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ArmoredSandwich
2014-02-14, 07:55 AM
Hi Guys,

How do you guys balance the party? As a DM I get a lot of requests if certain things are allowed. Some are perfectly reasonable but some are just extremely overpowered. For example, I have one player who asks for an animal companion which, by itself, is a lot stronger than most of the other characters in the party.

In the past I have tried to balance such requests, by nerfing what they ask for. But I am getting a bit tired by this. I am the bad guy if I misjudge the request and disallow one request of one player, and allow another request from a different player. Ideally I would just allow anything RAW except for the game breaking cases. Unfortunately, I think the persons behind the characters would not apply enough common sense and break the game or at least the fun.

The thing is, I think the developers of the game had a lot more experience and time to think over these balancing issues than I have (although I can focus more on the balancing issues in regards to the party as opposed to ALL the other content of the game).

Do you guys have tips on how to deal with this? How do you deal with this stuff yourself? Is it just part of the DM job to go over every request?

Thanks!

BWR
2014-02-14, 08:15 AM
You are the DM, it is your job to state what you will accept in the game. Game designers don't generally think like optimizers - they tend to design their elements in if not a vacuum then with little regard to everything else for the game - that's why you get such ridiculous RAW legal stuff as Pun-Pun, the Wish and the Word, the Tippyverse and more.
Setting clear limits for what you will accept is a necessary part of making a good game when you have varying levels of optimization among players. Some DM's, myself included, will generally let players do what they want having given them guidelines. Of course, most players I know, myself included, will ask for permission for anything that hasn't been previously OK'd or seems a bit too powerful.

You have two options for maintaining balance: ban/nerf and empower.
It's possible to try to help other players build stronger characters - point out options they may have overlooked, make suggestions about tactics and whatnot. You can combine the two approaches.

Also, how badly does party imbalance affect play? As long as everyone is having a good time and doesn't feel entirely useless, strict balance isn't a primary concern. Considering the wealth of options and situations you an encounter, it's hard to qualify balance.

Personally, most of my groups are pretty sensible. One player will build something he likes, then go through 3-4 rounds of self-nerfing the build before presenting it to the DM, usually to have something nerfed in play. Then he's about on par with the rest of us even if arguably the most powerful character in the group. One fellow DM will regularly ban certain options, usually spells or certain PrCs because he thinks they will get in the way of how he runs the game, but all his players run everythingby him first and they can usually guess beforehand what he will object to - they just try mostly to annoy him rather than from any real hope of getting it accepted.

hemming
2014-02-14, 08:45 AM
I usually try to compromise with the player to some degree ... here is why I can't/won't allow it, but what if we used this variant and you got something different

- sometimes I just lay down some ground rules and ask the player to make a counterproposal

- Or buy time and make something homebrew/variant that is unique to the character (and at a power level you want) so they feel like they got something extra special instead of just getting nerfed

As long as you do the same for the other PCs now and again, then no one should really feel unfairly treated

Depends on what they character is after too...if they want an animal companion for roleplaying purposes and not so much for combat effectiveness then the compromise is pretty easy

I also tend to run smaller size games (3-5 PCs)...so I imagine trying to work with every player so closely and keep things balanced might be exhausting in bigger/more fluid groups

Amphetryon
2014-02-14, 10:33 AM
As much as possible, create a ban list (or allowed list depending on POV) to let Players know what level of shenanigans optimization/power-gaming you're looking to set the game at. When someone comes to you with a request that's not on your list, it becomes a little easier - in my experience - to compare the requested material to your ban list and see if there's an obvious parallel. It then becomes easier to say "Sorry, Pat, but [X] reads as really close to [Y] which is already on the ban list, so I'm going to have to say 'no.'" Then add any newly banned items to the list, so you don't forget and everyone's on the same page.

This method is not infallible, and it's entirely likely that mistakes in judgment will be made. At that point, it becomes your job to talk to the Player. "Sorry, Robin; on paper, Feat [A] didn't look too strong, but the way you've combined it with ability [Q] makes you considerably stronger than I anticipated, and it seems like it's interfering with the fun of the other folks at the table. I'll let you retrain it into another, approved Feat for free."

valadil
2014-02-14, 10:47 AM
Aside from my first game which was a learning experience, I don't think I've ever banned anything. Basically I don't invite players who are only there for optimization and I make a point to help out the players who make weak characters. That's usually enough.

ArmoredSandwich
2014-02-14, 12:15 PM
Thanks for the tips! I really need some kind of system. I think the banlist could work, or help at the very least.

Rhynn
2014-02-14, 12:34 PM
1. Gentlefolk's agreement with the players. (Requires non-jerk players.)
2. Case-by-case review. (Requires enormous knowledge of the system and its weak points.)
3. Play a game with less byzantine mechanics...

zionpopsickle
2014-02-14, 12:49 PM
The thing about a ban list is it is only really necessary if you have immature players who will actually need what they can't do written out. If your play group is mature you should be able to easily just tell them what level of power you are looking for.

One thing to be careful of is to avoid an adversarial mindset when attempting to balance the party. It is perfectly acceptable in many game types for the players to be awesome, to be able to handle most tasks with relative ease and generally be the baddest mofos around. If they defeat your challenges because they are smart or because they prepare accordingly or for myriad reasons other than simply leaning on certain mechanical abilities this is not a defeat for you as the DM but simply a victory for the party.

For the most part, a mature and responsible group will balance themselves out of a desire to maximize the fun of the other players.

Amphetryon
2014-02-14, 02:33 PM
The thing about a ban list is it is only really necessary if you have immature players who will actually need what they can't do written out. If your play group is mature you should be able to easily just tell them what level of power you are looking for.

One thing to be careful of is to avoid an adversarial mindset when attempting to balance the party. It is perfectly acceptable in many game types for the players to be awesome, to be able to handle most tasks with relative ease and generally be the baddest mofos around. If they defeat your challenges because they are smart or because they prepare accordingly or for myriad reasons other than simply leaning on certain mechanical abilities this is not a defeat for you as the DM but simply a victory for the party.

For the most part, a mature and responsible group will balance themselves out of a desire to maximize the fun of the other players.

Only true if the group has played together or communicated very effectively what a given 'level of power' means, as it varies widely from group to group, and person to person. For evidence of this, consider how many people have considered Fighter in 3.X 'the strongest member of the group,' or considered a Rifts Glitterboy 'about the right power level.' From a personal example, the first time an old group I was in played a 1-shot of Mutants & Masterminds, the GM thought a strict point buy would be sufficient; one person effectively doubled the power level the GM expected by using the Powered Armor rules, while another made Legion, and only the person who made an homage to Bullseye 'got' the power level the GM was anticipating (by the GM's own admission).

Tengu_temp
2014-02-14, 03:35 PM
A ban list is a bad idea. It gives the players a message of "if it's not on the list, it's allowed". Also, a player who wants to break the game will find a way no matter what you ban, and a player who will be a good sport doesn't need such a list.

I simply look over every character sheet given to me, compare the characters to each other, and decide if someone is too overpowered. If a player asks if something is allowed, I look at the thing they're asking for and then give my answer. Being able to make good judgements comes with time and experience, but as long as you play with good sports who don't try to intentionally break the game, you should have a more or less balanced party even if you're new to the system.

Waar
2014-02-14, 04:02 PM
By having the most knowledge of character creation/optimisation and asking the players to make characters of roughly the same power level.

jedipotter
2014-02-15, 05:47 PM
The thing is, I think the developers of the game had a lot more experience and time to think over these balancing issues than I have (although I can focus more on the balancing issues in regards to the party as opposed to ALL the other content of the game).

Do you guys have tips on how to deal with this? How do you deal with this stuff yourself? Is it just part of the DM job to go over every request?


Your wrong about the developers. They balanced nothing. They might have well just guessed everything.

It is a big part of the DM's job to go over every request. You could just do it the easy way, of course, and just give in.

A ban list is a good idea. It gives a ganaral idea of what you like/want/don't want to the players. So if the Tome of Battle is on your list, they won't bother asking about some other crazy martial class that gets ''spells''.

You might also want some Houserules. If you change the rules, if often fixes all the little things. For example if you make the rule: The DM controls all animal companions. Then the player does not get to play a second character.