pointed out, those chances really are completely insane. Specifically about a 0.000000000390625% chance. I might be a zero off because percentages are weird, but that should convey the unlikeliness of that phenomenon.

... Either way, I still like your DM.

[Dr. Cliché]

There has got to be something funny going on there. The odds of that happening are somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 TRILLION to one against. That's getting into a thousand monkeys playing D&D for a thousand years territory.

"Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten."

:smallwink:

[Petrocorus]

When i read threads like this one, i wished there would be a "Like" button on this forum?

[Jergmo]

Can I get a shout out for the Delver? (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG39.jpg)

[shylocke]

Can I get a shout out for the Delver? (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG39.jpg)

DELVER! I was just reading that entry last night

[Arbane]

My favorite "lolwut" picture in the MM is the Ethereal Filcher. I've never used one (or seen one used), but they are hilarious-looking.

That's the one with four arms and one leg, right?

Someone pointed out that it's obviously the reason people keep losing single socks.

[Dungeon_Crawler]

I thinks a reason these monsters are forgotten is that Wotc made these charecters from scratch, rather than dragons and goblins, which were here before dnd.

[Arbane]

I thinks a reason these monsters are forgotten is that Wotc made these charecters from scratch, rather than dragons and goblins, which were here before dnd.

Eh, they also made up beholders, mindflayers, and rust monsters, all of which have stuck around and become fairly popular.

[Vrock_Summoner]

Eh, they also made up beholders, mindflayers, and rust monsters, all of which have stuck around and become fairly popular.

Yes, but we remember those monsters because they're either extremely prominent in the fluff or because they're foils for the might of casters (seriously, it's not like low-op players think wizards aren't OP; the damage of stronger evocations leave S&B Fighters with mouths agape). You don't remember a lot of monsters (even in Core) simply because they're generic dungeon baddies, with no distinguishing "boss monster" traits and no foils to casterificness. Goblins and such are easily remembered because they're common in fantasy. Admittedly, I don't understand why people think about Kobolds, Gnolls, and Bugbears so much, but I just think that's a culture thing because of earlier editions.

[nedz]

That's the one with four arms and one leg, right?

Someone pointed out that it's obviously the reason people keep losing single socks.

I ran an Ethereal Filcher once when the party were down a coal mine. It was entertaining but not something you would use a lot, if indeed more than once.

It falls into the category of trick monsters which were much more common in previous editions, though 3.5 does contain a few.

[Talakeal]

That's the one with four arms and one leg, right?

Someone pointed out that it's obviously the reason people keep losing single socks.

That is both brilliant and hilarious. Llol.

[Bronk]

Also, Copper Dragons. I know they aren't something anybody failed to see, but... Does anyone actually use them?

One of my characters encountered a young copper dragon who had been trapped as a baby and chained as a guardian in a dungeon. When I found her, she snapped a bit, then started scraping up a bunch of trash underneath her as if it was a horde. It was so pitiful I didn't even mind that I got hit with acid breath, I let her go and diplomanced her so hard that she joined the party. She still makes half hearted jokes, since she was out of practice for so long, and I've made it a priority to resurrect her deceased father.

[Thurbane]

I thinks a reason these monsters are forgotten is that Wotc made these charecters from scratch, rather than dragons and goblins, which were here before dnd.
I always get a strange sense of satisfaction when I only use monsters from real world mythology in an adventure.

[hamishspence]

Admittedly, I don't understand why people think about Kobolds, Gnolls, and Bugbears so much, but I just think that's a culture thing because of earlier editions.

"Kobold" and "Bugbear" are words that predate D&D considerably.

"Gnoll" in the context of "monster" is a bit newer - with the prototype being "gnole" which appeared in a Lord Dunsany story in 1912.

[Courier6]

There has got to be something funny going on there. The odds of that happening are somewhere in the neighborhood of 250 TRILLION to one against. That's getting into a thousand monkeys playing D&D for a thousand years territory.

Do you realize that no matter the result of eight consecutive d20 rolls something incredibly unlikely has happened? so rolling 12, 14, 8, 2, 2, 10, 13, 8 is a one in 25 billion chance, just as likely as eight ones in a row. It's actually really odd to think about.

[Talakeal]

Do you realize that no matter the result of eight consecutive d20 rolls something incredibly unlikely has happened? so rolling 12, 14, 8, 2, 2, 10, 13, 8 is a one in 25 billion chance, just as likely as eight ones in a row. It's actually really odd to think about.

Sure, but there is no significance to that sequence. The odds of rolling any specific sequence of numbers on ten d20 are one in 250 trillion, which means 10 of a kind of any number is only one in twenty five trillion

[Harrow]

And then there are nilbogs. My DM refuses to use them.

My DM refuses to stop using them.

[Jergmo]

What is a nilbog? I've never seen them referenced before.

[ZamielVanWeber]

A goblin that is healed by damage and damaged by healing.

[TuggyNE]

A goblin that is healed by damage and damaged by healing.

That reminds me, what happens to one if it lands on the Positive Energy Plane?

[BrokenChord]

That reminds me, what happens to one if it lands on the Positive Energy Plane?

Well, duh. It obviously gets temporary damage. :smalltongue:

[nedz]

That reminds me, what happens to one if it lands on the Positive Energy Plane?

The Positive Energy Plane explodes.

[Zombulian]

I reallu like the concept of the Unbodied (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/unbodied.htm), never seen it used.



What book are they in?

Don't know if someone else answered this.
Yrthak are from the core MM actually. I guess people get too tired looking through all the way to Y to appreciate the SONIC PTERODACTYL.

[Dr. Cliché]

I think the Skiurids have some of my favourite art:

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130419094025/warriorsofmyth/images/e/e2/Skiurid-1-.jpg

I really must use these guys some time.

[zephyrkinetic]

That's the one with four arms and one leg, right?

Someone pointed out that it's obviously the reason people keep losing single socks.

Could be, though I always blamed Galius Zed's people.

[CrazyYanmega]

Don't know if someone else answered this.
Yrthak are from the core MM actually. I guess people get too tired looking through all the way to Y to appreciate the SONIC PTERODACTYL.

A Sonic Pterodactyl that, according to Tome of Battle flavor art, can be used as a MOUNT.

Anyway, has anyone used Ixitxachitls in their campaigns? For those of you who don't know what they are, they are evil little stingrays. I once tried to make a character out of one, but was shot down.

[Hurnn]

I like antlions. I lost a party of 4 lvl 8s to two of them.

Or phantom fungus.
Shocker lizards ,man, shocker lizards. Make a partially water filled cave and put pirate treasure in the back. Have hidden shocker lizards dens hidden in the walls. Good size chamber could hold a fairly large colony. When the party approaches the treasure and enters the water the lizards attack. Give an listen and Wilderness lore check to notice the clicking sound and recognize it. Sudden bright blue flash. Colony of five lizards can do 10d8 electric in a 25" radius once per round. Our DM allows for water and metal conductivity in such situations.

One of our wizards got reincarnated as one once. Then the DM accidentally gave has 3 eggs. So when they hatched they thought he was the parent. He also took another shocker lizard familiar before they hatched. 5lizards in a party is funny. Especially when one is technically the party leader.


I'm pretty sure there was an official encounter either in a module or an encounter book that used them in a cave with a shambling mound :smalleek:

[Brother Numsie]

I'm currently running a D&D:Next campaign where I use old Hackmaster modules as my inspiration and there are many many classic non-standard D&D monsters in them like the "Ixitxachitl" and "Ixzan" (their freshwater counterparts), for more information on them you can check out this site: http://www.lomion.de/cmm/ixitixza.php
These are really fun fish monsters to throw at your pc's, but Hackmaster has it's own slew of weird monsters like the "Gummyfiend" which is a multitentacled multicolored gummy monster (basically an ooze with psoudopods) which becomes edible once completely dead, or the "Gelatinous Orifice Seeker" which is a slug like monster that spreads itself thin on places where it's most likely to encounter an orifice to crawl into and lay its eggs...

[Inevitability]

I really like gelatinous cubes. Especially when templated to the max.

Half-dragon chameleon corpse gelatinous cube? Aw yeah.

[Necroticplague]

One I've only very recently found out about: the sharn. An odd appearence/physical set-up (three heads, three groups of three arms, their eyes are on said hands, only facial features are nostrils and mouths, looks kinda like Venom decided to get creative), lack of copyability (not allowed to polymorph into them, and they cant be polymorphed), an action economy advantage. Plus, despite being chaotic in nature (so much so that law is actually their weakness), their actually pretty much good guys. Their main task is trying to make sure a race of incredibly malevolent uber-sorcerors don't spread too much into the world. They aren't aggressive, and its entirely plausible to have as allies (though their ECL is a bit high to normally have as PCs). And their reproduction has odd implications: every single sharn was, at some point,multiple sapient creatures. It starts at three, and can go as high as 11. So one of these things could very well be, at least in part, someone you knew, who took up the noble cause of the defense of the world.

[ChocoSuisse]

Transposer, from the Revised Tome of Horrors PDF (which is a gold mine).

This guy is a changeling with tentacles that magically links to you, then every damage you deal to him heals him instead and hurt you.
You definitely don't want to fight this guy when you're alone and failed the Fort roll!

[Brookshw]

I'd like to nominate this thing:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ff_gallery/50102.jpg

The gambit of ridiculous looking LG things is simply WONDERFUL!

I've recently fallen in love with Magmin because they don't necessarily realize other races don't have the same relationship to fire that they do. I'm just thinking of Magmin coming across a party, wanting to help them, so setting lots and lots of things on fire with the best of intentions. "The strange creatures must be very uncomfortable sleeping in these oversize sacks. I'm sure they'll be much happier if we light the sacks on fire".

[TiaC]

I really like gelatinous cubes. Especially when templated to the max.

Half-dragon chameleon corpse gelatinous cube? Aw yeah.

I'm fonder of removing a template from them. In Savage Species, you can find the gelatinous template. So, just remove that template from the gelatinous cube to get the Cube.

[Wacky89]

Rukanyr from Fiend Folio is pretty nasty too, haven't met one yet myself.
It has 10 attacks, looks like a big scorpion with 3 mouths 6 claws.
It has a armor plating that crushes any weapons it get's hit by (Reflex save for no dmg to the weapon).
It deafens 60 ft roar, and can deal a bunch of sonic dmg to one target.

[Dr. Cliché]

I've recently fallen in love with Magmin because they don't necessarily realize other races don't have the same relationship to fire that they do. I'm just thinking of Magmin coming across a party, wanting to help them, so setting lots and lots of things on fire with the best of intentions. "The strange creatures must be very uncomfortable sleeping in these oversize sacks. I'm sure they'll be much happier if we light the sacks on fire".

Can I please use this? :smallbiggrin:

[Inevitability]

I'm fonder of removing a template from them. In Savage Species, you can find the gelatinous template. So, just remove that template from the gelatinous cube to get the Cube.

Amusingly, it still can engulf. And it is faster than its gelatinous counterpart.

[Graypairofsocks]

One I've only very recently found out about: the sharn. An odd appearence/physical set-up (three heads, three groups of three arms, their eyes are on said hands, only facial features are nostrils and mouths, looks kinda like Venom decided to get creative), lack of copyability (not allowed to polymorph into them, and they cant be polymorphed), an action economy advantage. Plus, despite being chaotic in nature (so much so that law is actually their weakness), their actually pretty much good guys. Their main task is trying to make sure a race of incredibly malevolent uber-sorcerors don't spread too much into the world. They aren't aggressive, and its entirely plausible to have as allies (though their ECL is a bit high to normally have as PCs). And their reproduction has odd implications: every single sharn was, at some point,multiple sapient creatures. It starts at three, and can go as high as 11. So one of these things could very well be, at least in part, someone you knew, who took up the noble cause of the defense of the world.


For anyone who doesn't know the race of sorcerers the Sharn (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mof_gallery/MonFaePG77.jpg) is keeping imprisoned is the Phae (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mof_gallery/MonFaePG70.jpg)rimm (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/pgtf_gallery/78885.jpg) (found here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a)* and in Lost Empires of Faerun).

The Phaerimm also has a interesting ability that allows them to cast their sorcerer spells as spell like abilities.

They also have age categories like dragons and gain sorcerer spell casting as they age.


* at the back of the update PDF.

[Spore]

Uhm....

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/dnd/mauler.jpg

Wat?

[Eldan]

Uhm....

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/dnd/mauler.jpg

Wat?

A classic Goetic demon that shows up in several real-life medieval grimoires. The thing to remember is that these appearances are probably more symbolic than anything else. It would work perfectly fine as something a summoner sees in his circle.

REally, the only mistake was making it a monster instead of a vestige.

[Graypairofsocks]

Uhm....

http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/dan/dnd/mauler.jpg

Wat?

That is the Roving Mauler from Tome of Magic, it was related to the Buer Vestige.

It is based on something from real life myth, but I forget what.


A classic Goetic demon that shows up in several real-life medieval grimoires. The thing to remember is that these appearances are probably more symbolic than anything else. It would work perfectly fine as something a summoner sees in his circle.
So that is where it was from (it was also named Buer).


REally, the only mistake was making it a monster instead of a vestige.

It is a vestige(and a creature).

[Eldan]

Reading up on him on Wiki, apparently, his most common appearance is as an archer or centaur, since he also represents the sign of Sagittarius. The five legs are to represent that he can walk in all directions.

[Brookshw]

Can I please use this? :smallbiggrin:

Why of course!

[Thealtruistorc]

I'd have to say the Senmurv from fiend folio. I just cannot take it seriously and as such it is never even considered. This quote from a Cracked.com D&D article says it all.


The Senmurv is what Toby Keith becomes every full moon, and as such it fails to impress us on every conceivable level. The only thing more ridiculous than picturing this beast clawing feebly through the sky like a Technicolor ValueJet, is imagining it trying to stand upright on two hind legs never meant for the task.

[Blackfang108]

And there's always were-rats... And werebunnies. I love werebunnies.

So do I. Especially with hot sauce.

[Graypairofsocks]

I'd have to say the Senmurv from fiend folio. I just cannot take it seriously and as such it is never even considered. This quote from a Cracked.com D&D article says it all.

The Senmurv is (distantly?) based on the Simurgh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simurgh)(which lacks the rainbow colors).

The Cracked article is kind of shoddy as it appears like he didn't read the stat block for some of the monsters.

[VoxRationis]

Metallic dragons. They have an Eastern feel that doesn't fit with a lot of my campaigns, are really, really willing to talk rather than fight, and frankly, it's hard enough justifying why the PCs need to do something without powerful shapeshifting champions of righteousness running about everywhere.

[Erik Vale]

Because their dealing with all the shapeshifting champions of evil. I mean their own evil selves.

[Necroticplague]

The Senmurv is (distantly?) based on the Simurgh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simurgh)(which lacks the rainbow colors).

The Cracked article is kind of shoddy as it appears like he didn't read the stat block for some of the monsters.

The point about the article is only ones that have surface concepts that are silly or stupid, with nothing about power levels (otherwise, atropals and demilichs wouldn't be anywhere on that list).

[CrazyYanmega]

Anyone ever fought a chain golem? They're freaking awesome looking, but I don't think they're used much.

[Dr. Cliché]

Metallic dragons. They have an Eastern feel that doesn't fit with a lot of my campaigns, are really, really willing to talk rather than fight, and frankly, it's hard enough justifying why the PCs need to do something without powerful shapeshifting champions of righteousness running about everywhere.

I know what you mean. The Gold Dragon in particular just looks... silly to me. It's wings seem impractical for anything above water, and all those whiskers/tentacles on its face don't help the image.

My real problem though is that metallic dragons are stronger than chromatic ones - as well as being more intelligent and able to disguise themselves as humanoids.


Because their dealing with all the shapeshifting champions of evil. I mean their own evil selves.

See, this always strikes me as odd. As above, metallic dragons are stronger than equivalent chromatic ones (not an immense difference - usually just a point or two of CR, but still). Add to that their superior intelligence (Red Dragons reach 26, whilst Gold Dragons get to 32), shapeshifting and greater ability to cooperate (I'm guessing a little with the last one), and surely the metallic dragons should be winning? And, the chromatic dragons should be the ones struggling against an army of stronger, more intelligent dragons on the side of good.

[HighWater]

See, this always strikes me as odd. As above, metallic dragons are stronger than equivalent chromatic ones (not an immense difference - usually just a point or two of CR, but still). Add to that their superior intelligence (Red Dragons reach 26, whilst Gold Dragons get to 32), shapeshifting and greater ability to cooperate (I'm guessing a little with the last one), and surely the metallic dragons should be winning? And, the chromatic dragons should be the ones struggling against an army of stronger, more intelligent dragons on the side of good.
An easy enough fix: the chromatic dragons breed considerably faster. Then there's the endless stream of vile monsters from the MMs that might team up on good dragons, and of course there's the infinite procession of WeWillEndTheWorld-cultists and adventuring opportunists who occassionally off a metal dragon or two.

The same problem also emerges when examining the forces of the heavens and the forces of hell/the abyss. Sheer numbers tend to be the most obvious fix.

Personally, I dislike dragons being color-coded for your convenience. Might just "undo" all metal dragons and make the chromatics range across the scale on the individual level...

On Topic: the Monster Manual has some interesting categories (Lovecraftian Horrors, Classic Fantasy, etc.) that don't necessarely exists well together. Most campaigns follow a theme as mixing them all up can get suspension-of-disbelief breaking really fast. In my current (and first) DM campaign, I created a couple of massive lakes and a great river that had a human/orc metropolis built on the coast. The waters needed to be populated. It wasn't until then that I noticed just how many awesome underwater intelligent civilization-building races there were... Most you will rarely, if ever, see in a non-aquatic campaign.

[Dr. Cliché]

An easy enough fix: the chromatic dragons breed considerably faster.

Trouble is, even if evil dragons breed faster, it takes literally centuries for them to mature - more than enough time for the good dragons to hunt them down whilst they're still weak (even if they don't kill them all, they should be able to stay on top quite easily).

Also, most young chromatic dragons have a lot to fear from a variety of monsters (and adventurers) - not just good dragons.


Then there's the endless stream of vile monsters from the MMs that might team up on good dragons

Granted, but then you've also got other good monsters who might help out - and off the occasional evil dragon.


and of course there's the infinite procession of WeWillEndTheWorld-cultists and adventuring opportunists who occassionally off a metal dragon or two.

True, but then the majority of adventurers go after the evil dragons - and many succeed in killing them.


The same problem also emerges when examining the forces of the heavens and the forces of hell/the abyss. Sheer numbers tend to be the most obvious fix.

Perhaps, but I doubt such creatures take anywhere near as long as dragons to reach their full power.


Personally, I dislike dragons being color-coded for your convenience. Might just "undo" all metal dragons and make the chromatics range across the scale on the individual level...

I know what you mean. Personally, I don't mind too much about scale-colour being linked to breath-weapon type (though nor would I mind if it was removed), but strictly linking scale-colour to alignment always bugged me.

[HighWater]

Trouble is, even if evil dragons breed faster, it takes literally centuries for them to mature - more than enough time for the good dragons to hunt them down whilst they're still weak (even if they don't kill them all, they should be able to stay on top quite easily).
Only true when you assume they start with equal numbers and metallics are therefore are "on top". And remember, that although the odds are in favor of a metal dragon in a 1v1 fight, there is still a considerable chance it will lose. If we assume that for each 3 chromatic dragons killed, 1 metal dragon bites the dust (totally a number I made up, I'm not gonna do the math on this one because it doesn't matter), and also assume that the procreation difference is roughly equal to that ratio, it really does balance out. After all, chromodragons will also hunt young metal dragons, perhaps even more fanatically than their metal counterparts (cause, you know, evil). As long as all that is taken into the species' death rates, and the birth rates happen to match, neither side will overrun the other without outside intervention.
Basically, it's often how matters are "balanced" in D&D: good individuals are stronger, evil individuals are more plenty.

Also, the real reason good (dragons) is/are having a hard time against evil (dragons): because the fluff says so. It's basically, just because that's the... errr... Cliché. :smallbiggrin:


I know what you mean. Personally, I don't mind too much about scale-colour being linked to breath-weapon type (though nor would I mind if it was removed), but strictly linking scale-colour to alignment always bugged me.
Scale colour and breath weapons makes sense, being basically seperate species (although dragons aren't really a species seperate from any other species, seeing as you can half-dragon anything). I can understand good/evil dichotomy being attached to species, but it ruins part of what makes dragons unpredictable: they are very intelligent and have their own plans, kinda pointless to be able to tell from the outside whether they're gonna screw you over or not...

[PraxisVetli]

Rukanyr from Fiend Folio is pretty nasty too, haven't met one yet myself.
It has 10 attacks, looks like a big scorpion with 3 mouths 6 claws.
It has a armor plating that crushes any weapons it get's hit by (Reflex save for no dmg to the weapon).
It deafens 60 ft roar, and can deal a bunch of sonic dmg to one target.

Man, I dm'd a campaign where the Far Realm was launching an invasion on Prime Material, with Skybleeders and Rukanyr as main siege engines.
They're stupid awesome.
Scared the crap outta my players when the tank charged it and her weapon shattered.
I'm so absolutely in love with them!
Plus the look ridiculously intimidating.

[Dr. Cliché]

Also, the real reason good (dragons) is/are having a hard time against evil (dragons): because the fluff says so. It's basically, just because that's the... errr... Cliché. :smallbiggrin:


I see what you did there... :smallwink:


Scale colour and breath weapons makes sense, being basically seperate species (although dragons aren't really a species seperate from any other species, seeing as you can half-dragon anything). I can understand good/evil dichotomy being attached to species, but it ruins part of what makes dragons unpredictable: they are very intelligent and have their own plans, kinda pointless to be able to tell from the outside whether they're gonna screw you over or not...

Indeed - it would perhaps be more interesting if players never knew whether or not they could trust the dragon they're talking too. At the very least, it would keep them on their toes.

[Graypairofsocks]

The point about the article is only ones that have surface concepts that are silly or stupid, with nothing about power levels (otherwise, atropals and demilichs wouldn't be anywhere on that list).

Actually he does mock the power levels of the Atropal and Demilich as much as their appearance.