Loki Beguiler Gish Build

[Zetapup]

I recently watched Thor 2 and decided to attempt a Loki-esque build. Beguiler seemed like the obvious choice for class, given how illusion themed Loki is, but he's also fairly skilled in combat so a single classed Beguiler wouldn't be terribly accurate. As follows is an attempt at a beguiler gish Loki.

Human Fighter 1/Beguiler 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 7
1.Sneak Attack Fighter 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Two Weapon Fighting, Craven (2 flaws, human bonus feat)
2.Beguiler 1
3.Beguiler 2: Trickery Devotion
4.Beguiler 3
5.Beguiler 4
6.Beguiler 5: Combat Casting, Still Spell (bonus feat from Beguiler)
7.Beguiler 6
8.Spellsword 1
9.Abjurant Champion 1: Martial Study (insert shadow hand manuever here)
10.Abjurant Champion 2
11.Abjurant Champion 3
12.Abjurant Champion 4: Martial Stance Assassin's Stance
13.Abjurant Champion 5:
14.Eldritch Knight 1 Undecided Fighter Bonus Feat
15.Eldritch Knight 2: Knowledge Devotion
16.Eldritch Knight 3
17.Eldritch Knight 4
18.Eldritch Knight 5: Undecided Feat (maybe Surprising Riposte?)
19.Eldritch Knight 6
20.Eldritch Knight 7

Intelligence needs to be at least 13 for Combat Expertise, but it should much higher than that anyway because it's his main spellcasting stat. Dexterity needs to be at least 15 for Two Weapon Fighting, which leads to some MAD. Wisdom is a dump stat, as he's got a great will save and it fits Loki's flavor fairly well anyway. It'd be nice if he could pick up the fighter acf for dex mod to damage against flatfooted foes since that would fit the flavor nicely and cut down on the MAD a bit, but unfortunately it gives away heavy armor prof and that's required for spellsword. I'm a little iffy on the feats I have now and knowledge devotion comes later than I like, but I'm not sure how to fix that without going into Dark Chaos Feat Shuffling type cheese.

Anyway, you may be wondering why I've given him Improved Feint, since feint sucks as a combat action. The 6th level of Beguiler gives the ability to feint as a move action, or if you have improved feint, to feint as a swift action. Unfortunately, feinting only has the target lose their dex to AC for the next melee attack made against them (surprising riposte fixes this), but being able to feint as a swift action gives some options. Pick up the skill tricks Timely Misdirection and Group Fake-Out and opponents can't make attacks of opportunity against you if you succeed on feinting against them. Skill checks are pretty easy to optimize and few people put points into sense motive, so this is essentially a swift action for spellcasting in melee (It can't be shut down by mage slayer either since you're not casting defensively).

The rest of the build is fairly self explanatory. You get 9th level spells, 17 BA, 3d6 sneak attack, and some nice little bonuses from Abjurant Champion (unfortunately the beguiler has next to no abjuration spells) at 20th level. Gloves of the balanced hand are recommended so you get free(ish) improved two weapon fighting. I'm aware that two handed fighting is usually more optimal, but if I recall correctly, Loki uses two daggers (plus, the sneak attack and craven give some decent damage bonuses). If I recall correctly, the ruling is fuzzy on whether the first stance you take has to be first level, so you may want to scrap assassin's stance and martial study for other feats or take martial stance twice.

The build should get a pretty ridiculous number of skill points, with his high intelligence and being human. Some skill tricks I'm considering besides the two listed above are Acrobatic Backstab, Assume Quirk, Back on Your Feet, Clarity of Vision, Collector of Stories, Conceal Spellcasting, False Theurgy, Magical Appraisal, Mosquito's Bite, Second Impression, Social Recovery, and Swift Concentration (in case you can't tell, I really like skill tricks).

Any comments, recommendations, things I need to clarify, etc? It's not terribly optimized right now and is more a concept than a complete build.

[Falcon X]

Looks like a pretty straight-forward Gish build. I don't have too much to add.

My personal recommendation would to not go Gish. While Loki is a competent fighter, it really isn't his focus. He isn't squishy, but mostly relies on tricks in combat.
A level or two dips into Factotum or Swordsage might be more appropriate.

Another ridiculously cool build would be Theurging Swordsage and Beguiler. See if your DM will let you modify Jade Phoenix Mage into Ebon Phoenix Mage. The Phoenix Mage has full BAB, Arcane spell progression, and Martial Progression.
Beguiler3/Swordsage1/Phoenix Mage10/Beguiler6

[Jeff the Green]

Beguiler make lousy gishes, and abjurant champion is nearly pointless for them since they have no AC-boosting abjurations and relatively few that significantly benefit from quickening or extending (only Dispel Magic for the former and Mind Blank, Repulsion, and FoM for the latter). You're better off being an illusion-focused bard or sorcerer, to be honest. With only six levels, there's not much you're getting out of beguiler beyond Intelligence as a casting stat.

[Zetapup]

Looks like a pretty straight-forward Gish build. I don't have too much to add.

My personal recommendation would to not go Gish. While Loki is a competent fighter, it really isn't his focus. He isn't squishy, but mostly relies on tricks in combat.
A level or two dips into Factotum or Swordsage might be more appropriate.

Another ridiculously cool build would be Theurging Swordsage and Beguiler. See if your DM will let you modify Jade Phoenix Mage into Ebon Phoenix Mage. The Phoenix Mage has full BAB, Arcane spell progression, and Martial Progression.
Beguiler3/Swordsage1/Phoenix Mage10/Beguiler6

Yeah, it's not a totally accurate portrayal of Loki- I'm going gish because I haven't done it before and it sounds like fun.

I considered just going factotum at first for Loki, but I really dislike how much you need to get Font(s) of Inspiration (Although I'd definitely consider it if my dm allowed a homebrew with more inspiration points). The Ebon Phoenix Mage sounds like a really cool idea, actually. It'd fit the flavor very nicely while still being at a decent power level. If I ever play this as a character, I'll ask my dm about it.



Beguiler make lousy gishes, and abjurant champion is nearly pointless for them since they have no AC-boosting abjurations and relatively few that significantly benefit from quickening or extending (only Dispel Magic for the former and Mind Blank, Repulsion, and FoM for the latter). You're better off being an illusion-focused bard or sorcerer, to be honest. With only six levels, there's not much you're getting out of beguiler beyond Intelligence as a casting stat.

Abjurant Champion is there to advance BA and spellcasting. It still gives the ability to sacrifice a spell for some minor bonuses to attack/damage/whatnot, but I agree it's wasting Abjurant Champion's potential. Most of the reason I'm going Beguiler 6 is for the ability to feint as a swift action- it's not terribly powerful, but it allows for some nifty tricks that fit Loki's flavor nicely.

Intelligence is the other reason I'm going beguiler. I really like skill tricks/having lots of skills and most of these classes have low skill points per level so I need a decent intelligence.

However, sorceror or bard would allow me to actually use most of Abjurant Champion's class features. Hrm. I dunno, I just like the beguiler for some reason, but I may try the build out using sorceror or bard and see what difference it makes.

Thanks for the comments!

[Jeff the Green]

Are you interested in the effects or fluff of swift-action feinting? If the latter, you should be feinting constantly; it's a big part of basic swordplay. If the former, that's what the spell Distract Assailant (SpC) is for.

Intelligence-based casting is harder to manage as a spontaneous caster. Obviously wizards can manage it (with Uncanny Forethought), though that hurts your action economy. If this is for a real game, see about asking to backport in Pathfinder's sage bloodline, possibly as a feat with a relevant bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium (such as Illithid) as a prereq. Otherwise Aeshkrau or Uurkrau illuminate will let you reduce your Intelligence since you can use Strength or Dexterity for bonus spells.

If you do stick with beguiler, look into expanding the spell list. The bloodline feats will help, as will picking up Arcane Preparation, which will let you use the Luminous Armor spells (though you'll want to find a way to mask the light from those). There might be a good domain or two for you to grab through Arcane Disciple too; you only need to invest a modicum of point buy into Wisdom to use it.

The only way Assassin's Stance is worth two feats is if you get Craven out of the deal. Otherwise it's worth an average of 7 damage. You're better off with a something to increase spells known.

For factotum, have you seen Font of Inspiration? Assuming an ending Intelligence of 24 before items, that's a possible 28 extra IP, and it's really the only feat a factotum needs.

[Azoth]

In regards to Loki I am torn. Marvel portrays an entertaining and likeable version of Loki, but neglects some of his key features from Norse Mythology. The two most notable are his ability to shape shift (horse, wolf, fly, serpent, old lady) and his uncanny ability to know the dirt on absolutely everyone he wants to while remaining off of everyone's radars.

*Fun tidbit: Odin rides around on his adopted grandchild in the Marvel movies.*

Vecna Blooded Human would work for keeping him off of everyone's divination radars permanently for only +1LA, which is easily bought off.

Mulhorandi Divine Minion gets you outsider type and fear immunity. Not bad. The main kicker here is the wild shape as a lvl11 druid, with limited form selection mind you, but still incredibly useful for only +1 or +2 LA depending on which god. (Talk to DM about changing gods and animals to suit tastes.)

I saw Trickery Devotion, but no way to fuel it. Might I suggest dipping Sacred Exorcist at lvl10. 1Lvl gets you a turn undead pool, and between buffs, nightstick, reliquary holy symbol you should be able to power it a fair number of times per day.

I also have to agree with others. Loki wasn't a slouch in combat, but mele gish not much. If we aren't looking to Theurge (Loki was a master of godly and giant magics both), perhaps an Unseen Seer Build would work? Rogue1/wiz5/unseenseer3/sacred exorcist1/unseen seer+7/full caster prc 3.

[nedz]

You have no Turn Undead usages to fuel your Trickery Devotion
Feinting is a bit of a wash as tactics go


Consider a standard Gish build such as
Paladin (of freedom) 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / etc.

There are a number of options for finishing this progression, Sacred Exorcist would give you 3/4 BAB, Full casting and TU.

[Jeff the Green]

You have no Turn Undead usages to fuel your Trickery Devotion
Feinting is a bit of a wash as tactics go


Consider a standard Gish build such as
Paladin (of freedom) 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / etc.

There are a number of options for finishing this progression, Sacred Exorcist would give you 3/4 BAB, Full casting and TU.

And Loki is Good how? :smallconfused:

Unfortunately, there's no good way to get rebuking as a sorcerer (or beguiler, or any other caster without the native ability). You could dip cleric, DN, or death delver, but you'd lose both BAB and casting.

[Nihilarian]

I think Swiftblade would suit him better than Abjurant Champion.

[Zetapup]

Are you interested in the effects or fluff of swift-action feinting? If the latter, you should be feinting constantly; it's a big part of basic swordplay. If the former, that's what the spell Distract Assailant (SpC) is for.

Mostly the latter. It's not a very optimal combat strategy, unfortunately. I will look into Distract Assailant though.


Intelligence-based casting is harder to manage as a spontaneous caster. Obviously wizards can manage it (with Uncanny Forethought), though that hurts your action economy. If this is for a real game, see about asking to backport in Pathfinder's sage bloodline, possibly as a feat with a relevant bloodline feat from Dragon Compendium (such as Illithid) as a prereq. Otherwise Aeshkrau or Uurkrau illuminate will let you reduce your Intelligence since you can use Strength or Dexterity for bonus spells.

I'll be sure to ask about the bloodline thing. I'm not terribly attached to human for the race, so I'll check out Illumian and see if I like it more than human.


If you do stick with beguiler, look into expanding the spell list. The bloodline feats will help, as will picking up Arcane Preparation, which will let you use the Luminous Armor spells (though you'll want to find a way to mask the light from those). There might be a good domain or two for you to grab through Arcane Disciple too; you only need to invest a modicum of point buy into Wisdom to use it.

Ooh, I like that idea. Luminous Armor would allow me to actually use Abjurant Champion's abilities and it's reasonably close flavor-wise. Where's arcane disciple from? I'm AFAB right now and I can't recall what book it's in. I could probably fit in those feats if I got rid of assassin's stance and martial study.


The only way Assassin's Stance is worth two feats is if you get Craven out of the deal. Otherwise it's worth an average of 7 damage. You're better off with a something to increase spells known.

Yup, I've got craven at first level, although I suppose I get craven no matter what because of the sneak attack from fighter. Hrm. On second thought, I'm not sure that 2d6 extra sneak attack damage is worth 2 feats that I could use for extra spells. I think I'll cut out those two feats for arcane preparation/bloodline feats.


For factotum, have you seen Font of Inspiration? Assuming an ending Intelligence of 24 before items, that's a possible 28 extra IP, and it's really the only feat a factotum needs.

Huh, I somehow misread FoI the first time I read it. I thought you got 1 inspiration point each time you took it, which is lackluster. Now that I've reread it, I see why it's so good. That could make a factotum Loki very doable, actually.


In regards to Loki I am torn. Marvel portrays an entertaining and likeable version of Loki, but neglects some of his key features from Norse Mythology. The two most notable are his ability to shape shift (horse, wolf, fly, serpent, old lady) and his uncanny ability to know the dirt on absolutely everyone he wants to while remaining off of everyone's radars.

*Fun tidbit: Odin rides around on his adopted grandchild in the Marvel movies.*

Yeah I'm not familiar enough with the original mythology to make Norse Loki. I'll mostly stick to Marvel Loki's abilities for this. (I guess you could say that Odin is... Sleip-near his grandchild most of the time :smallcool: )


Vecna Blooded Human would work for keeping him off of everyone's divination radars permanently for only +1LA, which is easily bought off.

Mulhorandi Divine Minion gets you outsider type and fear immunity. Not bad. The main kicker here is the wild shape as a lvl11 druid, with limited form selection mind you, but still incredibly useful for only +1 or +2 LA depending on which god. (Talk to DM about changing gods and animals to suit tastes.)

Hrm, that's quite nice and both can be bought off in most games. If I do go more Norse Loki, I'll prolly use one or both of these templates.


I saw Trickery Devotion, but no way to fuel it. Might I suggest dipping Sacred Exorcist at lvl10. 1Lvl gets you a turn undead pool, and between buffs, nightstick, reliquary holy symbol you should be able to power it a fair number of times per day.

I wanted to do a cleric/something dip at some point for turning (plus it'd mean I could get knowledge devotion earlier) but if I do that, I lose a caster level and BA. The BA isn't a big deal, but if I lose any more caster levels, the build doesn't get 9th level spells. I'd like to be able to use trickery devotion more often, but I don't think it's worth 9th level spells. Maybe I'll do a divine version of this at some point which would let me get both? I'm not sure, the divine spell list is a bit lacking in illusion spells.


I also have to agree with others. Loki wasn't a slouch in combat, but mele gish not much. If we aren't looking to Theurge (Loki was a master of godly and giant magics both), perhaps an Unseen Seer Build would work? Rogue1/wiz5/unseenseer3/sacred exorcist1/unseen seer+7/full caster prc 3.

Hrm, y'all have a good point. I think I'll switch out the levels of eldritch knight for arcane trickster/unseen seer/something else. That'd mean I wouldn't lose a caster level on eldritch knight and could take sacred exorcist while still having 9th level spells.



You have no Turn Undead usages to fuel your Trickery Devotion
Feinting is a bit of a wash as tactics go


Consider a standard Gish build such as
Paladin (of freedom) 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / etc.

There are a number of options for finishing this progression, Sacred Exorcist would give you 3/4 BAB, Full casting and TU.

Yeah like I said above in this post, I couldn't dip cleric/something without losing 9th level spells. Going unseen seer/whatever else should let me take a level of sacred exorcist to fuel trickery devotion.

Feinting isn't optimal, it's mostly flavor. It allows me to sneak attack (sadly only for the first attack unless I have surprising riposte), which is kinda nice. I'm open to other feat suggestions though; 2 feats for swift action feinting isn't amazing.

Like Jeff the Green said, Loki isn't exactly Good :smalltongue:
I'd put him somewhere between CE and CN, depending on whether you're looking at the Norse mythology or Marvel, how you interpret his actions and motivations, etc.

My other problem with Sorcadin is that it has so few skill points. I picture Loki as having lots of skills and skill tricks. I guess you could have a high int, but that's getting pretty MAD with Cha as your primary casting stat, Con because you're a gish, and sorta Str because gish (this can be pumped with spells so it's not as big a deal).


Thanks for the comments! What would y'all think of me turning this into more of a "How Would You Build Loki" thread? I tend to stay around tier 3 with my builds, (part of my reason for choosing beguiler, actually) so we'll prolly all have different interpretations and builds. If this becomes a "How Would You Build Loki" thread, I can put all the builds in a spoiler in the first post with credit to the person who posted it.

[Falcon X]

Yeah, it's not a totally accurate portrayal of Loki- I'm going gish because I haven't done it before and it sounds like fun.

I considered just going factotum at first for Loki, but I really dislike how much you need to get Font(s) of Inspiration (Although I'd definitely consider it if my dm allowed a homebrew with more inspiration points). The Ebon Phoenix Mage sounds like a really cool idea, actually. It'd fit the flavor very nicely while still being at a decent power level. If I ever play this as a character, I'll ask my dm about it.

The idea of an Ebon Phoenix Mage as a kind of Paladin/Blackguard to Jade Phoenix Mage has been tossed around a lot in forums.
Here is somebody's homebrew, for reference. The only real change is switching out the affinity for fire with an affinity for cold, which is also very Loki-like.
http://blackmarches.wikidot.com/epm


Huh, I somehow misread FoI the first time I read it. I thought you got 1 inspiration point each time you took it, which is lackluster. Now that I've reread it, I see why it's so good. That could make a factotum Loki very doable, actually. Oh yeah. The exponential FoI means you only need to take it about three times to really feel the boost.
The strength of the Factotum lies in that it can fill any role, with preparation:
- Stacking in Knowledge Devotion to Cunning Insight actually give better To-Hit than Fighters for the beginning levels. Throw in a Bull's Strength spell and you're pushing a +9 to your BAB.
- It's Sneak Attack is truly an assassin's strike. You pile all your inspiration for the fight into one lethal blow and then get out of there.
- The Magic progression allows for any arcane spell in the game. Thus, giving you the right tool for the job if you prepare for it.
- Skills: Getting your class level added to all known skills + 6+Int/level skills. You can pretty much do anything.
- Everything Else: Brains over Brawn, Turn Undead, Extra actions, Feat Mimicking.

Not to convince you to switch over, but Factotum is a crazy good class that doesn't steal the game from other classes (Except maybe Rogue and Bard).

[Zetapup]

I think Swiftblade would suit him better than Abjurant Champion.

I'm kinda iffy about both, tbh. Neither fits the flavor especially well (speedy McHaste and abjuration McShield aren't too similar to Loki's illusion theme), but abjurant champion advances BA and spellcasting, which is what I was looking for when I was making the build. I'm open to changing it though, so if you want to give your reasoning behind why you think swiftblade fits better, go for it.


The idea of an Ebon Phoenix Mage as a kind of Paladin/Blackguard to Jade Phoenix Mage has been tossed around a lot in forums.
Here is somebody's homebrew, for reference. The only real change is switching out the affinity for fire with an affinity for cold, which is also very Loki-like.
http://blackmarches.wikidot.com/epm

Ooh thanks. It looks decent as far as I can tell with a quick skim. (You could say it's very... cool)


Oh yeah. The exponential FoI means you only need to take it about three times to really feel the boost.
The strength of the Factotum lies in that it can fill any role, with preparation:
- Stacking in Knowledge Devotion to Cunning Insight actually give better To-Hit than Fighters for the beginning levels. Throw in a Bull's Strength spell and you're pushing a +9 to your BAB.
- It's Sneak Attack is truly an assassin's strike. You pile all your inspiration for the fight into one lethal blow and then get out of there.
- The Magic progression allows for any arcane spell in the game. Thus, giving you the right tool for the job if you prepare for it.
- Skills: Getting your class level added to all known skills + 6+Int/level skills. You can pretty much do anything.
- Everything Else: Brains over Brawn, Turn Undead, Extra actions, Feat Mimicking.

Not to convince you to switch over, but Factotum is a crazy good class that doesn't steal the game from other classes (Except maybe Rogue and Bard).

If I do end up playing Loki, my dm is almost certain to allow factotum, (my dm can be iffy about excessive multiclassing, so I'm not sure if I'd be able to gish it up) so it's nice to know they're more useful than I thought. Plus, they fit Loki quite nicely imo