Vampires Help(3.5)

[sambouchah]

I was just reading through some Monster Manuals today and saw the Graveyard Sludge, and thought "Vampire cultist of Jubilex!" I was with a friend and proposed the idea to him, he thinks a Vampire wouldn't care to worship any deity, let alone Jubilex. Would it be unreasonable for a Vampire(who in my mind are already synonymous with hate) to worship the Faceless One?

Also would it be too powerful a Bestow Curse Greater to turn a Character into a Vampire at level five?

Thanks all!
Sam

[shylocke]

There is no reason why that wouldn't work. Vampires can worship who they like. As for the curse. That all depends on the power ratio of the game.

[Red Fel]

I was just reading through some Monster Manuals today and saw the Graveyard Sludge, and thought "Vampire cultist of Jubilex!" I was with a friend and proposed the idea to him, he thinks a Vampire wouldn't care to worship any deity, let alone Jubilex. Would it be unreasonable for a Vampire(who in my mind are already synonymous with hate)?

First off, I don't see any reason that a Vampire wouldn't worship a deity. A Vampire might even worship the same deity they did in life; it's still the same person, just with a few minor behavioral differences.

Second, how exactly are Vampires synonymous with "hate?" I could see them representing hunger or lust taken to monstrous extremes, but I think I'm missing where you get "hate" from. As an aficionado of Evil, I'm curious.


Also would it be too powerful a Bestow Curse Greater to turn a Character into a Vampire at level five?

Ignoring for a moment the levels involved, let's check the actual text:


The spellcaster places a curse on the creature touched, choosing one of the three following effects:

* One ability score is reduced to 1, or two ability scores suffer -6 penalties (minimum 1).
* -8 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, and skill checks.
* Each turn, the subject has a 25% chance to act normally; otherwise, he takes no action.

You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those listed above, and the Dungeon Master (DM) has final say on the curse's effect.

This forum has previously discussed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188494) possible alternate uses for Bestow Curse. They tend to be either cosmetic or non-mechanical in nature (e.g. subject is rendered sterile, animals won't come near you) or chance-of-failure related (e.g. 50% chance to fail any attempt to aid an ally). There are suggestions of more powerful mechanical impacts, such as rendering the character unable to take a particular type of action; as suggested by the spell text, such effects would be subject to heavy DM supervision.

None of the suggested uses I've seen involved adding a template that requires a +8 LA. If you're proposing a PC using Greater Bestow Curse to grant the Vampire template, I'd tell you a hundred times no. That's far too powerful for a PC to grant that kind of ability.

Now, as a matter of DM fiat, can you throw templates at your characters? Sure! I've seen campaign logs where a character sits down for a meeting with the local wise man, gets stabbed in the hands and contracts the Dark template (I know some people here will remember that one). That's both reasonable, because it's a +1 LA template, and awesome, because Dark template.

However, that's a +1 LA template with a handful of useful benefits to a particular type of character. Vampires gain a ton of abilities, feats, and resistances, as well as a few weaknesses (some of which can be overcome via a second template, Vampire Lord, which has no LA). Further, this is being applied to a level 5 character. So while it is certainly within the DM's discretion to do this, I would strongly discourage it.

Now, with regard to the explicit text of the spell, it notes that there should be a "single means of removing it with some deed that the spellcaster designates." Vampirism isn't usually the sort of "curse" you can just poof and get rid of. It's a slightly (if not 100%) permanent thing. Bestow Curse can do things to a character, but they vanish when the trigger is met. That means vampirism goes poof. And that's not how vampirism tends to work.

[Bakeru]

The only trouble I see with Vampires and Worship is their reaction to holy symbols - but then, RAW, they only shy away when a creature actually presents a holy symbol or mirror, which takes a standard action. They could brush their pointy teeth while looking into a mirror each morning/evening, as long as it's wall-mounted (is there anything in D&D stating if they have reflections?).

Fun fact: If you see your friendly neighbourhood priest drop his holy symbol, don't pick it up and give it to him. And if they present their own holy symbols to themselves, they have to stay five feet away from themselves. Oh joy.

I'm gonna shut up now, my mind went of on a tangent and I can't get it back on the rails any more.

[shylocke]

If vampires are inherently evil then they would get command undead wouldn't they?

[Bakeru]

If vampires are inherently evil then they would get command undead wouldn't they?Technically, it's "Rebuke Undead", which has a chance to control undead if you're high enough in level and/or roll good enough.

But yes, as all-evil template, any vampire priest would rebuke/control Undead.

[shylocke]

So could it command itself to do something it didn't want to?

[Bakeru]

Most definitely - it would, however, need a Standard Action to do so.

Also, when it uses Rebuke Undead, it has to rebuke itself (since the closest Undead get affected first) - unless it is already controlling itself (you can skip already affected Undead), which would make its own HD count against its limit of controllable HD.


I'm starting to get the feel that RAW, "Undead Necromancer" really isn't the most optimised build.

Edit:
Correction. It can Control itself, but only if it uses something to raise the HD limit of controllable undead.
At any time, a Cleric can control a number of undead whose HD do not exceed the Cleric's level. So, if it has any racial HD or any level in a non-cleric class, it exceeds its own HD level, and can, thus, only Rebuke, but not Control itself.