How to build a necromancer?

[Fat&Furious]

5Hello. I am going to start new game, where we are going to have 20 lvl characters. I would like to play as necromancer, create undead creatures, not only to have an OP character, but just for fun from being such an evil man :smallamused:

I need help in creating my character, so i asked here.

Thank you so much for paying attention to my newbie's post :)

[OldTrees1]

Why cleric? They are not the best necromancers.

What kind of necromancy do you want?


For a general necromancer (likes both undead and fear) I would suggest the following:
Silverbrow Human Necromancer 1 / Dread Necromancer 8 / Red Wizard 5 / Dread Witch 5 / Dread Necromancer +1

Silverbrow human gives you the Dragonblood subtype for the Versatile Spellcaster feat. (used to catch back up despite being a spontaneous caster and losing a spellcasting level)
Red Wizard boosts your caster level to 40 (to increase your undead control pools to reasonable levels). 1 level of specialized wizard (Necromancer 1) is required to enter Red Wizard but it will be advancing your Dread Necromancer spellcasting
Dread Witch allows you to scare things that are immune to fear.

You can even replace 1 level of Dread Witch and 1 level of Dread Necromancer with 2 levels of Pale Master to get Animate Dead 1/day without expending gems.

You will want to become Spellstiched and get the Animate Dread Warrior spell-like ability.

[Ansem]

**** Cleric, **** Wizard, Sorcerer..... meh, screw that.

Take the bloody Dread Necromancer, for what you describe it's impossible to take on anything else!

[dchevallier]

DN is your best bet, and there are tons of good feats from Libris Mortis.

[Fat&Furious]

Why cleric? They are not the best necromancers.

What kind of necromancy do you want?


For a general necromancer (likes both undead and fear) I would suggest the following:
Silverbrow Human Necromancer 1 / Dread Necromancer 8 / Red Wizard 5 / Dread Witch 5 / Dread Necromancer +1

Silverbrow human gives you the Dragonblood subtype for the Versatile Spellcaster feat. (used to catch back up despite being a spontaneous caster and losing a spellcasting level)
Red Wizard boosts your caster level to 40 (to increase your undead control pools to reasonable levels). 1 level of specialized wizard (Necromancer 1) is required to enter Red Wizard but it will be advancing your Dread Necromancer spellcasting
Dread Witch allows you to scare things that are immune to fear.

Sorry for not enough informations. In what book can i read about those classes? I couldn't see any of them in Book of Vile Darkness :smallfrown:

EDIT: If i have any more questions after reading proper book, i will ask more precised questions.

@dchevallier, thanks for book name, i didnt see that at first.

[OldTrees1]

Sorry for not enough informations. In what book can i read about those classes? I couldn't see any of them in Book of Vile Darkness :smallfrown:

EDIT: If i have any more questions after reading proper book, i will ask more precised questions.

Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic)
Necromancer (Player's Handbook, Specialist Wizard)
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror)
Red Wizard (Dungeon Master's Guide)
Dread Witch (Heroes of Horror)
Pale Master (Libris Mortis)
Versatile Spellcaster feat (Races of the Dragon)



More info:

Animate Dead is a nice control pool (especially if boosted separately by both Dread Necromancer 8 and Caster Level 40) however your favorite control pool is probably the Command Undead spell.

The Command Undead spell lets you control 1 mindless undead (no limit on HD) per caster level (40) per 2nd level spell slot you use.

Using the build I described above and assuming a meager Cha of 20 (really ought to be higher) you have 8 1st level slots (converted 2 at a time into 2nd level spells via Versatile Spellcaster), 7 2nd level slots and a caster level of 40.
(8/2 + 7) casts per day with 40 undead per cast per day = 440 undead at full HD.

This can be further enhanced by buying Lesser Chain Metamagic Rods. Each Lesser Chain Metamagic Rod will increase your Command Undead pool by 60 undead per day. (By chaining 3 of your Command Undead spells per day). So my example would benefit from 3 such rods for a total of 620 undead at full HD.

[Segev]

I have, personally, always been fond of the wizard necromancer, myself. At level 20, the worst of the weaknesses of the wizard vs. the cleric in terms of minionmancy are dealt with long ago - namely, that wizards are two levels behind the cleric in being able to create their own minions.

For the most depraved of cleric OR wizard necromancers, I cannot emphasize enough how vile (no pun intended based on the damage type these can deal) the Mother Cyst feat and the accompanying Necrotic spell line are. Find them in Libris Mortis.

Pay particular attention to how the 5th level "detonate your victim" spell does fireball damage to those nearby and infects more victims. Because it's a 5th level spell, its save DC is higher than the normal gateway Necrotic Cyst spell. And you can use Necrotic Tumor-controlled low-level living slaves as your walking bombs. Send them up to plead with do-gooders or to distract more pragmatic enemies, then blow them up to infect those foes. The penalty to saves against necromancy and the extra damage taken from undead natural weapons is only the tip of the iceberg, since now many of your foes are vulnerable to other Necrotic spells. I point once more to Necrotic Tumor: If they make the save, they are subject to an effect similar to Suggestion's effect on a failed save; if they fail it, they're permanently enslaved, unable to resist your orders.

Likewise, you will want a judicious sampling of the Corpsecrafter feat and its descendents from the same book. I am personally fond of Destruction Retribution, as it does extra damage to your foes when they off your minions, and heals your other minions. Note that Skulking Cysts that erupt from victims who die of various Necrotic spells you cast are undead created by you through necromancy spells, so will benefit from these effects.

All of this is doable as a wizard or a cleric (or even a sorcerer or dread necromancer).

As a wizard, picking up Craft Wondrous Item will let you start to Spellstitch your undead. (Google for it; the rules are available in various places.) You also will have access to such important spells as Magic Jar. You should not be out adventuring in your own body, typically. You should cast Magic Jar in the morning and hand the vessel to a minion who can easily and quickly get back to you. A pair of Ring Gates, one of which the minion holds while you keep the other with your normal body, is a good option. If you're really paranoid, first cast Astral Projection, re-manifest on this plane, then cast Magic Jar. Your Astral form can be kept safely hidden in some way, within range of the Jar, so that if anything happens you wake up in your Astral form, yet if anybody does anything TO your astral form, you still wake up back in your sanctum in your true body.

Possess one of your other minions. Which one depends on what you think is most useful. Be willing to hop around from body to body as needed. Taking over enemies' bodies is a viable tactic, to an extent, but shouldn't be your only one.

The Undead Leadership feat is thematic, but not essential unless you find yourself hitting the HD cap of undead you can control by various means too hard. You should be focusing on the sentient and powerful undead types more than the hordes of weak minions, as a general rule, at this level, but having the weak minions as fodder doesn't hurt if you can control them easily. Remember that the spells Command Undead and Control Undead do not have HD caps. Command is generally preferable for its long duration, but Control is good if you need to turn something powerful to your will for a short period. You probably want to see that it doesn't survive, though, unless you can control it by other means when the duration lapses.

If you're a PF Necromancer or a Cleric, using your Rebuke/Command undead power on a wight or wraith or greater shadow or three is a very good idea: these creatures create spawn which are enslaved to them, so you can set up chains of command with near limitless numbers. Unfortunately, Corpsecrafter won't apply to the spawn, but it's still very useful.

In all, play like a wizard and treat the living as unharvested raw materials for your future puppets.

[Jeff the Green]

Why cleric? They are not the best necromancers.

What kind of necromancy do you want?


For a general necromancer (likes both undead and fear) I would suggest the following:
Silverbrow Human Necromancer 1 / Dread Necromancer 8 / Red Wizard 5 / Dread Witch 5 / Dread Necromancer +1

Silverbrow human gives you the Dragonblood subtype for the Versatile Spellcaster feat. (used to catch back up despite being a spontaneous caster and losing a spellcasting level)
Red Wizard boosts your caster level to 40 (to increase your undead control pools to reasonable levels). 1 level of specialized wizard (Necromancer 1) is required to enter Red Wizard but it will be advancing your Dread Necromancer spellcasting
Dread Witch allows you to scare things that are immune to fear.

You can even replace 1 level of Dread Witch and 1 level of Dread Necromancer with 2 levels of Pale Master to get Animate Dead 1/day without expending gems.

You will want to become Spellstiched and get the Animate Dread Warrior spell-like ability.

Dread Necromancer is basically useless unless you go all 20 levels. Undead mastery works off of class levels, not CL, so for the above build you're better off as a wizard.

[OldTrees1]

Dread Necromancer is basically useless unless you go all 20 levels. Undead mastery works off of class levels, not CL, so for the above build you're better off as a wizard.

I whole heartedly disagree.

Undead Mastery is nice but it is not the point of using the Dread Necromancer class. Yes it does increase the number of undead in the Animate Dead pool (Class Level x Cha + 4 x Caster Level) but that is the weakest of the 4 pools.

The point is the SAD Cha (Spellcasting, Leadership, Social Skills, Rebuke Undead, Fear), the additional Rebuke Undead pool (you know, for non skeleton undead), the free healing for your minions and the fear synergy.

[Fat&Furious]

Thanks guys for all those extremely long posts :smallsmile:

Now i'm going to find out more about my prefered classes in books you wrote about.

Thanks a lot again,

[gorfnab]

These may help:
K's Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0)
Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214212)

[OldTrees1]

Thanks guys for all those extremely long posts :smallsmile:

Now i'm going to find out more about my prefered classes in books you wrote about.

Thanks a lot again,

There is one more class to look at:
The Death Master class from Dragon Compendium.

It is a base class like Dread Necromancer. However it has a better spell list, earlier Animate Dead access (not relevant in your case) and access to Desecrate without taking the Arcane Disciple feat. Personally I still prefer the Dread Necromancer class (due to the Cha synergy) but it is another option to think about.

[Lord Haart]

Just to play an advocate's devil here — a Cleric 20 without prestige class levels is hardly "a bad idea". It is, after all, one of the Tier 1 (aka "If you can't pick a new way to break the campaign wide open each morning, you do a good job of not trying hard enough) spellcasters, and while straight cleric levels do give you almost nothing (bardic knowledge, if you're that kind of cleric, and Turn Undead scaling — which doesn't usually mean much, 'cause most clerics just use it to power divine metamagic, but for a dedicated necromancer it is important) over spellcasting-advancing PrCs, getting nothing but spellcasting still means getting the whole jackpot and if you do care about Turn levels, it's hardly a bad choice (though there sure are PrCs that are better than straight cleric levels; it's just that there's really not much need to squeese it tight, a cleric is not a truenamer). And i'm still convinced that cleric chassis is the best chassis for a dedicated necromancer in 3.5, even if Dread Necro sure got lots of thematical style points.

[Jeff the Green]

I whole heartedly disagree.

Undead Mastery is nice but it is not the point of using the Dread Necromancer class. Yes it does increase the number of undead in the Animate Dead pool (Class Level x Cha + 4 x Caster Level) but that is the weakest of the 4 pools.

The point is the SAD Cha (Spellcasting, Leadership, Social Skills, Rebuke Undead, Fear), the additional Rebuke Undead pool (you know, for non skeleton undead), the free healing for your minions and the fear synergy.

Rebuking is also dependent on your DN level. Dread Necromancers can multiclass (for example, fear specialists), but they lose any advantage they have in minionmancy.

[Theomniadept]

Dread Necromancers get the shenanigan of Rainbow Servant though. Stick DN through 8 levels and go into Rainbow Servant and you hit a super-saiyan power spike at 18.

Small note: Tomb-Tainted Soul + Charnel Touch from Dread Necromancer = absolutely free full-healing after combat for both the DN and any created undead. Also, rebuke undead = DMM Persistent whatever you want.

[Ansem]

Why the hell would you waste a level on on Necromancer specialist Wizard, nothing from it scales with you, so you get 1 extra HD to control undead, just buy a cloak of Charisma and you already get atleast 8 more HD per Charisma increase, despite the class features usually have the last best dropout at lvl 8, it's still better than most other base classes to continue and increase in DR, extra touch attacks isn't too bad.


Small note: Tomb-Tainted Soul + Charnel Touch from Dread Necromancer = absolutely free full-healing after combat for both the DN and any created undead. Also, rebuke undead = DMM Persistent whatever you want.
*cough* Necropolitan.

[OldTrees1]

Rebuking is also dependent on your DN level. Dread Necromancers can multiclass (for example, fear specialists), but they lose any advantage they have in minionmancy.

Rebuking is left behind at class level + item bonus (8+item bonus is usually good enough). However even having that pool is an advantage over Sorcerer and Wizard. Being Cha focused is an advantage over Cleric and Wizard. Being Cha focused does not disappear with prestige classing.


Why the hell would you waste a level on on Necromancer specialist Wizard

The Chain Spell Command Undead pool quadruples whenever caster level is doubled.
Caster Level 40 is gained from Circle Magic.
Red Wizard is the easiest way to get Circle Magic.
Red Wizard requires the Tattoo focus feat.
The Tattoo focus feat requires your first level be a specialist Wizard.

[Ansem]

Rebuking is left behind at class level + item bonus (8+item bonus is usually good enough). However even having that pool is an advantage over Sorcerer and Wizard. Being Cha focused is an advantage over Cleric and Wizard. Being Cha focused does not disappear with prestige classing.



The Chain Spell Command Undead pool quadruples whenever caster level is doubled.
Caster Level 40 is gained from Circle Magic.
Red Wizard is the easiest way to get Circle Magic.
Red Wizard requires the Tattoo focus feat.
The Tattoo focus feat requires your first level be a specialist Wizard.

So not worth it......

[OldTrees1]

So not worth it......

:smallconfused:
Trading 1 level to quadruple your largest control pool is not worth it? Even when it comes with the side effects of +20 vs SR, doubling spell durations, and everything else that comes with doubling your caster level from 20 to 40? You don't even lose 9ths.