3.5 Melee Incarnate?

[Vrock_Summoner]

Hey, guys! Today I come to you in need of some advice. See, I'm about to play in a game that uses Incarnum and ToB and is otherwise mostly devoid of anything that could be considered magic (with a special exception for magical beasties, to avoid Totemists being up a creek). Problem is, although I've read the book through, it's my first time using it and I don't really know how to be effective at all.

I'm wanting to play a melee-focused character, but although the DM houseruled that they get bonus Incarnum feats every other level, Soulborn still kind of suck, and the flavor isn't there for me at all. I want to play a true warrior of Incarnum, who at the peak points of his power is donning his entire body in his Soulmelds, including his weapon and armor which he'll likely invest essentia into abilities to improve. Naturally, the most fitting choice was an Incarnate despite their low BAB.

... Except I haven't the faintest clue how to not suck in this role. Like, at all. I've never been even so much as decent at system mastery, and now I'm using materials I have basically no experience with.

So, what do I do to be a good melee Incarnate? Most sources are open, but note that Evil alignments are banned. Not that the Evil Incarnate's additional ability is all that great, but aside from the free movement speed it's the best alignment for a melee type. We're starting at level 1. I need to be able to hold my own alongside what I assume will be decently well-played characters of the pinnacle melee classes (ToB is allowed after all :smalleek:) but I'd like to stay true to my concept (even if said concept isn't exactly original.

Chosen Soulmelds, feats, best chakra binds, build... Halp?

[gorfnab]

These may be of some help
Incarnum Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=576)
Incarnate Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=580.0)
Incarnate by the numbers (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1041916)

Although if you want to go with natural attacks and be a melee tank Totemist might be worth looking into.
Totemist (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=583) Handbooks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=287304)

[Bit Fiend]

Slightly off topic: instead of playing a melee Incarnate, why not have a character that is melee incarnate! :smalltongue:

[Alent]

Slightly off topic: instead of playing a melee Incarnate, why not have a character that is melee incarnate! :smalltongue:

Necrocarnum: I am death incarnate.

[Yogibear41]

Playing an incarnate atm, although still low level(1st time with incarnum classes as well)


From what I have looked at there are a 2-3 good options for playing a melee incarnate.

1. Be a dwarf, be lawful or good, take a level of fighter for free feat and armor Profs (maybe more if you want) enter into the Ironsoul Forgemaster PRC (this is the plan I am going for currently incarnate2/fighter1 good aligned-going for more of a tanky person that pure damage though, law looks better for damage while good looks better for defense)

2. Be a skarn, be lawful, take 2 levels of incarnate, 4 levels of fighter then enter into the spinemeld warrior (could take more levels of incarnate and less of fighter but this lets you enter sooner and pick up weapon spec: spines) this will get you to level 16 with a + 15 bab, should probably finish up with incarnate levels from there.

3. Be any race, be lawful, take 2 levels of incarnate, then 3 of cleric then enter into the sapphire hierarch, use Divine Metamagic to get you persisted Divine Power to make up for lose of BAB, as well as give you other super buffs.
(this is probably the most powerful option) but since you said the things about low magic this may not be an option to you.

Another option would be using the legacy champion prc from the legacy weapons book to advance the incarnate class with a slightly improved hit die and BAB, if that is available to you.

The Incadescent Champion could be of us, it doesn't progress soulmelds but does give bonus essentia d10 HD and medium BAB.

You might also find things like crusader/warblade to be useful instead of things like fighter for dips.

EDIT: when you say soulborn get bonus incarnum feats every other level, does that mean only the feats with the [incarnum] tag, or can they take feats like shape soulmeld as well? If they can do that then they can basically take that and the open chakra feats as needed to get them alot closer to having full soulmelds and full chakra slots like an incarnum with no loss of BAB.

While hes at it tell him to give them good will saves too lol.

[Particle_Man]

The straight up level 1 to 20 lawful neutral incarnate tends to be a good meelee choice, even without the sapphire hierarch (there are even ways to get into that prestige class as incarnate 1/cleric 3, but if cleric is banned, so be it). Beware the dispel magic spell! If you don't multiclass, azurin works just fine for this.

You could try the neutral good vow of poverty option (since you can't use magic items anyhow with the vow of poverty, it is no loss to have bound chakra in the magic item slots - also, with no wizards, clerics, etc., there may be less of the typical magic items around anyhow, as the spells to build them are absent from the setting, so a lot of the typical downsides of vow of poverty are applicable to all characters in this setting anyhow - might as well get some benefits for those downsides).

[Big Fau]

LN and NE are the best alignments for melee-oriented Incarnates. LN because you can use Power Attack far more efficiently (boosting your attack bonuses is trivial for one), NE because you can do an AoO-focused build and rack up the damage that way. Either one is good at 1st level, but towards the higher levels it really depends on what kind of enemies you'll be facing (big things tend to hate on the NE Incarnate, while multiple enemies are the bane of LN ones if the DM is aware of how to deal with a Charger build).

[Bloodgruve]

Sapphire Hierarch with Midnight Metamagic and a couple other feats you can persist Divine Power for full BAB and amazing +hit.

Without Divine Power you have some other ways of getting decent hit but not a lot of iteratives. I wish Incarnate had medium BAB.

Lawful with High Strength, Incarnate Weapon, Incarnate Avatar and Incarnum Radiance for hit. Skillful weapon enchant brings your BAB to medium IIRC also but you lose your Incarnate Weapon less you dual wield.

Even though Incarnate Weapon is 1h you can wield it 2h so Power Attack/Leap Attack charger works well.

That 'Incarnate by the numbers' post is great.

Fun class with a lot of options.

GL
Blood~

[VonDragon]

skillful weapon enchant from complete arcane give you medium bab while wielding that weapon, it's a +2 bonus

[Yorrin]

I've actually rolled an Evil melee Incarnate before.

Necrocarnum Touch (unbound) + Lightning Gauntlets (bound to hands) + Incarnate Avatar (soul bind if you want) + Bloodwar Gauntlets (unbound) can pump out a good amount of damage with a melee touch attack (5d8 negative energy + 6d6 electricity + 18 untyped). Investing 6 each leaves you a couple points to spend elsewhere, and since only the lightning gauntlets require a bind the rest is pretty flexible.

Best of all you can basically have it running (sans full essentia investment) by level four. At that point just put one essentia in each. The Bloodwar Gauntlets are bottom priority if you want to focus on one of the others or some other soulmeld.

Edit: Forgot to mention that all my spare points ended up going into Vitality Belt, and I actually was doing a 50/50 split between that and the Bloodwar Gauntlets. Azurin + Bonus Essentia feat gives an extra 3 essentia, which also helped keep things topped up.

[Talionis]

It's hard. You have lowest BAB. While you can add up to some the best Defenses in the game, finding what to do on offense can be a real challenge. Generally you have to think like a Fighter and add Feats.

Personman's Guide to melee:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026

Being a Dwarf and going into Ironsoul Forgemaster will eventually add decent Daze effects to your attacks, but that level 15. But the medium BAB is an improvement. And you get even better Defenses right from the first levels.

I've also thought that a dedicated tripper could be good. Getting extra attacks from Attacks of Opportunity. But it's a mosh mash since you'd want high Dex, but the Soulborn Soulmeld Mauling Guantlets and Totem meld that boosts strength checks are the two primary bonuses to tripping in Magic of Incarnum.

[Big Fau]

I've actually rolled an Evil melee Incarnate before.

Necrocarnum Touch (unbound) + Lightning Gauntlets (bound to hands) + Incarnate Avatar (soul bind if you want) + Bloodwar Gauntlets (unbound) can pump out a good amount of damage with a melee touch attack (5d8 negative energy + 6d6 electricity + 18 untyped). Investing 6 each leaves you a couple points to spend elsewhere, and since only the lightning gauntlets require a bind the rest is pretty flexible.

Best of all you can basically have it running (sans full essentia investment) by level four. At that point just put one essentia in each. The Bloodwar Gauntlets are bottom priority if you want to focus on one of the others or some other soulmeld.

Edit: Forgot to mention that all my spare points ended up going into Vitality Belt, and I actually was doing a 50/50 split between that and the Bloodwar Gauntlets. Azurin + Bonus Essentia feat gives an extra 3 essentia, which also helped keep things topped up.

2 things: You forgot about needing Double Chakra for the Bloodwar Gauntlets+Necrocarnum Touch (you can't shape two soulmelds on the same Chakra), and Necrocarnum Touch can't be used with the Lightning Gauntlets' arm bind effect (since it is very specific about what can be used with it).

[Vrock_Summoner]

So although it won't be as good as it could be, since I am planning to start with 18 STR and 16 Con (it's 32 pb) would being Azurin and grabbing Cobalt Charge and that one feat (Improved Soulmeld Capacity?) that lets you invest an extra essentia in a Soulmeld, applied to Incarnate Weapon, be a good basis for charging at first level? I could retrain Cobalt Charge later most likely, but I can't find a lot else to do to be effective at low levels. On the upside, it leaves me another Soulmeld not going into my main strategy, which would go for a utility shape like the feet that allow early flight (agh, names) or Crystal Helm (though I get another Soulmeld at level 2 and could bind CH to my crown chakra then, so I think getting the flight first will be better in the short term).

[Fax Celestis]

It's hard. You have lowest BAB. While you can add up to some the best Defenses in the game, finding what to do on offense can be a real challenge. Generally you have to think like a Fighter and add Feats.

BAB is overrated.

[Yorrin]

2 things: You forgot about needing Double Chakra for the Bloodwar Gauntlets+Necrocarnum Touch (you can't shape two soulmelds on the same Chakra), and Necrocarnum Touch can't be used with the Lightning Gauntlets' arm bind effect (since it is very specific about what can be used with it).

You most certainly can shape two soulmelds that can be bound to the same chakra as long as only of of them is actually bound. An unbound soulmeld is essentially a slotless item. I would also argue your interpretation of Lightning Gauntlets, but I realize that many will agree with you.

[Talionis]

BAB is overrated.

BAB is very helpful for Power Attack which is normally a goto for melee types. Iteratives are nice to get some of the small bonuses from Soulmelds to add up.

Fax you are no dummy... If BAB is so overrated what direction would you take a melee incarnate?

[ScionoftheVoid]

You most certainly can shape two soulmelds that can be bound to the same chakra as long as only of of them is actually bound. An unbound soulmeld is essentially a slotless item. I would also argue your interpretation of Lightning Gauntlets, but I realize that many will agree with you.


CHAKRAS

Every soulmeld occupies a chakra, even if it is not bound to it. When a soulmeld occupies a chakra, the meldshaper can still wear and benefit from a magic item that occupies the corresponding body slot. ... [fluff about appearance] ... You cannot shape two soulmelds that occupy the same chakra.

Emphasis mine.

[Yorrin]

Emphasis mine.

The rule says occupy the same chakra, not CAN occupy the same chakra. Occupy=bound to. By having them unbound they do no occupy any chakra.

[Glimbur]

Every soulmeld occupies a chakra, even if it is not bound to it

Emphasis added.

On a more on-topic note for the thread, have you considered the wonderful world of Necrocarnum? There's a meld that debuffs people you are next to, but more importantly the Necrocarnum Circlet lets you make a zombie. For free. As a full round action. Starting at level 2. The only thing better than a melee character is two melee characters.

You'll want to work out with your DM exactly who gets to pick feats and skill points for the critter, and in either case there should be a typical list so that this can happen quickly in game.

You'll need to be Evil or Neutral and spend a feat to get this, but the Circlet alone is worth the price of admission.

[Fax Celestis]

BAB is very helpful for Power Attack which is normally a goto for melee types. Iteratives are nice to get some of the small bonuses from Soulmelds to add up.

Fax you are no dummy... If BAB is so overrated what direction would you take a melee incarnate?

Go up the thread a little: there's an Incarnate By The Numbers link there. Read the LN and NE lines.

[Yuki Akuma]

The rule says occupy the same chakra, not CAN occupy the same chakra. Occupy=bound to. By having them unbound they do no occupy any chakra.

That's not how it works at all. A soulmeld occupies the chakra it's shaped into. Binding simply means you can't also use a magic item there.