Animate with the spirit optimization

[eggynack]

So, I was poking around source books, specifically champions of valor, when I found an odd sanctified spell called animate with the spirit. I haven't really seen it discussed much, but it looks like lesser planar ally, except you use the physical statistics of some corpse you find. It seems pretty awesome, mostly because lesser planar ally is pretty awesome, though the duration is 10 minutes/level, which is mostly worse than what planar ally provides. Still, I'm mostly considering this as a druidic minionmancy option, and in that narrow field, I feel it's a thing with potential. I'm somewhat interested in what folks can come up with for this, because if nothing else, it seems ridiculously interesting. The corpse part especially is really broad.

[ksbsnowowl]

Chain spell is great for this.

Troll bodies are excellent, durable host bodies.

IIRC, it has a 6 HD limit on the outsider to inhabit the corpse?
Bralani and hound archons are probably you best bets.

[eggynack]

Chain spell is great for this.
Whoa, yeah. Hadn't even considered the fact that this is effectively a targeted planar ally with range. That is a somewhat ridiculous thing, though the investment is tricky, with the best way possibly being a metamagic rod of chaining for 108,000 GP. I'm not sure if the benefits on that outweigh the downsides, especially because you're presumably also picking up a bone ring. Very interesting though.


Troll bodies are excellent, durable host bodies.
True enough, especially as they get regeneration. It's probably possible to do better, especially because the HD limit looks like the only limit. I wonder how things on a dragonish scale would fare.

IIRC, it has a 6 HD limit on the outsider to inhabit the corpse?
Bralani and hound archons are probably you best bets.
Indeed so. It's somewhat hard to tell how "mental abilities" are defined here, which is likely the biggest issue with the spell. If you were to combine "mental abilities" and "innate abilities", would that comprise all of the abilities of a given creature? Tricky business. Still, this is definitely a good start for things. You've gotta love anything that can add to the flavor of a theoretical necromancy themed druid.

[Phelix-Mu]

Wasn't corpse the word used in stone to flesh? It's late, and the exact utility is escaping me, but you are right that corpse is a nice, broad term. Actually, I've often been irritated with how little mechanical thought was given to what creature types leave a corpse behind, especially since bits of lore dating back a couple editions now probably are at odds with some obscure bit of RAW. Stuff like "does a dead elemental leave a corpse?"

Presumably, to leave a corpse, the thing must be capable of dying? Thus, not undead or constructs. I'm not even sure that follows, though.

Humourously, there are actually a few rather silly ways of crossing the barrier between object and corpse, from what I am recalling. Awaken, as usual, comes to mind, but there are probably a couple other things that work. PaO, ofc, is likely going to introduce some weirdness. Like, could you PaO a rock into a corpse, animate it with the spirit it, and then let it turn back into a rock? I'm sure there is a nifty way to exploit that (items with creatures inside sounds useful).

[eggynack]

Wasn't corpse the word used in stone to flesh? It's late, and the exact utility is escaping me, but you are right that corpse is a nice, broad term. Actually, I've often been irritated with how little mechanical thought was given to what creature types leave a corpse behind, especially since bits of lore dating back a couple editions now probably are at odds with some obscure bit of RAW. Stuff like "does a dead elemental leave a corpse?"

Presumably, to leave a corpse, the thing must be capable of dying? Thus, not undead or constructs. I'm not even sure that follows, though.

Humourously, there are actually a few rather silly ways of crossing the barrier between object and corpse, from what I am recalling. Awaken, as usual, comes to mind, but there are probably a couple other things that work. PaO, ofc, is likely going to introduce some weirdness. Like, could you PaO a rock into a corpse, animate it with the spirit it, and then let it turn back into a rock? I'm sure there is a nifty way to exploit that (items with creatures inside sounds useful).
Heh, yeah, you could probably pull off some high scale silliness along those lines. Making an outsider rock reads a lot like making a psionic sandwich, especially if there's some psionic outsider, and you use a sandwich. What are the innate abilities of a rock? These are the thoughts that plague me, on occasion.

Still, I've gotta figure that there's some reasonable levels of silliness accessible just through the use of normally corpse-like stuff. It's a big pool of creatures, I figure, possibly to the extent that the body could feasibly be more important than the mind. They'd be like crazy outsider zombies, except with no limits apart from the crappy duration and casting time. It's some cool beans. Benign projection is also pretty cool, actually, as is celestial fortress, and vision of punishment, and maybe create lantern archon, to a lesser extent. I wonder why these things do not see love.

Edit: Especially if you combine benign projection with vision of punishment. Offensive divinations are pretty rare, all things considered.

Double edit: Just thought of a cool thing while considering ways to work past the crappy duration, and get this to serious minionmancy status (for everyone knows that duration is everything in minion production). Unlike planar ally, animate with the spirit is of the summoning subschool, which means that the moonspeaker extend summoning ability doubles its duration. Ashbound does not work here, as that only works with SNA, but it looks like a bunch of traditional druidic summoning stuff will apply to this spell. As for the duration aspect, combine extend summoning with either extend spell or a rod thereof, and you're already at 40 minutes/level. That there is a pretty respectable duration.

[eggynack]

So, just started compiling the list of good outsiders, cause that's what this thing gets, and I found the movanic deva (FF, 57). Is this creature as utterly ridiculous as it looks, even when used through a summoning spell which limits a creature to mental abilities, or am I missing something? It looks like this could be the plane shift access I've been looking for. Also a bunch of other stuff.

Picking a particular ally could be tricky, and up to adjudication, but it's a neat thing. Seems like the outright best choice for the outsider half of the equation, if there is a choice for that half of the equation. Also, it looks like summoned creatures can use divination, so that's also a cool thing that druids don't usually get. It usually doesn't come up, cause the casting time is long, but the duration here is sufficient for neat divination access. This is pretty sweet.

[ksbsnowowl]

So, just started compiling the list of good outsiders, cause that's what this thing gets, and I found the movanic deva (FF, 57). Is this creature as utterly ridiculous as it looks, even when used through a summoning spell which limits a creature to mental abilities, or am I missing something? It looks like this could be the plane shift access I've been looking for. Also a bunch of other stuff.

Yeah, the movanic deva is good. Also the only way (via lesser planar ally, etc.) to get raise dead for a 4th level spell.

By the way, in the Magic Item Compendium the metamagic rod of chaining was repriced at 54k gp.

[eggynack]

Yeah, the movanic deva is good. Also the only way (via lesser planar ally, etc.) to get raise dead for a 4th level spell.
That's especially good on a druid, for whom the alternative is something like reincarnate. The more I look at this thing, the more it feels like a strong list expander instead of a minionmancy tool. It can definitely do the latter thing, but if you can make sure that you'll get a movanic deva as the outsider half, that's a lot of crazy utility you're getting. I mean, just something as simple as at will cure serious wounds is pretty powerful, filling up the team on a constant basis, and presumably on a body that's capable of taking a hit. It's like getting a mini-cleric, except not all that mini. I suppose the next question is what the corpse should be, but honestly, that seems like it depends on even more fiat than the planar ally part.

By the way, in the Magic Item Compendium the metamagic rod of chaining was reprised at 54k gp.
Nice. That's a lot more viable then.

Edit: Wait, missed the 3/day line hanging out in the middle of those SLA's. Still pretty sweet.

Double-edit: According to monsterfinder, it looks like there are ten good outsiders with 6 HD or less. Those aren't the worst odds, I think, especially because the deva is straight good, which fits better with a neutral good druid than all of these LG and CG options.

[ShriekingDrake]

I'm finding this spell not especially well worded. (I realize I'm not the first to make this observation.) But, I'm trying to see how to implement this. Beyond just what is a corpse (mentioned above), I'm struggling with what this hybrid animated spirit will look like. Has anyone created one of these? I'm curious how you went about statting it out? (I'm also wondering if we're about to see druids lugging around the skeletal remains of increasingly powerful physical specimens.)

[eggynack]

I'm struggling with what this hybrid animated spirit will look like.
Honestly, I would figure that it'd look a lot like the corpse looked in life. All of the physical attributes come from the corpse, after all, and the outsider just provides the brain. I imagine that it might be shinier though, to reflect the fact that there's an outsider in there.

(I'm also wondering if we're about to see druids lugging around the skeletal remains of increasingly powerful physical specimens.)
Oh, I hope so. Druids that arbitrarily act like necromancers is a bit of a pet project of mine. I dunno if I've mentioned it in this thread, but it doesn't look like there are any restrictions on reusing corpses after the spell's duration ends, so if you find a truly excellent corpse, that could be the one you use forever.

[Cruiser1]

Picking a particular ally could be tricky, and up to adjudication
Indeed, the spell says you don't get to pick the Outsider. Instead you get an Outsider of your deity's choice. Like Planar Ally, you can request a particular Outsider, but you may get a different one anyway. Therefore this spell isn't a reliable way to get access to particular magical abilities.

[eggynack]

Indeed, the spell says you don't get to pick the Outsider. Instead you get an Outsider of your deity's choice. Like Planar Ally, you can request a particular Outsider, but you may get a different one anyway. Therefore this spell isn't a reliable way to get access to particular magical abilities.
It's certainly not reliable, but the way I figure it, if you have some time to work with, and you need a particular spell, then it makes sense to make repeated ally requests along a certain line, and hope that you eventually get the one you need. I would think that you'd eventually achieve your goal, given how few creatures fit the specifications of the mind half of the spell. As this is apparently the druid's sole native source of plane shift access, it stands to reason that analyzing that half of the spell is of some import. Still, if we seek to analyze this with reliability in mind, instead of maximum value gained over some indeterminate period of time, it may be worth looking at average and minimum value gained from the outsider half, by looking at every good outsider of 6 HD or less, instead of just the best one.

[Phelix-Mu]

I don't know if this is ever established by RAW, but there are supposedly more lower level outsiders than higher level ones. So, I would think that, by the numbers, you are really likely to net something like a lantern archon. Luckily, none of the other Upper Planes really has a conjugate for lantern archons from what I know (I don't think courre eladrin count).

[eggynack]

I don't know if this is ever established by RAW, but there are supposedly more lower level outsiders than higher level ones. So, I would think that, by the numbers, you are really likely to net something like a lantern archon. Luckily, none of the other Upper Planes really has a conjugate for lantern archons from what I know (I don't think courre eladrin count).
That would make sense, and would also be somewhat tragic. The trick, I suppose, would be making your druid's philosophy as antithetical to that of lantern archons as possible. So, I suppose you'd run around putting out lanterns in the dead of night or something. Maybe also act arbitrarily mean to dogs, to dissuade hound archons from helping you, and so on.

It may be tricky, after these arbitrary acts of cruelty, to maintain your good/neutral alignment, but maybe you can do something that really aligns with movanic devas. Perhaps fighting the forces of evil on a regular basis would help. It is implied that there are a lot of devas, by the by, and that they are commonly called through planar ally, so getting one might be reasonably common, especially when you're calling a movanic deva, which is the lesser variety. Sounds plausible. Not plausible in a manner that constitutes reliability, but still.

[Rubik]

Add Ocular Spell and Persistent Spell to make it last all day?

[eggynack]

Add Ocular Spell and Persistent Spell to make it last all day?
Nah, the casting time on ocular has to be a full round or less, and the casting time on animate with the spirit is 10 minutes.

[Rubik]

Nah, the casting time on ocular has to be a full round or less, and the casting time on animate with the spirit is 10 minutes.Well, a spell-to-power erudite does have Linked Power, which forces any spell or power it's used with to the manifesting time of the first power, so...

[eggynack]

Well, a spell-to-power erudite does have Linked Power, which forces any spell or power it's used with to the manifesting time of the first power, so...
That'd probably work, I suppose, though I've gotta figure that an StP erudite would have better options where minionmancy is concerned. It's possible that they don't though, as animate with the spirit is really cool, and that chain spell thing could probably fit into the plan somewhere to get you a mass persistent lesser planar ally. Anyway that's a decently sized part of why I consider it a mostly druidish thing, because druids really don't have many better options for minionmancy.

[Phelix-Mu]

Anyway that's a decently sized part of why I consider it a mostly druidish thing, because druids really don't have many better options for minionmancy.

Alas, if only elemental guardian wasn't more-or-less stationary.

[eggynack]

Alas, if only elemental guardian wasn't more-or-less stationary.
Which thing is that? I haven't seen it anywhere in my brief period of research between the comment I'm quoting and the one I'm posting, and I apparently do not have it written down anywhere.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm. Can I cut-and-paste from a Dragon Mag compilation (not the Dragon Mag itself) without violating forum rules?

Otherwise, I can PM you a copy, I suppose. The formatting is rather undesirable, because it includes a creature entry and a picture that I don't think I can easily omit. I'll look into it either way.

[eggynack]

Hmm. Can I cut-and-paste from a Dragon Mag compilation (not the Dragon Mag itself) without violating forum rules?

Otherwise, I can PM you a copy, I suppose. The formatting is rather undesirable, because it includes a creature entry and a picture that I don't think I can easily omit. I'll look into it either way.
Well, that'd explain that then. I'd probably be able to find it with a citation, though I don't think that dragon mag stuff would necessarily be all that helpful, as it's currently outside the scope of my research.

[Phelix-Mu]

Too bad. It's a seriously excellent spell for getting guard minions, even with mobility problems (though it does take 10minutes to cast...so purely out-of-combat). 4th level that lasts 1day/level is very useful. Granted, not holding a candle to planar binding, though, due to lack of versatility (you can only get a lesser elemental weird, though you get to pick the element).

My source says it's from Dragon Magazine #347, an article called "Ecology- Ecology of the Elemental Weird."

Overall, druids probably don't lose much without access to it, aside from a particularly effective form of guard dog.

[Rubik]

Animate With the Spirit explicitly allows for outsiders with class levels, so start summoning neraph wizards and clerics and druids and artificers and such if you can find a way to summon what you want.

[eggynack]

Too bad. It's a seriously excellent spell for getting guard minions, even with mobility problems (though it does take 10minutes to cast...so purely out-of-combat). 4th level that lasts 1day/level is very useful. Granted, not holding a candle to planar binding, though, due to lack of versatility (you can only get a lesser elemental weird, though you get to pick the element).
It is a rather nice spell, though I figure that there needs to be some sort of established scope, which is currently defined as anything that's ever been printed in a first party book. There's always a possibility for expansion outwards, especially as it seems like dragon stuff is getting somewhat broader acceptance now (I think it's a Tippy thing), but that's probably a thing that's strictly in the future. As for the spell itself, incredibly long duration effects are always worth consideration, even if they're tied to one location, and this seems to be a strong effect within that type of spell.

[ShriekingDrake]

eggynack: when you get your list assembled of either good or viable outsiders, I hope you'll post it.

[eggynack]

eggynack: when you get your list assembled of either good or viable outsiders, I hope you'll post it.
My list is currently just pulled from monster finder (http://monsterfinder.dndrunde.de/). It looks like the whole list of accessible outsiders goes movanic deva (FF, 57), hound archon, lantern archon, justice archon (MM IV, 80), bariaur (BoED, 166), cervidal (MM II, 43), dwarf ancestor (MM IV, 52), bralani, coure (BoED, 168), equinal (BoED, 173), musteval (BoED, 174), hollyphant (BoED, 176), and triton. A cursory look through these options indicates that most are rather weak, samey, and generally uninteresting.

The first standout is the movanic deva, as previously mentioned. The second is the equinal, which has dimension door, dispel magic, magic circle against evil, and magic missile at will, and slow and wall of stone once/day, as really relevant magical capabilities. The third is the hollyphant, which has once/day banishment, flame strike, heal, and raise dead as spell likes, as well as at will invisibility and suggestion as relevant psionic abilities. Which is odd, because they look a lot like spell likes. The hollyphant also has alternate form, and invulnerability based on use of alternate form, and I have no idea how that works. Also, telepathy. Those are the three that I think I'd consider the most viable, though I admittedly haven't gone into heavy research mode about these options, and I'm not sure if there are other options outside of those listed on monsterfinder, because that site doesn't have every book.

[Rubik]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17113568&postcount=24

[eggynack]

I saw. I just don't quite know what to do with that yet. It has even more specific requirements than just getting a monster, for one thing, and the optimization in that arena strikes me as, y'know, class optimization. "How do I optimize some arbitrary 6th level caster?" is a question with an answer that is both ridiculously complex, and reasonably known. I mean, at that point I might as well just point to the wizard handbook, and other relevant handbooks to a lesser extent. Might even reference the work itself when discussing how to optimize a 6th level druid.