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GoodbyeSoberDay
2014-02-13, 07:46 PM
Hi Playground,

TL;DR: Please help me with Pathfinder-only Sorcerer spell and feat selection. I've read the PF-centric guides; they're a bit sparse and I'm not sure I agree with everything. I'm also quite familiar with the 3.5 guides, and while Sorcerers did get buffed in PF a lot of the tasty 3.5 spells they'd use are not present.

I'm currently playing a Human (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human) Sage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/sage) Sorcerer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer). We just leveled up from 1 to 2.

Character idea: The campaign is Way of the Wicked (no spoilers!), and in keeping with that my character is a functioning psychopath. This means he's a bit impulsive and prone to violence. Nevertheless he's a team player who will do what he can to further the goals of Our Father Below. I plan to fill standard wizard roles like transportation, divination, (some) lore, buffing, debuffing, battlefield control and the like.

The plan is for him to become a spontaneous batman wizard - in the traditional Logic Ninja sense, not the paranoid divination-spamming astral projecting sense. I already DM a campaign similar to that; this game is much more low key. I will pick up Paragon Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/paragon-surge) and use it to get spells known, but that's pretty much the most powerful trick I'm going to consider. And honestly it's not even that great until higher levels, when you cease caring about third level slots and the utility spells are more attractive.
Feats:His current feats are Toughness and Half Elf Heritage. I'm willing to change Toughness, and I think the DM is okay with retraining things as long as we do it now. Half Elf Heritage is for Paragon Surge, so it would take a strong argument to change that one. Any thoughts on future feats? I know I'm going to take Quicken Spell eventually, but what other metamagic is good without much in the way of reducers? What's a good spell to use Magical Lineage on? I've heard good things about a Dazing (maybe Persistent) Flaming Sphere, since you can try to daze folks as a move action off a reflex save. It would come online much later, considering the low level, but that's true of most spell/metamagic combinations.
Side note on traits: In WotW you get one "campaign" trait which is the crime you committed, one general trait, and one trait later. My character's crime was Forgery; it adds Linguistics as a class skill, and you get +3 to Linguistics checks related to Forgery. It basically means that I can invest a few ranks in Linguistics, be the party translator without using spell slots, and whenever we disguise ourselves as various officials (which will be, like, always) we'll have proper documentation. Good times.
Spells: His current spells are Color Spray and Silent Image. Aside from getting Identify from the bloodline, I'm thinking about Grease, Vanish, Mage Armor, Charm Person, Shield, and others...

As far as second level spells go, aside from Invisibility I'm thinking about Pyrotechnics (+ Bullseye Lantern), Reloading Hands, Flaming Sphere, Web, False Life and Shatter.

Any thoughts? What great spells am I missing? Am I a fool to rely on Paragon Surge for low level utility spells like Communal Ant Haul?
Items: Right now the party is going in on some healing wands (one Infernal Healing, one CLW for the good-aligned damage). So, aside from that, scrolls, +int, +saves, and a Mnemonic Vestment (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/vestment-mnemonic), what are good PF items?
Campaign expectations: The other party members are a skill-focused Inquisitor, a rogue, and a gunslinger. I also figure the main antagonists will be Paladins with high saves but low touch AC. This is why I'm thinking Reloading Hands will get a lot of use. Are there any other good low-level buffs out there? Of course I'll be getting Haste and Fly as well, but that's further down the road.
End-game thoughts, subverting a devilish contract: It seems like Way of the Wicked starts out quite railroad-y (sign this contract that makes this powerful NPC your master, and then do what he tells you to do, or die) and then opens up later once the players get more powerful. But I'm not sure how open it gets since we signed a pretty strict contract:

Behold on the [date] a perpetual Compact is made between Cardinal Adrastus Thorn (hereafter the Master) and those who would bound to him as his acolytes (hereafter the Bound). Both the Master and the Bound shall hold fast and true to this Compact through all trial and tribulation. By blood and soul the Bound commit to the Compact and swear that it shall never be undone.
The Bound shall know, understand and maintain the Four Loyalties.
The First Loyalty is to their patron and God – mighty Asmodeus, First among the Fallen, Prince of the Nine Hells, our Father Below. They shall do all that be done to further His worship and His glory.
The Second Loyalty is to their master – He who is called the Cardinal Adrastus Thorn, High Priest of Asmodeus in Talingarde. They shall do the Master no harm and obey his every commandment as long as those commandments do not clash with their First Loyalty.
The Third Loyalty is to their companions – the other Bound who server alongside them. The Bound shall deal with each other fairly and honorably as long as doing so does not clash with their first or second loyalties. All treasure, wealth and reward garnered in their exploits will be appropriately shared among the Bound who aided in its acquisition. Should any fallen Bound be replaced by potential acolyte, such will be brought before the Master at earliest opportunity for judgment and signing of similar Compact. Prior to such, regarding revelation of information, the Bound are reminded of the Second Loyalty.
The Fourth Loyalty is to themselves – for Asmodeus is the Lord of Ambition and all who serve him should strive to become great and powerful in his service as long as doing so does not clash with their first, second or third loyalties. By their weakness, ye shall know the unworthy.
The Bound swear that they cleave to and uphold the Four Loyalties even in the face of death and damnation. The Master swears that as long as the Four Loyalties are upheld, he shall reward the Bound as they deserve for their deeds. Thus it is written, and thus it shall be.
We being of sound mind and free will do so swear to let they who violates this Compact know all the wrath of Hell unending. Signed, [name]

To be fair, I understand from an OOC perspective why the contract is there, and I appreciate its existence, but it does end up complicating future power struggles quite a bit. So with that in mind, how does one subvert the agreement later on?

One thought is that the contract was signed under duress - literally sign this or die - which might violate the "free will" clause and invalidate the contract, but since Asmodeus is probably the arbiter of the contract I doubt that will work.

My only other thought would be to wait for the boss man to order us to do some disastrously stupid plan, then invoke the first loyalty to backstab him. To be honest, that's not even a subversion; it's clearly intended in the contract for us to "enact a change of leadership" if it's better for Boss #1. But the Cardinal seemed smart enough, so we might be waiting quite a while for him to make some terrible error in judgement. Of course, my character is in no hurry to kill allies, but he likes options, and his INT score is higher than mine, so I ask the Playground for advice.
Thanks for your help!

NightbringerGGZ
2014-02-13, 08:07 PM
So I don't really have many problems with your selections. You're choosing some of the standard spells and a few you thing will be useful, and I can't really give you recommendations that wouldn't be spoilers and an unfair advantage.

Personally, I think the Arcane Bloodline is stronger than the Sage variant but the APs weren't built with 100% optimization in mind so that's not really a big deal. My only thought is that if you want to play a generalist wizard, why not just play a wizard? The Sorcerer is locking you to a limited spell selection, while a Wizard can learn and prepare a completely different set of spells each day. Plus with Pearls of Power and your Arcane Bond you wind up having a pretty decent number of spells per day anyway.

Other than that your build seems perfectly playable as is.

watchwood
2014-02-13, 08:18 PM
Your build seems reasonably thought out so far. For Magical Lineage, I suggest considering slapping hand or magic missile, and combining it with the Toppling Spell metamagic. You'll have either a lot of or infinite KD effects as you need them, which is very handy to have. And thematically speaking, you can fluff them as batarangs.

I also suggest that you'll want to pick up at least a few direct damage spells.

Improved Initiative and Combat Casting can both be good feats to have, as are the Spell Penetration line and Spell Focus (if you have a school you want to concentrate on).

khachaturian
2014-02-13, 10:07 PM
if you really want to boost your utility, maybe the razmiran priest archetype is something worth looking into- access to all the spells on the cleric, druid, ranger, paladin, inquisitor list depending on the availability of scrolls. and another reason to stick with charisma-based casting instead of sage, which really doesn't seem to give you much other than skill points.

for spells, i would look at

1. anticipate peril- isn't as good as nerveskitter, but still useful
2. fog cloud- may be more reliable than pyrotechnics

Akolbi
2014-02-13, 10:51 PM
If you want flexibility, see if you can retrain as a wordcaster, they have TONS of flexibility, and with a favored class bonus plus the ability to have the extra word feat, you can get a lot of that generalist flexibility you wanted, while keeping what i assume is a selling point of spontaneous casting.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2014-02-14, 12:15 AM
Thanks for the feedback. Responding to a couple of points:

Razmiran Priest and Wordcaster were out of the picture, so yeah.

I've played wizards, erudites, and archivists before. I wanted a little less bookkeeping, IC and OOC. And besides, with Paragon Surge, Sorcerers are even more versatile than wizards... at even levels, anyway.

Sage vs. Arcane Bloodline:I understand that Sage is not as good as regular Arcane, but IMO that's mostly because Arcane Sorcerers can pick up Improved Familiar to get a mephit, and I didn't think a familiar really fit with this character. In this sort of party, where people are going to find a way to backstab each other eventually, a bonded item is likely more of a bad thing. I also like the skill points, and the Inquisitor in the group has good social skills already. Again, I understand that Arcane > Sage in a vacuum, but the difference is small, and int-based fit the character more.
Toppling Spell: It seems nice at first glance, especially since it's only +1, but isn't the CMB a bit low? It's basically the same as a high-strength meleer (BaB = CL, STR = INT) with no feats or other specialization trying to trip people. The big difference is that you can have multiple targets, but meleers can get a free attack and do real damage. Also, couldn't I just take Web and Black Tentacles if I wanted to target CMD?
Anticipate Peril: This seems like a very niche spell. If it was similar to the 3.5 version I'd take it in a heartbeat, but a minutes/level standard action buff means that you can only really use it if you know the enemy is coming in a very short window, and even then it's at the bottom of a long list of buffs/preparatory spells you'd want to cast. What if this spell known was displacing, say, Shield as a spell known? I think I'd rather have the +4 AC.
Fog Cloud: Blinding particular folks in a cone is much better than limiting vision for everyone. And yes, this is feasible with a bullseye lantern as the fire source. But they're both good spells...

NightbringerGGZ
2014-02-14, 07:52 AM
The trick with Toppling Spell is to combine it with one of the traits like Wayang Spell Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata) or Magical Lineage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage).

A Toppling Magic Missile that only uses a 1st level slot isn't too bad, especially once you have 5 ranged trip attempts in a single round. I also seem to recall a Cantrip somebody has used Toppling with before, to basically give them something to do on rounds they aren't casting a spell.

You're right about the differences between Sage and Arcane being minor, I just wanted to point them out. And I can understand not wanting to do book keeping =).

watchwood
2014-02-14, 08:27 AM
The cantrip you had in mind was Slapping Hand. Deals 1 Force damage on a touch attack.

avr
2014-02-14, 09:14 AM
Create Pit is a great 2nd level spell. Web is much easier to break thru in PF than in 3.5, Glitterdust has a save per round to recover, Pyrotechnics needs a fire which isn't always at the ready, but unless they're good enough at flying to fly straight up the pit should hold them nicely. Occasionally useful for utility too.

Air Bubble is like Water breathing but 1st level. Very handy, albeit not quite so much as Vanish or Invisibility.

Alarm is still good to get at some point.

If you don't trust your 'friends' to keep you safe Keep Watch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/keep-watch) is worth getting also.

NightbringerGGZ
2014-02-14, 05:34 PM
The cantrip you had in mind was Slapping Hand. Deals 1 Force damage on a touch attack.

Thanks Watchwood.

DrDeth
2014-02-14, 05:57 PM
Toughness is really good for you. Ok, for the first few levels, you can use the bonus point for 'favored class' for HP, but after lvl 4 you will want it for spells, spells, and more spells. Your party has plenty of skills (and your bloodline does great here too), but I'd want some extra HP. Besides in low levels, you need 'em.

There's a Varisian campaign trait ( Sandpoint faithful) that gives you an extra HP per healing spell cast on you.

watchwood
2014-02-14, 07:26 PM
I'd take the bonus spells right from level 1. Even knowing more cantrips can be handier then 1 HP each.

DrDeth
2014-02-16, 02:12 PM
I'd take the bonus spells right from level 1. Even knowing more cantrips can be handier then 1 HP each.

Umm, no. I know that at higher levels, HP are kinda moot, but not in the first few levels, not by any means.

Spore
2014-02-16, 02:20 PM
I'd take the bonus spells right from level 1. Even knowing more cantrips can be handier then 1 HP each.

That creature over there has stabilized. If only I knew the Bleed spell now! What? A dagger? Which side goes where?