The Cores of the Core Classes - What are they?

[Ernir]

Lately, I've been thinking about what the unique abilities of the core class archetypes really are.

What is it that Rogues do that makes Rogues Rogues? And what is it that only Rogues can do that no one else can? I'm having a hard time narrowing it down. Rogues are sneaky, but Rangers are also sneaky. Rogues are stabby, but Fighters are also stabby.

It has been pointed out to me that Rogues are much better at taking advantage of surprise than anyone else. I happen to agree that this is a really defining trait for all Rogues, so I can write down "Rogues take advantage of surprise" as a core Rogue trait. (It being beside the point that someone with powerful spells can probably wreak more havoc than someone with a powerful SA - the point being that the Rogue has more than most to gain from flat-footed opponents.)

Do you agree? And what about the other classes?

Which brings me to the final question: What are the defining abilities of the core classes? What are the traits that every member of the class has in common, and what traits are unique to the class?

I'd like to hear some opinions. :smallsmile:

[Prime32]

What is it that Rogues do that makes Rogues Rogues? And what is it that only Rogues can do that no one else can? I'm having a hard time narrowing it down. Rogues are sneaky, but Rangers are also sneaky. Rogues are stabby, but Fighters are also stabby.Rangers are supposed to be advanced recon, border patrol or guerilla warriors, surviving for long times in inhospitable terrain and learning how to use it to their benefit. Also dual-wielding because uh... I got nothing. IRL "ranger" usually refers to a member of a special forces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_forces) team, meaning that in most war-based campaigns the entire party are technically rangers.

Rogues have skills more useful in an urban environment (lying through your teeth, working with technology, etc.). They're not very tough, but they're quick-witted and fight dirty.

Fighters are generic "guys with combat training" who don't have any quirks that would put them into another class. Most rank-and-file soldiers are fighters (or warriors if their training is poor).

[OldTrees1]

What are the minimum traits for a class to feel like a Rogue?

Lots of skill points & permission to find magical traps (Trapfinding)

In core no other class had both traits.
Later Ranger gained access to Trapfinding[Dungeonscape] and Cleric gained access to both Trapfinding[Races of the Dragon web enhancement] and lots of skill points[Unearthed Arcana].

[Curmudgeon]

Rogues handle traps. A party of 4 Rogues can breeze through Tomb of Horrors; you can't say that about any other class or combination. Regardless of what later classes (Scout, Factotum, & c.) have in the way of trapfinding, Rogues are still better than any other class when it comes to dealing with traps. Look at all these spells which are very specific about who can handle them:
Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Fire Trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Glyph of Warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Spike Growth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeGrowth.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Spike Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeStones.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Symbol of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfFear.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Insanity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfInsanity.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfSleep.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Stunning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfStunning.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Weakness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfWeakness.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
A Symbol of Death will kill a Factotum when they get within 60' of it. A Rogue simply uses Search and Disable Device on that magic trap and it's no problem.

In general, Rogues do all the stealthy things.

[OldTrees1]

Regardless of what later classes (Scout, Factotum, & c.) have in the way of trapfinding, Rogues are still better than any other class when it comes to dealing with traps. Look at all these spells which are very specific about who can handle them

Wow. I think that was an oversight. Those spells seem to be referring to the Trapfinding ability (which was Rogue only at the time). But instead specifying the Trapfinding ability, they specified Rogue. Might be worth keeping or houseruling away.

[Jeff the Green]

Wow. I think that was an oversight. Those spells seem to be referring to the Trapfinding ability (which was Rogue only at the time). But instead specifying the Trapfinding ability, they specified Rogue. Might be worth keeping or houseruling away.

Houseruling. Otherwise there's one basic thing only rogues can do, which is true of no other class in the game.

[Vhaidara]

Rogues handle traps. A party of 4 Rogues can breeze through Tomb of Horrors; you can't say that about any other class or combination. Regardless of what later classes (Scout, Factotum, & c.) have in the way of trapfinding, Rogues are still better than any other class when it comes to dealing with traps. Look at all these spells which are very specific about who can handle them:
Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Fire Trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Glyph of Warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Spike Growth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeGrowth.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Spike Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeStones.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Symbol of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfFear.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Insanity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfInsanity.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfSleep.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Stunning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfStunning.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Weakness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfWeakness.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
A Symbol of Death will kill a Factotum when they get within 60' of it. A Rogue simply uses Search and Disable Device on that magic trap and it's no problem.

In general, Rogues do all the stealthy things.

Why is it that Factotum dies to those? Factotum also has Trapfinding (able to find and disable magic traps) and has both Search and Disable Device on their skill list. Actually, this applies to Spellthief, Ninja, and Beguiler as well (scouts don't get disable device)

[Jeff the Green]

Why is it that Factotum dies to those? Factotum also has Trapfinding (able to find and disable magic traps) and has both Search and Disable Device on their skill list. Actually, this applies to Spellthief, Ninja, and Beguiler as well (scouts don't get disable device)

The spells' descriptions.

Also, scouts do get DD; it was errataed.

[Amphetryon]

The spells' descriptions.

Also, scouts do get DD; it was errataed.

The spells' descriptions, which simply never got updated to include new Classes becoming available that had Trapfinding. Claiming this is RAW is one thing; claiming this is a deliberate design choice is a rather more strenuous statement to verify.

[Ernir]

Rangers are supposed to be advanced recon, border patrol or guerilla warriors, surviving for long times in inhospitable terrain and learning how to use it to their benefit. Also dual-wielding because uh... I got nothing.

Hmm. Dual-wielding is iconic for Rangers, but hardly unique to them. Anyone can dual-wield.

Rangers are survivalists by concept, but looking through the stuff they have, the only thing they're really much better at than other classes when it comes to the wild is finding (read: Tracking down) particular creatures. The Barbarian is just as good at Survival.

Tough class to refine. :smallconfused:


Rogues have skills more useful in an urban environment (lying through your teeth, working with technology, etc.). They're not very tough, but they're quick-witted and fight dirty.

Isn't the Bard kind of similar here? They have all the social skills and the UMD too, right?


Fighters are generic "guys with combat training" who don't have any quirks that would put them into another class. Most rank-and-file soldiers are fighters (or warriors if their training is poor).

I guess you're right. Fighters are, at least by fluff, the only ones with formal combat training.

Not that it mechanically matters, since in D&D no one breaks under morale or lies down to die if wounded, but hey, that's the stuff they have, I guess...


permission to find magical traps (Trapfinding)

In core no other class had both traits.

Rogues handle traps.

Ooo, nice point.

Other classes poked in on it more outside core, but to begin with, Trapmonkey = Rogue.

[Yorrin]

I think the roles are best defined by contrasting them with each other. For example:

Barbarian= strong unedeucated warrior. Contrast with Fighter.

Bard= the noisy social guy. Contrast with Rogue.

Cleric= priest of a god. Contrast with Druid/Paladin.

Druid= priest of nature. Contrast with Cleric/Ranger.

Fighter= trained, disciplined weapons user. Contrast with Barbarian/Monk.

Monk= disciplined martial-arts user. Contrast with Fighter.

Paladin= warrior of a god. Contrast with Cleric.

Ranger= warrior of nature. Contrast with Druid.

Rogue= stealthy antisocial guy. Contrast with Bard.

Sorcerer= free spirited magic. Contrast with Wizard.

Wizard= structured magic via study. Contrast with Sorcerer.

[Prime32]

I think the roles are best defined by contrasting them with each other. For example:

Barbarian= strong unedeucated warrior. Contrast with Fighter.Why does the uneducated guy have more skill points and class skills? :smalltongue:

[OldTrees1]

Why does the uneducated guy have more skill points and class skills? :smalltongue:

Because book learning takes away from time you could be training?

[zimmerwald1915]

Why does the uneducated guy have more skill points and class skills? :smalltongue:
Notice: this post is kinda stream-of-consciousness and tends to meander.

Hmm...maybe certain kinds of education can limit people's horizons and foster specialization over broadmindedness? I don't think that's it, however. Fighter hit dice (and Cleric, Paladin, Sorcerer, and Wizard hit dice) grant the same number of skill points as humanoid hit dice. Other classes that grant 4+int skill points per hit die include Druid and Monk. Maybe the answer lies in finding a commonality between them? All three have alignment restrictions, but so do the Paladin, which grants 2+int skill points per hit die, and the Bard, which grants 6+int. What's more, their alignment restrictions aren't the same. The hit die sizes vary, with Barbarian being d12 and the other two being d8. So do BAB progression and save progression...

[KorbeltheReader]

Well, if you think about from the perspective of the historical organization of the classes and focus on core, the sleight of hand skill was only given to the two "rogue" classes (rogue and bard). The 4 "warrior" classes are the only ones proficient in all martial weapons (barb, fighter, ranger, paladin). The 2 "priest" classes have full divine casting (cleric and druid), and the 2 "mage" classes have full arcane casting (wizard and sorcerer).

Monk is an odd man out, to no one's surprise I imagine.

Future books then released various classes and abilities that muddle the boundaries between archetype, because blurring those lines is fun, but that's how it starts.

[Hurnn]

Why does the uneducated guy have more skill points and class skills? :smalltongue:

because terrible design

[Curmudgeon]

Why is it that Factotum dies to those? Factotum also has Trapfinding (able to find and disable magic traps) and has both Search and Disable Device on their skill list. Actually, this applies to Spellthief, Ninja, and Beguiler as well (scouts don't get disable device)
The Factotum can use their Trapfinding exactly as listed, including using Search exactly as listed. The distance limit for Search is 10'. The triggering distance for Symbol of Death is 60'. The spell specifies that only a Rogue can find and disable it, granting a specific exception. Factotum, Scout (which does get Disable Device), Spellthief, Ninja, and Beguiler all die within 60' of this magic trap.