pure unarmed monk 3.5 build?

[The Shadowdove]

Greetings forum peeps. We humbly ask for your superior knowledge and eons of experience.

I understand that there are a billion and one ways to build monk types.
However, we're only allowed to use the phb and dm1 for classes. Ironically, the feats from all books are up for grabs.

I had my fiance roll her stats and this is what she got for her monk. My eyes nearly popped out of my head. Since I've never managed a sheet without one or two -2 or -1 stats I figured we would milk it.

Str 18
Dex 16
Con14
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 11

(Running in and beating up squishies)

Race human

Str focus

So far:

1- dodge, weapon focus(unarmed), improved grapple
2- combat reflexes
3- superior unarmed strike
6- improved natural weapon, improved trip
9-mobility
12- spring attack


What kind of feats should we be looking into?
What kind of gear is there available for unarmed focused monks?

Are there more ways to improve armor, base damage, monkiness, and attack bonus?

Other advice aside from things along the lines of multiclassing?


Thanks in advance. Much appreciated!!

-Dove.

[Artillery]

I would recommend against the spring attack line of feats, its a poor choice almost every time.

I know you said you don't want any advice for multiclassing but... I would recommend doing Monastic Training for Psychic Warrior and Tashalatora. Its Monk 2/Psychic Warrior the rest. But you get to keep all the Monk stuff.

You still get your Monk-i-ness, but it gives you option to get big to win grapple etc.

You can also combine Claws of the Beast with your unarmed Strike damage using Beast Strike so can increase your damage at a rate closer to the rest of the party. Also being a Monk you have a Natural Weapon called an unarmed strike. Psychic Warrior has powers that give your Natural Weapons an enchantment bonus. Metaphysical weapon/claw.

For Equipment, Bracers of Armor(1000gp*AC^2) are good to have.
Decide if you would rather have a Monk's Belt (13000gp)or Superior Unarmed Strike, they don't stack.
Getting a Fanged Ring (10000gp) wouldn't be a bad idea. You'd have Improved Natural Attack on claws and unarmed strikes as well as doing con dmg on a crit.

[limejuicepowder]

I would recommend against the spring attack line of feats, its a poor choice almost every time.

I know you said you don't want any advice for multiclassing but... I would recommend doing Monastic Training for Psychic Warrior and Tashalatora. Its Monk 2/Psychic Warrior the rest. But you get to keep all the Monk stuff.

You still get your Monk-i-ness, but it gives you option to get big to win grapple etc.

You can also combine Claws of the Beast with your unarmed Strike damage using Beast Strike so can increase your damage at a rate closer to the rest of the party. Also being a Monk you have a Natural Weapon called an unarmed strike. Psychic Warrior has powers that give your Natural Weapons an enchantment bonus. Metaphysical weapon/claw.

For Equipment, Bracers of Armor(1000gp*AC^2) are good to have.
Decide if you would rather have a Monk's Belt (13000gp)or Superior Unarmed Strike, they don't stack.
Getting a Fanged Ring (10000gp) wouldn't be a bad idea. You'd have Improved Natural Attack on claws and unarmed strikes as well as doing con dmg on a crit.

He's limited to the core classes (PHB, DMG). Psychic Warrior is out.

[Jgosse]

I always felt versatile unarmed strike was a good monk feat.

[Callin]

Ditch the Spring Attack line. Its bad. Pick up Surperior Unarmed Strike (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/superior-unarmed-strike--2844/) and Snap Kick (http://dndtools.eu/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/snap-kick--2658/). Hidden Talent (http://dndtools.eu/feats/expanded-psionics-handbook--65/hidden-talent--1387/) could also be useful IF psionics are not outright banned.

[Particle_Man]

There is the Ability Focus feat in Monster Manual if you are allowed feats from there and want to increase the DC of the monk's stunning attack by two.

If you do spring attack, recognize that it does not combine with flurry. It has uses if you want to keep your monk from getting hit, or want your enemies to come to you (like, you spring attack the enemy and give a spiderman level taunting quip, the enraged enemy charges you, then you unleash the flurry on the enemy).

[Callin]

So yea I need to comprehend my reading better... Need to stop making suggestions that the OP already has. /sheesh

[Jgosse]

Is your Dm flexible with alignment restrictions? grad a level of barbarian with pounce and whirling frenzy.

[Fightmaster]

You could pick the passive way variant which nets you combat expertise and improved trip for free. Then take knock down. I would ditch stunning fist, it scales poorly and for all the work it takes to improve you could get something better

[Fightmaster]

Whoops, misread that. You don't have stunning fist :smallredface:

[Ruethgar]

The whirling frenzy variant is not in core nor is a feat. In the OP Superior Unarmed Strike cannot be taken at 3rd as a monk.

If you are allowed ACFs from anywhere like you are with feats. City Brawler Dashing Step Spirit Lion Totem Barbarians are ok at unarmed, throw in two levels of Kensai Fighter(Ward Cestus) and you can get a free feat, an enchantable fist, and the equivalent of weapon focus and weapon specialization on your unarmed attacks. You also have the 3 BAB needed to take Superior Unarmed Strike at level 3, but you have also lost three levels making it only a net +1. I would use Martial Chaos Monk instead of Monk just to have more options and not conflict with the Barbarian alignment.

Without multiclassing and ACFs, I don't know much in the way of feats that would really help. Sigrun Kobolds get +1 hit and damage with unarmed. Shape Soulmeld is always nice for the Chaos Roc Span, two free attacks even if non-lethal. Becoming a grappler or a power attacker are decent paths and I'm sure you can find builds or handbooks that could help with that.

[Artillery]

Are you able to take Alternate Class Features?

Invisible Fist replaces evasion at lvl 2 with 1 round Greater Invisibility, it takes 3 rounds to recharge.

At lvl 9 it replaces improved evasion with Blink that lasts for wisdom mod rounds, also taking 3 rounds to recharge. Its very useful in a number of builds.

Depending on level replacing Flurry of Blows with Decisive Strike might also be good. If you won't reach level 9 its good. It also pairs with Snap kick and works on attacks of oppurtunity. Its still a full round action though.

[Rubik]

Try to use as much of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) as you can. Note the alternative class features, feats, and (most importantly) magic items.

[shylocke]

If you don't mind being super good and not using magic items, taken the vow of poverty from exalted deeds. 2d6dex DMG on strike. Bonus ac. Bonus feats. Bonus stat increases. Its all good.

[Mithril Leaf]

Is that human race a fixed deal? Also if not, can you take outside races?

[Rubik]

If you don't mind being super good and not using magic items, taken the vow of poverty from exalted deeds. 2d6dex DMG on strike. Bonus ac. Bonus feats. Bonus stat increases. Its all good.This has got to be the worst advice anyone ever gives on monks. Never ever ever ever ever take VoP on a monk, unless you follow it with 18+ levels of druid (or another T1 or T2 class) or your campaign gives out no magic items whatsoever, in which case, you shouldn't take monk at all.

[Particle_Man]

6- improved natural weapon

Check with your DM as to whether this feat applies to your unarmed strikes, as different DMs rule this in different ways.

How married is she to human, btw? There are interesting alternate races even in core.

[Gnaeus]

ToB feats will help. Martial study for a prereq, then Martial Stance. Shadow Blade Technique + assassins stance is good, or Crusaders strike and martial spirit.

[shylocke]

This has got to be the worst advice anyone ever gives on monks. Never ever ever ever ever take VoP on a monk, unless you follow it with 18+ levels of druid (or another T1 or T2 class) or your campaign gives out no magic items whatsoever, in which case, you shouldn't take monk at all.

I make characters for roleplay not optimization.

[Rubik]

I make characters for roleplay not optimization.I imagine roleplaying a useless lump isn't what most people would consider "fun."

[Bovine Colonel]

I make characters for roleplay not optimization.

The OP asked for optimization advice, not roleplay advice.

[shylocke]

I'm just throwing out suggestions that can be used for whatever. All depends on what he is fighting or style of monk he wants.

[Urpriest]

Check with your DM as to whether this feat applies to your unarmed strikes, as different DMs rule this in different ways.


Eh, not these days. It's been pretty clear that it applies for about a decade now, and folks who don't follow that sort of thing don't generally have the rules-confidence to DM 3.5.

The whole "feats from every book, classes from only PHB and DMG" thing is just confusing. What are the rulings on every other game mechanic? ACFs are the main one, but basically everything else is relevant.

How dedicated are you to single-classes Monk? If you can get ACFs indiscriminately, Barbarian often makes a better "Monk", and even without ACFs and PrC access Druid and Cleric can do some of this stuff.

If you are dedicated to single-classed Monk, how do you feel about dipping? Since Monks really like to get to use Flurry of Blows, consider a Cleric dip for Travel Devotion.

Edit: You could also just take Travel Devotion as a feat, but you'd only get to use it once per day. I'd look very hard for a way to get free movement.

[Galdor Miriel]

This has got to be the worst advice anyone ever gives on monks. Never ever ever ever ever take VoP on a monk, unless you follow it with 18+ levels of druid (or another T1 or T2 class) or your campaign gives out no magic items whatsoever, in which case, you shouldn't take monk at all.

VOP depends entirely upon the dm, their style, and how they let magic items work. VOP is a fun option that has a whole bunch of role play built in to it which makes it more fun and can be super powered or weak depending on the campaign and monsters and party.

Also it is not core, so utterly irrelevant to you!

[shylocke]

Also nowhere in the creators post does it say optimize. Ever used poverty? Getting mistaken for a hobo by the big evil dude is hilarious. Also no eating/breathing or alignment detection. Magic fists. The only lump of useless I ever encountered was the necromancer after I abundant stepped behind him

[Eldonauran]

Core only classes, but everything else is ok?

Hmm, well. Depending on how many feats you can spare...

Shape Soulmeld: Mauling Gauntlets
Open Least Chakra (hands)
Bonus Essentia
Midnight Dodge (If your DM can be convinced to let you take in place of dodge)

What those will get you is at least a +2 morale bonus to unarmed damage (when bound), +2 more for each essentia invested (max of 4 at higher levels). So, you can get a max of +10 morale bonus to damage with each attack. Even if the Soulmeld isn't bound, you still get the +2 morale bonus to any strength based check you make (like bull rush, overrun. Not skills). Great for breaking down doors with your bare hands.

If you pick the Azurin race, you get 1 essentia, Midnight Dodge gets you one more and bonus essentia will get you 2. You can dump the unused essentia into midnight dodge until you can invest all of it into the Mauling Gauntlets.

[Rubik]

Also nowhere in the creators post does it say optimize.Um... You didn't read the entire post, did you. He asked for advice on building his character effectively. That's the very definition of optimizing.

[shylocke]

Then technically choosing any build that has feats a monk can actually use is optimization.

[Rubik]

Then technically choosing any build that has feats a monk can actually use is optimization.If they're better than the worst there is, sure, but VoP is widely considered one of the worst feats for a monk to take, except in rather extreme circumstances (which I pointed out above).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Getting mistaken for a hobo by the big evil dude is hilarious.

Well, every adventurer is a hobo by default anyway. And you can pull that off with a VoP Druid who has a riding dog (riding gear not necessary) as his companion.

You can say whatever you want about DMs allowing you to be useful and "roleplay", but that reeks of Stormwind and Oberoni Fallacies.

[The Trickster]

Are you going to level 20 with this monk? Superior Unarmed Strike become a wasted feat by level 16, so I would remove that.

I know that feats are allowed fron other books, so maybe Martial study from ToB.

What kind of game is this? High magic? High wealth?

[The Shadowdove]

Are you able to take Alternate Class Features?

Invisible Fist replaces evasion at lvl 2 with 1 round Greater Invisibility, it takes 3 rounds to recharge.

At lvl 9 it replaces improved evasion with Blink that lasts for wisdom mod rounds, also taking 3 rounds to recharge. Its very useful in a number of builds.

Depending on level replacing Flurry of Blows with Decisive Strike might also be good. If you won't reach level 9 its good. It also pairs with Snap kick and works on attacks of oppurtunity. Its still a full round action though.

Wow! Thanks for the advice everyone. I didn't expect so much input so fast.

Artillery. Do you have a link to these features? And where do they come from? Also, is swapping out features a common practice...

Purplenurple: it will definitely be high magic. Our dm likes overdramatic bosses with special abilities or goofy caster concepts. I'm sure wealth will come from killing baddies now or later. For now, we're lvl ones and twos punching out kobolds and orcs and gnolls and basic undead.

She may also be interested in other races. It's her second time playing, so something relatively humanoid and pretty.

To everyone who suggested other classes.

Sorry, we're not multiclassing one bit. Horrible, I know. But I think it is also a fun idea after all of the goofy character messes we've played.

To everyone who says spring attack is not too effective.

(1)What is a good replacement? Do I take out dodge/mobility too?

(2)Should we also skip improved grapple and trip?

(3)What's knockdown? Is it badass?

(4)Does stunning attack suck as bad as is sounds? The idea is pretty cool.

(5)How do we best take advantage of unarmed damage and attacks per round? Is snap kick a viable thing, how to use?

Our main goal is to smash **** with our body. Let's break stuff like a handicap on roids! Because monk only class is about that limiting!

Thanks again in advance,
-dove

[shylocke]

Knock down is awesome. If you deal at least 10 DMG in a single hit, you get a free trip attack. Couple that with large and in charge on a large character and you got one half of a tennis match.

[Artillery]

Wow! Thanks for the advice everyone. I didn't expect so much input so fast.

Artillery. Do you have a link to these features? And where do they come from? Also, is swapping out features a common practice...

Purplenurple: it will definitely be high magic. Our dm likes overdramatic bosses with special abilities or goofy caster concepts. I'm sure wealth will come from killing baddies now or later. For now, we're lvl ones and twos punching out kobolds and orcs and gnolls and basic undead.

She may also be interested in other races. It's her second time playing, so something relatively humanoid and pretty.

To everyone who suggested other classes.

Sorry, we're not multiclassing one bit. Horrible, I know. But I think it is also a fun idea after all of the goofy character messes we've played.

To everyone who says spring attack is not too effective.

(1)What is a good replacement? Do I take out dodge/mobility too?

(2)Should we also skip improved grapple and trip?

(3)What's knockdown? Is it badass?

(4)Does stunning attack suck as bad as is sounds? The idea is pretty cool.

(5)How do we best take advantage of unarmed damage and attacks per round? Is snap kick a viable thing, how to use?

Our main goal is to smash **** with our body. Let's break stuff like a handicap on roids! Because monk only class is about that limiting!

Thanks again in advance,
-dove

Invisible fist is from the book Exemplars of Evil pg 21. Use of Alternate class features is pretty common in most of the games I play.

Knockdown is a feat that gives you a free trip attempt whenever you do 10dmg or more. It pairs up well with improved trip. You get to often make trip attempts without wasting an attack not doing dmg. Other good choice to look at

Snap Kick works well, its an easy way to get an extra attacks and works on standard action attacks and AoO.

Knockback is also a nice feat that gives you area control for no action cost, but you need powerful build or large size for it so you can't get it as a human.

[kirerellim]

I advise.. don't lol.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are the major 'replacements' for monk. IE, the 'Monk 2.0' classes. What happened was that WotC realized that Monk was hilariously bad (seriously, it's in the running for one of the worst player character classes in the game), and made direct replacements to it. Are any of these interesting to you?

1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. This is the most obvious Monk 2.0. Go take a look at it; the Unarmed bit is an Adaptation of the monk, and it does everything the monk wanted to do.

2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior. What you do with this is take a level or 2 of Monk, the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, and go into Psychic Warrior from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the System Resource Document and never look back. Instead of Psychic Warrior, Ardent (from Complete Psionics) can work well, too.

3.) (Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement]) Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana; if you get this, consider getting things like Knock-down [System Resource Document] or other trip-based options) Barbarian. Those are the core changes and acf's of the barbarian class to make it more monk-like. Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement), City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349), Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement). Fist of the Forest is a good Prestige Class as well (Complete Champion). I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high, or you can't afford the monk's belt yet), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, which also gives precedent for 'improved natural attack (unarmed strike)' being a thing). In fact, any of these builds could maybe use those items!

4.) Monk 2/Mystic/Sacred Fist. This monk build uses a divine class, and the 'text over table' rule to get full casting for the Sacred Fist prestige class in complete divine. It works okay with Cleric, great with the Mystic class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (choose a strong melee domain or devotion [complete champion!]), and pretty good with Favored Soul from Complete Divine. Don't take more than 2 levels of Monk. Focus on long-duration self-buffs.

5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks, or before them. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Only works as 'powerful' once you get Wild Shape, and if you use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape (Pearls of Speech work), and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps, or taking it off and putting it on after you shape).

As far as your questions... yea, spring attack, dodge, mobility, etc. are super bad. Just max your tumble ranks and tumble around. Grapple is only good if you have a way of increasing your size, like psychic warrior. Improved trip is... okay, if you have very high strength and knock-down. Stunning fist does suck, yes. And to do lots of attacks per round, you will generally need pounce, unless you plan on wading into combat and standing still. FYI, flurry is generally a bad idea.

In order to figure out WHY the Monk is bad, you should compare this:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

With the monk as written. Do so side by side.

[lord_khaine]

A few nice tricks i have picked up from playing a lot of pure monks in my younger days.

1. Potions of enlarge is stupidly cheap for how effectiv they are, grab a barrelfull of them, and go to town with large drunken fighting.

2. improved grapple is very good if you mainly fight humanoid opponents, size increases is mainly needed in case you are fighting larger monsters, but else not a must.

3. pick up a spiked chain and combat reflexes. Exotic weapon proficiency is for people with spare feats, but the touch attack for a trip with the chain will often hit anyway, and its not like your doing anything more important with your hands.

For the first levels i would recomend taking Stunning fist as your bonus feat, and improved grapple as your regular level 1 feat.
Then considder carefully the Touch of golder ice feat from book of exalted deeds.

Considder martrial study and martrial stance to pick up a maneuver and a stance from tome of battle.

[Lord Raziere]

I imagine roleplaying a useless lump isn't what most people would consider "fun."

I imagine roleplaying a meaningless pile of numbers isn't what most people consider fun either.

oh but you say Stormwind Fallacy, well here is the thing: it works both ways. Just because something is NOT optimal doesn't mean it isn't fun or effective.

please stop passive-aggressively insulting roleplayers like this by implying that everything we make is useless. Thank you. :smallannoyed:

[The Trickster]

-snip-

The OP said no multiclassing, and PHB/DMG only.

I would consider a tripping build. Knockdown, combat expertise, and improved trip can be fun. Smack 'em once, knock 'em down, smack 'em again when they get back up. Consider PH2 Decisive Strike, and maybe Karmic Strike (I can't remember where that feat is from). If you are allowed, Broken feat mastery is great (although you need Dirty fighting as a prerequisite). If not, perhaps a large monsterous race could be beneficial.

[Rubik]

I imagine roleplaying a meaningless pile of numbers isn't what most people consider fun either.

oh but you say Stormwind Fallacy, well here is the thing: it works both ways. Just because something is NOT optimal doesn't mean it isn't fun or effective.

please stop passive-aggressively insulting roleplayers like this by implying that everything we make is useless. Thank you. :smallannoyed:Monks who aren't optimized all to hell are bad at doing everything mechanical-wise, aside from making saving throws. Everything even remotely useful a monk can do is done considerably better by a barbarian, including unarmed combat.

I'm all for roleplaying, but a decently useful class can be roleplayed just as well as a monk, so stop committing the fallacy you yourself name-dropped. After all, taking a class that grants no real in-game options of any worth certainly doesn't make the game more fun to play. Otherwise, you might as well be playing a non-chicken commoner with a skillful gauntlet and boots of skating.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, PHB/DMG only, if I wanted to make an unarmed combatant without multiclassing, I'd make a Druid, or possibly a Barbarian that uses a spiked gauntlet or a gauntlet or improved unarmed strike. I wouldn't use a Monk.

[shylocke]

Monks who aren't optimized all to hell are bad at doing everything mechanical-wise, aside from making saving throws. Everything even remotely useful a monk can do is done considerably better by a barbarian, including unarmed combat.

I'm all for roleplaying, but a decently useful class can be roleplayed just as well as a monk, so stop committing the fallacy you yourself name-dropped. After all, taking a class that grants no real in-game options of any worth certainly doesn't make the game more fun to play. Otherwise, you might as well be playing a non-chicken commoner with a skillful gauntlet and boots of skating.

.Your forgetting that you're the one that starting this when I suggested some options that I found fun and effective in the campaign that character was in. The OP is asking for suggestions in his post.

[Rubik]

.Your forgetting that you're the one that starting this when I suggested some options that I found fun and effective in the campaign that character was in. The OP is asking for suggestions in his post.Right, and I warned him off, because a VoP monk is a terrible thing to inflict on someone asking for an effective character.

[Hiro Protagonest]

.Your forgetting that you're the one that starting this when I suggested some options that I found fun and effective in the campaign that character was in. The OP is asking for suggestions in his post.

"and effective" no. What you used as evidence that it was "effective" relied heavily on the GM. That is a crutch, a crutch that others may not have.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm all for roleplaying, but a decently useful class can be roleplayed just as well as a monk, so stop committing the fallacy you yourself name-dropped. After all, taking a class that grants no real in-game options of any worth certainly doesn't make the game more fun to play. Otherwise, you might as well be playing a non-chicken commoner with a skillful gauntlet and boots of skating.

you completely missed the point of my post. I'm not saying he can't roleplay it just as well. I'm calling out on your passive-aggressive implication that just because it doesn't conform to your high standards, that its completely ineffective.
sure you may both roleplay well and optimize well, but that doesn't give you any right to say they way that you do so is inherently better way to play. sure you can go ahead and recommend that he play a barbarian or whatever- but don't say that your way is inherently better than other forms of roleplaying.

[Urpriest]

Single-classed Monk is a bad choice, but single-classed Monk with access to non-core "everything except classes" is probably viable (again, not the best choice by a longshot, but I don't think it's impossible to make the character effective, especially with ACFs).

Of course, single-classed Monk with access to "all books for feats" suggests that the DM doesn't understand that books have things that aren't classes and feats in them, which is completely unviable.

[Ruethgar]

3.) (Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement]) Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana; if you get this, consider getting things like Knock-down [System Resource Document] or other trip-based options) Barbarian. Those are the core changes and acf's of the barbarian class to make it more monk-like. Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement), City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349), Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement). Fist of the Forest is a good Prestige Class as well (Complete Champion). I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high, or you can't afford the monk's belt yet), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, which also gives precedent for 'improved natural attack (unarmed strike)' being a thing). In fact, any of these builds could maybe use those items!

I would suggest the barbarian over monk for unarmed combat as seen above.

[Juntao112]

I imagine roleplaying a meaningless pile of numbers isn't what most people consider fun either.


Guess what? A monk with VOP is still a meaningless pile of numbers, just one that happens to have worse numbers.

Gamers roleplay. Characters are all numbers on a sheet.

[Lord Raziere]

Guess what? A monk with VOP is still a meaningless pile of numbers, just one that happens to have worse numbers.

Gamers roleplay. Characters are all numbers on a sheet.

yes, but that doesn't mean that they are ineffective numbers that can't do anything. it just means that they are numbers you don't like.

[Rubik]

yes, but that doesn't mean that they are ineffective numbers that can't do anything. it just means that they are numbers you don't like.There are very, very few things weaker than a VoP monk, honestly. Even a regular monk is incredibly difficult to turn into something useful (note that it's widely considered one of the weakest non-NPC classes in the game, and is, in fact, quite a bit weaker than some of those), and VoP castrates most of the WBLmancy that lets a monk contribute meaningfully, hamstringing it even further.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, some NPC classes are no joke. A Religious Adept is a solid class, for example, that can contribute quite well in many PC parties.

[Juntao112]

yes, but that doesn't mean that they are ineffective numbers that can't do anything. it just means that they are numbers you don't like.

I don't like them when they can't do that thing I want them to do. Like attack flying enemies, for example.

[Rubik]

I don't like them when they can't do that thing I want them to do. Like attack flying enemies, for example.Or effectively contribute to anything like standard CR-appropriate encounters. (And no, retreating strategically doesn't count.)

[Lord Raziere]

There are very, very few things weaker than a VoP monk, honestly. Even a regular monk is incredibly difficult to turn into something useful (note that it's widely considered one of the weakest non-NPC classes in the game, and is, in fact, quite a bit weaker than some of those), and VoP castrates most of the WBLmancy that lets a monk contribute meaningfully, hamstringing it even further.

yes, the OP wants an optimal thing, I'm not arguing that, go ahead and make whatever build you can.

but consider this: in one situation, the number one is bad, such a critical failure roll. in another situation, the number one is good because you got first place. numbers may be objective, the but what people value about them is not. furthermore, some have a different definition of success than you. Some might say they play a weak class specifically to die and tell the tale of one tragic character that while stout of heart and friendly of mind, was sadly killed because of his failings, and call that success, unlikely yes I know, especially in DnD, but its still a possibility.

not everyone's definition of "win" or "effective" is the same as yours. I have played a CHA 14 Tiefling, a elf rogue/sorcerer multi-class in the same game as someone who played a monk, and came out fine both times. "there are more things in this world Horatio, than was dreamt in your philosophy." just because we "real" roleplayers or whatever, don't squeeze every point we can out of the build doesn't mean we are useless or that you are entitled to passively-agressively look down upon us just because you are better at some tricks of math in an imaginary game.

I mean whoohoo, you know how pun-pun works, I'm so glad that I have to worry about some guy who knows the game's mechanic's so much better than me that he might break it over his leg anytime he feels like it, and I wouldn't know about it until its too late, congratulations on figuring out how to make game-disrupting tricks.

[Juntao112]

Some might say they play a weak class specifically to die and tell the tale of one tragic character that while stout of heart and friendly of mind, was sadly killed because of his failings, and call that success, unlikely yes I know, especially in DnD, but its still a possibility.



I mean whoohoo, you know how pun-pun works, I'm so glad that I have to worry about some guy who knows the game's mechanic's so much better than me that he might break it over his leg anytime he feels like it, and I wouldn't know about it until its too late, congratulations on figuring out how to make game-disrupting tricks.
I would imagine that a player whose character's melodramatic death brings down his entire party is as disruptive to the game as someone who makes Pun-Pun.

[Lord Raziere]

I would imagine that a player whose character's melodramatic death results in a TKP is as disruptive to the game as someone who makes Pun-Pun.

True, but at least one can talk with the DM about it beforehand to make sure the death is all just as planned and then turn it into something fun for everyone, without anyone else needing to intervene.

with something like optimization, you get something like this thread, where everyone must be on board with it and the one guy who isn't, has to ask. whereas if only one guy is using a gamebreaking trick, thats his fault.

[Juntao112]

True, but at least one can talk with the DM about it beforehand to make sure the death is all just as planned and then turn it into something fun for everyone, without anyone else needing to intervene.
Requiring the DM make a change to his story about four epic heroes going off to save the world to satisfy your personal need to have a woeful death scene may be good roleplaying, but it is poor manners.


with something like optimization, you get something like this thread, where everyone must be on board with it and the one guy who isn't, has to ask. whereas if only one guy is using a gamebreaking trick, thats his fault.
Avoiding bad choices when building characters is now gamebreaking?

[Lord Raziere]

Requiring the DM make a change to his story about four epic heroes going off to save the world to satisfy your personal need to have a woeful death scene may be good roleplaying, but it is poor manners.


Avoiding bad choices when building characters is now gamebreaking?

"Ok he dies in the final explosion of the climactic battle" DONE! that was easy.

gamebreaking is a bad choice. you make something like Pun-Pun, or a batman wizard where you solve everything with magic, is breaking the game and forcing it to go in a different direction by solving all your problems too easily. Sure, you might be a good roleplayer, but instantly solving all your problems is boring no matter what kind of roleplayer you are.

not that there is anything wrong with the OP wanting a build that is effective from your knowledge, go ahead, keep giving him your advice, I don't care about that.

what I care about, is not putting up with not only optimizers (who I fully know are not gamebreaking munchkins) passive-aggressively implying that real roleplayers are useless, but then implying that we only make bad decisions all the time because we don't fit their builds exactly.

[Juntao112]

"Ok he dies in the final explosion of the climactic battle" DONE! that was easy.
So easy, in fact, as to render the poignancy and impact of the character's death meaningless. The schtick where you play a character out of his league who dies a tragic death because of it only has resonance because he risks death at any moment; if you remove that specter of failure, there's nothing compelling about him.

I would venture to call this bad roleplaying.


gamebreaking is a bad choice. you make something like Pun-Pun, or a batman wizard where you solve everything with magic, is breaking the game and forcing it to go in a different direction by solving all your problems too easily. Sure, you might be a good roleplayer, but instantly solving all your problems is boring no matter what kind of roleplayer you are.
I suppose you would also think that Superman is a boring character. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnokGcoUOmE)


what I care about, is not putting up with not only optimizers (who I fully know are not gamebreaking munchkins) passive-aggressively implying that real roleplayers are useless, but then implying that we only make bad decisions all the time because we don't fit their builds exactly.
What is, then, a true roleplayer?

[Lord Raziere]

So easy, in fact, as to render the poignancy and impact of the character's death meaningless. The schtick where you play a character out of his class and dies a tragic death because of it only has resonance because he can die at any moment; if you remove that specter of failure, there's nothing compelling about him.


I suppose you would also think that Superman is a boring character. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnokGcoUOmE)


What is, then, a true roleplayer?

1. whose side are you on?

2. Yes, yes he is.

3. I think you should know better than to ask what is a "true" roleplayer.

[Rubik]

What is, then, a true roleplayer?Obviously it's someone who enjoys playing nigh-useless characters like VoP monks.

Seven heavens forbid that anyone actually enjoy the G in the RPG.

[Juntao112]

1. whose side are you on?
Truth, Justice, and the American Way.

Oh, and address the point, which was that having a scripted death is emotionally void and bad roleplaying.


2. Yes, yes he is.
I would disagree, because in the scope of his narrative, Superman is more powerful than the average person, but there are still many challenges, both ethical and physical, that test him.

Superman stories aren't about stopping street crime, they're about moral dilemmas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_(comics)) or crises of galactic proportions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwU0QkcrNVQ).

It is a question of scale.


3. I think you should know better than to ask what is a "true" roleplayer.
I am merely interested in your definition, since you seem to have one.

[Lord Raziere]

Obviously it's someone who enjoys playing nigh-useless characters like VoP monks.

Seven heavens forbid that anyone actually enjoy the G in the RPG.

there is no such thing a true roleplayer. I was merely referring to a widely known archetype among roleplayers.

you are free to do so, but please, don't act as if the G is greater than the R and the P.

[Keldrin]

This has got to be the worst advice anyone ever gives on monks. Never ever ever ever ever take VoP on a monk, unless you follow it with 18+ levels of druid (or another T1 or T2 class) or your campaign gives out no magic items whatsoever, in which case, you shouldn't take monk at all.

I know I'm going against all common knowledge, BUT.

I have played a straight monk with VoP until 9th level. The rest of the party was across the board optimization skill wise. It's been years now, and I didn't know any better ;).

I had fun with the fluff/rp, and the freedom from magic items ( oh my gods, the freedom from bookeeping and gp scrabbling was FANTASTIC).

Plus, I kicked ass. Several times grappling with Touch of Golden Ice took down several encounters, our party wasn't getting through other ways.



I'm sure things would have gone downhill as time went on, and the first few levels were a lot of in town enounters. But sometimes going the wrong way, as long as your DM and party are okay with it ,can be fun.

edit. and this post has suddenly made me a "halfling in the playground". neat.

[The Trickster]

gamebreaking is a bad choice. you make something like Pun-Pun, or a batman wizard where you solve everything with magic, is breaking the game and forcing it to go in a different direction by solving all your problems too easily. Sure, you might be a good roleplayer, but instantly solving all your problems is boring no matter what kind of roleplayer you are.

Saying that VoP on a monk is a bad idea mechanically is not that same as someone making Pun-Pun.

There are many different kinds of optimization. Theoretical optimization is picking the best abilities in order to make the most powerful option possible, regardless of the RP or story structure (like Pun-Pun). Usually, this type of optimization is not seen in games at all. Practical optimization picking abilities that allow your character to be relatively successful at his or her job, while still allowing RP.

Rubik was offering practical optimization advice, as the OP asked, stating that VoP on a pure monk in a high magic(ish) game would be a poor decision. If the OP wants to RP a poor monk, there are houserule ways to do it. (A friend of mine had a game, in which his character was poor, but was given "powers" that allowed him to do things a normal monk could not do normally, like fly. Mechanically, he was given magic items WBL, buy he did not
own the items, just their effects). VoP, mechanically, can cause issues with a pure monk build. That is why it was mentioned as a bad choice.

Also, "going in a different direction" with a game doesn't have to be bad. Perhaps stronger characters = stronger villians = more dynamic battles = epic story.


not that there is anything wrong with the OP wanting a build that is effective from your knowledge, go ahead, keep giving him your advice, I don't care about that.

what I care about, is not putting up with not only optimizers (who I fully know are not gamebreaking munchkins) passive-aggressively implying that real roleplayers are useless, but then implying that we only make bad decisions all the time because we don't fit their builds exactly.

Real role players? Hmmm I know you mentioned this before, but this kinda bothered me. I think Mr. Stormwind would like a word with you.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not saying that optimization is bad or that you cannot do it or that I'm even against it. :smallannoyed:

What I'm against is you using it as an excuse to talk down to me as if I don't know anything and be passive-aggressive about what you think of- I'm clearly using the wrong term here "real roleplayers" is clearly sounding too elitist- thespians? flavor-focused roleplayers? method actor? storyteller? those kinds of roleplayers. as if I'm a child who needs basic things explained to him or constant passive-aggressive insults that imply that I make useless characters and make only bad choices. it is getting irritating. especially when you keep referencing back stormwind fallacy to wave away any protests as me being anti-optimizer who is committing said fallacy, when my argument is not that optimizers cannot roleplay. my argument is that optimizers are implying that non-optimizers are useless and bad decision makers just because they don't adhere to the optimizers viewpoint.

and worse you keep ignoring that in favor of going "oh just another stormwind fallacy maker". Sure, you guys are smart enough to know better than to break the game, sure you guys mostly do only theoretical stuff, I get that, but it still doesn't engender confidence when you have all this mechanical knowledge of how things work and all you do with it is exploit it rather than try to fix the system for the better. it doesn't engender confidence when you call someone who is just trying to have fun in their own way as making something useless just because they don't know as much as you or what the logical conclusion of all this is. and it really does not engender confidence when you basically give celebrity status to gamebreaking things as if they are things to live up to rather than horrible, horrible broken flaws that need to be repaired so that the game works right. Because I'm pretty sure that at this point, you guys know the mechanics better than the designers.

Which makes me confused why you spend all that on complicated builds I couldn't even begin to wrap my head around and acting as if I'm stupid and useless because of it. :smallconfused:

[Juntao112]

I think the problem is that, judging by your posts in this thread, you do not understand good roleplaying either.

Remember this exchange from page 2?


Some might say they play a weak class specifically to die and tell the tale of one tragic character that while stout of heart and friendly of mind, was sadly killed because of his failings, and call that success, unlikely yes I know, especially in DnD, but its still a possibility.


I would imagine that a player whose character's melodramatic death brings down his entire party is as disruptive to the game as someone who makes Pun-Pun.


True, but at least one can talk with the DM about it beforehand to make sure the death is all just as planned and then turn it into something fun for everyone, without anyone else needing to intervene.



Requiring the DM make a change to his story about four epic heroes going off to save the world to satisfy your personal need to have a woeful death scene may be good roleplaying, but it is poor manners.


"Ok he dies in the final explosion of the climactic battle" DONE! that was easy.


So easy, in fact, as to render the poignancy and impact of the character's death meaningless. The schtick where you play a character out of his league who dies a tragic death because of it only has resonance because he risks death at any moment; if you remove that specter of failure, there's nothing compelling about him.

I would venture to call this bad roleplaying.


1. whose side are you on?

Your response to my criticism was to question whose side I was on, which neatly avoided addressing the issue of how the weak character whose purpose was to die a tragic death was good roleplaying. Or of how arranging to have his death occur by DM fiat at the end of the game was good roleplaying, since it then robs the game of any tension when the end predetermined. (Yes, your character is unsuited for the epic task of saving the world, but he won't be killed off in a battle with demons halfway through the campaign. Dissonance much?)

In addition, you also mentioned that you considered a powerful character like Superman is boring, which is a little odd considering that Superman is challenged by beings more powerful than he is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwU0QkcrNVQ), or by moral dilemmas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_Come_(comics)). The question of whether Superman's ideals can triumph in a world where evil exists and can be more powerful than good makes these conflicts interesting.

Simply put, the opinion that powerful characters are boring does not take into account the fact that they can receive more difficult tasks or problems that cannot be solved by force.

As long as a character can still be challenged by the narrative, he cannot be boring. Now, a character for whom the narrative bends over backward to cater to is boring. Can you think of any examples of that sort of character?

[Lord Raziere]

I do not see powerful characters in general as boring, only Superman in specific.

[Eloel]

Just play your VoP Monk, and let the rest of us play Druid with an animal companion at least as strong as you unbuffed. Not worth the fight, really.

[Juntao112]

I do not see powerful characters in general as boring, only Superman in specific.

And as for part 1?

[Lord Raziere]

And as for part 1?

there is a part 1?

[Juntao112]

The part where I pointed out that playing a weak character whose purpose is to die tragically is a terrible?

[Lord Raziere]

would it make any difference if they were a strong character whose purpose is to die tragically?

[Juntao112]

would it make any difference if they were a strong character whose purpose is to die tragically?

At least with a strong character, you could justify his participation in some epic quest and survival until the end.

[Lord Raziere]

At least with a strong character, you could justify his participation in some epic quest and survival until the end.

so, what are you saying, that only high-power characters can be allowed to be played in DnD 3.5?

should not then, the lower tier classes be upgraded to fix this?

[Rubik]

so, what are you saying, that only high-power characters can be allowed to be played in DnD 3.5?

should not then, the lower tier classes be upgraded to fix this?Reasonably competent characters should be played in D&D, since anyone who isn't has no business in the adventuring business.

[Juntao112]

so, what are you saying, that only high-power characters can be allowed to be played in DnD 3.5?

should not then, the lower tier classes be upgraded to fix this?

Did I say that?

Creating a weak character whose purpose is to die in at team game about going places and fighting things is bad roleplaying because you will then either have someone who by all right should not be there or survive doing so - whether that survives the suspension of disbelief is, I suppose, up to the individual - or not, in which case the result can be a party wipe, which seems inconsiderate to the other players, who where presumably there to kill kobolds and loot their lairs rather than die for the sake of satisfying someone else's need for melodrama.

Like it or not, the players in a game of Dungeons and Dragons will be faced with certain mechanical challenges, like a monsterous flying lizard capable of breathing fire and strafing a town into ashes. If you are unable to contribute to resolving such issues, then what are you doing there in the first place?

[Lord Raziere]

so should the lower tier classes be upgraded to help others play the concepts they want at the same level or are we going to ignore that?

[Juntao112]

so should the lower tier classes be upgraded to help others play the concepts they want at the same level or are we going to ignore that?

What we are going to ignore is your attempt at shifting goalposts.

[Lord Raziere]

What we are going to ignore is your attempt at shifting goalposts.

So you work hard to figure out the system, how each and every tier is effective at what level, what each class can do and how to break all of that, as well as what class will beat another one when pitted against one another as well as how they all work in a group and how to make all that the most effective group possible to play the game as efficiently and powerfully as possible...

...yet when it comes to actually fixing all the flaws of the system you know so much about, suddenly its too much work.

right. got it.

[Juntao112]

So you work hard to figure out the system, how each and every tier is effective at what level, what each class can do and how to break all of that, as well as what class will beat another one when pitted against one another as well as how they all work in a group and how to make all that the most effective group possible to play the game as efficiently and powerfully as possible...
Me, personally? No, I have not.


...yet when it comes to actually fixing all the flaws of the system you know so much about, suddenly its too much work.

right. got it.
Your question about fixes came very abruptly and evasively at the end of a conversation which you made many efforts to avoid, and now you seem to act as if I have some sort of obligation to address your tangent, which, needless to say, I do not.

If you behaved as if you were willing to have an actual conversation by addressing points that I brought up in a reasonable manner instead of dodging questions, I would be glad to share with you my opinions on how to improve D&D.

Got it?

[Lord Raziere]

Nope.

I already seen what I've needed to know. Bye.

[Xerlith]

Back to business:

You may want to take Travel Devotion - it's a great way to be able to move up to your speed and still flurry..
There are some ways you can get Turn Undead to fuel them, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

Alternatively the Invisible Fist and Decisive Strike variants may work wonders on the build. Martial Monk can open up some high-level Fighter feats quickly.

You know, the best way for this concept to work would be just asking the DM pretty to be able to use Unarmed Swordsage instead of monk, but... Well.

Stack the build on Martial Maneuver/Stance feats. They'll come in handy to improve versatility.

Arguably, the best way of using those feats would be taking Iron Heart Surge and ending the Monk class as a "debiliating effect", but I think your DM may be reluctant to that. :smallbiggrin:

[plastickle]

so should the lower tier classes be upgraded to help others play the concepts they want at the same level or are we going to ignore that?
I think there is plenty of room for weak player characters in DnD. I even think it is fine to play characters of wildly lower capabilities than the rest of the party. Sometimes you want to play Gandalf, sometimes you want to play Samwise. The story will work itself out just fine regardless of the party makeup.

If you want to play a VoP monk, by all means, do so! Just realize that such a decision has consequences, such as high risk of character death and moderate risk that your much more powerful companions might occasionally leave you behind because you'd a combat liability against the Balrog.

But while I sympathize with this point you are trying to make, I think you have an incorrect sense of your role in this thread so far. shylocke was the one who brought up roleplaying out of nowhere. He was the one who implied it was mutually exclusive with optimization. No one would have been discussing it if he hadn't made it an issue. Rubik only used the word "roleplaying" to respond to shylocke's attitude.

If you were at all objective about denouncing passive-aggressive behaviour and accusations about "how to play the game", you would have corrected shylocke. Instead, when Rubik did exactly that, you jumped all over Rubik. You've been taking offense at insults that just aren't there.

[HammeredWharf]

You may want to take Knowledge Devotion - it's a great way to be able to move up to your speed and still flurry..
There are some ways you can get Turn Undead to fuel them, but I can't remember them off the top of my head.

Small correction: Travel Devotion. There's plenty of ways to get turning attempts, but I can't think of any that would work without multiclassing. You can take Travel Devotion multiple times to get extra uses, but it's probably not worth it. A single use of it lasts a minute, anyway.

[Xerlith]

Small correction: Travel Devotion. There's plenty of ways to get turning attempts, but I can't think of any that would work without multiclassing. You can take Travel Devotion multiple times to get extra uses, but it's probably not worth it. A single use of it lasts a minute, anyway.

Oops. Yep, I was preoccupied with something else. :smallredface:
There's a feat that grants TU through some shenanigans, but it seems I can't remember it at all.

[Krazzman]

Are Prestigeclasses out? Or even wished for? Are only the DMG Prestigeclasses allowed?

In my old group stuff was quite harsh as in: IF we got a single bloody magic item we could assume that if it was too strong we don't have it for long. This included even such stuff as loosing nearly all of level 17 WBL to a DMfiat night skirmish between 2 groups at the resting place of my character and he was left with only his returning dagger and some armor and clothing as he was deemed dead due to being a Air Genasi (no need to breathe).

In such a group VOP makes sense. The Monk also makes sense if every other attempt (ACF/certain books or similar) was banned to make an effective melee when around every corner your fear of losing the stuff you need (fighters weapon, archers bow, mages book, sorcerers ability to cast) was present.

Anyway:
Something I thought about was this:
Getting the following feats:
Improved Natural Attack, Versatile Unarmed Attack, Martial Stance (the one for each hit getting +2hp), Travel Devotion (even if it is a daily ability then), Shaping and Binding Mauling Gauntlets to Hands (via Shape and Open Chakra feats) or similar Souldmelds you would like.
Midnight Dodge + Mobility to get into Shadowdancer might be an option to leave Monk and gain a cool shadow friend. If you have Shape souldmeld and bind it for stuff to get flying you can even call yourself Peter Pan.
Grab either other Stances/Strikes via Martial Strike/Martial stance or open other chakras/get other shapes via the other feats to get some utility into your monk... I think there was one meld that made your attacks count as force.
Get a Continuous effect item of "Blood Wind" (dunno the exact name. It's a cleric spell that let's you attack at a range of ??? feet with natural attacks [such as unarmed strikes]).

Good luck.

[Metahuman1]

Some Suggestions:

1: Pretty is in how the player writes the appearance of her character. I myself am very fond of finding a race/template I like and then refluffing the appearance. A Goliath or a Half Minotaur (both EXCELLENT options for a Monk BTW, just, not both on one character at this level cause the level adjustment's too high.), Becomes a really tall, strongly built human. If I want pretty (I usually do.), she's an Amazon Beauty. She's gorgeous, just as long as your not opposed to women who are large and/or strong.

2: Magic Items from other sources then the DMG are you friends. Healing Belts are life savers at low levels, Eternal Wands can offer some meaningful hour per level buffs with cross classed ranks in UMD (I strongly advise Greater Mighty Wallop on a couple of these, it's borderline essential. The spell can be found in Races of the Dragon.) Both of these Items come to you from the Magic Item Compendium. I also suggest A necklace of natural weapons form Savage Species, attuned to your unarmed strikes.

3: Look carefully at AFC's, they can benefit you. Alot. (I especially like one's that let you trade away slow fall and naturally overcoming DR Magic since you'll have the amulet of Mighty Fists or Necklace of Natural Weapons and access to feather fall anyway if you know what your doing, so these two features are just dead weight that you might as well get something for.)

4: There are feats in Supplements such as Expanded Psionics handbook/Complete Psionic/SRD, Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic that can open sub systems up on a limited basis for characters that don't get them as a class feature. Look Hard at these, the feat investment is often well worth it for some of the powers you can unlock.

Some particular favorites would be the hidden talent line. Couple it with a set of +1 Manifester Shuriken and picking up the Expansion power and it gives you a world of extra options in the form of damage, reach, and making feats more viable like combat reflexes, Improved Trip+Knock Down, the Improved Bulls Rush Line, and the Improved Grapple line. Shape Soulmeld and Open Chakra get's you access to things like Peagusis Cloak and Sphinx Claws for flight or Pounce (Another thing you essentially need, not want, need.), Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige for access to vestiges like Paimon and Beur and Delver-Nari, and the Learn Martial Maneuver/Stance line get's you awesome stuff like Mountain Hammer, Martial Spirit, Pearl of Black doubt and Iron Heart Surge, all of which are amazing.

These are within the purview of feats form any book, and are likely gonna make this a lot less painful for you.

5: Consider taking a low impact flaw or two form unearthed arcana to get extra feats. This gives you access to feats you want that open up subsystems or make you better at using a combat maneuver like Tripping or Grappling or Bulls Rushing. I like Shaky and maybe something that penalizes a skill I don't care about myself. Very little lost, and a lot of potential to gain.

[Rubik]

3: Look carefully at AFC's, they can benefit you. Alot.http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html

[kpumphre]

Probably been suggested but the vows wont hurt Vow of poverty. It just seems so monk flavored.

[Rubik]

Probably been suggested but the vows wont hurt Vow of poverty. It just seems so monk flavored.Are you saying VoP is good, or that it's bad? I can't quite tell.

99% of everyone on the boards seems to think it's bad. Very, very bad. Especially with monk, which is already bad, and VoP just makes worse.

Anyone who wants a VoP monk should ask their DM to swap out the near-useless [Exalted] feats for a ToB maneuver progression and incarnum bonus feats and an incarnum progression. It'd be viable then.

[kpumphre]

Vow of poor or which ever one it is. Not vow of peace (much better for a bard) I think it's fun to use them. Not really your best optimized thing but still they can be fun to play and the flavor of it fits a monk at least in my opinion.

[Rubik]

Vow of poor or which ever one it is. Not vow of peace (much better for a bard) I think it's fun to use them. Not really your best optimized thing but still they can be fun to play and the flavor of it fits a monk at least in my opinion.Vow of Poverty is the name, which is shorted to VoP (with Vow of Peace being VoPe).

And given that VoP takes a massive number of options off the table and gives almost nothing back, I'm pretty sure it actively rids any given monk of fun potential (since killing game options limits the mechanical possibilities you have available for 'fun').

[HammeredWharf]

VoP isn't that bad at lower levels, especially for a monk. At level 6, you get a +6 exalted bonus to AC, 4 exalted feats, as many +1 weapons as you can use and a +1 deflection bonus to AC. You've got a WBL of 13K and an Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 alone would cost 6K, so it's not a horrible deal monetarily and exalted feats are still a nice bonus at that level. However, diminishing returns strike afterwards, especially because there's only a few useful exalted feats, WBL grows faster than the bonuses of VoP and you losing nifty little items starts to sting too much around level 8.

So, saying you get "almost nothing back" is a bit too harsh. An average lvl 1 monk wouldn't mind a +4 to his AC at all. However, because this character is going to be used even after lvl 8, I'd highly recommend not touching VoP.

[squarecircle]

The vows aren't really worth taking unless you're really wanting that "goody two shoes fountain of piety". You'll end up with all the vows, too. That isn't fun.

To be honest, I've always liked the idea of a monk just taking other subsystem feats + kung fu genius. Warrior scholar to the max!

[MrGreve]

Greetings forum peeps. We humbly ask for your superior knowledge and eons of experience.

I understand that there are a billion and one ways to build monk types.
However, we're only allowed to use the phb and dm1 for classes. Ironically, the feats from all books are up for grabs.

I had my fiance roll her stats and this is what she got for her monk. My eyes nearly popped out of my head. Since I've never managed a sheet without one or two -2 or -1 stats I figured we would milk it.

Str 18
Dex 16
Con14
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 11

(Running in and beating up squishies)

Race human

Str focus

So far:

1- dodge, weapon focus(unarmed), improved grapple
2- combat reflexes
3- superior unarmed strike
6- improved natural weapon, improved trip
9-mobility
12- spring attack


What kind of feats should we be looking into?
What kind of gear is there available for unarmed focused monks?

Are there more ways to improve armor, base damage, monkiness, and attack bonus?

Other advice aside from things along the lines of multiclassing?


Thanks in advance. Much appreciated!!

-Dove.

Well, this is not any help.. because iy is 6 years tolate... but you have a problem with yours feats...
You can't take weapon focus and superior unarmed strike at those lvls.. your bab is not high enough for those lvls

[Zombulian]

Well, this is not any help.. because iy is 6 years tolate... but you have a problem with yours feats...
You can't take weapon focus and superior unarmed strike at those lvls.. your bab is not high enough for those lvls

Begone foul necromancer. Let this poor soul rest in peace lest I smite your lights out.