Level 20 Lich for Parallel Campaign

[Valtu]

EDIT: Making corrections based on responses and posting brief description of what I have so far:

So far, by level 20 my character is Sorc 3, Wiz 3, Ultimate Magus 10, Lich 4.

I've taken Practiced Spellcaster twice (once for each casting class), so combined with the bonuses from Ultimate Magus, that gives me the spells known/per day of a 12th level Sorcerer, 11th level Wizard, but a caster level of 20 and 19, respectively.

The spells known/per day is lower than I would like, but I feel like that gives me a ton of versatility. I'll put my really essential (and especially combat-oriented) spells on the Sorcerer side, with the more miscellaneous utility spells on the Wizard side. I'll either take the Rapid Metamagic feat, or the ACF from UA that grants that ability, especially since my INT modifier is a 4.

What do you guys think? (keeping in mind the 3 class limit our DM is pretty firm about). There's also the possibility of saying screw it and going straight-up Sorcerer with a 10 or 2 5 level PrCs.


Most of the original post:

Exactly what the title says. After our last session, we came up with the idea to create really out-there characters and run an evil campaign at around levels 18-20 or so. The catch (and coolest part, IMO) is that the things we do as these new characters will affect our current ones. We'll be on the same continent, just far from each other, and obviously working toward opposing goals.

These evil characters may even develop into a boss encounter where our DM plays one of them, but since our current characters are only level 11 right now, that will be quite some time before that ever happens.

Anyway, I want my evil guy to be a powerful caster who has become a lich, at the very least. Ideally I'd like to make a demilich, probably just a skull, and if it were possible for that skull to magically pilot some sort of construct body (basically a D&D mech) that would be amazing.

So. . . .is any of this achievable by level 20? I'd like to try limit the total number of classes taken if possible. Our DM (and since my last post where I mentioned this rule, I've confirmed it) has a rule of no more than 3 classes. Either 2 base classes and a prestige, or 1 base class and 2 prestige classes.

He may be more flexible this time around, but I'd still like to not push it past 4, and then only if I can come up with a strong roleplay/fluff element to really back it up.

[BWR]

If you don't mind the LA here's the demilich (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/demilich.htm).
Cue someone talking about using a shadesteel golem.

[OldTrees1]

So. . . .is any of this achievable by level 20?


Each demilich must make its own soul gems, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level.

Signs point to no on the demilich part.

A lich is easier
Dread Necromancer 20
Death Master 20
Cleric 10 / Walker in the Wastes 10
Lich LA +4

PS Ultimate Magus is Arcane/Arcane not Divine/Arcane

[Eldaran]

Demilich has LA of +12, and you need to be level 21 caster, so minimum of level 33.

[Valtu]

Signs point to no on the demilich part.

A lich is easier
Dread Necromancer 20
Death Master 20
Cleric 10 / Walker in the Wastes 10
Lich LA +4

PS Ultimate Magus is Arcane/Arcane not Divine/Arcane

Ah, ok didn't realize the level 21 requirement for a demilich. Well I can make that a goal, then. Yeah I was getting confused on the prepared arcane and prepared divine classes for ultimate magus. There's a class that is for divine/arcane, mystic theurge, i think, but I'm really not stuck on the divine part, just seemed the most useful for necromancy.

[OldTrees1]

Ah, ok didn't realize the level 21 requirement for a demilich. Well I can make that a goal, then. Yeah I was getting confused on the prepared arcane and prepared divine classes for ultimate magus. There's a class that is for divine/arcane, mystic theurge, i think, but I'm really not stuck on the divine part, just seemed the most useful for necromancy.

Questions:
1) You seem to want 2 spellcasting classes. Why?
2) "just seemed the most useful for necromancy" Lichs do not need to be necromancy focused. Did you want a necromancy focus? If so how much of as focus?
3) What optimization level is your table? Can you get away with a Tier 3 character or do you need the versatility and power of Tier 1?

[Valtu]

Questions:
1) You seem to want 2 spellcasting classes. Why?
2) "just seemed the most useful for necromancy" Lichs do not need to be necromancy focused. Did you want a necromancy focus? If so how much of as focus?
3) What optimization level is your table? Can you get away with a Tier 3 character or do you need the versatility and power of Tier 1?

1 & 2) You know, that's an excellent point. I guess I just thought necromancy and lichdom went hand in hand, and I suppose they certainly can, but you're right, it doesn't seem to be a requirement at all. It might not be a bad idea to have some undead minions protecting a phylactery or something, but otherwise, yeah, it seems unnecessary.

3) Hard to tell, as I'm fairly new myself (1st campaign, this will be my 3rd character, counting the 1st that died, and the 2nd who is still going), but I'd say fairly low. Our DM does have that rule about multiclassing, but regardless, there's only one player who I'd say really optimizes. (Other than myself, but I'm just getting started. I do feel like I've picked it up pretty quickly, but I wouldn't say that counts yet :P)

So far I've played a Sorcerer who prestiged into Fatespinner (a homebrewed combination of the 3.0 and 3.5 versions), and my current is a Monk 1, Sorcerer 6, Enlightened Fist 4.

Obviously, I like Sorcerers quite a bit, especially with the Metamagic Specialist ACF from the PHB II, but I understand the advantages of being an actual wizard (and I'm incredibly envious of those damn metamagic bonus feats of theirs! lol)

[OldTrees1]

Ok it looks fairly standard then.
You could possibly go
Lich Sorcerer 16
Death Master 20 (gets Lich for free, but casts as Wizard from a smaller list)
Dread Necromancer 20 (gets Lich for free, casts as Sorcerer but is limited to mostly necromancy spells)

[Valtu]

Ok it looks fairly standard then.
You could possibly go
Lich Sorcerer 16
Death Master 20 (gets Lich for free, but casts as Wizard from a smaller list)
Dread Necromancer 20 (gets Lich for free, casts as Sorcerer but is limited to mostly necromancy spells)

Ok, so if you don't become a Lich through a class feature, then you get a Level Adjustment of 4? Kind of a bummer losing 4 levels of spellcasting, but the flexibility is nice.

I still may consider the Ultimate Magus (or maybe Archmage, I forget what that one does) route. I've never played a prepared spellcaster before, and while I'm sure I'll always prefer the play style of Sorcerers, it'd be nice to have my really essential spells be inherently known, and the less frequent, but super useful utility spells could be prepared and swapped out daily.

[AkbarTheGreat]

Dread Necro is great for controlling a LOT of undead. Just, stupid high amounts. It also has access to some pretty good spells, not divine good, but good enough. Nothing more fun than making a dragon your bitch thanks to chill touch and their terrible touch AC, or killing a huge group of mooks with fell animate and them raising under your control next turn, mid battle.

[OldTrees1]

Dread Necro is great for controlling a LOT of undead. Just, stupid high amounts. It also has access to some pretty good spells, not divine good, but good enough. Nothing more fun than making a dragon your bitch thanks to chill touch and their terrible touch AC, or killing a huge group of mooks with fell animate and them raising under your control next turn, mid battle.

This is true, but not because they get Undead Mastery (Charisma * Class Level additional HD of control under Animate Dead). Undead Mastery is a drop in the bucket compared to their Chain Spell (Feat) Command Undead(Spell) or Undead Leadership(Feat) pools.

[AugustNights]

Non-epic Demilich is an issue I've been toying around with for a while.
I wanted to make one by Level 12 with L.12 WBL, but even with L.20 WBL it there are some difficulties in making a pre-epic Demilich.

It's largely dependent on making Caster Level increasing items, and utilizing them to be an effective L.21 caster by L.8.

The first hurdle in becoming a Demilich pre-epic is this issue:

Liches have phylacteries that allow them to reappear 1d10 days after their apparent death, as do demiliches. Demiliches also have eight soul gems, each of which acts like a phylactery in its own right. If all the soul gems, as well as the demilich’s phylactery, are not destroyed after a demilich is downed, the demilich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death. The soul gems also allow the demilich to use its most devastating ability, trap the soul (see above). Each demilich must make its own soul gems, which requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat. The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level. Each soul gem costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation. Soul gems appear as egg-shaped gems of wondrous quality. They are always incorporated directly into the concentrated form of the demilich.


Unless you can get your DM to handwave that as CL 21, you're going to need to sink 21 levels in Sorcerer, Wizard, or Cleric. No PrCs, no level boosting items, no other types of spell-casters.

Next up are the items. With only 760,000 GP you need to create 9 wondrous objects to the tune of 1,080,000 GP.
Stacking up some item creation shenanigans should allow you to get around that high cost.
Pick your poison (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0).

Now for the hard part.
Caster L.21.
From Caster Level 8, or 4 if you are a Kaorti.
That requires an increase of 13 levels, and not a whole lot of free wbl to do so.

Orange Ioun stones probably don't stack, normally, a bonus only doesn't stack when there is a check involved, and Item Creation in of itself doesn't involve a check, however it does set the check for a created item's caster level when said item is dispelled or the like.

With enough ranks in UMD you can utilize a Talisman of the Twelve Moons...

That comes to a total of +2 CL.
I just learned that a ring of arcane might won't work, so I'm back to the drawing board.

Anyone know of any other items that increase caster level for long durations?

[Valtu]

Non-epic Demilich is an issue I've been toying around with for a while.
I wanted to make one by Level 12 with L.12 WBL, but even with L.20 WBL it there are some difficulties in making a pre-epic Demilich.

It's largely dependent on making Caster Level increasing items, and utilizing them to be an effective L.21 caster by L.8.

The first hurdle in becoming a Demilich pre-epic is this issue:


Unless you can get your DM to handwave that as CL 21, you're going to need to sink 21 levels in Sorcerer, Wizard, or Cleric. No PrCs, no level boosting items, no other types of spell-casters.

Next up are the items. With only 760,000 GP you need to create 9 wondrous objects to the tune of 1,080,000 GP.
Stacking up some item creation shenanigans should allow you to get around that high cost.
Pick your poison (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1000.0).

Now for the hard part.
Caster L.21.
From Caster Level 8, or 4 if you are a Kaorti.
That requires an increase of 13 levels, and not a whole lot of free wbl to do so.

Orange Ioun stones probably don't stack, normally, a bonus only doesn't stack when there is a check involved, and Item Creation in of itself doesn't involve a check, however it does set the check for a created item's caster level when said item is dispelled or the like.

With enough ranks in UMD you can utilize a Talisman of the Twelve Moons...

That comes to a total of +2 CL.
I just learned that a ring of arcane might won't work, so I'm back to the drawing board.

Anyone know of any other items that increase caster level for long durations?

Wow, I had not considered that it wasn't total character level 21. Surely RAI would have been something more like that, or perhaps caster level, like you said.

Well I don't think I'll be able to swing all that haha, but I think the general idea of being a powerful spellcasting lich is pretty cool. Becoming a demilich can be this character's goal for the future.

Oh, that reminds me of something. I was reading, I think in the Libris Mortis, that if a lich's phylactery is destroyed, that the lich cannot create another one! I didn't see any qualifying statement or conditional clause anywhere. Just can't be done. Is that accurate? Maybe I missed something, or another book covers that in more detail.

[OldTrees1]

Wow, I had not considered that it wasn't total character level 21. Surely RAI would have been something more like that, or perhaps caster level, like you said.

RAW and RAI it is total class level. Only Epic spellcasters can craft the Soul Gems.

What he was saying is IF your DM changed it from RAW/RAI (class levels) to houserule (caster level) then there is a path.


Liches can create new phylacteries. However the process involves a True Resurrection spell and regaining lichdom.

[Jack_Simth]

Ah, ok didn't realize the level 21 requirement for a demilich. Well I can make that a goal, then. Yeah I was getting confused on the prepared arcane and prepared divine classes for ultimate magus. There's a class that is for divine/arcane, mystic theurge, i think, but I'm really not stuck on the divine part, just seemed the most useful for necromancy.

Actually, there is a way around that. You just need a Necropolitan (or lich) Bard cohort with Requiem (Libris Mortis) to use Inspire Greatness on you while you're working for... 240*8 days straight.

Edit: Oh yes, and you'll need to start an Agony or Ambrosia farm, to mitigate the XP costs (which are very, very high at 4,800 xp per soul gem).

[OldTrees1]

Actually, there is a way around that. You just need a Necropolitan (or lich) Bard cohort with Requiem (Libris Mortis) to use Inspire Greatness on you while you're working for... 240*8 days straight.

Edit: Oh yes, and you'll need to start an Agony or Ambrosia farm, to mitigate the XP costs (which are very, very high at 4,800 xp per soul gem).

Inspire Greatness increases HD not class level. The soul gems require class level 21.

[Jack_Simth]

Inspire Greatness increases HD not class level. The soul gems require class level 21.It doesn't exactly say class level. It says "The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level"

If that's referring to class level, then you can't have a Wizard-10/Loremaster-11 demilich.

If it's referring to character level, then increasing your hit dice by essentially any means qualifies.

[Valtu]

It doesn't exactly say class level. It says "The lich must be a sorcerer, wizard, or cleric of at least 21st level"

If that's referring to class level, then you can't have a Wizard-10/Loremaster-11 demilich.

If it's referring to character level, then increasing your hit dice by essentially any means qualifies.

Ah, ok, that is a good point. I bet it probably does just mean 21st character level, then. I'm really not all that concerned with being a demilich by level 20, I just thought that would be even cooler than being a regular lich. So either way, I can either do it later, or just not at all.


Liches can create new phylacteries. However the process involves a True Resurrection spell and regaining lichdom.

Why a True Resurrection spell? I don't mean if a Lich and its phylactery are both destroyed. I just mean what if someone destroys my phylactery, but I kill them, and now I'm totally fine, but my phylactery is gone. Is there a limit on making another?

[TuggyNE]

Why a True Resurrection spell? I don't mean if a Lich and its phylactery are both destroyed. I just mean what if someone destroys my phylactery, but I kill them, and now I'm totally fine, but my phylactery is gone. Is there a limit on making another?

There is no explicit limit. Unfortunately, neither is there any explicit provision, and since you make a phylactery when and only when you become a lich, such a provision would be needed.

[Valtu]

There is no explicit limit. Unfortunately, neither is there any explicit provision, and since you make a phylactery when and only when you become a lich, such a provision would be needed.

Oh, so what you're saying is the phylactery being created and your becoming a lich are simultaneous and sort of co-dependent. So you'd have to stop being a lich, then turn yourself back into one?

Surely there's a less convoluted way, although I guess this limitation makes them more balanced, having a vulnerability like that. Still, you'd think given enough time, a lich whose phylactery was destroyed would work on creating another, especially if he came close to being destroyed himself.

[Jack_Simth]

Ah, ok, that is a good point. I bet it probably does just mean 21st character level, then. I'm really not all that concerned with being a demilich by level 20, I just thought that would be even cooler than being a regular lich. So either way, I can either do it later, or just not at all.Eh, doing it as soon as possible makes a decent goal for a BBEG. By 20th, you'd need to gather:
43,200 worth of XP mitigation (for the XP component for the Phylactory + 8 soul gems) Agony is pretty thematic at 3 XP per 100 gp value; you'll of course need to set up some form of harvesting operation).
1,080,000 gp (for the 'magical supplies' to make the phylactory + 8 soul gems).
A bard with Requiem that can do Inspire Greatness full-time (Necropolitan, another lich, a Warforged, et cetera) under your control.
Craft Wondrous Item (required feat).

Very expensive, lots of things to gather, gives you a solid in-character reason to amass huge amounts of wealth that you don't do anything with, and to torture people en mass for no obvious reason (harvesting agony for later use).

You end up with a BBEG that's self-consistent.

[OldTrees1]

Why a True Resurrection spell? I don't mean if a Lich and its phylactery are both destroyed. I just mean what if someone destroys my phylactery, but I kill them, and now I'm totally fine, but my phylactery is gone. Is there a limit on making another?

True Resurrection removes the Lich template (and creates a living body to house your soul). This allows you to build a new phylactery as you undergo the Lichdom ritual again (to reapply the template).

However you cannot make a new phylactery without losing and regaining lichdom.

[TuggyNE]

Oh, so what you're saying is the phylactery being created and your becoming a lich are simultaneous and sort of co-dependent. So you'd have to stop being a lich, then turn yourself back into one?

Yep.


Surely there's a less convoluted way, although I guess this limitation makes them more balanced, having a vulnerability like that. Still, you'd think given enough time, a lich whose phylactery was destroyed would work on creating another, especially if he came close to being destroyed himself.

It's possible the reason they don't do this is because they can't. For example, if their soul is in the phylactery 24/7 from the time of creation, they may well not have any way of retrieving it from wherever it goes to upon the destruction of its container.

In which case, I suppose a divine caster lich might research some custom Necromancy or perhaps Conjuration spell (dual-school?) that pulls the soul back to allow them to try again without having to delichify first. This is of course strictly homebrew.

[AugustNights]

On phone now, but I recall an epic spell that fragments a phylactery. Might be worth thinking about.

[Doxkid]

Demilich has LA of +12

Says who? I've never read that anywhere. As far as I know it is without LA; at best you could try to derive an LA by doubling its CR.

[TuggyNE]

On phone now, but I recall an epic spell that fragments a phylactery. Might be worth thinking about.

Aumvor's fragmented phylactery, if memory serves.

[OldTrees1]

Says who? I've never read that anywhere. As far as I know it is without LA; at best you could try to derive an LA by doubling its CR.

The 3.0 book Epic Level Handbook (Same as the template) pg 156.
The sample demilich has ECL 33 and 21HD. So it is +4 LA for Lich and +8 more LA for Demilich.

[Valtu]

I've never played anything from the Monster Manual or any non-standard race/class before, so I've never really dealt with level adjustment.

If I don't go through a prestige class to become a lich, then 4 of my 20 levels go toward being a lich, and I only get 16 total class levels, right?

Oh, and another question, once I become a lich, it says "all current and future hit dice become d12s," so do I re-roll all of my HP as d12s, but with no bonus from Con? (since I'll no longer have a Con modifier)

[OldTrees1]

I've never played anything from the Monster Manual or any non-standard race/class before, so I've never really dealt with level adjustment.

If I don't go through a prestige class to become a lich, then 4 of my 20 levels go toward being a lich, and I only get 16 total class levels, right?

If you do not go through either base class that grants lichdom or the prestige class that grants dry lichdom, then you get +4LA. +4LA means you are 4 levels behind everyone else. So 16 HD at ECL 20.

If you are going the +4 LA route, consider using this Savage Progression (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a). It gives you the LA is 1 level chunks so that you can benefit from some of the abilities earlier. It is identical to the template if you start with the completed progression.

[Gavinfoxx]

This is why it is a bad idea to play with templates or races with level adjustment, most of the time.

You should read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928

[Jack_Simth]

I've never played anything from the Monster Manual or any non-standard race/class before, so I've never really dealt with level adjustment.

If I don't go through a prestige class to become a lich, then 4 of my 20 levels go toward being a lich, and I only get 16 total class levels, right?

If you have the BBEG you are crafting START as a lich, then that is true, and is very straightforward RAW.

However, templates that you can acquire completely by in-game actions are funny. It isn't really defined what happens to your XP totals if you're a 12th level character that completes the lichification process. Are you now an ECL 16 character with 12th level XP, and thus a VERY long way from leveling up? Are you suddenly jumped to minimum 16th level xp? Do 4 of your class levels mysteriously vanish, to be replaced by the LA on the template? RAW is silent. So you'll need to ask your DM.

Oh, and another question, once I become a lich, it says "all current and future hit dice become d12s," so do I re-roll all of my HP as d12s, but with no bonus from Con? (since I'll no longer have a Con modifier)Again, RAW is pretty much silent. You might adjust by the average distance between d4's (or whatever you were using) and d12's. You might re-roll. It's up to your DM.

[Valtu]

If you do not go through either base class that grants lichdom or the prestige class that grants dry lichdom, then you get +4LA. +4LA means you are 4 levels behind everyone else. So 16 HD at ECL 20.

If you are going the +4 LA route, consider using this Savage Progression (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a). It gives you the LA is 1 level chunks so that you can benefit from some of the abilities earlier. It is identical to the template if you start with the completed progression.

Oh, that's cool. The Savage Progression is nice. I don't think I'll need to break it up, since we'll probably be starting these characters at 20.

I do agree that playing things with LA is probably a bad idea usually. This is a semi-serious character, though, and I don't think it'll really be an issue.

It's odd, because I am definitely going to put some serious work into it, but ultimately, this is a villain who, while it may take some time, and while their paths may never even cross directly at all, is a character whose goals are going to be opposed to our "real" heroic characters. It doesn't mean I'm going to play him any differently or show bias toward the other ones, but it doesn't have to be at the pinnacle of optimization or anything.

I think I may have mentioned this earlier, but our group seems fairly low-op, so I don't think it'll be an issue if things aren't perfect.

I'm going to get to work!

[Valtu]

Oh yes! Just saw this on the Savage Progression article:


If the phylactery is destroyed while the lich is still active in a body, her undead life force automatically joins that body. She takes no penalties of any kind for that joining, but without a phylactery, she cannot recover if her body is subsequently destroyed. She may create a new phylactery to replace a lost one if she has the time and resources to do so.