Negating the ACP.

[ScrambledBrains]

So...a bit of background-I have never played a heavy armor wearing class...ever. The closest I have come is many forays into light armor. I cannot stand that damn ACP.

Brief Rant:

I mean, for Pelor's sake, who in their right mind would punish the poor schmoe in heavy armor by making it so the instant he's submerged in water, his player might as well re-roll? Oh, right...WOTC.

Note: I'm ignoring Clerics in the above. They can just Water Walk, as Durkon had shown quite a few comics back.

That said, I have decided to venture outside my comfort zone in my next campaign and finally play a heavy-armor wearing class(A Homebrew class, mind you, but one who would rely on heavy armor). However...that damn ACP still grates on me, so that is the reason for this post.

What would be the best, most efficient way to use a heavy armor(Let's say Banded Mail or Full Plate, so -6) but negate the associated ACP? I know about the Heavy Armor Optimization feats in Races of Stone, but nothing else. Help me, Playground; You're my only hope! :smallbiggrin:

[weckar]

Here is what you do:

Whenever an ACP-affected skill needs to be rolled, you take off the armor and strap it to your back, assuming that won't encumber you too much.

[anacalgion]

Mithril's a good place to start. That'll take out a fair bit of the penalty. Other than that, it shouldn't really be a problem. Maybe grab a potion of waterbreathing if you're really worried. -1 or 2 isn't really huge.

[ScrambledBrains]

Mithril's a good place to start. That'll take out a fair bit of the penalty. Other than that, it shouldn't really be a problem. Maybe grab a potion of waterbreathing if you're really worried. -1 or 2 isn't really huge.

Ah, Mithril...I knew there was something obvious I was forgetting. :smallwink:

Thanks for that, anacalgion. :smallsmile:

[weckar]

Adding to my previous advice, you may want to look into quick-release armor. It takes a little longer to put on, but can be taken off with a single action.

[Calimehter]

MiC has an ability called Called (heh) which . . . kinda sort helps, in that you can leave your armor off until the very moment you need it, and so can avoid the ACP in non-combat situations. Plus, auto-donning your armor in one turn has a cool Iron-man thing going for it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There are a number of special materials and several enhancements that reduce ACP. Right off the top of my head; getting the armor made of mithral cuts it by 3. I believe thisldown padding (RoW) reduces it as well. The twighlight armor enhancement does, IIRC.

As to your spoiled complaint: who decided that being armored makes falling into the water a virtual death sentence? Reality. Swimming with normal clothing is noticeably more difficult than without. Adding metal plates and thick padding; restricting your movement and reducing your buoyancy, it would be nonsensical for the rules to say otherwise, especially in heavy armor. Though, at the same time, -12 isn't that big a deal to a high level character. A level 13 or 14 fighter could swim in full plate all day as long as the weather's good.

[ScrambledBrains]

There are a number of special materials and several enhancements that reduce ACP. Right off the top of my head; getting the armor made of mithral cuts it by 3. I believe thisldown padding (RoW) reduces it as well. The twighlight armor enhancement does, IIRC.

Hmm...in that case, I believe if I can get my armor of Mithral, combined with those two Heavy Armor Optimization feats, I can reduce a -6 to 0. Sweet! Thanks, Kelb! :smallsmile:


As to your spoiled complaint: who decided that being armored makes falling into the water a virtual death sentence? Reality. Swimming with normal clothing is noticeably more difficult than without. Adding metal plates and thick padding; restricting your movement and reducing your buoyancy, it would be nonsensical for the rules to say otherwise, especially in heavy armor. Though, at the same time, -12 isn't that big a deal to a high level character. A level 13 or 14 fighter could swim in full plate all day as long as the weather's good.

Ok, to be fair, my statement was probably an exaggeration. Still, even without being deadly, I don't think the ACP is fair. It makes sense in some ways, but I think the Max. Dexterity cap is enough punishment for heavy armor users.

[weckar]

Remember that the max Dex cap ONLY applies to the dex bonus to AC.

[ScrambledBrains]

Remember that the max Dex cap ONLY applies to the dex bonus to AC.

I am aware, but I think that single AC hit is enough. The ACP has always struck me as overkill.

[Yorrin]

The twighlight armor enhancement does, IIRC.

I believe you're thinking of Nimble, actually. Twilight reduces ASF, rather than ACP. An easy mistake to make.

[weckar]

As I understand it, ACP acts for two reasons: First to simulate what armor would actually do (jumping in armor? No.) and to make sure that characters don't live in their armor. That they have a reason to take it off every now and then. And, honestly, outside of balance checks.... I don't think ACP would affect you much if at all during combat.

[Red Fel]

There is an item, I think it's in MIC, called Ring of Arming. Basically, it's a convenient, easy way to store your weapons, armor - an entire gear loadout. Standard action swaps whatever you're wearing with what's in the ring.

The best way to negate the ACP of heavy armor is not to be wearing it, after all.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ok, to be fair, my statement was probably an exaggeration. Still, even without being deadly, I don't think the ACP is fair. It makes sense in some ways, but I think the Max. Dexterity cap is enough punishment for heavy armor users.

It doesn't strike me as particularly unfair.

balance, escape artist, sleight of hand, and tumble: if it's a class skill you're not proficient in heavy armor anyway for most, if not all of these.

hide, move silently: you're shiny and wearing gear that clanks and/or creaks

jump, climb, and swim: your range of movement is hindered and the weight on your individual limbs is increased.

It all makes perfect sense to me.

If you're really that worried about it you can either wear lighter armor or pay out the nose to negate the ACP. You'll also notice that the bonuses that are reached by mid level completely overwhelm the ACP to the point that it's negligible for any task with a static DC.

The whole point of heavy armor is to trade range of motion for protection. Wearing armor that actually does restrict your dex, rather than armor that would but for your dex being below the max for it, is a bad trade. It's simply a change in the type of protection you're getting rather than getting more for the range of motion you're giving up. The affect of ACP is secondary to the affect on AC.

If you're more concerned about skills than AC, don't wear heavy armor.

I can definitely understand not -liking- ACP but it's inaccurate to say that it's unfair.

[Seerow]

Hrm came to suggest Heavy Armor Optimization, but apparently he already found those.


Also, I don't consider ACP or even Max dex a big penalty for armor users. No, the one I absolutely cannot stand is the movement reduction. And the worst part is, there's no way to get rid of that without using shenanigans to turn your heavy armor into light armor! It makes the Heavy Armor proficiency entirely useless.


-Armor does not inherently reduce movement.
-Armor ACP values are generally lower across the board (capping out around -3 or so
-If your armor alone weighs more than 1/2 your light load, you take penalties to move speed and ACP as if you were encumbered at a medium load. If the armor alone weighs more than your your full light load, you take penalties as if encumbered at a heavy load.
-If your armor alone weighs more than your medium load, all encumbrance penalties (including the speed reduction) are doubled)
-Rather than ACP being doubled in water, armor's effective weight is doubled in water, meaning increased chance of reduced movement and additional penalties while swimming.


So for a Human in full plate (50lbs):
10 Strength (light load 33, medium 66):
Walking: Treated as though he has heavy encumbrance, restricted to 20ft movement and takes an additional -6 ACP. Added to full plate's base -3 ACP, for -9 ACP total.
Swimming: Full Plate now effectively weighs 100lbs, which is over the human's medium load. That -6 ACP penalty doubles to -12, added to the -3 base ACP for -15 ACP total.

18 strength (light load 100, medium 200)
Walking: 50lbs is exactly half his light load, can be worn without additional penalty. No penalties to move speed, only -3 ACP.
Swimming: 100lbs puts you at exactly your max light load, treating you as medium encumbrance. So while swimming you are restricted to 20ft move speed, and have a -6 total ACP.

23 strength (light load 200)
Walking and Swimming: Both come in under the 1/2 light load. At this point you can wear full plate without penalty.

[ScrambledBrains]

Also, I don't consider ACP or even Max dex a big penalty for armor users. No, the one I absolutely cannot stand is the movement reduction. And the worst part is, there's no way to get rid of that without using shenanigans to turn your heavy armor into light armor! It makes the Heavy Armor proficiency entirely useless.


[Self-Redacted: See Below]

[weckar]

You could compensate for the speed loss though. Gaining base movement speed is one of the easier things to do in 3.5 D&D.

[Seerow]

Eh...while I agree that is a really sucky penalty, there are plenty of ways to counter it. Anklets of Translocation come to mind. :smallwink:

This does not remove the penalty. It gives you an alternative mode of movement a couple of times a day.


You could compensate for the speed loss though. Gaining base movement speed is one of the easier things to do in 3.5 D&D.


And all boosts you get subsequently get cut. 60ft movement speed becomes 40 in heavy armor. It's crippling. Not to mention most of the easier to obtain bonuses (outside of Haste) don't get along well with heavy armor.

[ScrambledBrains]

This does not remove the penalty. It gives you an alternative mode of movement a couple of times a day.

Actually, having looked up the item, I retract my statement. I thought you could go up to 50 feet, not 10. Not a bad item, but it in no way makes up for the movement penalty. :smallannoyed:

My bad, Seerow. :smallsmile:

[Seerow]

Actually, having looked up the item, I retract my statement. I thought you could go up to 50 feet, not 10. Not a bad item, but it in no way makes up for the movement penalty. :smallannoyed:

My bad, Seerow. :smallsmile:

I think there is a different one that lets you teleport 50ft as a move action 3/day as a move action. But still, unless it's at will, I don't consider it an adequate solution. And making something like that at will is pretty much in the realm of homebrew, at which point you should fix the problem directly instead of making a mandatory item to patch up something as fundamental as armored character mobility.

[ScrambledBrains]

I think there is a different one that lets you teleport 50ft as a move action 3/day as a move action. But still, unless it's at will, I don't consider it an adequate solution. And making something like that at will is pretty much in the realm of homebrew, at which point you should fix the problem directly instead of making a mandatory item to patch up something as fundamental as armored character mobility.

Agreed. :smallsmile:

[Fenryr]

Prestige class Dread Commando (Heroes of Battle). Maybe not the best option but is possible in some builds.

Also, a nice homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10546567#post10546567).

[weckar]

Dimensional Jaunt gets close, but the actions.... well.... no, no it doesn't.

[Devils_Advocate]

Pro Tip: Assign skill points to skills to make your character better at those skills.

No, seriously. The Fighter can swim just fine in his armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0187.html) because the Fighter has an appreciable Strength bonus and ranks in Swim. A Fighter who drowns due to a negative Swim modifier was doomed by his player, not by WotC.

Your complaint reads much like a player opining that a Wizard should never be deprived of her spellbook, despite the existence of Spell Mastery and the rule for creating a backup spellbook at half cost. Of course not taking countermeasures is supposed to be able to bite you in the ass, otherwise there'd be no point to having them!

(Of course, some classes, e.g. Paladins, are kind of screwed by lacking Swim as a class skill, but c'est la vie.)


60ft movement speed becomes 40 in heavy armor. It's crippling.
How is a movement rate of 40 ft per round "crippled"?

Someone help me out here. What's the deal with this apparent attitude that needing to balance out a penalty with a bonus is terrible, but having to reduce the penalty directly is just fine? The end result is the same either way, so seriously, what gives?

[Seerow]

How is a movement rate of 40 ft per round "crippled"?

Someone help me out here. What's the deal with this apparent attitude that needing to balance out a penalty with a bonus is terrible, but having to reduce the penalty directly is just fine? The end result is the same either way, so seriously, what gives?

It's crippled when you've gone out of your way to get boosts to bring you up +30ft movement speed, and only get to benefit from +20ft of it.

Being permanently at 66% of where you should be is crippling. Especially since most heavy armor characters tend to be melee. You know, the guys who rely on having better mobility than their enemy to do anything at all

[Devils_Advocate]

I guess I'm not sure whether you're saying "Heavy armor prevents melee characters from achieving adequate mobility", "A net increase is terrible if there was a penalty involved somewhere", or both.

The former is perfectly reasonable. My point was that the latter seems kinda crazy. So if that's not what you meant, then obviously my criticism does not apply.

[Andezzar]

You could compensate for the speed loss though. Gaining base movement speed is one of the easier things to do in 3.5 D&D.The problem is not whether the speed loss can be compensated, but that some skills are arbitrarily made impossible to use.
Normally you cannot tumble in a breastplate regardless of speed enhancing items, but a dwarf (and Knight 9 and maybe others) can tumble wearing a mountain plate and a tower shield. The dwarf won't be good at it, but at least he can try.

Swimming on the other hand is not made impossible

[weckar]

No. Speed loss was actually the exact complaint I was responding to.

[Thurbane]

Some ideas in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16943811):

Nimbleness enchantment reduces ACP by 2. (MIC)
Hellforged reduces ACP by 1. (DMG2) or possibly increases it by 1 - bad wording
Leafweave reduces ACP by 2. (RotW)
Wildwood Reduces ACP by 1. (RotW)
Guerilla Warrior feat redcues ACP by 1. (HoB)
Dread Command PrC reduces ACP by up to 4. (HoB)

[nedz]

Wear Light Armour and Pump/Buff your Dex.
Your AC will likely be as high and you won't have any ACP

[Devils_Advocate]

That's actually a good point. Being proficient with heavy armor doesn't mean you HAVE to wear it. There are, as you've noticed, trade-offs involved that make heavy armor less than strictly beneficial. The reduced movement rate as well as the Armor Check Penalty. And Dexterity is a generally useful stat anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318432). Heck, most of the stuff that ACP applies to is hurt by low Dex as well!

So in the event that you're gritting your teeth about "having" to use heavy armor because your character's class grants proficiency in it and you don't want that armor proficiency to "go to waste", to the point that you'd be happier if that armor proficiency didn't exist...

Well. You could always just sorta... pretend that it doesn't exist.

There are other means of boosting AC, some even incompatible with heavy armor. Many high-Wisdom characters would prefer a Monk's Belt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltMonks) to armor, for example.

[HammeredWharf]

Your base question has already been answered, but I'd also recommend being a dwarf. They're a decent race for melee characters overall, but get especially good when you're not wearing a mithral breastplate for some reason. Their movement speed isn't hampered by armor, so you'll get to move faster when hasted and can still tumble in heavy armor.

[Kioras]

If you want to wear heavy armor and keep normal movement, you need to get a custom magic item of 'Knight Unburdened'

Level 1 artificer spell, 1 hr/level duration. 2000 gp custom item, to move full speed in heavy armor. Can probably get away of throwing it as an enchant to the armor itself for 3000gp.

[Firechanter]

Hey great tip, didn't know Knight Unburdened before.

What other ways are there to move full speed in full plate?
I believe there is a "halfweight" template somewhere but I don't know which book, or if it comes with any strings attached.

[Osiris]

No, seriously. The Fighter can swim just fine in his armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0187.html)

No, the cave is so narrow he can pull himself out with his strength 22+

[Thurbane]

If you want to wear heavy armor and keep normal movement, you need to get a custom magic item of 'Knight Unburdened'

Level 1 artificer spell, 1 hr/level duration. 2000 gp custom item, to move full speed in heavy armor. Can probably get away of throwing it as an enchant to the armor itself for 3000gp.
Well, if you're willing to be under the influence of a vestige, the Tooth Of Savnok (ToM p.79) does this as a slotless item in case the DM won't approve custom items.

[SinsI]

The problem with Heavy Armor being next to useless is due to it giving a bonus to AC, just as Dexterity does.
Try switching to Unearthed Arcana's "Armor as Damage Reduction" rule.

[Firechanter]

Using DR swings the scales all the way in the other direction. Using anything less than the absolute heaviest armour becomes unviable.
Dex builds got it tough enough as it is.

[kpumphre]

I don't have my books right now. But their is another one called light weight or something that ups the dex range and gets rid of Acp by a few points that can work with Mithril. Also storm wrack has some that affect just swimming.

[Seerow]

Using DR swings the scales all the way in the other direction. Using anything less than the absolute heaviest armour becomes unviable.
Dex builds got it tough enough as it is.


Actually the armor as DR variant has some awful scaling issues. Weaing heavy armor is all important at low level, but makes you completely unviable at high level. It's a pretty broken and poorly thought out rule all around.

[Firechanter]

Ah I got it now, "Halfweight" is not a template, but a magical property from Underdark, worth a +3 bonus. Any armour so enchanted counts as Light.

The drawback with Knight Unburdened is that it's from a rather obscure sourcebook (Forge of War). I for one don't have it.

Still let's compare a few options, assuming a Str-based character with 14 Dex, with the goal of maximum AC at full speed:

Standard: Mithral Breastplate
Cost just +4000GP, but demands a +6 Dex item to max out AC. A whopping 36.000GP for a secondary stat - ouch. 40K total price tag.

Alternative: Mithral Fullplate + Knight Unburdened
The armour costs 10.500GP, the permanent spell effect around 3000GP. Add a +2 Dex item for 4000GP to max it out. Total bill: 17500GP.

Alternative: Halfweight Mithral Fullplate
10500GP +1 enhancement +3 Halfweight property + 4000 for Dex item = 30.500GP

So the Mithral Breastplate is actually the most expensive option _and_, as insult comes to injury, affords the least protection. (Just 1 point difference but still!) The Knight-Unburdened armour looks like the best deal.

[Andezzar]

Using DR swings the scales all the way in the other direction. Using anything less than the absolute heaviest armour becomes unviable.
Dex builds got it tough enough as it is.Are you talking about this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm). The DR one gets from heavy armor seems pretty insignificant to the AC reduction. I'd much rather have a higher probability to avoid all damage than reduce a mere 4 points of a hit.

[Firechanter]

Oh, actually I was thinking of a different one, sorry. In Conan D20 any armour basically gives the DR of the regular Armor bonus, so Chain Shirt = DR 4/-, Full Plate = DR 8/-, sort of. Helmets further increase this by 1 or 2.

So yeah I was thinking in terms of the Conan ruleset... which also had a special rule for Armour Piercing attacks which reduced DR by half, which btw was a nightmare to calculate, but the logical consequence was that a Full Plate + Great Helm is almost impossible to pierce, while any Light Armour is pierced so easily that you might as well just write up half its DR and be done with it.

Moreover, it also doubly shafted anyone not pursuing the Two-Handed fighting style. Same as with TWF and Archery in 3.5 -- twice the number of attacks, twice the amount of DR applies.

[SinsI]

Actually the armor as DR variant has some awful scaling issues. Weaing heavy armor is all important at low level, but makes you completely unviable at high level. It's a pretty broken and poorly thought out rule all around.

That's why it is good for E6

[ScrambledBrains]

Firstly: Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions. I will take them into consideration for my character. :smallsmile:

Secondly:


Pro Tip: Assign skill points to skills to make your character better at those skills.

No, seriously. The Fighter can swim just fine in his armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0187.html) because the Fighter has an appreciable Strength bonus and ranks in Swim. A Fighter who drowns due to a negative Swim modifier was doomed by his player, not by WotC.

Your complaint reads much like a player opining that a Wizard should never be deprived of her spellbook, despite the existence of Spell Mastery and the rule for creating a backup spellbook at half cost. Of course not taking countermeasures is supposed to be able to bite you in the ass, otherwise there'd be no point to having them!

Ok, perhaps my complaint was poorly worded. In my own defense, my character concept uses heavy armor, which is why I'm so intent on reducing the ACP. Nevertheless, let me offer you three hypothetical scenarios to explain my disdain for the ACP:

Scenario 1: Two 1st level human fighters, one with light armor(With no ACP) and one with heavy(With a -6 ACP), with the same strength score(Let's say 18, so +4 modifier) are trying to climb a mountain of some kind(DC not being relevant). Their natural ability, as evidenced by their strength scores, is equal, and neither has any ranks in climb(Just for this scenario). So the light armor one rolls, and his roll will be 1d20+4. The heavy armor one rolls...and his roll will be 1d20-2.

Right there? That's a problem. With equal training(I.E. None) and equal natural ability(I.E. Their strength scores), one factor-the difference in armor size, which I will also remind you the heavy armor wearer paid more for, made him less likely to succeed on his check.

Scenario 2: Ok, so let's take your suggestion into account. The heavy armor guy took a few classes on mountaineering while training in the army, and has max ranks in Climb. So the same two gentlemen-the light armor one with +4 modifier and no training, and the heavy armor one with +4 modifier and full training, try to climb the same mountain. The light armor guy will roll 1d20+4...and the heavy armor one rolls 1d20+2.

Another problem right there: He put a limited resource(OOC skill points, IC time and effort) into training to climb well. And yet, just by virtue of his armor, he STILL has less chance of doing well than the guy with no training whatsoever.

(Aside: Yes, I know that ultimately, two points is unlikely to make a difference.)

Scenario Three: Ok, let's take Scenario 2 again, but this time the heavy armor guy also brought his Climber's Kit. So, they roll again, and this time, each one has the same roll, 1d20+4.

However, what cost the light armor character a pittance(just what he paid for the armor, so either 5 or 10 gold pieces) cost the heavy armor character a minimum of 250 gp, plus the 80 gp Climber's Kit, in addition to the skill points spent.

That? Is a massive problem as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and to anyone who says, 'You don't take heavy armor for mobility, you take it for protection.', I will just point out that a character with a high enough dexterity can equal or surpass even Full Plate when it comes to protection, and he would have spent much less money too, without gimping some of his skills.

[Andezzar]

I really don't see your problem. If your equipment hinders you at performing a task you should be less likely to succeed at it. Don't tell me that climbing a mountain with 50 lbs of metal on you is not more difficult than without (or with only light armor).
Just ask yourself why (besides a helmet) rock climbers don't wear protective gear. It may have something to do with being less agile wearing it.

You forgot one advantage of having an armor bonus instead of an bonus to armor class due to your DEX. The sheet of metal also works when you are flat-footed. Unless you invest in training you lose your DEX bonus then.

[ScrambledBrains]

I really don't see your problem. If your equipment hinders you at performing a task you should be less likely to succeed at it. Don't tell me that climbing a mountain with 50 lbs of metal on you is not more difficult than without (or with only light armor).
Just ask yourself why (besides a helmet) rock climbers don't wear protective gear. It may have something to do with being less agile wearing it.

You forgot one advantage of having an armor bonus instead of an bonus to armor class due to your DEX. The sheet of metal also works when you are flat-footed. Unless you invest in training you lose your DEX bonus then.

The problem is that, with a considerable expenditure of resources, the one guy can only tie the guy who expends almost nothing. And I am well-aware that in real life, rock climbers wear light gear. However, rock climbers in the real world also don't have to be ready to fight at a moment's notice.

I will concede this point, however. Having the heavy armor is good for when you're flat-footed, which can occur with some regularity, depending on the campaign in question.

[Seerow]

I will concede this point, however. Having the heavy armor is good for when you're flat-footed, which can occur with some regularity, depending on the campaign in question.


Of course, dexterity is more effective against the far more common (and harder to protect against) touch attacks.

So citing "Heavy armor applies in some situations that dex doesn't!" doesn't really help much. At best it's a moot point.

[ScrambledBrains]

Of course, dexterity is more effective against the far more common (and harder to protect against) touch attacks.

So citing "Heavy armor applies in some situations that dex doesn't!" doesn't really help much. At best it's a moot point.

True as well.

[killem2]

There are a number of special materials and several enhancements that reduce ACP. Right off the top of my head; getting the armor made of mithral cuts it by 3. I believe thisldown padding (RoW) reduces it as well. The twighlight armor enhancement does, IIRC.

As to your spoiled complaint: who decided that being armored makes falling into the water a virtual death sentence? Reality. Swimming with normal clothing is noticeably more difficult than without. Adding metal plates and thick padding; restricting your movement and reducing your buoyancy, it would be nonsensical for the rules to say otherwise, especially in heavy armor. Though, at the same time, -12 isn't that big a deal to a high level character. A level 13 or 14 fighter could swim in full plate all day as long as the weather's good.

Also, in my session we have a dwarf cleric that has a constitution now of 22, needless to say he was able to walk on the floor of the underground pool, until he walked up the gradual incline to the safe shore.

:D


(we have a sea adventure coming up though, lets home he doesn't fall in the ocean)

[nedz]

Well there's the Iron Silence spell [SpC:Assassin 2, Bard 2, Cleric 2, Vigilante 2] which Irons your armour or something; anyway you get to ignore ACP for Move Silently and Hide.

[Magesmiley]

Honestly? Boots of Levitiation help with a lot of of the problems from wearing heavy armor. Notably, climbing, jumping, and swimming sinking. I always try to get a pair when I make a heavily armored character.

[Andezzar]

Also, in my session we have a dwarf cleric that has a constitution now of 22, needless to say he was able to walk on the floor of the underground pool, until he walked up the gradual incline to the safe shore.

:D


(we have a sea adventure coming up though, lets home he doesn't fall in the ocean)250 gp gets rid of that problem - Least Crystal of Aquatic Action (MIC p. 25. The better crystals even grant a swim speed.

[killem2]

250 gp gets rid of that problem - Least Crystal of Aquatic Action (MIC p. 25. The better crystals even grant a swim speed.

I'll bring that up with him then.

(part of me thinks he likes being in those situation though haha)

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ok, perhaps my complaint was poorly worded. In my own defense, my character concept uses heavy armor, which is why I'm so intent on reducing the ACP. Nevertheless, let me offer you three hypothetical scenarios to explain my disdain for the ACP:

Scenario 1: Two 1st level human fighters, one with light armor(With no ACP) and one with heavy(With a -6 ACP), with the same strength score(Let's say 18, so +4 modifier) are trying to climb a mountain of some kind(DC not being relevant). Their natural ability, as evidenced by their strength scores, is equal, and neither has any ranks in climb(Just for this scenario). So the light armor one rolls, and his roll will be 1d20+4. The heavy armor one rolls...and his roll will be 1d20-2.

Right there? That's a problem. With equal training(I.E. None) and equal natural ability(I.E. Their strength scores), one factor-the difference in armor size, which I will also remind you the heavy armor wearer paid more for, made him less likely to succeed on his check.

Scenario 2: Ok, so let's take your suggestion into account. The heavy armor guy took a few classes on mountaineering while training in the army, and has max ranks in Climb. So the same two gentlemen-the light armor one with +4 modifier and no training, and the heavy armor one with +4 modifier and full training, try to climb the same mountain. The light armor guy will roll 1d20+4...and the heavy armor one rolls 1d20+2.

Another problem right there: He put a limited resource(OOC skill points, IC time and effort) into training to climb well. And yet, just by virtue of his armor, he STILL has less chance of doing well than the guy with no training whatsoever.

(Aside: Yes, I know that ultimately, two points is unlikely to make a difference.)

Scenario Three: Ok, let's take Scenario 2 again, but this time the heavy armor guy also brought his Climber's Kit. So, they roll again, and this time, each one has the same roll, 1d20+4.

However, what cost the light armor character a pittance(just what he paid for the armor, so either 5 or 10 gold pieces) cost the heavy armor character a minimum of 250 gp, plus the 80 gp Climber's Kit, in addition to the skill points spent.

That? Is a massive problem as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, and to anyone who says, 'You don't take heavy armor for mobility, you take it for protection.', I will just point out that a character with a high enough dexterity can equal or surpass even Full Plate when it comes to protection, and he would have spent much less money too, without gimping some of his skills.

Your logic is incomplete.

Let's take your initial example of two otherwise identical fighters; one in leather and one in plate. As you noted, there's a 30% difference in their ability. Unless the surface they're climbing is above DC 8, the difference is entirely irrelevant outside of combat. Both will take 10 and that's it.

However, the fighter in plate will be, undeniably, better protected since his AC both flat-footed and overall will be higher, their dex bonus certainly being no higher than +2 at first level under a normal point-buy.

Now lets look at the climbing trained fighters. Again, there's a six point difference in their ability to climb but, unless the DC is over 12, that's still irrelevant outside of combat.

In combat, however, the plate wearing fighter, while a bit more likely to fall, is much better protected since both fighters are denied their dex bonus while climbing.

Let's take it a step further. An overhang is DC 25. That's roughly appropriate to a level 10 character so let's see.

Both fighters have 13 ranks, by level 10 they should easily have a +6 strength mod, and of course they'll have climbing gear for a +2. That's a +21 modifier without even trying. The leather clad fighter will be able to take 10 and trivially make that. The plate wearer, who will certainly have a masterwork plate, is sporting a +16, he can take 10 as well. As long as the weather's good and they're not on a glacier, the armor is irrelevant. However, the plate wearer will be sporting an AC at least 7 points higher if a fight breaks out. This is -greater- than the 5 point difference in their chance to fall if they're struck.

Ultimately it's a tradeoff. You wear the heavier armor because you want the protection it offers even if it means limiting your ability to move. It's a reasonable and realistic trade to make unless you just can't stomach a loss of mobility. If you want greater protection without trading anything away, you pay more. Simple as that.

It isn't unfair. You just don't like it. I'm not saying you -should- like it, you're free to feel however you feel, but calling it unfair is just false.

[ScrambledBrains]

Your logic is incomplete.

Let's take your initial example of two otherwise identical fighters; one in leather and one in plate. As you noted, there's a 30% difference in their ability. Unless the surface they're climbing is above DC 8, the difference is entirely irrelevant outside of combat. Both will take 10 and that's it.

However, the fighter in plate will be, undeniably, better protected since his AC both flat-footed and overall will be higher, their dex bonus certainly being no higher than +2 at first level under a normal point-buy.

Now lets look at the climbing trained fighters. Again, there's a six point difference in their ability to climb but, unless the DC is over 12, that's still irrelevant outside of combat.

In combat, however, the plate wearing fighter, while a bit more likely to fall, is much better protected since both fighters are denied their dex bonus while climbing.

Let's take it a step further. An overhang is DC 25. That's roughly appropriate to a level 10 character so let's see.

Both fighters have 13 ranks, by level 10 they should easily have a +6 strength mod, and of course they'll have climbing gear for a +2. That's a +21 modifier without even trying. The leather clad fighter will be able to take 10 and trivially make that. The plate wearer, who will certainly have a masterwork plate, is sporting a +16, he can take 10 as well. As long as the weather's good and they're not on a glacier, the armor is irrelevant. However, the plate wearer will be sporting an AC at least 7 points higher if a fight breaks out. This is -greater- than the 5 point difference in their chance to fall if they're struck.

Ultimately it's a tradeoff. You wear the heavier armor because you want the protection it offers even if it means limiting your ability to move. It's a reasonable and realistic trade to make unless you just can't stomach a loss of mobility. If you want greater protection without trading anything away, you pay more. Simple as that.

It isn't unfair. You just don't like it. I'm not saying you -should- like it, you're free to feel however you feel, but calling it unfair is just false.

...Why do I always forget about the take 10 rule? :smallsigh:

Ok, this has convinced me that heavy armor isn't that bad. I still don't like the ACP(although I stopped calling it unfair a few posts back, I think.) or the reduced mobility, but I can now see that there are indeed, good things about the extra protection too, and that works for me.

Many thanks for your help, Kelb. :smallsmile:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Always glad to help. :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

...Why do I always forget about the take 10 rule? :smallsigh:

Proper use of taking 10 and taking 20 covers a multitude of sins.

Fact. :smallwink:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Proper use of taking 10 and taking 20 covers a multitude of sins.

Fact. :smallwink:

It's still kinda funny to watch somebody with a +5 mod fall off of a DC 15 wall several times before giving a retcon and reminder of the take 10 rule.

[Mithril Leaf]

Remember a Mithril Dastana, Chahar-Aina, and Chain Shirt gives you a +6 AC with no ACP and +6 Max Dex for 6 grand. If you really don't want to deal ACP while having decent Armor, that's an option.

Toss on Thistledown and Fey Craft for no ASF as well.

[Firechanter]

Oriental stuff isn't everybody's thing. Apart from setting flair questions, I for one wonder how wearing a big loose box around your chest is supposed to not encumber you.

For a Str build, I'm gonna go for a Mithral Fullplate of Unburdened Nimbleness, for +4 max Dex and a harmless -1 ACP, and no speed penalty.
Spiked, of course. Then make the spikes +1 Defending for 8k. Have your party caster put one of his Chained GMWs on your spikes. Presto, up to +4 extra AC for free.

Ofc this will only come online mid-game, so for the early levels you need to put up with something cheaper.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Oriental stuff isn't everybody's thing. Apart from setting flair questions, I for one wonder how wearing a big loose box around your chest is supposed to not encumber you.

Just because it comes from the orient doesn't mean it has to remain oriental in flavor. In the end, it's strapping plates that partially cover the chest, flanks, and back (thus four mirrors) on over the less solid base armor. They're not particularly cumbersome, at least in part, because they're -not- loose. They're strapped to their places on the body, over the base armor, quite snugly.

[Firechanter]

I still don't see how it should be less encumbering than a custom-fit Breastplate.

[Andezzar]

The problem might be that there is no mechanical benefit for having your armor custom fit.

[Firechanter]

I'm not thinking about game mechanics here, I am trying a reality check. If a chain shirt plus some extra parts strapped on were as effective as a breastplate and at the same time less encumbering, nobody would ever use a breastplate.

[Andezzar]

Newsflash: The designers of D&D do not have much knowledge of weapons or armor or deliberately do not use that knowledge to accurately simulate real life warfare.

In other news: There are many different writers and they do not cross check eveything with all the other existing rules.

If you don't like those items do not use them in your game.

Another interesting thing has not been published in the SRD:
A breastplate covers your front and your back. It comes with a helmet and greaves (plates to cover your lower legs). A light suit or skirt of studded leather beneath the breastplate protects your limbs without restricting movement much.So it is more than just a breastplate plus padding. Contrary to the chain shirt and special bracers this could restrict the movement of the knee and elbow joints.

So it could indeed be more restricting. Whether the -4 vs -1 is justified is a different question.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I still don't see how it should be less encumbering than a custom-fit Breastplate.

It neither covers the shoulders nor the torso at or below the waist line and is comprised of four plates with lengths of strapping between them instead of two overlapping plates making a solid shell. It moves with your body a bit better and doesn't get in the way as much. It's also lighter.

When you then consider that the full set of armor described for the "breastplate" isn't just the breastplate itself, it's really not that difficult to fathom.

[Firechanter]

Then it shouldnt have the same AC as a Breastplate. :p We're moving in circles.

[SinsI]

Just don't stack the AC bonuses from two armors occupying the same slot.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Then it shouldnt have the same AC as a Breastplate. :p We're moving in circles.

It doesn't. It's only a +1.

Now the combination of that and a chain-shirt makes it to equivalent to a breastplate but a chain-shirt is -much- more flexible than any armor made of solid plates. Its encumbrance is -entirely- a function of its weight.

[Devils_Advocate]

I'm still curious as to some of your reasoning, ScrambledBrains. You've pointed out the following:

When all other relevant factors are equal, a character subject to a penalty has a worse modifier to his roll than one not subject to that penalty. You can't counter this penalty for free. It's possible to counter the penalty only partially. It takes more to completely cancel the penalty than to only counter it partially. Having a high Dexterity is better than having a low Dexterity.

So, uh... Why do you see any of those things as even constituting a complaint? "Worse numbers make a character worse at doing stuff" is an essential part of how roleplaying games in general function, so treating it as a malfunction in this particular case seems really odd. Do you see what I mean?

In particular, what do you mean when you call something "a problem" in this context?

Is it "a problem" in that it's bad for the character? Because that's kind of the definition of "penalty". Pointing that out is like pointing out that people die when they are killed. And complaining about that is kind of like complaining that your character is no longer allowed to take actions when subjected to the Dead condition. I can't help but suspect that there just might be a certain amount of missing the point involved.

When you say that something is "a problem", do you just mean that you dislike it? Because telling us that doesn't really let us know why you dislike it, or cause us to dislike it. One could come up with lots of scenarios in which one character is better off in some way than another character. In fact, characters are supposed to have different pros and cons, instead of being precisely equal in all possible regards.


my character concept uses heavy armor, which is why I'm so intent on reducing the ACP.
... Do you mean "heavy" just in the literal sense of "weighs a lot"? Because otherwise you seem to be claiming that you want to avoid armor restricting your character's movement because you want your character to use the sort of armor that restricts one's movement.

Do I need to explain the contradiction there?

Look, even without Armor Check Penalties, lower Dex would still means lower skill modifiers, because a bunch of skills are Dex-based! The three Str-based skills aren't remotely the main factor there.


However, what cost the light armor character a pittance(just what he paid for the armor, so either 5 or 10 gold pieces) cost the heavy armor character a minimum of 250 gp, plus the 80 gp Climber's Kit, in addition to the skill points spent.
Dude, WHAT?! The heavy armor character didn't pay more for the same thing, he paid more to get thrice the increase to Armor Class he'd get from leather armor as well as the same Climb modifier! You're comparing apples to watermelons.


Oh, and to anyone who says, 'You don't take heavy armor for mobility, you take it for protection.', I will just point out that a character with a high enough dexterity can equal or surpass even Full Plate when it comes to protection, and he would have spent much less money too, without gimping some of his skills.
Raising a Dexterity of 13 to 26 requires a Manual of Quickness of Action +5 and Gloves of Epic Dexterity +8, which'll run ya 777,500 gp if I've done my math right. Full plate, on the other hand, is 1500 gp. That is less than one five hundreth the price. It is a ludicrously cheap substitute for Dex. In fact, armors and shields are the cheapest AC-boosting items there are, point for point.

But I could just assign a high score to Dexterity!

But then you can't assign that score to an even more important stat. Assigning a higher score to a stat less important to your build and a lower score to a stat more important to your build weakens your character pretty much by definition.

Well, what if Dexterity is the more important stat?

... Then put the higher score in it? Obviously? Of course you're gimping your character if you don't do that! You already know this. C'mon now.

[Seerow]

I'm still curious as to some of your reasoning, ScrambledBrains. You've pointed out the following:

When all other relevant factors are equal, a character subject to a penalty has a worse modifier to his roll than one not subject to that penalty. You can't counter this penalty for free. It's possible to counter the penalty only partially. It takes more to completely cancel the penalty than to only counter it partially. Having a high Dexterity is better than having a low Dexterity.

So, uh... Why do you see any of those things as even constituting a complaint? "Worse numbers make a character worse at doing stuff" is an essential part of how roleplaying games in general function, so treating it as a malfunction in this particular case seems really odd. Do you see what I mean?

In particular, what do you mean when you call something "a problem" in this context?

Is it "a problem" in that it's bad for the character? Because that's kind of the definition of "penalty". Pointing that out is like pointing out that people die when they are killed. And complaining about that is kind of like complaining that your character is no longer allowed to take actions when subjected to the Dead condition. I can't help but suspect that there just might be a certain amount of missing the point involved.

When you say that something is "a problem", do you just mean that you dislike it? Because telling us that doesn't really let us know why you dislike it, or cause us to dislike it. One could come up with lots of scenarios in which one character is better off in some way than another character. In fact, characters are supposed to have different pros and cons, instead of being precisely equal in all possible regards.


... Do you mean "heavy" just in the literal sense of "weighs a lot"? Because otherwise you seem to be claiming that you want to avoid armor restricting your character's movement because you want your character to use the sort of armor that restricts one's movement.

Do I need to explain the contradiction there?

Look, even without Armor Check Penalties, lower Dex would still means lower skill modifiers, because a bunch of skills are Dex-based! The three Str-based skills aren't remotely the main factor there.


Dude, WHAT?! The heavy armor character didn't pay more for the same thing, he paid more to get thrice the increase to Armor Class he'd get from leather armor as well as the same Climb modifier! You're comparing apples to watermelons.


Raising a Dexterity of 13 to 26 requires a Manual of Quickness of Action +5 and Gloves of Epic Dexterity +8, which'll run ya 777,500 gp if I've done my math right. Full plate, on the other hand, is 1500 gp. That is less than one five hundreth the price. It is a ludicrously cheap substitute for Dex. In fact, armors and shields are the cheapest AC-boosting items there are, point for point.

But I could just assign a high score to Dexterity!

But then you can't assign that score to an even more important stat. Assigning a higher score to a stat less important to your build and a lower score to a stat more important to your build weakens your character pretty much by definition.

Well, what if Dexterity is the more important stat?

... Then put the higher score in it? Obviously? Of course you're gimping your character if you don't do that! You already know this. C'mon now.


1) Fact is, Dexterity is a more important attribute. Dex applies to initiative, AC, way more skills (and more important ones), and can relatively easily be added on to hit and damage. Oh and if you're doing a lockdown/control build (read: 1 of 2 viable fighter builds), Dex is important for determining how many AoOs you make in a round. Strength is marginally better in damage because it's easier to use for that purpose and gets times and a half on two-handed attacks. But objectively, you are better off with a high dex than high strength in most builds.

2) Given the above, a heavy armor user is actually getting double penalized. Not only is he taking the stat that has almost no out of combat benefit at all, but all of his other skills which are already lower get penalized further. So you end up in a position where even if you invest in the skill heavily, you end up behind where you'd be if you just boosted dex.

3) Given that information, you'd expect that heavy armor actually provides some great defensive benefit, right? Well, you'd be wrong. A high dex character with light armor will be within 1 AC of the heavy armor character at all times. Your big defensive benefit is merely keeping up with the guy who has the better stat and no penalties. Meanwhile you've sacrificed all noncombat utility and mobility to gain a couple extra points of damage and save a couple feats.

4) Which leads us to, if those same feats you save on getting dex to damage could be used to mitigate the penalties on heavy armor, it'd be balanced. Something as simple as a two-feat chain that eliminates movement penalties and ACP would put the heavy armor user on par with the light armor user. It still doesn't change that Strength has literally no utility and dex is the objectively better attribute, but now where the light armor user spends two feats to gain his dex to hit and damage, the heavy armor user spends two feats to not suck while wearing his armor.

5) Your pricing schema is ridiculously biased. You don't need to get a 26 dex to max out light armor, and if you did you wouldn't be trying to do it from a 13 starting attribute. Starting with a 14 Dex instead of 13 (because who starts on an odd number? And dex is good), you can max out a Mithral Breastplate with a +6 Dex item for 40,200gp. Starting at the same 14 dex lets you get a Mithral Breastplate for 10,500gp, and max it out with a +2 dex item for a total of 14,500.

So the Heavy Armor costs 1/3rd as much for two characters who are both trying to not focus on dex as a primary stat. That's good right?

Well, not really. That's pretty much the best case scenario for the Heavy Armor guy. Make it instead someone focusing on dex as a primary vs someone focusing on Strength as a primary, and suddenly they've both invested the same amount of gold into their primary attribute, but now the Strength guy has to invest extra gold into dex to max out his armor, AND his armor costs more.

Example: Both start with a 16 in their primary, and 12 in the off stat. By level 20 they'll both have a 32 in the primary (+5 level, +6 enhancement, +5 tome), which they were going to buy either way regardless of armor. Strength character now buys some Mithral Full Plate (10,500gp), and a +4 dex item to get his dex up to 16 (16,000), and spends a total of 26,500gp on his armor, ending up with a +11 AC from armor+dex.

The dex focused character quickly realizes every armor in core actually lowers his AC for wearing it, so proceeds to ignore it. Spends 0 gold, and has the same +11 AC that the guy in full plate gets. Or if you really want, the Gnome Twistcloth is a light armor with +1 AC and no max dex. It's an exotic armor, but the penalty for non-proficient armor use is taking the ACP as a penalty to various things, and the twistcloth has no ACP, so have fun wearing it without wasting a feat. It costs 150gp, giving you 1 higher AC than the strength dude in full plate, for 1/177th of the cost

[Darrin]

Hmm...in that case, I believe if I can get my armor of Mithral, combined with those two Heavy Armor Optimization feats, I can reduce a -6 to 0. Sweet! Thanks, Kelb! :smallsmile:


Not quite. Making heavy armor out of mithral causes it to be treated as medium armor, at which point Heavy Armor Optimization no longer works.

I think the most ACP you can reduce with just GP is 6:

Mithral / MW Darkleaf / MW Blue Ice: -3
Hellforged: -1
Nimbleness: -2

If we add Heroes of Battle:
Guerilla Warrior feat: -1
Dread Commando: -2/-4

Another tip: Start with Sectioned Full Plate (Planar Handbook), which has an ACP of -5 instead of -6.

There are also several materials that have the same properties as mithral, but look different:

Glassteel (Champions of Valor)
Firebrass (Secrets of Xen'drik)
Sentira (Secrets of Sarlona)

If you need to sleep in it, add the Restful property (500 GP, Dungeonscape). While you're there, grap Durable too (500 GP, same book). This leaves your armor slot open for something like a Crystal of Alacrity, Iron Ward Diamond, or Rubicund Frenzy (MIC).

[squiggit]

Well. You could always just sorta... pretend that it doesn't exist.
Shouldn't it be a big red flag of some kind that the best way to deal with a feature is to ignore it altogether?


The designers of D&D do not have much knowledge of weapons or armor or deliberately do not use that knowledge to accurately simulate real life warfare
So when we talk about pointless penalties and restrictions fighters have to deal with we're told it's for the sake of "realism", but when it turns out those penalties are overstated or certain benefits that should be modeled aren't it's because DnD isn't realistic? Which is it?


So, uh... Why do you see any of those things as even constituting a complaint?
It's a problem because it makes a character concept and item selection needlessly weak for absolutely no appreciable reason? This seems straightforward.

[ScrambledBrains]

@Devils_Advocate: I was going to make a counter point, but Seerow beat me to it, so see his reply to you. :smallsmile:

@Darrin: Thank you for the correction. Once I get into a campaign for this character, I'll remember that. :smallsmile:

Also, I am very surprised to see this on the front-page again. :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

If you're playing something in heavy armor then you probably aren't using skills anyway. Then your main concern is swim, so the solution is to optimize swim. You can get a +5 item for 2500 gp. Swim is one of the few skills you get as a class skill, so max it out. And hey, look, since you aren't a skill-monkey anymore your main stat is strength too. +5 or more strength, +5 magic item, armor check penalty negated for only 2500 gp. No need to blow your life savings on mithral full plate.

Balance, climb and jump are all easy to bypass via mundane and magical means. Knotted rope, pitons, crawling, movement magic items (later) and potions (early on for emergencies). Spider climb is one magical example. Once you can fly later on they become totally useless skills.

For emergencies there are skill elixirs to give a +10 for an hour in case you want to be even better than the best. They're only 250 gp a pop. Hiding, sneaking, swimming and vision. Also potion of jump +10 for 50 gp in case it's too early for spider climb.

I think MiC also has some limited use per day swim items for less than 2,500 gp.

[Andezzar]

I think MiC also has some limited use per day swim items for less than 2,500 gp.Least Crystal of Aquatic Action negates the ACP for swimming for 250 gp. The lesser version gives you an actual swim speed i.e. negates the need to roll swim at all for 1000 gp and for 3000 gp (greater crystal of aquatic action) you can also breathe underwater and attack as if under a Freedom of Movement spell.

[Grayson01]

There is an item, I think it's in MIC, called Ring of Arming. Basically, it's a convenient, easy way to store your weapons, armor - an entire gear loadout. Standard action swaps whatever you're wearing with what's in the ring.

The best way to negate the ACP of heavy armor is not to be wearing it, after all.

It's THE FLASH"S UNIFORM RING!!!