[PF] Dirty Trick Combat Maneuver

[Ziegander]

Is this combat maneuver ever worth using and/or investing in? At first it seemed really attractive as a fairly easy, mundane way to inflict a variety of status effects upon foes. But then I realized that I'd have to spend a standard action to gain the chance to inflict a status effect on a foe that they can just choose to undo with a move action. If I spend two feats investing in the maneuver, then I can trade standard action for standard action and still seem to come out boned because I'll never have a 100% chance to do so.

Am I missing something, or is Dirty Trick a total trap?

[Kudaku]

I think there are some ways of improving the action economy on Dirty Tricks to make it viable, but I can't recollect the solution right now. I'll do some googling and get back to you. :smallsmile:

Edit: Greater Dirty Trick requires the target to spend a standard action to remove the condition and it lasts for multiple rounds, Quick Dirty Trick lets you trade one of your attacks in a full attack for a Dirty Trick move.

While still somewhat underwhelming considering the feat cost and how late it comes online, it could be a viable path for a TWF rogue for instance - dirty trick your opponent and give him the blind condition for 1D4 rounds, then spend the rest of your full attack stabbing him for sneak attack damage. On his round he either has to attack you through blindness (and get stabbed again next round) or waste his standard action removing the condition, which means he's not getting any attacks.

Unfortunately it runs into the typical problem for maneuver builds in PF - CMD scales very very fast compared to CMB. It'll be hard for a rogue to get a CMB high enough to consistently stick the Dirty Trick roll.

[Vanitas]

I think there are some ways of improving the action economy on Dirty Tricks to make it viable, but I can't recollect the solution right now. I'll do some googling and get back to you. :smallsmile:

There is a feat to use a dirty trick as one of your attacks in a full-attack, instead of a standard action. Also, Pit Fighter prc.

[Dienekes]

Is this combat maneuver ever worth using and/or investing in? At first it seemed really attractive as a fairly easy, mundane way to inflict a variety of status effects upon foes. But then I realized that I'd have to spend a standard action to gain the chance to inflict a status effect on a foe that they can just choose to undo with a move action. If I spend two feats investing in the maneuver, then I can trade standard action for standard action and still seem to come out boned because I'll never have a 100% chance to do so.

Am I missing something, or is Dirty Trick a total trap?

Basically, it's use is preventing full-round actions and eventually removing the target's standard action. The feat investment is two much, but that's par for the course with Pathfinder feats. Look what they did to trip.

Also, what is the word on Dirty Trick and Attacks of Opportunity? Personally, it sounds like removing the status effect would provoke one as it is by it's nature dealing with a distraction from combat. But because it's a nice thing in Pathfinder I'm a little unsure if that's intentional.

[Kudaku]

There might be an archetype or a prestige class I'm not aware of, but I think the closest you're going to get to AoO Dirty Tricks is the Cad's 7th level ability - Deadly Surprise (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/cad). Even that is not AoO specific but seems like it would be triggered by AoOs as long as your opponent is denied his dexterity bonus.

Edit: Rereading your post, I just understood what you meant. Removing a dirty trick condition does not provoke an AoO by default, though the pit fighter is an exception to the general rule.

[Vanitas]

Quick Dirty Trick (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-dirty-trick-combat) - use your highest melee attack bonus for a dirty trick, instead of a standard action

Cad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/cad) gets bonus to dirty tricks, as well as the possibility of making one as an immediate action at 7th level.

Dirty Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-orc/dirty-fighter-fighter-orc) gets bonus to dirty tricks and gets an ability similar to Quick Dirty Trick at 9th level (but it's more flexible - you can use any of your attacks, instead of the better attack bonus). At 13th level you apply two conditions at once, each takes a separate action to remove.

Pit Fighter
(http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/n-r/pit-fighter) gains the ability to deal damage when you use a dirty trick at 3rd level and gains Quick Dirty Trick as a bonus feat at 6th level.

Burglar's Buckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/specific-magic-shields/burglar-s-buckler) is cheap and gives a bonus to dirty tricks. It stacks with Gauntlets of the Skilled Maneuver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/gauntlets-of-the-skilled-maneuver).

Several options, really.

[grarrrg]

Am I missing something, or is Dirty Trick a total trap?

Not a total trap, as it is a way for mundanes to inflict various status conditions.
The odds of success may not seem that great though.

First problem is the action economy.
It stinks.
Quick Dirty (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-dirty-trick-combat) Trick feat seems almost mandatory, but there are a couple other options.

1 level (or more) of Maneuver Master Monk allows you to add a Free Maneuver to any Full Attack, and as he levels gets further options to improve the odds (and gets more Flurry attempts). Also gets free (no requirements needed) access to Improved Dirty Trick (and if taken until level 6 can get Greater at no requirements as well).

Unarmed Fighters can attempt a Dirty Trick for free, but only on a successful Trip attempt (lets skip this one...overly feat intensive).

Cad (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/cad) Fighters get a scaling bonus to Dirty Tricks (among other things) and at 7th can get free Dirty Trick attempts against "Denied DEX opponents" by spending an Immediate Action (yeah, this one kinda sucks too...).

Rogues/Ninjas can take Sneak Maneuvers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/rogue-talents/sneaky-maneuver-ex) Rogue Talent. You can skip dealing Sneak Attack damage to get a free Dirty Trick attempt instead (costs a Swift Action, so only 1/turn). Seems like a cruddy deal for a straight Rogue/Ninja, but for a 2 level dip investment? Might be worth it.

Final option: OUTSOURCING!
Huntmaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/huntmaster) Cavalier gets either a Dog or Bird Animal Companion. Starting at level 3 the Companion may make a Free Dirty Trip (limited effects) after successful melee attack. And they do NOT provoke AoO's by doing so.


So Maneuver Monk seems like the best bet (at least to start with), and a 2 level dip into Rogue/Ninja would work for other classes.
What else can we do with it?
Pit Fighter (as mentioned) can still deal normal damage on a successful Dirty Trick (but must have a free hand, and only 1/round).

The last option I found is potentially quite hilarious.
Aspis Agent (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/aspis-agent), at level 5 they get a 1/2 class level bonus to Dirty Tricks.
AND
may then delay the effect of the successful check for up to 1 day per class level, spending an immediate action to trigger it later.
I can see this being quite entertaining in a more Role-Play oriented campaign, as you can basically rig anyone/everyone's pants to fall down at your command.


Final Verdict:
It gives mundanes a way to inflict various status conditions, but is very niche, and hard to optimize to be useable.

EDIT: Partial ninja'd by 2 minutes!

[Lord Vukodlak]

The dirty trick is not a one on one kind of situation its a team effort, a blinded foe is suddenly flat-foot for the rest of the party. Fear effects still stack so having an ally make a foe shaken before you cast fear could be quite useful.

Not everything has to be a great PC option either, NPC's who out number the PC's two to one(or more) could make great use of dirty tricks.