Pathfinder/3.5 - Where do I start?

[Jigürd]

Greetings Playgrounders!

A group of friends and I are thinking of starting a D&D group, and the DM has decided on the story focus of 3.5/Pathfinder over the balance and combat focus of 4e. Now I myself have played a fair bit of 4e, but I have no previous experience with Pathfinder. The thing is, between them 3.5 and Pathfinder have a LOT of books, and I have no idea where to start. Thus I have come to seek the wisdom of the playgrounders. My questions are as follows:

1. What are the "essential" books? Do we need anything beyond the Bestiary, DM's Guide and Core rulebook? Any books to get as soon as we can, or conversely, stay the heck away from because they're really bad?

2. Are 3.5 and Pathfinder completely compatible, or are there differences that can cause hickups? are there other pitfalls in the rules, like really terrible classes, poorly written rules, that kind of thing?

3. Are there any online resources you can recommend? I have heard something about a tier list for classes, do I need that?

[BWR]

1. You don't need anything beyond the PHB/DMG/MM for 3.5 or the CRB/MM for PF.
All the rest is extra rules. And most of the stuff you can find free online on the SRD for 3.5 or the PRD for PF, as well as secondary sites with just about all mechanics you can imagine.

2. They are mostly compatible. There are a several things, like differences in skill systems, certain comabt options, how certain spells work, etc. There're enough differences that you should make sure to read both thoroughly if you are going to switch or mix. I've been playing PF for 2 years after playing 3.5 since it came out and am still getting tripped up by something - not enough to stall the game, just things that work a bit differently than I expected.
All the major aspects are the same and knowing one will give you almost complete knowledge of the other.

3. Tier list is only for those who really really care about the tier list.
The PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/) has most of Pathfinder's mechanics. You will still need the CRB for detailed explanations of the basics, but the PRD is an invaluable resource. The d20pfsrd (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/)has more mechanics from more sources.
3.5 has the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), which is basically the same.

[Nihilarian]

Almost the entire Pathfinder ruleset is available online (http://www.d20pfsrd.com).

As new players, you probably want to stick to Pathfinder material. Some 3.5 material can be ported easily, some of it can't. If you decide you want 3.5 material, here's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136890) that helps explain the differences.

[Bovine Colonel]

Greetings Playgrounders!

A group of friends and I are thinking of starting a D&D group, and the DM has decided on the story focus of 3.5/Pathfinder over the balance and combat focus of 4e. Now I myself have played a fair bit of 4e, but I have no previous experience with Pathfinder. The thing is, between them 3.5 and Pathfinder have a LOT of books, and I have no idea where to start. Thus I have come to seek the wisdom of the playgrounders. My questions are as follows:

1. What are the "essential" books? Do we need anything beyond the Bestiary, DM's Guide and Core rulebook? Any books to get as soon as we can, or conversely, stay the heck away from because they're really bad?

2. Are 3.5 and Pathfinder completely compatible, or are there differences that can cause hickups? are there other pitfalls in the rules, like really terrible classes, poorly written rules, that kind of thing?

3. Are there any online resources you can recommend? I have heard something about a tier list for classes, do I need that?

1. The essential books are just the bestiary, core rules, etc. I'd personally recommend Tome of Battle (3.5) as a book that actually gives mundane characters proper options, but it has a high optimization floor so it might be a bit overwhelming in low-optimization groups.

2. There are a few differences between 3.5 and Pathfinder. Pathfinder introduced favored class bonuses (+1 hp or +1 skill point per level if you choose your favored class), consolidated some skills (Stealth, Acrobatics, and what not), introduced combat maneuver bonus/defense as a unified system for trips/disarms/grapples/bull rushes/other stuff, and added a bunch of class features to most classes.

3. The tier list for classes is available here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0). Generally speaking your game should be pretty well balanced if no one actually understands what the strongest options are, but if the party druid suddenly starts locking down the whole battlefield and co-opting the fighter's job you'll know why.

[Nihilarian]

Since someone else linked the tier system, I'll say that if you're going to read any of it, you'd better read all of it. Not understanding the tier system can result in more issues than not knowing about it in the first place.

[Alent]

Greetings Playgrounders!

A group of friends and I are thinking of starting a D&D group, and the DM has decided on the story focus of 3.5/Pathfinder over the balance and combat focus of 4e. Now I myself have played a fair bit of 4e, but I have no previous experience with Pathfinder. The thing is, between them 3.5 and Pathfinder have a LOT of books, and I have no idea where to start. Thus I have come to seek the wisdom of the playgrounders. My questions are as follows:

1. What are the "essential" books? Do we need anything beyond the Bestiary, DM's Guide and Core rulebook? Any books to get as soon as we can, or conversely, stay the heck away from because they're really bad?

The first thing to be aware of is that there is a fairly big difference between 3.5, Pathfinder, and combinations of the two. Which particular flavor you're playing will determine which of the rest is relevant.

If you're playing 3.5, you'll need the Player's handbook, the DM's Guide and a few monster manuals. Some of this is available on the d20srd (http://www.d20srd.org/).

If you're playing Pathfinder, you'll need the CRB, DMG, and Bestiary. Most of this is available on the official PRD (http://paizo.com/prd/) or the unofficial PF SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). You usually end up using both since the unofficial one is usually more comprehensive, and includes Paizo FAQ rulings and Errata. (Note that this is not necessarily a good thing if you want to play a Fighter...)


2. Are 3.5 and Pathfinder completely compatible, or are there differences that can cause hickups? are there other pitfalls in the rules, like really terrible classes, poorly written rules, that kind of thing?

Well, Pathfinder is a set of house rules for 3.5, that were published as a ruleset because the 3.5 ruleset was officially discontinued. Paizo made an adaptation guide that you can download for free from their website for adapting 3.5 anything to Pathfinder. These rules do not always work for everything, and they don't work that well in reverse. So... they're reasonably compatible.

Past that, there are quite a few differences and you'll generally find Pathfinder more glitchy than 3.5, but both are glitchy as a launch MMO. Both systems have massive internal inconsistencies and poorly written rules:

3.5 tends to be more consistent when it comes to core rules, but many of the splatbooks had terrible editing and a large number of writers that didn't know what other writers were doing, leading to some general incompatibilities and the occasional exploit that the DM is expected to resolve himself.

Pathfinder is a stranger egg. Due to a huge series of bandaid fixes to old exploits and some changes to discourage a few specific 3.5 playstyles, it tends to have more internal inconsistencies in the core rules, but the smaller team of writers and editors results in a more consistent overall product experience- assuming you don't want to play a Fighter, those exist in a constant state of flux, living one nerf to the next, wondering what the next FAQ post will bring, holding up a tin cup and saying "alms, alms for the poor" to any DM that passes by.

Personally, I'd recommend playing 3.5 and selectively backporting Pathfinder stuff you like. It has the least potential for backfiring on your DM as long as he makes sure he fully understands what he's bringing into his world.

If your group has already decided on pathfinder, be careful about importing 3.5 feats, as many of them make certain assumptions about features granted by their prerequisite feats that may not be true anymore. You may also look into Ziegander's Let's Fix Pathfinder's Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331427) thread, which attempts to address some of the more senseless melee feat nerfs that Paizo has made.

DSP also has some very nice ports of 3.5 subsystems to Pathfinder in the works, they did a good job porting Psionics and have a Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Battle port in the works.


3. Are there any online resources you can recommend? I have heard something about a tier list for classes, do I need that?

Online resources - aforementioned SRDs and here.

Tier system - Not really, it isn't a part of the rules or anything. It's just a system JaronK came up with to give a DM a quick way to gauge relative power of classes. Person_Man's Niche system is another good tool for this. Both can be found on these forums.

Be advised that Pathfinder's changes make the Pathfinder lists for both systems NOT the same as the 3.5 lists. Some of the classes got new class features that throw off the scales. You will have to do some work and research yourselves if you intend to use either.