I'm in troubles.. again.

[Dreadgrim]

Hi to all GiP users.

I have a problem about keeping a quest running smoothly.

The PCs are in Sharn, investigating on a weird assault happened in the elven neighborhood, Shae Lias.

They gathered some pieces of information but still have to see the crime scene, and overall they have no clue. They also have a couple other roads still worth investigating.. the healer that tried to save the victim, for instance, even if she didn't see the attack.

I wonder how to point them to the current hideout of the baddie.. I was thinking about some other part of the city.

Mind that the aggressor is an incorporeal creature, which has a little elvish child following him..

Do you think it is even possible to continue this investigation smoothly?

[HaikenEdge]

Honestly, I think the PCs can learn as much from their failures as their successes; if they haven't a clue and can't figure it out, let the story run its course, but rather than having the PCs solve it, let it progress to a point where the story reaches its logical conclusion, but without the intervention of the PCs.

That's to say, have an epilogue where you tell the PCs, because they failed to find and stop the creature, more killings occurred, leading to the community being damaged or forced to vacate. Alternatively, let them hear about another group who did manage to stop the baddie, but not without further cost to the population due to the PCs own ineptitude.

Basically, if they have no clue how to proceed, it seems the smoothest progression of the investigation is to have it peter out on their end if they don't go seek out an expert for help; if they genuinely want to solve the problem, then it becomes even more powerful because there can be a realization they can't do it all themselves.

Of course, if you want to just forge ahead despite the PCs not having a clue, you can always plop in a nosy private investigator or something of that sort for them to trade notes with.

[Dreadgrim]

I would agree with you but the problem is, I didn't really build a way to progress. That's why I am in troubles. It's kind of my fault. :)

I prepared some places to investigate, and they did, there are others that they will see, even if they will not be that useful. But the actual "next step" appears out of reach. There is no meaningful way to glue phase 1 (investigation) and phase 2 (finding the place) because I don't really know how a person is supposed to find somebody in a big city. Not even in real life.

They agreed to meet with another guy that is investigating. He is an urban druid that throws a lot of rave parties (no questions). Maybe he knows enough people to have some witnesses tell him the overall direction where the offender fled? Still seems a weak track.

[graeylin]

In my gaming experience, be bold and blunt.

We have in our DM minds all these threads and clues, that weave a nice tapestry. We see the beginning, the end, the progression. We become invested in the NPC's, who they are, how they belong to each other, etc..

As a player... I see a bunch of crap threads in a wad.

I've played with an excellent DM, and he had hugely complex, layer after layer deep insightful worlds. And I bumbled along, happy as a clam, ignorant of about 75% of what he was layering around me. He learned to simply, at key moments, lay it out openly (either with a helpful NPC, a diary/tome with clear, key information, or just an out of character "Okay guys, you missed this" speech). It really helped.

Think of it like a soap opera: If you love a certain soap, you know it. You know who did what to who, when, and why. You remember every slight made by this person or that, and their history. But remember how you felt the first week you watched it, when you had no history with it.

Who's that? Why doesn't he just ask her? Why does she hate him? I thought she was his sister? but she wants to send him to jail? Huh?

Your players, no matter how much you hope they are paying attention to the details of your world, are just watching this soap opera for the first time or two. While you were busy planning the next steps in the quest, and spending hours working on the backstory of the murder victim, they were playing Grand Theft Auto, or studying for mid-terms. You have hundreds of hours more time involved than they do.

So, sometimes, just stop, and explain some things to them. Sure, it breaks the wall, but you can patch that, and have fun again in minutes.

[Bloodgruve]

*Gather Information for clues is the best way. Good place for some role play or just roll play.
*Sharn Watchman hears something and reports it to the PC's
*Random goblin wants to sell them some information*
*A Dream comes in from a new powerful benefactor that will progress your campaign.
*A clue from an interested party that knows your PC's are investigating.
*Maybe they randomly run into another incident and are witnesses themselves.

I DM an Eberron campaign also. Sharn is full of witnesses, thieves and information brokers. Find some shady tavern near by and start asking questions and flashing some coin. Think of a movie that has similar aspects and ask your PC's "How'd this guy figure it out, what did he do?"

Like Graeylin said, PC's only see what you show them. All the other infrastructure of your campaign is hidden from them. They care about being heroes, prolly not historians.

GL
Blood~

[Karoht]

"There is no meaningful way to glue phase 1 (investigation) and phase 2 (finding the place) because I don't really know how a person is supposed to find somebody in a big city. Not even in real life."
Watch some crime TV shows? CSI? Law and Order? Read a book?
In real life, if you want to find someone, you go looking. You ask around if someone has seen anything suspicious, you provide a description of a suspect or whatever outstanding details the suspect might have. A ring on the left hand with a specific crest, a strange tattoo, a patron who kept to the back corner of the bar and gave everyone the creeps, a small elven child walking around and talking to what appeared to be an imaginary friend.

If you want to use magic, there are options as well.

You mentioned leads they could still pursue. Have them follow up on those leads. Especially since (according to you) they know these leads are outstanding. Reminding them that they are outstanding isn't really a breach. If they can narrow it down to a quarter of the city, that alone is important.

[DrDeth]

Street urchins.

[Maginomicon]

You can use this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310882) (especially the passive wisdom, intelligence, and charisma) to your advantage.

[Bloodgruve]

I listened to a podcast with Sly Flourish about his book The Lazy DM (http://slyflourish.com/lazydm/). Haven't read it yet but what stuck with me from the interview was a technique that you can think of three quick paths that the PC's could potentially take forward. Get an idea in your head about how it gets them to your goal. He'll spend 5 mins before the session and then lets the session take on it's own direction. Do some research on potential encounters so when combat is pertinent you have something to throw at um. If you go in without a detailed session it can be as fun for you as it is for the players ;) Some of my more memorable games were done this way.

IMHO Skills should be as important as BAB, make them use um.

GL
Blood~

[weckar]

Have another attack happen. It'll generate a new victim, maybe a witness,a new batch of clues.

[KillianHawkeye]

In a situation like this, I always figure out what the bad guy is going to do if there is no intervention from the players. Will he attack again? Or was this particular victim his primary goal? If so, why? There must be some clue behind that. Or else it will probably kill again. When? How often does he kill? Does he prefer going to the same areas to kill or strike at random throughout the city? When he's not killing, what does he do and where does he stay? Is there a reason he stays in a particular location? Is there something about that location that could have been left as a clue at the crime scene? What would happen if the players just quit and let the villain get their way?



I'll give you an example of a short adventure I ran a couple of years ago using this method and then letting the PCs make their own way through the framework I had established:

The scenario was that a demon-worshipping cult was abducting people in a city and using them in a sacrifice to bring forth their dark master to wreak havoc. At the same time, the leader of the cult was hired by a group of former villains to assassinate the ruler of the city who the PCs worked for. There were also some demons that had already been called that were helping the cultists and preparing for an assault on the city. So, there were basically several things happening or recently happened that the PCs could decide to investigate: some missing girls (mostly from the poorer areas of town), as well as an equal number of missing clerics (one of each alignment); and increased criminal activity caused by the people doing the abductions.

What ended up happening was that the PCs didn't have much idea how to find the missing people, so they investigated the increases of other crime instead. I forget the exact details of what the other crimes were, stealing food to feed the cultists and/or demons, I think. Anyway, there were some warehouses that had been broken in to so that's were the party went. They were able to track the burglars to another building where a secret entrance led them into an underground storehouse filled with whatever supplies had been stolen, and they fought some of the thieves and interrogated one to find out that the abducted people are handed over in the graveyard at midnight (a good cliche is hard to pass up), so they went to intercept the next meeting.

At the graveyard, I had a couple of criminals and cultists arrive with a kidnapped girl, so the players started sneaking into place for an ambush. The twist was that the cultists were giving the abductees to the demons which teleported in to get them. I used some ape-like demon from the Fiendish Codex specifically for its ability to grab somebody and teleport them against their will, and my plan was to try to split the party by kidnapping a PC when they inevitably attacked to stop the demons. Then they pulled a twist on ME and WILLINGLY went to the demons' lair because it meant they might be able to rescue some people.

The demons' lair was in a cave complex a couple days' ride away from town, and it contained an unstable rift to the Abyss that allowed the cultists to call forth demons using a ritual sacrifice, and they'd been calling in more and more of them in preparation for the big show. So the caves were basically one big combat scenario because the PCs didn't just willingly allow themselves to be sacrificed. They ended up clearing the place out and found out some interesting info including the plan to assassinate the king, even saved a few people, but they had no idea where they were and no way to get back. Luckily, and with a small nudge of divine intervention that I'm pretty sure none of my players realized was a god in disguise, the party was pointed in the right direction and made it back to town just in time for the big event: the city was now under attack by demons!

The party fought off the big showing of demons in the town center but, realizing it was all just a distraction, rushed to the palace to stop the assassination (making just in the nick of time, as intended), fought off the assassin and her pet frenzied berserker (and some cultists and/or demons, I forget), and saved the day! Except for how they had never found the house in the wealthy part of town where the cultists were operating out of because they never investigated the kidnapped clerics, so now there was a big custom-made badass demon with a whip and a magic bag lurking through the streets in search of children to eat (it was a Christmas-themed game, don't ask), which they did eventually find and kill and rescue the children and get their rewards and live happily ever after.

------------------------------------------

The point is that the majority of those middle parts were totally improvised based on what the players did with my web of starting hooks. Subterranean storehouse? Made up on the spot just to give them another hook, and inject an exciting combat counter into a session otherwise devoted to roleplaying and investigation. Meetings in the graveyard at midnight? I had thought of them using the graveyard but didn't really figure out the details beforehand. Map of the demon caves? Totally improvised since I had no idea the party would actually go there. Putting the caves far enough away that they'd get back to town just in time for the big climax? Stroke of genius. The villains having a solid plan involving three things happening at once? Designed to give the player's choices with consequences, but also to give them an enemy who was sneaky and smart since their usual opponents were more overt threats in the past.

And it was all possible because I had embraced the notion of giving an adventure multiple paths and multiple hooks and then letting the players write the story for me. All I did was figure out in general terms who and where the villains were and what and when they'd be doing things.

For full disclosure, this was the first adventure that I wrote from scratch and it took place across (I think) three gaming sessions, so I was able to see which direction they went and then develop more things for that such as the kidnapping ape-demons and the divine intervention bit. But it still proved to me without a doubt that designing a non-linear adventure was much better for adapting to the actions of the PCs than having a tight script and then being left to flounder when the players go off the rails. I was VERY satisfied with the way this adventure went, but it could easily have gone totally differently and still ended up in the same place, more or less.

[Maginomicon]

You could also allow them to use action points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm).

Let them emulate the Investigate feat (Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 55). It has no prerequisites, making it perfect for action points.

If you're not too hot on making action points a per-character-level resource, PM me and I can describe how I made them a per-session resource.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Action Points are already in the Eberron Campaign Setting. However, I don't think it includes the UA ability to emulate a feat.

In this kind of situation, I would ask the characters the "what do you do now" question. If you have dropped a few hints, and they still have no idea what to do between the bunch of them, do as was suggested before and continue the killings. The longer it goes on, the more clues that will be left and the closer they come to reaching a conclusion. Don't be afraid to allow the players to fail.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you have dropped a few hints, and they still have no idea what to do between the bunch of them, do as was suggested before and continue the killings. The longer it goes on, the more clues that will be left and the closer they come to reaching a conclusion.

As a bonus, the more bad stuff that happens before the villain is defeated, the more satisfaction the players will feel for finally catching him.