Lion Totem Vs Spirit Lion Totem 3.5

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys.

I was wondering, of the two totems mentioned in the title, which do you prefer? Why? And while you're here, which do you guys feel is better to take a dip into for scout. (I just made one, dual wielding, dodge+mobility, probably going to end up as swift hunter) And ya, go nuts.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Let's see... a crappy bonus feat (Run) and some insultingly small numerical bonuses at later levels, or the single most useful ability for melee characters (Pounce) from level 1? Big debate there, aye.

So yes, you want the non-crappy, Pounce-granting Spirit Lion Totem ACF for any character, but particularly for a scout.

(You may have been thinking of the non-spirit Wolf Totem barbarian, which is pretty decent, since you get Improved Trip for free. Curiously, by RAW you can take both of those ACFs...)

[Yorrin]

Spirit Lion Totem is the one that gives Pounce, yes? If so, that's the reason people around here dip into Barbarian in the first place. Any melee build would be foolish to do anything else with Barbarian.

[eggynack]

Spirit lion by infinite miles. Pounce is fantastic, and run, a +2 to hide, and a +2 to damage on a charge is just about as far as you can get from fantastic, especially when you need five barbarian levels to get all of that compared to one for spirit lion, and double especially when you're losing the opportunity to pick up wolf totem. I can't really imagine a build where lion totem would be better, unless you're just specifically picking up run as a bonus feat for shuffling purposes, and even then you'd be better off with something else.

[Teapot Salty]

Let's see... a crappy bonus feat (Run) and some insultingly small numerical bonuses at later levels, or the single most useful ability for melee characters (Pounce) from level 1? Big debate there, aye.

So yes, you want the non-crappy, Pounce-granting Spirit Lion Totem ACF for any character, but particularly for a scout.

(You may have been thinking of the non-spirit Wolf Totem barbarian, which is pretty decent, since you get Improved Trip for free. Curiously, by RAW you can take both of those ACFs...)
Well.... that was easy. Since pounce grants you a full attack on a charge that means I can use both of my weapons right?

[eggynack]

Well.... that was easy. Since pounce grants you a full attack on a charge that means I can use both of my weapons right?
I don't see why not.

[Teapot Salty]

I don't see why not.
Holy.... that was quick. Let's say for the sake of argument that my dm doesn't allow spirit lion. What should I take? I do want to take a level in barbarian, and my dm might see that as op. (Although He's starting to be more lenient, saying "well wizards are op as hell, it's unfair not to let everyone else be as well.")

[Yorrin]

Well.... that was easy. Since pounce grants you a full attack on a charge that means I can use both of my weapons right?

Yes, that's the whole point. You get a full attack at the end of any charge. Which includes all the attacks from the TWF line. And as a Scout you're going to be getting Skirmish as well on that. Finding ways to get extra attacks (or bonus damage on a charge) would be a good thing to keep an eye out for.

[eggynack]

Holy.... that was quick. Let's say for the sake of argument that my dm doesn't allow spirit lion. What should I take? I do want to take a level in barbarian, and my dm might see that as op. (Although He's starting to be more lenient, saying "well wizards are op as hell, it's unfair not to let everyone else be as well.")
I have been known for my swiftness. Maybe. Anyway, probably bear totem. Improved grab is halfway decent, I suppose. Spirit lion is kinda irreplaceable though.

Edit:
Yes, that's the whole point.
I definitely wouldn't call TWF the whole point, or even, perhaps, most of the point. I'd put much more of the awesome in the part where you combine it with shock trooper.

[Teapot Salty]

Yes, that's the whole point. You get a full attack at the end of any charge. Which includes all the attacks from the TWF line. And as a Scout you're going to be getting Skirmish as well on that. Finding ways to get extra attacks (or bonus damage on a charge) would be a good thing to keep an eye out for.

What advantage does charging give me over just running in and cutting up my opponent?

[eggynack]

What advantage does charging give me over just running in and cutting up my opponent?
You get to move and full attack, such that you don't have to maintain your position next to your enemy for a whole round before full attacking. Also, as I mentioned above, shock trooper. Full attacking on a charge with all of your AC siphoned into damage through power attack is crazy buns.

[Yorrin]

What advantage does charging give me over just running in and cutting up my opponent?

Pounce. Without pounce your charge is just a standard attack. With it it's a full attack. Which means all your iteratives and TWF stuff and natural weapons and anything else you can cram in there. You can get off a lot of attacks with a Pounce, and you can do it from a good distance away thanks to charging. The only catch is that you have to have unobstructed terrain to your opponent, but when it works it's wonderful.

[Kraken]

Holy.... that was quick. Let's say for the sake of argument that my dm doesn't allow spirit lion. What should I take? I do want to take a level in barbarian, and my dm might see that as op. (Although He's starting to be more lenient, saying "well wizards are op as hell, it's unfair not to let everyone else be as well.")

Wolf totem is okay, it grants improved trip, allowing you to make a tripping build without burning a feat on combat expertise. Add in the knockdown feat to get free trip attempts with basically every hit, and you've got a decent foundation. Also, there's no reason that you can't combine wolf totem and spirit lion totem. There's dozens of examples of people and cultures revering multiple animals in real life, so it's an entirely sound concept.

[Teapot Salty]

Wolf totem is okay, it grants improved trip, allowing you to make a tripping build without burning a feat on combat expertise. Add in the knockdown feat to get free trip attempts with basically every hit, and you've got a decent foundation. Also, there's no reason that you can't combine wolf totem and spirit lion totem. There's dozens of examples of people and cultures revering multiple animals in real life, so it's an entirely sound concept. Hm nifty. Only problem is that for scout, I don't plan to stay in one place to trip and hit, more hit and run like hell, although I suppose tripping them could be usefull for getting out of there.

[chaos_redefined]

Important question...

Why do you want to dip barbarian? Rather than just play your scout and occasionally get angry without stats reflecting this?

[eggynack]

Important question...

Why do you want to dip barbarian? Rather than just play your scout and occasionally get angry without stats reflecting this?
Indeed. I mean, were it me, the answer would be simple, because I'd be taking it in order to pick up pounce, because pounce is awesome. Without it, actually barbarians are kinda still good on a dip, mostly for whirling frenzy and wolf totem, but that's more of a cool thing to pick up than a crucial one. I'd probably skip the whole thing were I denied pounce.

[Urpriest]

Hm nifty. Only problem is that for scout, I don't plan to stay in one place to trip and hit, more hit and run like hell, although I suppose tripping them could be usefull for getting out of there.

Improved Trip gives you an immediate extra attack right after tripping your opponent, so you get to take advantage of the fact that your opponent is tripped without waiting a round in the same place.

[chaos_redefined]

I might consider a cleric dip with travel and fury to represent the mobility and rage that barbarian would normally give. And then take travel devotion. But that might be me being crazy.

[Teapot Salty]

Important question...

Why do you want to dip barbarian? Rather than just play your scout and occasionally get angry without stats reflecting this?

Well.... namely for pounce, and even basic barbarian gets fast movement which is nice, and raging helps me hit with dual weapons, which helps a lot since I'll be taking a -2 penalty on my attacks once I get the feat. (Which I guess I can get at level 2 without taking a dip into ranger for) and I like the idea of being connected to lions, makes sense for the italian scout who-a likes to pounce-a and agrily rip crap apart. Aaannnddd then run away.

[Scow2]

I'd think that without Spirit Lion being an option, you'd want to stick with the default "Leopard Totem" for two dips - You get a leg up on your speed bonus, which stacks with later Scout speed enhancements, full BAB for two levels, and early access to Improved Uncanny Dodge (Which I can't remember if Scouts get at all)

You definitely want Whirling Frenzy instead of normal rage, though... Or at least I think you do. You don't want Two-weapon fighting - grab a shield instead.

Also, a quirk about Whirling Frenzy - Unlike every other instance of extra attacks, it doesn't say you need to make the extra attack as part of a Full Attack, which implictly means you can make it as part of any turn where you attack (Or are entitled to that free attack any round, regardless of what kind of action you take). It's a nice power boost without being as obscene as Pounce is compared to pounceless melee builds.

Frankly, I think the need for a Full Attack for two weapon fighting is one of the biggest rules atrocities of 3.X.

[Teapot Salty]

Improved Trip gives you an immediate extra attack right after tripping your opponent, so you get to take advantage of the fact that your opponent is tripped without waiting a round in the same place.

Oh, so hit him, (twice) with skirmish, knock him down, hit him again (twice?) and retreat?

[eggynack]

Oh, so hit him, (twice) with skirmish, knock him down, hit him again (twice?) and retreat?
With just improved trip, you use your attack to trip, and if you succeed you get a single free attack. If you add knock-down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) the routine becomes hit, trip, hit, which is pretty sweet.

Edit: Obviously you can also use iteratives if you have them, though not on the extra trip from knock-down, and not on the extra attack after improved trip.

[Hurnn]

if you are dipping barb take whirling frenzy also, and wolf totem at barb 2 for the free imp trip.

[chaos_redefined]

If pounce isn't an option, then you want Travel Devotion from Complete Champion. A 1-level dip in cleric allows you to power it more than once a day.

Pros and cons (compared to Barb1 for pounce)
+More versatile movement (can go over difficult terrain, doesn't need a straight line)
+Travel domain has longstrider at first level, meaning you can pick up both pounce and the extra 10 ft movement. (Celerity domain can be swapped for the travel devotion feat)
+Bonus +2 will save
+If you go cloistered cleric, you get 6+int skill points, vs the barbarian's 4+int.
+Opens up other ways to use your turn undead attempts.
-Barb 1 gives +1 BAB and rage, which cleric doesn't give.
-Barb has a better hit dice.
-Travel devotion uses your swift action, which you may have other uses for.

[eggynack]

Pros and cons (compared to Barb1 for pounce)
+More versatile movement (can go over difficult terrain, doesn't need a straight line)
+Travel domain has longstrider at first level, meaning you can pick up both pounce and the extra 10 ft movement. (Celerity domain can be swapped for the travel devotion feat)
+Bonus +2 will save
+If you go cloistered cleric, you get 6+int skill points, vs the barbarian's 4+int.
+Opens up other ways to use your turn undead attempts.
-Barb 1 gives +1 BAB and rage, which cleric doesn't give.
-Barb has a better hit dice.
-Travel devotion uses your swift action, which you may have other uses for.
This isn't entirely right, I think, for a few reasons. First, I'm pretty sure that you lose access to the relevant domain spells if you trade travel domain for travel devotion. You do get other cool spells though. Cause you're a cleric. Second, you're missing one of the biggest pros, which is that you also get two other feats. Knowledge devotion alone has a high potential of erasing the +1 BAB issue, and picking up something like animal or law on top of that is pretty awesome, and might even approximate rage. Probably not whirling frenzy though. You're probably going to be getting rage too, by the by. I'd figure that it would be a barbarian with a cleric dip, rather than some random character with a barbarian dip. Third, you've missed one of the biggest advantages of pounce, which is that you're charging. Charging means shock trooper, and shock trooper means ridiculousness. I think that about covers it.

[chaos_redefined]

I covered the domain issue by saying that the Celerity domain can be swapped for the Travel Devotion feat. So you end up getting the Travel Domain AND the Travel Devotion feat.

The OP was after a dip on their scout, which usually uses up their skill points (assuming the DM is nice enough to give them trapfinding). If not, then sure, Knowledge Devotion is great and should be taken.

And yeah... Whirling Frenzy and Shock Trooper are definitely good things. But, I see Shock Trooper as unnecessary here, for what seems to be either a scout or a swift hunter.

[Larkas]

If you can't access Spirit Lion Totem, you might want to look at the Snow Tiger Berserker feat. It's basically the same thing, though only with light weapons (which means no Power Attack). The Lion Tribe Warrior (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041001b) feat approximates it, but it kind of screws up two-weapons users.