What's non-lethal damage and does it hurt?

[The Insanity]

What it says in the title.

[HammeredWharf]

Depends on its source. Some of it is fluffed as making you feel dizzy or weak. On the other hand, getting whacked with a sap definitely hurts.

[Thurbane]

Unarmed attacks are nonlethal damage. Ever been punched in the face? Yep, it hurts.

But as HammeredWharf says, might depend somewhat on the exact source.

[SPoilaaja]

Not getting damage can hurt too. For example I'd expect that an intelligent undead can to feel pain, thus a shocktrooping ubercharger hitting the undead with a merciful weapon(or taking a -4 to hit) hurts the undead.

[Killer Angel]

Yes, it hurts. After all, is damage.

[Telonius]

There would probably be a couple of forms that don't actually cause physical pain. Nonlethal damage due to cold would probably not "hurt," since the damage is going to be to the nerves.

[The Insanity]

Yes, it hurts. After all, is damage.
Not even lethal damage is necessarily actual wounds or even contact, so yeah, we can't suggest ourselves with words.


There would probably be a couple of forms that don't actually cause physical pain. Nonlethal damage due to cold would probably not "hurt," since the damage is going to be to the nerves.
I'd consider that pain. I'm not specifying physical pain. If "hurt" implies that, then sorry, but I meant pain in general.

While we're at it, how do you fluff non-lethal? Unarmed damage or cold are pretty obvious, of course. I guess... it's things that don't do any physical harm, maybe things that tire you out?

[Amphetryon]

Unarmed attacks are nonlethal damage. Ever been punched in the face? Yep, it hurts.

But as HammeredWharf says, might depend somewhat on the exact source.

Thurbane said pretty much exactly what I came here to say.

[Killer Angel]

Not even lethal damage is necessarily actual wounds or even contact, so yeah, we can't suggest ourselves with words.

Right, then I'll say that it depends from the source of the damage itself.
Nonlethal damage dealt by a weapon? it hurts.
Nonlethal damage from being exhausted? it doesn't hurt. And probaly it's not even painful.

[HammeredWharf]

Whelm from PHB2 and Reserves of Strength from Age of Mortals are examples of sources of non-lethal damage that may not hurt. Whelm "wears at the target's mind", but whether that hurts or not is up to you. I imagine it might cause a headache.

[Chronos]

Some sources of nonlethal damage are nothing but hurt. You don't actually physically affect the target, but you make them feel the pain of it, causing the same effect as if they'd actually been damaged.

[NotScaryBats]

Look at page 12 of Sandstorm. Some extreme temperatures cause you to take nonlethal damage in a "wow, its hot outside" kind of way. The books says: "Characters can take damage from such extreme heat, a condition generally referred to as heatstroke. At lower temperatures, this damage starts off as nonlethal while the character is still conscious, but it becomes lethal for those already rendered unconscious by heatstroke (with no saving throw allowed)."

After 140 degrees, it starts to deal lethal damage, FWIW.

[sambouchah]

Generally I like to run normal damage(up to half hit points) as the enemy not actually hitting you and instead you're parrying or it's all glancing 'til that point. Then I run most Non-lethal as hurting, whether from aches or punches or whatever.

But yeah, Thurbane is right!

[FullStop]

All aboard the subjective train!
Were it me, I'd define non-lethal damage as being anything between contributing toward the target ceasing to be able to fight (without causing any actual harm, e.g. pain effects), up to any sort of physical harm that can be safely left untreated (e.g. really ugly welts from someone whacking your soft tissues with the pommel of a sword, or very shallow wounds/scrapes).

[Talionis]

Most things I would think are non-lethal damage would also do internal damage or give you concussions that could be permanent damage. I'd love a good example of real non-lethal damage.

[ZamielVanWeber]

While we're at it, how do you fluff non-lethal? Unarmed damage or cold are pretty obvious, of course. I guess... it's things that don't do any physical harm, maybe things that tire you out?

Achy soreness. Actually, general soreness seems like a good analog for non-lethal.

[Red Fel]

Look! I brought you an SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryandDeath.htm#nonlethalDamage)!


Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.


When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round. You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.

When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.


You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 hit point per hour per character level.

When a spell or a magical power cures hit point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

The gist: Nonlethal damage constitutes sources of pain or discomfort, but not serious injury. Getting punched in the face might bruise you, but (unless fighting a much stronger or more capable opponent) it isn't likely to cause you the same caliber of injury that getting hit with a sword or fireball might. Similarly, being exposed to severe heat or cold, or pushing yourself past your limit, is going to hurt, and will harm the body in various ways, but resting can help you recover from these, while it won't help you recover from having an arm ripped off quite as easily.

Does that cover anything, or were there more questions?

[Chronos]

Quoth Talionis:

I'd love a good example of real non-lethal damage.
In real life, anything that can knock you out also has an uncomfortably high chance of just plain killing you. This is one of the ways that the game does not correspond to real life (though it does correspond to a lot of fiction).

[Jeff the Green]

Right, then I'll say that it depends from the source of the damage itself.
Nonlethal damage dealt by a weapon? it hurts.
Nonlethal damage from being exhausted? it doesn't hurt. And probaly it's not even painful.

Haven't you ever been so tired you start aching? Up until that point you probably haven't been taking non-lethal damage.

[shylocke]

In real life, anything that can knock you out also has an uncomfortably high chance of just plain killing you. This is one of the ways that the game does not correspond to real life (though it does correspond to a lot of fiction).

A pillow fight deals nonlethal.

[Killer Angel]

Haven't you ever been so tired you start aching? Up until that point you probably haven't been taking non-lethal damage.

Sure I have, but for example, some long distance runner may collapse, and probably at that point they don't feel pain.

[SPoilaaja]

Sure I have, but for example, some long distance runner may collapse, and probably at that point they don't feel pain.

They probably would feel pain without all that endorphin and adrenaline in their system. You know how after something very long and exhausting, you feel great, but later that evening you might experience tendon pain and such.

[Killer Angel]

They probably would feel pain without all that endorphin and adrenaline in their system. You know how after something very long and exhausting, you feel great, but later that evening you might experience tendon pain and such.

Yep, but the nonlethal damage won't wait the evening.

(Man, to apply real life reasoning to D&D, is a losed battle...)

[SPoilaaja]

Is adrenaline and endorphin a DM granted morale bonus to offset the penalties of fatigue and non-lethal damage? :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Is adrenaline and endorphin a DM granted morale bonus to offset the penalties of fatigue and non-lethal damage? :smallbiggrin:

Nah, morale bonus it's the cheering crowd. :smalltongue:

[Osiris]

They probably would feel pain without all that endorphin and adrenaline in their system. You know how after something very long and exhausting, you feel great, but later that evening you might experience tendon pain and such.

If you can't breathe fast enough for your lungs to take in oxygen (based on con score?), you're using Fermentation, which produces lactic acid as a waste. That stuff goes into your muscle cells, and that causes that annoying pain when you stop running and your legs hurt
That guy's probably got a ton of it coursing through his system.

[Slipperychicken]

A pillow fight deals nonlethal.

Have you ever heard of someone getting knocked unconscious by a pillow fight?


Nonlethal damage due to cold would probably not "hurt," since the damage is going to be to the nerves.

It hurts at first, especially if you're exposed and there's a strong biting wind.


In real life, anything that can knock you out also has an uncomfortably high chance of just plain killing you. This is one of the ways that the game does not correspond to real life (though it does correspond to a lot of fiction).

Yeah, I would prefer more combat systems to include the possibility of accidentally killing people with "less than lethal" attacks. Like lethally hitting someone in the forehead with a tear gas canister, causing brain hemorrhaging with a truncheon, or cracking someone's skull open with the flat of a blade.

[shylocke]

Yes i seen some one knocked out by a pillow. My cousin stuffed a full body pillow into a normal case and smoked our other cousin with it. Broken nose and out cold. First cousin is twice our age though and it was about twelve years ago.

[ericgrau]

IRL enough nonlethal damage can kill you but 1 or 2 good hits with lethal damage can kill you faster. So think of something that bashes someone over and over again before doing serious damage and that's nonlethal. In D&D we don't worry about converting it to lethal after 10 hits, because anything serious rarely lasts that long.

[Afgncaap5]

As has already been said, it probably depends on the type of non-lethal damage and the source. My favorite example of non-painful non-lethal damage would probably be an arrow of sleep which doesn't "put you to sleep" so much as it deals non-lethal damage equal to the number of hit points that you have so that you fall asleep. I'd be willing to bet this arrow doesn't hurt (though YMMV.)

[A Tad Insane]

It's like getting kicked in the guts until you vomit blood, or spin around until everything is upside down. You won't die, but you're definitely not going to fight back at that point