What stacks with Haste? (was: Simple Q&A)

[Firechanter]

Since there is some disagreement in the Simple Q&A-Thread, obviously disqualifying this question as "Simple", I am taking the liberty to make a new thread to discuss this further.

The discussion so far:


Q 651

Interaction between Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) and Flashing Sun (http://dndtools.eu/spells/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/flashing-sun--3578/).

My take is the manuever let's you make a full attack action, and then grants you an additional attack afterwards. Haste states that while performing a full attack action, you gain an additional attack during the full attack action.

Reasoning: Since you take a -2 to all attacks that round (due to the manuever), the manuever is more akin to a flurry of blows, or two weapon fighting, than a similar effect as haste.


A651:

Haste is explicitly not cumulative with similar effects (ones that grant extra attacks per round).



A 651 - Objection

I am sure Haste does stack with Maneuvers, because these maneuvers do not grant a Haste effect. Quote,
"This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed"
The Speed property is basically Haste applied to a weapon.

So in short, maneuvers granting extra attacks are not "similar to Haste". You can also combine Haste with Dancing/Raging Mongoose, for that matter.

Any further discussion would bust the scope of this "Simple Q&A" thread and should be relocated to a separate thread.


Apologies for continuing this topic but I'll keep it brief.

Haste is a Spell effect, and does not stack with similar effects, namely Spell or Spell-like effects.

A Swordsage Maneuver is an Extraordinary Ability unless the Maneuver specifies otherwise in its description.

Other examples of Extraordinary Abilities include the aforementioned Flurry of Blows, which is accepted to stack with Haste and has a similar effect.

Therefore I believe Haste should stack with Flashing Sun.


A 651 - Confirmation
Re-read the spell description.

The bolded part is the exclusion from stacking. Note that this is very carefully placed in the paragraph about getting an extra attack, so the effect that does not stack is "an extra attack". Thus Haste does not stack with any ability that grants a bonus attack.
This has nothing to do with whether the bonus attack comes from a Spell, Spell-Like, Supernatural, Extraordinary or other ability.

Hmm, technically this means haste does not stack with Rapid Shot or Flurry of Blows.


If you read it that way haste also does not stack with extra attacks from having more than one natural weapon, high BAB or using TWF, it merely improves the AB of one such attack. With improved multi-attack or 5 levels of Tempest and using a light weapon in the off-hand you would only get the numerical bonuses from haste, because you already get an extra attack at your highest AB.

You are forgetting the important part. Only similar effects are excluded from stacking. Since similar is not defined, it is entirely up to the DM which effects that give an extra attack are similar to haste.



Round 6! Fight!

[JDL]

In my personal opinion, I'd judge Haste to stack with anything that functions within an antimagic field.

[OMG PONIES]

Hey folks, I'm the DM in question. My initial assessment (confirmed by the discussion thus far) is that the problem comes from a lack of definition on what makes an effect "similar." While the text provides an example in the weapon of speed, is that to say that any less similar effects are no longer similar?

I'd rule that it's up to a DM to determine what counts as a similar effect.

[OldTrees1]

Flurries:
Any ability that grants an extra attack(s) but imposes an attack penalty on all attacks.
Ex: Two Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows, Whirling Frenzy, Flashing Sun, ...

Haste-like abilities:
Any ability that grants an extra attack without penalty.
Ex: Haste, Speed, ...

Flurries stack with each other.
Haste-like abilities do not stack with each other.
Flurries stack with a Haste-like ability.
("a" since Haste-like abilities do not stack with each other)

[Krobar]

The way I rule this, and YMMV, is haste is magical. It stacks with stuff that is based on ability, physical training, etc. (for example Flurry of Blows), but not other magical effects.

[OMG PONIES]

Not trying to be flippant, but it sounds like we're getting a lot of personal ideas for definitions of "similar." Is it safe to say that there is thus no RAW definition of "similar effects," thus leaving it to individual DMs?

[Firechanter]

As a rule of thumb, JDL's one-liner is not a bad thing to go by. I also quoted his more verbose explanation in the first post. This is definitely how I rule this.

So to reiterate:
Haste does not stack with Spells, Spell-Like Abilities or Supernatural Abilities,
Haste stacks with Extraordinary Abilities.

[Gemini476]

Flurries:
Any ability that grants an extra attack(s) but imposes an attack penalty on all attacks.
Ex: Two Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows, Whirling Frenzy, Flashing Sun, ...

Haste-like abilities:
Any ability that grants an extra attack without penalty.
Ex: Haste, Speed, ...

Flurries stack with each other.
Haste-like abilities do not stack with each other.
Flurries stack with a Haste-like ability.
("a" since Haste-like abilities do not stack with each other)

Would that mean that Flurry of Blows stops stacking with Haste after 9th level?
Or that someone with Improved Multiattack can no longer benefit from Haste when attacking with secondary natural attacks?

[OldTrees1]

Would that mean that Flurry of Blows stops stacking with Haste after 9th level?
Or that someone with Improved Multiattack can no longer benefit from Haste when attacking with secondary natural attacks?

Good counterexamples. You convinced me that I was wrong.


Q: So what do Haste and Speed have in common that 9th level Flurry of Blows do not?
A: Both Haste and Speed are derived from Haste.

[Taelas]

The original spell is rather vague on this point. A speed weapon is enchanted using haste; it's not really a good example in the first place.

I don't see anything wrong with interpreting the spell to allow it to stack with non-magical effects, but strictly speaking, anything that is similar to haste should, by RAW, not stack with it.

[Firechanter]

One reason, apart from the fact that I simply consider it logical, that I support the ruling to have nonmagical effects stack with anything, is that it's typically Mundanes who get Ex bonus attacks. I want Mundanes to make more attacks than Casters. Casters might be able to stack magical buffs on themselves giving them umpteen extra attacks if that were allowed, and I am thoroughly fed up with Casters being better at the Melees' shtick than the actual Melees.
If Ex bonus attacks don't stack with Haste, the Melee's got nothing on the Casters again.

[ericgrau]

To mess this up some more, there's an epic feat that grants non-magical haste called blinding speed.

There aren't very many magical effects that grant an extra attack and even fewer that don't say "this doesn't stack with haste", so it may be simpler to go over them one by one.

I think it should stack with flashing sun b/c flashing sun does seem styled more like a flurry to me, but in the end it's up to your DM.

It would be nice if flashing sun had way more fluff instead of saying "oh hey, there's a -2, not gonna say why". With natural feats and special abilities you can at least understand that your attention is diverted so you lose some accuracy even if they don't say so specifically. And with haste you're magically transformed ("transmuted" to be precise) so there's no penalty from loss of attention. Flashing sun sounds like you're pulling off some magnificently impossible achievement of speed, but oh hey you get a -2 with your magnificence? What? But this is mundane not magical. But you can only do it once after intense focus and preparation and then you need to re-ready it. Even though it's a totally normal action. Arrrrrgh. To determine if it were similarly styled to haste, its style would have to make sense in the first place. It doesn't, so anybody's guess is as good as anyone else's. Make up a reason and an answer and go with it.

[Thurbane]

My simplified understanding is that Haste does not stack with anything that flat-out grants an extra attack (such as the Speed weapon enhancement), but works with anything that allows an extra attack as part of a routine (TWF, flurry of blows, Rapid Shot etc.).

[XionUnborn01]

Here's what I'm seeing when reading these back and forth.

Haste Says when Making A Full Attack Action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. (Holding...so apparently suck it monks and your natural weapons.)

Flashing Sun Says As part of this maneuver you Take A Full Attack Action and make your normal attacks. However you make one additional attack this round at your highest base attack bonus.

The way I'm reading it is that if you're a 8th level swordsage, your normal attacks are +6/+1. If you're hasted it's +6/+6/+1. With Flashing Sun it's +4/+4/-1. So far so good. How I interpret it is that Haste basically makes your 'normal attacks' in a full attack +6/+6/+1 for it's duration and Flashing sun gives you your normal attacks plus one additional making your attack +4/+4/+4/-1.

I say it stacks because I feel that a 'similar' effect would be something ongoing that applies every round. I guess really, I don't really count Flashing Sun as an 'effect' but an ability like trip or grapple.

[lsfreak]

Of course, you have problems with inconsistencies, as is rampant with WotC. Righteous Wrath of the Faithful just says it doesn't stack with anything that grants extra attacks.

[Roog]

Would there be any problem with saying that for the purposes of what stacks with haste, similar effects are only those that function "as haste" or are explicitly stated as being similar?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Would there be any problem with saying that for the purposes of what stacks with haste, similar effects are only those that function "as haste" or are explicitly stated as being similar?

That's what would be referred to as "common sense."

It is unwelcome in RAW discussions, and those participating react to it like a vampire does to the sun. :smallfrown:

[Phelix-Mu]

Would there be any problem with saying that for the purposes of what stacks with haste, similar effects are only those that function "as haste" or are explicitly stated as being similar?

With the outcome being largely that haste doesn't stack with haste? Well, that would already have been true due to general rules on spells stacking, but is obvious. The problem with that interpretation is that the given example, a weapon of speed, is only superficially similar to haste, and not a haste effect itself, IIRC.

Still, I do think the main intent was to stop multiple haste benefits from being stacked together, not to hard cap extra attacks above those granted by iteratives at one.

[Roog]

The problem with that interpretation is that the given example, a weapon of speed, is only superficially similar to haste, and not a haste effect itself, IIRC.


...for the purposes of what stacks with haste, similar effects are only those that function "as haste" or are explicitly stated as being similar?

Haste specifically call out a weapon of speed as a similar effect.

[Captnq]

I don't see where the confusion is, if you are looking for the RAW of the matter.

Haste:
"When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding."
"This effect is not cumulative with similar effects"

Now, if it said HASTED, or SPEED, or anything other then SIMILAR, we'd be cool. But it doesn't. It says SIMILAR. So, anything that is like:

1. You make a full attack action.
2. With melee.
3. That gives you an extra attack.


is similar to haste.

So what is Flashing sun?

1. You need to make a full attack action.
2. It must be melee
3. You get an extra attack.


Now, is it similar? Yes. It does not stack. Sorry. No can do. Now, if you got an extra action from something other then haste, then that and flashing sun would stack, but haste does not stack with flashing sun. Flashing sun has no limits on what it can stack with, however.

I don't care about supernatural, spell like, extraordinary or FoB, or anything else. None of that has anything to do with these two powers. They don't work together because flashing blade is similar to haste. Period. End of RAW.

Does FoB and Haste stack? Technically, no. As RAW, it should not. It states FoB has an extra attack. I personally see FoB as a modification of the base number of attacks, but that's not RAW. If it says, "Extra Attack" "Full attack action" and "Melee Only" then it should not stack with haste.

[Douglas]

My ruling is that the criterion for whether something is "similar to haste" is, quite simply, whether it itself includes the "does not stack with haste-like effects" clause. Besides being very simple and easy to adjudicate, this follows a very clear divide in types of effects.

Effects that state they don't stack with Haste (and similar effects):
Typically have no cost past initial activation and last for several rounds, often a full encounter or more.
Typically are pure benefit with no tradeoff.
Typically work with a wide variety of weapons or attacks, quite often with all attacks.

Effects that do not state they don't stack:
Typically last a single round and must be activated again each round (though they may not require an action to activate).
Typically involve a tradeoff, giving a penalty or consuming a resource (per round of use) to go with the bonus.
Often are restricted to a narrow category of attacks.

The divide between these characteristics, and which ones get the "doesn't stack with Haste" clause, is so consistent that it almost has to be deliberate, and in my opinion is a clear sign that the presence of the stacking clause in the ability rules text should be taken as the official word on whether an ability is considered "similar" to Haste.

[Chronos]

So, CaptnQ, are you saying that a 6th-level fighter can't benefit from Haste? Because he does, after all, get an extra attack on a full attack.

[Gemini476]

So, CaptnQ, are you saying that a 6th-level fighter can't benefit from Haste? Because he does, after all, get an extra attack on a full attack.

Don't forget Two-Weapon Fighting!

That interpretation of "similar" means that post-level 6 it's only really useful for non-TWF characters with <+6/+1 BAB. So Wizards, basically.

[TuggyNE]

That interpretation of "similar" means that post-level 6 it's only really useful for non-TWF characters with <+6/+1 BAB. So Wizards, basically.

And we're back to 3.0 haste being useful chiefly for casters?