Good Drow and Other Stereotypes

[Piedmon_Sama]

Absolutely. (Bonus points for using "statuesque pleasurebot" in a sentance.) For very much the same reason they play mighty warriors and goddly mages instead of 'Ted, from accounting.' Nobody wants to play the nobody who is mostly ignored, and never really accomplishes anything. Most people feel like that in their day to day lives, so why play it?

I am not saying it is 100% the case, or that people should want to play the fat waitress with a lisp instead of the scantily clad drow priestess with mighty powers and breasts to make a chiropractor hear a cash register chime (she only wants to be accepted as a good person, though.) Quite the contrary.
It is simply an extension of the desire that makes said waitress describe herself as "volumptuous" on her Date.com account: Everyone wishes to be better than they perceive themselves to be, particularly when imagining alter egos for themselves.
It takes a much stronger interest in role playing than I think most people have to enjoy pretending to be a somewhat stout bartended whose wife left him for a barbarian in a loin cloth, even if it would be a very interesting character.


No, wait. That's actually a genius idea. Seriously, think about this.... you've got a Bartender with a mile-wide grudge against the wandering adventurer who stole his girl (let's not say wife), only said thief-of-the-heart happens to be one of the most celebrated heroes in the realm?

"Oh, sure, everybody just LOVES Lord Highborn.... oh, thank you, Lord Highborn, for stopping the Dragon! Oh thank you, Lord Highborn, for driving out the Orcs! Hey, Lord Highborn--THANKS for stealing my girl, you plate-mailed prick!"

....OK, so I have a new idea for a 1st/2nd level adventurer. Thanks. >_>

[Suzaku]

I think the question was not so much why not play a different evil race as why play an evil race at all? Why not play a normal elf? What does being an Eilistraeen Drow add to your character that being a Sune- or Sharess-worshipping Elf doesn't?

Again unless evils are socially unaccepted the flavor of the character I want to play suddenly disappears. It's like playing a dwarf who left his clans men because the strict mandated routine of their life style as race of mostly lawful creatures and suddenly changing it to chaotic race. The flavor just falls apart




Yes... that is the point. People don't play goblins or kobolds because they are not attractive.

I quote a the poster who claims that people only play the evil attractive races and I mentioned the non attractive races that people like to play.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Honestly, it sounds to me like your Cleric of Ellistree should have plenty of stigma concerning the whole "prances naked" thing.... might want to check that 'afore you start wandering some random Dale villages...

[Were-Sandwich]

Honestly, it sounds to me like your Cleric of Ellistree should have plenty of stigma concerning the whole "prances naked" thing.... might want to check that 'afore you start wandering some random Dale villages...
Why? Human men pay human women to do it all the time.

[Thomas]

Honestly, it sounds to me like your Cleric of Ellistree should have plenty of stigma concerning the whole "prances naked" thing.... might want to check that 'afore you start wandering some random Dale villages...

But she'd fit right into the court of Silverymoon!

... if it wasn't for the mythal keeping her out of the whole city.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Why? Human men pay human women to do it all the time.

We have no naked women in our streets.... what city do you live in? O_o

(And will they accept my visa there?)

[Suzaku]

nope Mastercard or American Express only sorry

[Piedmon_Sama]

EXCHANGE RATES, YOU WILL NOT STAND IN THE WAY OF LOVE!

(nothing like derailing threads at 8:30 in the morning, no sir, nothing quite like the feeling....)

[Golthur]

We have no naked women in our streets.... what city do you live in? O_o

(And will they accept my visa there?)

See, now I'm thinking about Montreal. Damn, I love Montreal.

[Were-Sandwich]

My point was, it would probably get her very warm reception, regardless of her race.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Silliness aside, most communities have pretty stringent "decency" laws. I am talking about human communities, of course.... and dwarves, I think they'd kick you out just for prancing, let alone doing it naked.... nah, I'm just giving you a hard time. I'm sure your character won't actually wander into any settlements in her birthday suit!

(Right?)

[Golthur]

My point was, it would probably get her very warm reception, regardless of her race.

I remember a computer game like that; maybe Morrowind or Arcanum? Where if you walked around naked, everyone would mention it, but, boy, would they be friendly.

[Thomas]

Silliness aside, most communities have pretty stringent "decency" laws. I am talking about human communities, of course.... and dwarves, I think they'd kick you out just for prancing, let alone doing it naked.... nah, I'm just giving you a hard time. I'm sure your character won't actually wander into any settlements in her birthday suit!

Well, really, that depends. I was serious about Silverymoon. Any Realms community written mostly by Ed Greenwood would probably be a-okay with it...

(Incidentally, the narrative of the AD&D book about drow - Drow of the Underdark? - involves a naked drow priestess sitting in a pool with Elminster, recounting tales and information about her people... I don't recall if it's Qilue or not.)

[Fhaolan]

Not, I am sure, that this applies to you. A squirrel? Worg? That's gone out one side of extreme and come back the other way! The orc is somewhat normal, though, and it sounds like he has an interesting story. I'm still tying to imagine how a squirrel shoots a bow.

Well, I try to always make sure there is a reasonable expectation of... I'm trying to think of a way to put this in one sentence and failing. Hold on, my brain's glitched.

Okay. Every character I play, even if it's a non-standard race, always has a reasonable excuse for being there. With all the druid's and ranger's companion animals wandering around, regular commoners won't think an oversized wolf (worg) is unreasonable as included in an adventuring party. They may misunderstand the relationship the creature has with the rest of the party, but that's part of the role-playing experience. The squirrel is easily explained as an unusual familiar. And most villagers would probably have a difficult time telling the difference between a half-orc and a full orc.

So in each case, while they are non-standard races, there isn't a big 'What the heck?' hanging over their heads. That leaves me with the role-playing aspects of trying to think in an alien way, which is usually what I want to do.

[Arlanthe]

Well, I try to always make sure there is a reasonable expectation of... I'm trying to think of a way to put this in one sentence and failing. Hold on, my brain's glitched.

Okay. Every character I play, even if it's a non-standard race, always has a reasonable excuse for being there. With all the druid's and ranger's companion animals wandering around, regular commoners won't think an oversized wolf (worg) is unreasonable as included in an adventuring party. They may misunderstand the relationship the creature has with the rest of the party, but that's part of the role-playing experience. The squirrel is easily explained as an unusual familiar. And most villagers would probably have a difficult time telling the difference between a half-orc and a full orc.

So in each case, while they are non-standard races, there isn't a big 'What the heck?' hanging over their heads. That leaves me with the role-playing aspects of trying to think in an alien way, which is usually what I want to do.

That's a good explanation. Is thatchow you guys play it off? It makes sense that a Worg could pass as an animal companion, etc, whereas the insectoid man would always get caught.

Seriously though, how does the squirrel shoot the bow?

[Suzaku]

But she'd fit right into the court of Silverymoon!

... if it wasn't for the mythal keeping her out of the whole city.
Where can I learn more about the Mythal?

[Fhaolan]

That's a good explanation. Is thatchow you guys play it off? It makes sense that a Worg could pass as an animal companion, etc, whereas the insectoid man would always get caught.

Pretty much. It's all a matter of reasonable expectations. If the common people expect adventuring parties to be chock full of weird-ass things, they're not going to react to those same weird-ass things. If Orcs are considered to be horrible child-eating monsters, commoners will react to half-orcs just as bad as full-orcs. What's the real difference between a commoner running into a half-dragon, and a commoner running into a guy wearing blood-red spiked full-plate, carrying dozens of weapons, Ioun stones whipping around his head, riding a gryphon, who glows like a christmas tree thanks to all the magic dripping off of him? Not much. In neither case does the commoner have a reasonable expectation.


Seriously though, how does the squirrel shoot the bow?

Bit of hand-waving there, just for the sake of it being a funny character concept. It's pretty amusing, as he only does 1 point of damage even if he manages to hit anything. :smallbiggrin: He started as my character, but a new player joined the group and took a shine to that character, so I switched to the full-blooded Orc ranger. The new player has him going up levels as rogue now, rather than fighter, because that sneak attack damage is *absolutely* necessary to make the character in any way effective. :smallbiggrin:

[Gamebird]

My general rule of thumb is that if the character concept is invalidated by being commonplace, then it's not much of a character concept.

[Matthew]

If Orcs are considered to be horrible child-eating monsters, commoners will react to half-orcs just as bad as full-orcs.

That's an odd thing about 3.x. Half Orcs have become very recognisable, instead of 'passable for human'. I prefer the latter.

[Gamebird]

...For very much the same reason they play mighty warriors and goddly mages instead of 'Ted, from accounting.' Nobody wants to play the nobody who is mostly ignored, and never really accomplishes anything. Most people feel like that in their day to day lives, so why play it?

The odd thing about your point is that most people who want to play weirdo fringe characters do so because they themselves feel like weirdo fringe people. They already feel like an outsider, so they want to play an outsider and gain acceptance (or aggressively fight prejudice) by proxy. At least, this applies to the people I've played with who wanted really odd characters.

Wouldn't it be cool to play "Ted from accounting" for a large trade guild, caught up in a quest to save the kingdom/village/his girlfriend/his dad/the family pet? Having to master arcane powers/weapon styles/sneakiness? You'd be like a peasant-everyman, striking out against injustice to commoners everywhere! And your character might have a deep, loving relationship with his family, rather than the moody lonerism of fringe weirdo characters, who often don't even know who their parents are, much less relate with them.

I think that would be awesome! Of course, the character I'm currently playing is a human farm girl, who fights with farming tools and a spiked club (mace) and has her own tragic past about a failed relationship with a dilettante noble and a miscarriage that she fears left her barren and definitely left her moody and angry (hence the class: Barbarian). Torn by fears that her otherwise loving and well-intentioned parents might have poisoned her to cause the miscarriage, or her ex-beau might have hired an ensorcelment cast on her to end her father's pestering of him to marry her for the baby's sake, the farm girl more-or-less ran away from home and took up the party's quest, which paradoxically brought her right back to the home village trying to save it. Which has led to wonderful role play as I try to reconcile the character's very strong feelings about her family and home with the situation. (Of course it helps to have an awesome DM who works to bring about things like that.)

How would I ever get that kind of depth out of a drow, or humanoid insect, or an archer squirrel? I suppose I could, but why bother, when the basic classes and races suit me just fine?


It takes a much stronger interest in role playing than I think most people have to enjoy pretending to be a somewhat stout bartended whose wife left him for a barbarian in a loin cloth, even if it would be a very interesting character.

Great idea! Someday I should play a plain-looking woman ("Teresa, from accounting") whose husband left her for a drow. Or a talking squirrel.

[blackout]

My personal opinion on this is listed below.

It's no secret that I play with an all-monster party. My character is a Bugbear. Over the course of our campaign, we've had at least thirteen characters in the party, among them a Kobold Wizard(now a 'techpriest'), Troll paladin that ate veggies, a Gnoll Fighter, and a Half-Giant Sorcerer. (and we also fought the Master Chief, some Covenant rebels, UNSC marines, stole Cortana and a Phantom dropship, and got some l33t gear.) Anyways, this little band of misfits is an all monster, or at least part-monster, group. We're regularly driven out of towns, and we always try to make a living in any way possible. But there's one thing that's kind of odd about the 'earning a living' thing.

These guys are mercenaries who only work for the good guys. The majority of my group is Neutral Good, or Chaotic Neutral. But two other members, and myself, are Chaotic Good. And for the most part they never really try to harm the general populace for the hell of it. They only fight in self-defense, and if their getting paid. They've been duped by evil guys more than once, but their always willing to set things right if they do get duped...usually by killing the employer that duped them. And occasionally the employer 'conviently forgets to pay' and tries to have them killed. Another case of killing in self-defense. But during the course of the entire campaign, not one of the people in my party have been evil.The closest to evil someone got was Chaotic Neutral, particularly our Kobold Sorcerer. He's always blowing stuff up, and ever since he got the grenades, it's been worse. Anyways, fact is, you can't just select a race at random and lump every person that's part of that species into the same category. Every species or culture may have certain beliefs, or bodily traits that force them to do things that most people under different circumstances wouldn't normally do. Alot of the Illithids would actually probably be considered good...if it weren't for the fact that they eat other peoples' brains. So, remember, if you run across a goblin, and he happens to be holding a weapon, try to negotiate first. See what he wants, and if it's something you don't have, or are unwilling to part with, THEN, and only THEN, kill him.

-Blackout. :)

[Arlanthe]

My general rule of thumb is that if the character concept is invalidated by being commonplace, then it's not much of a character concept.

In my own personal lexicon "invalidate" is a pretty strong word. You can look at this from race/class perspective or story perspective. They are two different things.

You could have a human fighter... who speaks only via her telepathic tiara because she had her tongue ripped out by demons, summoned by her hermaphroditic mother, queen of the Orc-Badgers.

Or you could have a Half-Drow Half-Orc Wizard-Sorcerer-Cleric spellfire wielder... "leaving the underworld to throw off the evil ways of his kin".

There is the race-class dynamic, and the "story" dynamic. The "concept" I describe as the sum of all of that.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes... that is the point. People don't play goblins or kobolds because they are not attractive.
I play goblins and hobgoblins all the time. Then again, with a little creativity (http://goblinscomic.com/d/20050814.html), any aesthetic is possible.

I think I just proved my point and defeated it at the same time.


Where can I learn more about the Mythal?
This particular mythal? I imagine sourcebooks dealing with Silverymoon or the Silver Marches. I believe the relevant information is that it hedges out certain kinds of creatures, including Drow.

"Mythal" in general is Faerunian for "Magical Plot Device".

[Thomas]

Where can I learn more about the Mythal?

It's outlined in Silver Marches (and probably in the FRCS), and described in detail (down to XP and gp costs) in Lost Empires of Faerûn. It basically keeps anything evil or interesting (including any evil-aligned creature, all orcs, drow demons, devils, etc.) out of Silverymoon, and grants certain effects to anyone within, and more effects to properly attuned persons. Silverymoon is pretty much entirely invalidated as an adventure location by this, and anyone within is more or less completely safe from anything anywhere ever. I hate it, really (which is why my Silverymoon-based campaign actually includes zero RP in Silverymoon).

I also have no clue how Xara Tantlor, an evil-aligned NPC from Silver Marches (she used to be Neutral in AD&D, apparently) can live in Silverymoon, in view of the wards.

Edit: LEoF has rules for mythals in general. They're epic spells affecting a huge area, creating numerous permanent effects, and dependent on a "capstone." You can calculate DCs and costs for them. They're magical plot devices, true, but... er... magic is always a plot device (and usually a deus ex machina).

[Gamebird]

In my own personal lexicon "invalidate" is a pretty strong word.

What I mean is that it makes the concept unplayable, or rather it makes it not worth playing for that player, or uninteresting for that player. If your character concept becomes uninteresting if it is commonplace in the game world, then ... I would consider it to be a pretty lame concept.

By concept I mean background, personality, history, character's opinions and feelings, race and ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, appearance and so on. Class doesn't really factor into it, because just about any concept can feed into any class or set of special abilities.

My way of thinking of concept might be different than yours. Just like I've recently discovered that a fair number of people on the board believe that role playing includes choosing feats and skills and dictating combat manuevers. While I feel those might have elements of role playing in them, they aren't role playing per se, anymore than writing a script is acting.

[Fhaolan]

How would I ever get that kind of depth out of a drow, or humanoid insect, or an archer squirrel? I suppose I could, but why bother, when the basic classes and races suit me just fine?


If you don't want to bother, cool. But I do want to bother, on occasion. It's not like every character I play is some weird race combo. I've been playing D&D and other RPGs for almost thirty years. I've played hundreds, if not thousands of characters, most of which were human. I think I've had a total of twenty non-standard race characters in those thirty years. Maybe a hundred non-human, but standard race, characters.

Would it be better if I told you about the Human archer vetran who had an almost crippling injury that took him out of the army? He turned to the job of caravan guard, for a merchant that just needed bodies in the guard and willing to overlook the fact the guard had to ride in the wagons to keep up. It helped, of course, that the vetran was reasonably skilled in making and maintaining his own arrows and was able to defray the merchant's costs in supplying arrows to the mercenary guards. And as an archer, not being able to run isn't really *that* big of a deal...

This is the character I started with. The character concept was to be this vetran learning to overcome his war-aquired disabilities over time [Modelled by this 'experienced' warrior starting at a low level and progressing up.] Due to a glitch in how the game went, my character actually died guarding the caravan just before the rest of the party showed up to rescue it. A botched reincarnation spell later [Rolled 00, which makes it DM's choice], I had a freaking squirrel instead of a vetran archer.

Now comes the interesting dichonomy. The character was human, and wants to be human again. However, as a squirrel he's not a cripple. The priests he's talked to have made it sound like being made human again means being a cripple again as well. [As a player, I know that's not the way it works, but that's the way the DM had the cleric NPCs respond.] And this is the state I left the character in when the other player wanted to take it over.

Was that so bad?

[EvilElitest]

I think most people on this thread are just lashing out on people who play monster races without taking into account the fact that their are a lot of people who play them simple for the rolplaying reason. The attiention seeking lot are more of the negative side of things, but the positive side is a different roleplaying pespective. I am not saying anything is wronge with the basic races and classes, but if then want ot play somthing else, they can.
From,
EE

[Saph]

Anyways, fact is, you can't just select a race at random and lump every person that's part of that species into the same category. Every species or culture may have certain beliefs, or bodily traits that force them to do things that most people under different circumstances wouldn't normally do.

But that's exactly what's so irritating about persecuted monster characters - the implication that all those nasty humans are being SO unfair by being suspicious of a monster race just because 95% of them are psychotically evil. "I'm special, look at me!" is bad enough without adding a dose of "I'm morally superior" as well.

- Saph

[Talya]

But that's exactly what's so irritating about persecuted monster characters - the implication that all those nasty humans are being SO unfair by being suspicious of a monster race just because 95% of them are psychotically evil. "I'm special, look at me!" is bad enough without adding a dose of "I'm morally superior" as well.

- Saph

People keep mentioning this "persecuted monster" syndrome, but I have yet to see it. Drizzt himself doesn't even fit the category. If I had a player that tried that, I'd very quickly kill them off. It isn't the fact that they are playing a typically evil race as good, I'm fine with that. But as much as I love Eilistraeens, they get no breaks from justified anti-drow prejudice just because they're not evil. That's part of the plot/balancing kick for playing that race...you simply cannot go everywhere freely or do everything you want, and that's never changing. Campaigning against those attitudes will get you killed by DM fiat. Accepting them and playing within them is perfectly fine.

[Thomas]

But that's exactly what's so irritating about persecuted monster characters - the implication that all those nasty humans are being SO unfair by being suspicious of a monster race just because 95% of them are psychotically evil. "I'm special, look at me!" is bad enough without adding a dose of "I'm morally superior" as well.

You're generalizing pretty liberally there. That's a plain bad argument, since there's no way...
1. It can apply to all cases, or
2. Your personal experience can encompass such a large sample of cases that you can draw any useful conclusions from the percentages therein.

[Saph]

You're generalizing pretty liberally there. That's a plain bad argument, since there's no way...
1. It can apply to all cases

It applies to this case - 95% of Drow ARE evil.

And the reason I like Drizzt is that he doesn't lecture other people with the "persecuted monster" attitude. He holds himself to high standards but doesn't try and guilt-trip others.

- Saph

[Woot Spitum]

I want to play a human trying to overcome the prejudice of other races that all humans are prejudiced. I will prove to them all that I am ten times more tolerant and unprejudiced than anyone else. I will change their minds about the human race.

Seriously though, I think one stereotype that fantasy has done to death is that humans are the prejudiced bigots of the world. They are worse than the evil races, because the evil races can't help it. They are always "the only goodly race that fights wars against itself." Stuff like that. I think that humans need to start being played as normal.

[Thomas]

It applies to this case - 95% of Drow ARE evil.

You're misunderstanding what I was even referring to. The following statement was what I was talking about:


But that's exactly what's so irritating about persecuted monster characters - the implication that all those nasty humans are being SO unfair by being suspicious of a monster race just because 95% of them are psychotically evil. "I'm special, look at me!" is bad enough without adding a dose of "I'm morally superior" as well.You generalize grossly, using this as an argument against the idea of playing, for instance, Good drow.


Seriously though, I think one stereotype that fantasy has done to death is that humans are the prejudiced bigots of the world. They are worse than the evil races, because the evil races can't help it. They are always "the only goodly race that fights wars against itself." Stuff like that. I think that humans need to start being played as normal.

... which world have you been playing in? I guess that may apply to some campaign worlds, but in Faerûn, elves and dwarves are both far less accepting, more insular, more racist, and more likely to possess attitudes of racial superiority than humans; and elves have fought the most destructive intra-racial wars in the history of Faerûn... (And the Aryvandaar, who caused the Dark Disaster, weren't even turned into drow.) The mostly Lawful Good sun elves are the worst offenders, at that.

[Talya]

Seriously though, I think one stereotype that fantasy has done to death is that humans are the prejudiced bigots of the world. They are worse than the evil races, because the evil races can't help it. They are always "the only goodly race that fights wars against itself." Stuff like that. I think that humans need to start being played as normal.

But...that is normal for humans. Humans are, in general, everything darwinian evolution has created us to be: Selfish, bigotted, and violent, while simultaneously altruistic, compassionate, and peaceloving. That's the norm for the human condition.

What isn't normal are races that are predominantly "good" or "evil."

[Talya]

The mostly Lawful Good sun elves are the worst offenders, at that.


Umm...Lawful? Did I miss something there? Lawful elves of any color are as rare as good drow. :)

[Gamebird]

Was that so bad?

I was picking on the squirrel because squirrels are inherently funny. Plus if taken out of context, it sounds really bizarre. :smalltongue:

Old style Reincarnate is also very funny. A PC and an NPC died in a big combat in a game I was playing in. Both were reincarnated. The PC came back as a wolverine, which in D&D is Medium and ferocious, with huge bonuses to stats. Since he'd been a Fighter to start with, he was really powerful. The NPC, who had been male, came back as a dryad. Which of course had no tree... the DM had the poor confused soul led away and we never found out how that got resolved.

[Fhaolan]

I was picking on the squirrel because squirrels are inherently funny. Plus if taken out of context, it sounds really bizarre. :smalltongue:

Old style Reincarnate is also very funny. A PC and an NPC died in a big combat in a game I was playing in. Both were reincarnated. The PC came back as a wolverine, which in D&D is Medium and ferocious, with huge bonuses to stats. Since he'd been a Fighter to start with, he was really powerful. The NPC, who had been male, came back as a dryad. Which of course had no tree... the DM had the poor confused soul led away and we never found out how that got resolved.

Oh, I understand. :smallwink: I was being a bit defensive, and felt the need to explain more fully. Sorry 'bout that.

The whole reason he got reincarnated as a squirrel was because it *was* funny. And still is.

I have some specific self-inflicted rules about what characters I can play. These rules apply equally to races, classes, or just general character concepts:

1) It has to fit into the campaign world as a reasonable choice. Warforged is a reasonable choice in Eberron but not Dragonlance, for example. No priests of Sune in Dark Sun, for another.

2) The character has to be able to work in a 'normal' adventuring party. The comic-book character 'Wolverine' is an excelent example of a horrible RPG character. If you can't work in a group with the other players, you're not playing a game I want to deal with.

3) No 'sponges', as described above by another poster. If the character constantly draws attention away from the rest of the party, it's a failure as far as I'm concerned.

I can, if I really wanted to, violate all these rules with a Human character. I don't need a weird race to screw up games. I can do that with the most generic characters imaginable. Heck, a lot of people get bent out of shape when I try to play a character from a different cultural background, let alone race! I'm of anglo-saxon/celtic descent. You should have seen the furor when I created an oriental character in this one game about twenty years ago. I was young, so I got upset and changed the character to being black. They tried to ban me from the building they were using to play the game in (a YMCA). I look back now, and see how incredibly stupid it all was.

And I know how much gender-bending upsets people. :smallbiggrin:

[Matthew]

Heh. I'm more comfortable with the female player who wants to run a male character, than a male player who wants to run a female character. Relatively good experiences with the former, not so good experiences with the latter.

[Thomas]

But...that is normal for humans. Humans are, in general, everything darwinian evolution has created us to be: Selfish, bigotted, and violent, while simultaneously altruistic, compassionate, and peaceloving. That's the norm for the human condition. "

Ow, ow, ow. Please don't use "Darwinian" like that. It's nonsense.

You're right about the sun elves' alignment, though. I've just got them stuck as LG in my head (what with the mighty empires, haughtiness, hiearchy, insular culture, etc.), especially compared to the moon elves.

[Matthew]

Hmmn. I seem to recall a rumour that Forgotten Realms Elves aren't True Elves or something...

[Thomas]

Hmmn. I seem to recall a rumour that Forgotten Realms Elves aren't True Elves or something...

How does that go?

They're planar immigrants, sort of, from some kind of fey realm. But dwarves and orcs (and several human subraces) are planar immigrants to Faerûn, too.

[Matthew]

Can't remember, just something I vaguely recall about there being no true Elves left in Faerun. Maybe it was in something else. Might have been in the Savage Frontier. Have to do a search.

[Edit] Hmmnn. Couldn't find anything and can't remember the source of this idea. All I could find was the (A)D&D version of events that suggests Elves were made by the 'Creator Races'.

[Alex Knight]

So...I play a "good drow" in the campaign, and she's even a priestess of Elistraee. (cue the groans)

Of course, her family is the one family in Illthyr that didn't turn away from the Seldarine to worship Lolth, but instead stayed with Elistraee. However, they were cursed along with the rest of the Drow.

In the minds of her family, they *deserved* the curse because they didn't stop the spread of Lolth's worship. They were too weak, and were punished for their weakness. The family is good-aligned, but resorts to kidnapping young drow from the Underdark to "raise them properly", and still believes that the strong should rule. They just think the Seldarine and Elistraee are strong.

As for how my character joined the party and got them to trust her, she joined in the fight when the party was ambushed by other drow and helped defeat them. Then she asked if there was a paladin in the group (there was), and had him use detect evil on her. She disguises herself as a moon elf, hides her true race from just about everyone unless she can get a paladin or cleric to cast spells to verify her story, and is pretty ruthless when it comes to evil enemies.

[Thomas]

[Edit] Hmmnn. Couldn't find anything and can't remember the source of this idea. All I could find was the (A)D&D version of events that suggests Elves were made by the 'Creator Races'.

There's some mention of a "fey" creator race, but I don't think they're credited with elves - and that'd contradict the more specific story (the order in which the elven peoples arrived is even given - the lythari and avariel were among the first three).

Alex: I am barely resisting nitpicking on your backstory... :smallbiggrin: I do like how you've sort of incorporated the fact that all dark elves of Ilythiir - including the innocent ones - were cursed by the Seldarine.

[Alex Knight]

Alex: I am barely resisting nitpicking on your backstory... :smallbiggrin: I do like how you've sort of incorporated the fact that all dark elves of Ilythiir - including the innocent ones - were cursed by the Seldarine.

As my character says with a hint of pride. "When Corellon lays down a curse, He doesn't screw around!"

Several of the other party members have said "Elvan, we know you're good, but your idea of good is kinda scary." :smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

I usally play my drow as self serving bastards. Every so often i will have a good one, but most are just out for themseves. i always make sure they have morals though, just twisted onces, like the stronge ruling over the weak or somthign to that effect. It been a bit of a running gag, that evey time i make an evil drow, a friend of mine tries to make a good character who's goal is to redeem my character. It is quite fun and we keep score
Redeemed
2
No effected
4
Neutral
3
Paladin killed
3
Drow killed
1 (paladin killed as well)
Its not always a paladin but you get the idea
From,
EE

[Arlanthe]

every time i make an evil drow


That's kind of our gripe. It's not just once or twice, or one or two good and/or evil Drow, it's Drow all the time. In my local gaming hole I've seen... hmm, one gnome this year? And three Drow. And two Dwarfs. And a pixie. And the Gnome is a standard race!

When was the last time you played, say, a Svirfneblin? Or a Duergar? Or a Gnome?

Boo Drow as PCs all the time.

[Talya]

Yeah, but gnomes are...gnomes!

Short races ftl! Especially uncharismatic ones like Dwarves and Svirfneblin!

Speaking of charismatic, are there stats for alu-fiends or succubi-descended tieflings anywhere? The charisma penalty associated with the standard tiefling is inappropriate for one with succubus in her blood...

[EvilElitest]

That's kind of our gripe. It's not just once or twice, or one or two good and/or evil Drow, it's Drow all the time. In my local gaming hole I've seen... hmm, one gnome this year? And three Drow. And two Dwarfs. And a pixie. And the Gnome is a standard race!

When was the last time you played, say, a Svirfneblin? Or a Duergar? Or a Gnome?

Boo Drow as PCs all the time.


I've played three Svirfneblin and two Duergar during a very long underdark champain. I died A LOT, but enjoyed it while i could
From,
EE

[Tobrian]

(...) about everybody's favorite stereotypical anti-stereotype, the good drow. (snip)

I finally nailed down what really bugs me about Drizzt and his bajillions of clones. Drizzt's moral compass aligns perfectly with the human idea of "good"--he is essentially a human ranger in prosthetic ears, black makeup, and a white wig. Oh, and lavender contact lenses. Never forget the lavender contact lenses. Did I mention he wears lavender contact lenses? So fascinating, the lavender contact lenses, that we have to hear about them every third freakin' page...

:smallbiggrin: Amen.

Drizzt is a freaking GARY STU (the male equivalent of a Mary Sue). Every time I browse one of the novels or comics featuring him, my Sue-dar is screaming. Just walk him through a MarySue lithmus test if you don't believe me. He's so goddamn perfect and all his friends love him. Bleh.

And he's emo on top of it. Shut up, Drizzt. Whine whine whine, all day long...
Seriously, if he was truly sick and tired of being attacked as an "evil drow" whereever he went by those mean prejudiced people who attack first and ask questions later... Hey Drizzt, how about buying yourself a goddamn Hat of Disguise or Amulet of Alter Self?? Then you can make a good first impression.
Now, I haven't read all those tedious Salvatore novels with their purple prose, but I'm pretty sure Drizzt never did think of that. And no fanboy playing a Drizzt clone ever does either, for the simple reason that they WANT to draw attention to the fact that their character is a dark elf... look at me, I'm a daaark elf!... and really, since the whole point of playing a fashion-victim drow warrior is because drow are being sold as sexy and wicked and cool, why would they "put him in the closet" and disguise him as a boring human? *Snerk*


Now, technically, I find the concept of an outcast from an "evil" race, someone who goes against racial stereotype and culture, quite interesting from a roleplaying perspective, provided the character has some potential to change and isn't just a mindless jerk; such a character might either quit his culture willingly because he never fit in in the first place, or be forced to flee from his own people because of his deviant ways and lack of enthusiasm for .

Or alternatively he might become a prisoner of the "Good Guys" by accident while still being evil-and-proud-of-it; at first he'd do his best to escape and kill them all in their sleep, but over time and if they treat him with compassion he might overcome his attitude and find himself thinking of them as friends, defending them against enemies, and eventually his worldview and moral outlook would change and he'd be able to see the world through their eyes... sometimes, such an alignment change can even happen very fast as result of one drastic or traumatic event which shatters all his preconcived notions of right and wrong.

But Salvatore and his Drizzt really quite ruined the "good darkelf" concept for me.

If I want to read about an anti-hero from an evil race, I prefer the CN drow Downer (from the comic strips in DUNGEON magazine), or Elric of Melniboné (at least that guy had reason to be moody, after all his runesword kept "accidentally" killing off his friends and lovers).

Alternatively, what about some drow assassin who's CE, but willing to kill anybody (including his own kin) and to work for anyone who offers him enough money? Even if it's a band of adventurers? Sure, he's an arch-traitor to his own people, but hey, with some ranks in bluff skill (and maybe an amulet that masks his alignment from divination spells) he might even convince the Good Guys that he has renounced his Evil Ways and wants to play for the other team. After all, sad but true, a lot of roleplayers and D&D game writers seem to believe that your alignment if primarily defined not by how you act or what you strive for but by what you oppose, so slaughtering lots of creatures that are predefined as "evil" makes you "good", QED. *sigh*

Let's face it, if one applied the same D&D corebook definitions of Evil to humans, a lot of people, heck whole governments or cultures both historical and contemporary, would qualify as evil. Some more enthusiastically evil than others... but the point is, outside of Superhero comics the villain rarely considers himself the bad guy. Entitlement, Manifest Destiny, laziness, racism, whatever...


Good drow/goblins/mind flayers/whatevers are aberrations in their society. As such, I think they ought to display aberrant behavior; they ought to act, well, kinda crazy. Bizarre superstitions, weird behavior patterns and hangups, a tendency to disparage the attitudes of good creatures and despise oneself for weakness, and so on.

What do people think? And if you agree, what sorts of aberrations do you think would be appropriate for the various "evil" races?

The main question, for me, is: Why is the race in question considered evil? Is it merely a bad reputation, or are they indeed a bunch of psychopaths and sadistic slavers bent on world domination? Is there an ideological or religious reason for their belief that they're entitled to rule the world, commit genocide and enslave everyone? Evil doesnt exist in a vacuum, unless you count all those supervillains of fantasy literature who are evil for the sake of it.

If they are all crazy evil selfish monstrous abominations to begin with - in that case, who does the house keeping, the cooking? Who cares for the children? Are there no farmers, craftsmen, librarians, artists etc? Do they use slaves for all those menial tasks, and eat their own infants if the offspring isn't ruthless enough? (See Mindflayers.)

Or is there an actual working culture beyond all the cruel wicked dominatrix-priestesses of Lloth and ruthless warrior-wizard combat drones that your average adventuring party from the Surface World gets to see? You can't tell me the drow don't have "normal people" like everyone else.

I know that some writers of drow novels are very keen on describing all drow as decadent and sadistic to the point of dysfunctionality... well, um, at least some of the stuff that I've read technically qualified as splatter-p0rn (Tzimisce Clanbook anyone?). *rolls eyes* But it gets old quickly. :smallyuk:


Once I know what makes the race tick, I can tackle the question how an outcast might respond to a worldview and culture different from his own. Is he an unrepentant sociopath who considers [I]not taking advantage of someone a weakness and can't ever fathom laughing at himself from time to time? Some players really love that sort of ultra-macho idiot jerkface type of character... makes them feel cool and powerful. (In that case, the character is well beyond hope of redemption.)

Or might he in fact respond well to a bit of kindness shown to him, especially if it comes with no ulterior motives attached? For someone who grew up as an underdog in a culture that praises ruthlessness, selfishness and stylish cruelty above all else, such an experience might be an eye-opener and have him crave for more. Yet tragically he might find that he craves being loved and being allowed to love back without having to look out for signs of betrayal all the time, but can't quite bring himself to trust his new friends enough. Like a starving man in front of a banquet who is afraid to eat for fear of the food being poisoned.

Or maybe he is like Downer (whom I mentioned above), who's quite happy with being a drow thankyouverymuch, and who takes everything with a sense of gallows humour because the world is full of people who want to screw him over; he always expects a good thing not to last, so he gets by on skill and luck (and some prudent running-the-hell-away if he has to). He enjoys meeting new people (provided they don't try to kill him) and holds no prejudices; while he has no qualms killing someone if he has to, he doesn't go out of his way to make other people's life miserable, and he takes no special delight in seeing someone suffer, unlike his brother.


As for races like orks, hobgoblins, kobolds etc, I don't view them as any more "racially evil" than humans on average. They fight humans, humans fight them. Humans have happily killed and enslaved each other for millennia. I've no trouble encorporating a NPC hobgoblin officer who is LN instead of LE into my campaign (I have done so on one occasion, and the PC paladin couldn't quite believe his own Sense Evil). I'm a behavioral biologist, no race could survive if all members blindly followed ONE strategy, especially if that strategy says "be always selfish". Game theory will tell you that can't work.

Therefore, I don't think that a non-evil hobgoblin needs to be punished by slapping some extreme behavioral hang-up on him.

A non-evil drow or fey'ri might have some paranoia of being "found inadequate", but on the other hand, it's not as if an "Alignment Officer" runs around with a wand of Detect Non-Evil and punishes everyone who doesn't conform to evil stereotype.

D&D can get rather extreme with all the alignment detection spells, and I find that quite ridiculous at times because I consider it metagaming forced down the players' throats by the rulebooks. But unless a race has some sort of anti-paladin class that ruthlessly slays anyone who doesn't register as evil enough, what's the problem?

The problem is attitude and world view.

If the real world teaches us anything, some people are very liberal, read: easily able to adapt to foreign cultures, willing to see things from the other person's point of view (without automatically condoning it). They do not suffer culture shock when they come upon customs alien to them. But there are other people... people who will do anything to stay in their comfort zone, to keep their cherished preconceived notions of values and of how the world works, people who are willing to kill rather than have their worldview shattered, because they feel imminently threatened by any idea that goes against what they've been taught to accept as true.

Such people either never change, or if they "see the light" they usually become very zealous in following their new path. Example: Saulus who having met Jesus because Paulus.

A previously evil creature that was forcefully turned "good" by mindcontrolling magic might indeed develop some sort of split personality.

Likewise, if it was possible to reverse the transformation that turns a humanoid into a mindflayer, what might the recovered victim think? Would he hold himself responsible for what the aberration did? Would he simply have amnesia, or suffer from nightmares? Both Stargate and Buffy the Vampire Slayer have tackled this question, both series have protagonists who were at a time possessed by Goa'uld, or demons, or used to be soulless vampires and later regained their soul.

I just never want to see a "morally reformed" illithid gently weeping into his salad.

[Tobrian]

It's no secret that I play with an all-monster party. (snip) These guys are mercenaries who only work for the good guys. (snip)

Sounds like you run a Spacemaster/Shadowrun campaign with D&D races. :smallwink:

I think people are more willing to accept strange alien races and not consider them automatically evil in Science Fiction than in Fantasy. A lot of Fantasy literature and games have this unfortunate tendency to despict whole races as evil and fit only to be eradicated... unless of course the protagonists of a novel are orks or something.


Just like I've recently discovered that a fair number of people on the board believe that role playing includes choosing feats and skills and dictating combat manuevers. While I feel those might have elements of role playing in them, they aren't role playing per se, anymore than writing a script is acting.

Amen.
I likewise react badly to people who tell me they're "roleplayers" and then I find out all they ever played is Baldur's Gate and World of Warcraft. But that's another topic entirely...

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the d20 system with its emphasis on leveling, "crunch", tactical combat and "optimizing" characters for the ultimate combination of feats, prestige classes and special effects has a huge influence on the gaming community, and it's starting to look like a step backward, storytelling-wise. While I welcomed the overhaul of D&D in general and like the d20 skill system (although it's adapted from other game systems that were around long before d20) I've noticed the symptoms of "optimizing disease" on myself. Rule systems do influence style of playing.

If the number of Drizzt clones with twin katanas in WotC freestyle RPG chatrooms was annoyingly high before (I played there from 1997 to 2001), now that everyone can play "sun-adapted" drow and half-demons and whatnot "legally" I guess the number of half-demon/half-dragon-drow-cyborg-catgirls will have exploded. :smallyuk: *headdesk*

...

Now, I admit, I've played a young CN fey'ri rogue/sorcerer in a monster-PC group some years ago, long before the fey'ri became "the new drow" aka. WotC's new designated cool bad guy race (check out the latest FR source books and modules if you don't believe me). And yes, I admit, I selected that race mainly because I love playing shapeshifters and shapeshifting spies, and as an added bonus they're pretty if they want to be (call me shallow). I still keep using the character as an occasional NPC in the group I run....

The "sexy evil dominatrix" has become quite as much a stereotype as the "as ugly as they're evil" races so common in Tolkien and D&D. Basically, fantasy lit has the "evil as the seducer" and "internal evil reflected in outside ugliness" cliches, and it's very hard to invent something new, because these two ideas go way back on religious fables and fairy tales, they're here to stay.

Problem is, with so many fantasy authors flooding the market for decades, can we gamers invent something new? Is it even possible to create a larger-than-life heroic fantasy character that doesn't look like a rip-off of something or other?

[Tobrian]

The Drow don't want acceptance, they want to work you to death in the adamantine mines, and then maybe have an oiled massage and a pit-fight before slaughtering babies for the glory of the Spider Queen.

If they all were exactly like that, decadent and sadistic for the sake of it, they'd be 1-dimensional villains from a 1980s movie.

Don't get me wrong, I never said I want drow to be nice. I agree that the majority of drow should be evil worshippers of some crazed goddess (otherwise where did all those stories come from?). And the mental image of well-oiled muscled elven males fighting in an arena to win the favour of some drow female and become her pleasure-bunny certainly has a certain... something *cough cough*. Probably whips will be involved at some point. :smallbiggrin:

But your description of them reminds me a lot of the ancient race of Melnibonéans from Michael Moorcock's Elric novels. Elric, their last king, practically wiped out his own race and razed their last remaining city because he believed that his people had become so dreadfully boring in their decadence and mindless lazy cruelty that they were doomed to extinction anyway. The "Prince of Ruins" indeed.

And he was considered "not evil enough" by the other Melnibonéans... fancy that. :smallwink:

[Gamebird]

Seriously, if he was truly sick and tired of being attacked as an "evil drow" whereever he went by those mean prejudiced people who attack first and ask questions later... Hey Drizzt, how about buying yourself a goddamn Hat of Disguise or Amulet of Alter Self?? Then you can make a good first impression.
Now, I haven't read all those tedious Salvatore novels with their purple prose, but I'm pretty sure Drizzt never did think of that. And no fanboy playing a Drizzt clone ever does either, for the simple reason that they WANT to draw attention to the fact that their character is a dark elf... look at me, I'm a daaark elf!...

When I ran a Vampire game, anyone who approached me about cross-gender playing was shown the clan "Malkavian" and the discipline "Obfuscate", level 3. That allows you to a continuous Disguise Self-affect, so a male could make himself look like a female, or vice versa, all the time. I was always turned down, because they didn't want to play a character everyone perceived in a certain way, they wanted to play a character who *was* that way.

I dunno. It's like people acting all nuts that the DM said their character was some other alignment than what the player thought the character was. Unless you're playing an alignment-restricted class, it really doesn't matter. Even if you are, if your character's actions have led to others having a certain perception of him (or her), then perhaps instead of complaining about it you should have your character change his actions in future.


If they are all crazy evil selfish monstrous abominations to begin with - in that case, who does the house keeping, the cooking? Who cares for the children? Are there no farmers, craftsmen, librarians, artists etc? Do they use slaves for all those menial tasks, and eat their own infants if the offspring isn't ruthless enough? (See Mindflayers.)

Or is there an actual working culture beyond all the cruel wicked dominatrix-priestesses of Lloth and ruthless warrior-wizard combat drones that your average adventuring party from the Surface World gets to see? You can't tell me the drow don't have "normal people" like everyone else.

I'd like to hear of someone playing "Ted, from accounting, the drow": a boring, menial drow who got left behind by his dominatrix drow masters because he was a worthless male accounting drone, not strong enough to cart off enough off [insert looted stuff here] that the drow wanted. They had a weight limit, or a teleportation limit, or he got separated, and he was jettisoned like so much trash.

Angry at the abandonment, but secretly wishing to return to his captors (those sexy things! and a healthy dose of Stockholm Syndrome), he has been forced to take up a role as an outsider and mercenary, which he is ill-suited to but learning out of sheer will. Necessity is the mother of invention.

That would be a cool character. Even if he was a drow.

[Matthew]

There's some mention of a "fey" creator race, but I don't think they're credited with elves - and that'd contradict the more specific story (the order in which the elven peoples arrived is even given - the lythari and avariel were among the first three).

Okay, found the reference, at last. It was in the (A)D&D The North Boxed Set (which can be downloaded from the Wizards Website for free). According to the fluff found there, Elves were created by one of the three creator races during the time of Thunder and on page eight, there is an off hand comment about the last of the pure blood Elves dying out through intermarriage with Humans. It appears to have occured after the Exodus, so presumably this only refers to the mainland.

[Woot Spitum]

Drizzt actually did find a magic mask that could make him look like a surface elf, he just discarded it because he wanted to be judged by who he was, not what he looked like. I'm serious.:smallyuk:

I always thought that the detect alignment spells only detected auras. The only types of PC with evil auras are evil clerics and blackguards.

[Fhaolan]

I'd like to hear of someone playing "Ted, from accounting, the drow": a boring, menial drow who got left behind by his dominatrix drow masters because he was a worthless male accounting drone, not strong enough to cart off enough off [insert looted stuff here] that the drow wanted. They had a weight limit, or a teleportation limit, or he got separated, and he was jettisoned like so much trash.

Angry at the abandonment, but secretly wishing to return to his captors (those sexy things! and a healthy dose of Stockholm Syndrome), he has been forced to take up a role as an outsider and mercenary, which he is ill-suited to but learning out of sheer will. Necessity is the mother of invention.

That would be a cool character. Even if he was a drow.

I'd play that. That would be entertaining.

[Tobrian]

I'd like to hear of someone playing "Ted, from accounting, the drow": a boring, menial drow who got left behind by his dominatrix drow masters because he was a worthless male accounting drone, not strong enough to cart off enough off [insert looted stuff here] that the drow wanted. They had a weight limit, or a teleportation limit, or he got separated, and he was jettisoned like so much trash.

Angry at the abandonment, but secretly wishing to return to his captors (those sexy things! and a healthy dose of Stockholm Syndrome), he has been forced to take up a role as an outsider and mercenary, which he is ill-suited to but learning out of sheer will. Necessity is the mother of invention.

That would be a cool character. Even if he was a drow.

Heh. :smallbiggrin: "a healthy dose of Stockholm Syndrome" Ouch. He's a drow nerd! I bet he has a Lloth pin-up poster on his bedroom wall!

I once toyed with the idea of writing a whole bunch of "Drow from all wakes of life" little stories, but abandoned it because i've become weary of fanfiction, wasnt sure if it wouldnt at some point encroach too far on Drizzt-territory or become a bit too R-rated, didnt want people to think I write drow because I'm a lame drow fangirl, and last but not least I just know that if I start inventing characters I will end up wanting to play them in RPG. And I dont have enough groups to do that. It's bad enough that I have one of them unlucky drow males now stuck in the unfinished-stories section of my brain and can't get him to bugger off.

Show those little drow a whip and they come crawling... it's like a Pavlovian conditioned reflex. :smallwink:

THere's actually a webcomic "Darken" that has a similar drow character, named Komiyan... cowardly, timid, in a frock coat (in later strips) and with glasses... who ran away from drowtown and became the unhappy thrall of a rather megalomaniac cruel human fighter and his adventuring group. Not quite an accountant, though, because he can fight already, probably a ranger, but he gets beat up a lot.
http://darkencomic.com/ Main Page
The artwork isn't the greatest, especially at the start, but it's an ok job, especially the colored pages.

*shrug*

Currently asa gamemaster I'm having fun with a young wimpy timid low-level wizard/expert NPC who has attached himself (for reasons too complicated to go into here) to my group's paladin of Heironeous as a squire because he is determined to become a might paladin himself, to vanquish evil etc! Heheh. Currently he's learning how to hold a sword without hurting himself, though. But the point is, even characters who don't look like adventuring material can make themselves useful in unexpected ways...

Why should it be different with drow? After all logic dictates that drow don't simply flash into existance as a 12th level fighter.

[Fhaolan]

Why should it be different with drow? After all logic dictates that drow don't simply flash into existance as a 12th level fighter.

What? But I was sure there was a Drow generator down in Mezzanine, or whatever that city is called, churning out 12th level fighter/ranger/barbarian dual-sword weilding whiny emo clones.

:smallbiggrin:

Truth be told, I don't run into many Drizzt clones. I run into more Dominatrix Drow Priestess clones (DDP). And these only at conventions, so I try to avoid playing D&D at conventions now-a-days.

There is nothing more disturbing that a 40-year old man playing a DDP.

Okay, correction, thanks to a memory I thought I had squashed. There is nothing more disturbing than a 40-year old man playing a Sub for another 40-year old man playing a DDP.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I always thought that the detect alignment spells only detected auras. The only types of PC with evil auras are evil clerics and blackguards.
Nope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm). Scroll down to the little table. Cleric/Paladin/Blackguard Auras are just stronger.

[Woot Spitum]

Doesn't evil creature refer to creatures that actually posess the evil subtype without falling into any of the other categories? I always thought it didn't apply to normal, everyday folk.

[EvilElitest]

I don't see the problem with Drizzt, as he is the first character. Drizzt clones i have a problem with, but Drizzt himself i really like as a character. The reason he does not what to be magiclly disgusied is becuase he does not what to be live a fake life, he wishes to be judged by who he is, he wants other to accept him as a Drow and come to terms with it. he basiclly views that kind of deceit as immoral. As to why he talks a lot and is very emotianal, he majored in phyocalphy (or how ever you spell it). I mean come on, what is so bad about listen to a guy devolp his character eh? It not all whine whine whine by the way, some real points are made their. And why is he not some anti-hero CN drow like everyone else want drow to be, simple, Salavtor did not want to play him that way. He simple wanted to write a story about a honestly good drow. Salvator intends him to be 1 in about 10 million, he does not want a massive amount of Drizzt clones. As to why he is upset about his race, he does not want people to love all Drow. He knows that most Drow are evil bastards, he just wants to let himself be accepted. That is a simple character idea. I mean the Drizzt idea is very simple, people seem to
1. Want him to be more complex and more evil, and less of a paladin.
2. Want people to play less complex concepts and not play evil races at all
What is wrong with playing him simply. He is a very good person, and is (according to Salvator) 1-10 million drow. Salvator started the trend and i don't think he should be held responsible for Drizzt clones.
From,
EE

Edite: and yes, the evil subtype is ment for creatures that ARE always evil, like demons and devil. Creatures that are the living inbodyment of evil have the evil subtype. Drow don't have it because they are simple elves who tend towards evil. Oh and Darken is a great comic.

[Pvednes]

If they all were exactly like that, decadent and sadistic for the sake of it, they'd be 1-dimensional villains from a 1980s movie.

Don't get me wrong, I never said I want drow to be nice. I agree that the majority of drow should be evil worshippers of some crazed goddess (otherwise where did all those stories come from?). And the mental image of well-oiled muscled elven males fighting in an arena to win the favour of some drow female and become her pleasure-bunny certainly has a certain... something *cough cough*. Probably whips will be involved at some point. :smallbiggrin:

But your description of them reminds me a lot of the ancient race of Melnibonéans from Michael Moorcock's Elric novels. Elric, their last king, practically wiped out his own race and razed their last remaining city because he believed that his people had become so dreadfully boring in their decadence and mindless lazy cruelty that they were doomed to extinction anyway. The "Prince of Ruins" indeed.

And he was considered "not evil enough" by the other Melnibonéans... fancy that. :smallwink:

Well, what with all the snakewhips and tentacle rods and femdom and whatnot, they are fairly B-movie. It's just that they're very entertainingly B-movie.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Doesn't evil creature refer to creatures that actually posess the evil subtype without falling into any of the other categories? I always thought it didn't apply to normal, everyday folk.
I've always read it as "creatures of Evil alignment", with "Evil Outsiders" covering things with the [Evil] subtype. Since, to my recollection, only Outsiders can have the [Evil] subtype.

[Foxer]

I vaguely remember a short story in Dragon many years back called The Only Good Orc. It was rather good, as I recall, and a nice way to play the 'only good member of an evil race' shtick. Anyone know if it's available anywhere?

[Attilargh]

I'd like to hear of someone playing "Ted, from accounting, the drow": a boring, menial drow who got left behind by his dominatrix drow masters because he was a worthless male accounting drone, not strong enough to cart off enough off [insert looted stuff here] that the drow wanted. They had a weight limit, or a teleportation limit, or he got separated, and he was jettisoned like so much trash.
You know, that kinda reminds me of a drow mage from one of Elaine Cunningham's novels featuring Liriel Baenre (http://www.elainecunningham.com/liriel_baenre.htm) (i.e. "The Other Good Drow"), Daughter of the Drow. He's a boring, timid old coot who hasn't stepped out of his chamber in decades and probably never been in a magical duel. I can't recall what happened to him after the book, though.

[Gamebird]

Drizzt actually did find a magic mask that could make him look like a surface elf, he just discarded it because he wanted to be judged by who he was, not what he looked like. I'm serious.:smallyuk:

Drizz't: "Here, you must see me as a drow, because I don't want to be judged by my looks!"
::Oxymoron police haul him off to the slammer::


I always thought that the detect alignment spells only detected auras. The only types of PC with evil auras are evil clerics and blackguards.


Doesn't evil creature refer to creatures that actually posess the evil subtype without falling into any of the other categories? I always thought it didn't apply to normal, everyday folk.

If you have an Evil alignment, then you have an Evil aura. It's just not as strong as the auras of Evil clerics, blackguards or [Evil] outsiders, who have their own lines on the table.

Interesting trivia: Undead always show up as Evil, even if their alignment is Neutral or Good.

[Scorpina]

You know, that kinda reminds me of a drow mage from one of Elaine Cunningham's novels featuring Liriel Baenre (http://www.elainecunningham.com/liriel_baenre.htm) (i.e. "The Other Good Drow"), Daughter of the Drow. He's a boring, timid old coot who hasn't stepped out of his chamber in decades and probably never been in a magical duel. I can't recall what happened to him after the book, though.

If I remember correctly...

He duels Nisstyre and ends up turning into a Lich after his flesh is disolved by lava.

[Attilargh]

If I remember correctly...

He duels Nisstyre and ends up turning into a Lich after his flesh is disolved by lava.
In that case, I did remember what happened to him, but thanks anyway. I wonder if he will ever make or has ever made a comeback? I'd really like to know more about him.[/offtopic]

[hewhosaysfish]

If I remember correctly...

He duels Nisstyre and ends up turning into a Lich after his flesh is disolved by lava.

Does he get robot golem body and go evil and be turn out to be the hero's father, really? :smallsmile:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Interesting trivia: Undead always show up as Evil, even if their alignment is Neutral or Good.
Same applies to the infamous Succubus Paladin, or any other redeemed Evil Outsider. Unless you choose to have a cosmology where Outsiders that change alignment change into equivalent Outsiders of the appropriate type, which I've heard many people posit out of dislike for Fallen Solars and Risen Succubi, etc.

Of course, they also show up on Detect Good, and I have no idea how Know Alignment works in this case.

[PirateMonk]

Does he get robot golem body and go evil and be turn out to be the hero's father, really? :smallsmile:

Yeah, Drizzt Vader can be a lich/golem.

Oh, and it's Drizzt, really. Does anyone know how the apostrophe got stuck in there?

[Fhaolan]

Oh, and it's Drizzt, really. Does anyone know how the apostrophe got stuck in there?

Yeah, it's a bit involved though.

Start from the fact there *is* an apostrophe in his name, just not the first name.

Second, most character clones use very similar names to the original character, most times simply re-arranging the letters in the name. In this particular case, the worst cloners just move the apostrophe around, thinking that is being 'creative'.

Third, more people have encountered the bad clones with the rearranged spellings than have read the original books. Or encountered the bad clones *before* reading the original books, giving the clone name spellings more 'weight' in their memory.

Add in the fact that many players (and authors) think cool fantasy names can be created by random collections of letters, regularly intersperced with punctuation just to make them feel more 'foreign'.

Finally, many people hate the clones, dislike the original character by extension for subjecting them to the clones, and resent the author for creating the character in the first place. Therefore, you end up with people honestly not knowing the correct spelling, and are unable to force themselves to care.

[PirateMonk]

To continue with Drizzt Vader: *Groan*

Concerned by the fact that Senator Cattie-Amidala's life span is significantly shorter than his own, Drizzt makes a deal with Cassius Palpatine, secretly a powerful LE magic user. Bruenor Windu catches wind of this and makes an attempt on the speaker's life. Drizzt, however, does nothing to save his friend as Palpatine unleashes dark powers on him. When he slaughter's an entire village of young wizards that Palpatine fears will become a threat, he seals his fate. He then tries to convince Cattie-Amidala to escape to the Underdark with him, but she flees, and, while pursuing her through the acid room, Drizzt encounter Obi Zak Kenobi, his old mentor, who helped recruit him from Menzoinezan, his home.
Meanwhile, Palpatine takes advantage of the incursions of the Orc Confederacy, led by Count Obould, to justify building an army loyal only to him, and, eventually, declare himself King of Icewind Dale. However, Yoda Regis, a....

Wow, this does hurt.

[EvilElitest]

Drizz't: "Here, you must see me as a drow, because I don't want to be judged by my looks!"
::Oxymoron police haul him off to the slammer::





If you have an Evil alignment, then you have an Evil aura. It's just not as strong as the auras of Evil clerics, blackguards or [Evil] outsiders, who have their own lines on the table.

Interesting trivia: Undead always show up as Evil, even if their alignment is Neutral or Good.

Ok about the first comment, as a Native American, i would like to point out that i view hiding your race a bit sinful. I might just be me, but i have a friend who is a African-American who has had some probelms because of his race (i will not mention because of his privercy) and he hates MJ with a passion for just that reason. Am I strange in thinking changings ones phyical apperence shameful? I am light skinned and so i have never been in any situation where i have been repressed because of my race so i can't really say but i always stuch me as cowardly....
True the different with Drizzt is that he race deserves the hatred of others while African-Americans don't but...

As for the evil outsider note, in standard D&D a (with the possible expection of Ebberon) you can't have a good sucubus, thank gods. They are pure incartantion of evil. Some undead can be neutural and the rare can be good (vampire in the mists example) but it is extreamlly rare, much more rare than good drow, with the exception of the Forsakon, who are not even from D&D. But most outsiders (not all, like the gith races but most) are unable to change their aligments, becuause they are the living embodment of that alignment.
From,
EE

[Piedmon_Sama]

Entreri is kewler!

[Nerd-o-rama]

As for the evil outsider note, in standard D&D a (with the possible expection of Ebberon) you can't have a good sucubus, thank gods. They are pure incartantion of evil. Some undead can be neutural and the rare can be good (vampire in the mists example) but it is extreamlly rare, much more rare than good drow, with the exception of the Forsakon, who are not even from D&D. But most outsiders (not all, like the gith races but most) are unable to change their aligments, becuause they are the living embodment of that alignment.
From,
EE
That's a way of interpreting it, sure. But remember in D&D, "Always" alignment doesn't mean Always this alignment. I don't find it odd at all that one in a million Angels or Archons fall to Evil, or that the one in a million Fiends may alter his nature in the course of his millenia-long lifespan. Hell, Angels becoming Lawful Neutral in their desire to expediently exterminate Evil, or mercenary Devils breaking with their hierarchy and becoming Neutral Evil, is a fairly common theme in the old Planescape setting, which emphasized shades of grey in a multiverse of proveable absolute morality.

But, saying "no, Fallen Angels and Risen Fiends cannot happen" is a perfectly legitimate way to run things, although it'd take half the fun out of Planescape if you tried it there.

[PirateMonk]

Entreri is kewler!

Maybe. I'd say Jarlaxle is better than either.

[EvilElitest]

That's a way of interpreting it, sure. But remember in D&D, "Always" alignment doesn't mean Always this alignment. I don't find it odd at all that one in a million Angels or Archons fall to Evil, or that the one in a million Fiends may alter his nature in the course of his millenia-long lifespan. Hell, Angels becoming Lawful Neutral in their desire to expediently exterminate Evil, or mercenary Devils breaking with their hierarchy and becoming Neutral Evil, is a fairly common theme in the old Planescape setting, which emphasized shades of grey in a multiverse of proveable absolute morality.

But, saying "no, Fallen Angels and Risen Fiends cannot happen" is a perfectly legitimate way to run things, although it'd take half the fun out of Planescape if you tried it there.

What i do is if an angle becomes evil, they become a fiend. Example, if a LG angle turns to the ways of evil, then she becomes a devil. if a devil become NE, il make them become a yugloth or a daemon (in my world, daemons are "any evil") dependeing on the situation. But you can't have a LE Solar, they would change into a pitfiend.

Creatuses like Gith who are outsider humoniods can change their aligment withou a problem, and some undead have not problem, but the majority of creatures with the "always evil" have to stay that way. I make a few changes with things like bog imp (heros of horror) but i don't allow a good balor.

In my world, should a demon ever commmit a good deed without any reason to, example: an imp who saves his master even though he gains nothing from it, two things happen
If the demon did it without thinking or by mistake, the they no longer exist. They were created to serve the powers of Chaos and Evil, and so when the don't follow their purpose they no long exist.
If they commited the act willlfully and aware of their possible demise, then they change into a good creatures of the same CR. They are not longer CE, and now must serve a new power

In the same note, i don't allow players to use any creature that can't be a certain alignment, because i view it as restricting on roleplaying purposes. If a human paladin can't do somthing because of his aligment, well he chose the class, but if a solar fighter is held to the same restriction without reason well....
From,
EE

[Rabiesbunny]

Maybe. I'd say Jarlaxle is better than either.


Jarlaxle OWNS all other drow. Hawtness incarnate!

[Woot Spitum]

In my world, should a demon ever commmit a good deed without any reason to, example: an imp who saves his master even though he gains nothing from it, two things happen
If the demon did it without thinking or by mistake, the they no longer exist. They were created to serve the powers of Chaos and Evil, and so when the don't follow their purpose they no long exist.
If they commited the act willlfully and aware of their possible demise, then they change into a good creatures of the same CR. They are not longer CE, and now must serve a new power

From,
EE

An imp can save its master without changing its alignment since he can do this for entirely selfish reasons. Serving an evil master promotes evil and provides the imp with a chance to be a part of a larger evil scheme. Losing his master leaves the imp stranded. Plus a familiar can be severly harmed by the death of its master when the bond between them is severed.

[Nerd-o-rama]

EvilElitist: Yeah, that's one of the two main ways of doing it, and one that makes a lot of sense: if an alignment-subtyped Outsider's nature changes, he changes into a different creature to match his new one, since all they are is alignments incarnate.

Personally, I'm running an Eberron campaign, and while their is a specific creature for fallen-and-banished-to-the-Material Angel (the Radiant Idol), I do play fast and loose with some of the alignment rules. Succubi can turn Lawful Evil and act as loyal spies for the Lords of Dust without turning into Erinyes, for example.

Also, now that I've looked up what the Radiant Idol actually is, there will be a pair of them named Loki and Bartleby in my game. Heh.

[EvilElitest]

An imp can save its master without changing its alignment since he can do this for entirely selfish reasons. Serving an evil master promotes evil and provides the imp with a chance to be a part of a larger evil scheme. Losing his master leaves the imp stranded. Plus a familiar can be severly harmed by the death of its master when the bond between them is severed.

No it is not saving a master, saving a master for completly unselfish reason.
Example
A wizard who want to retire and therefor has not more use for the imp, having already sold his soul is about to be hit by an arrow. If hte imp takes the hit, even if he does not die, he commited a good act for selfless reasons, therefor he is not a demon.

[Dhavaer]

therefor he is not a demon.

If it's an imp, it's not a demon anyway. Imps are LE.

[EvilElitest]

If it's an imp, it's not a demon anyway. Imps are LE.

my bad, i ment devil
from,
EE

[Wehrkind]

There is nothing more disturbing that a 40-year old man playing a DDP.

Okay, correction, thanks to a memory I thought I had squashed. There is nothing more disturbing than a 40-year old man playing a Sub for another 40-year old man playing a DDP.
Yea, that is why I NEVER play ANY roleplaying games with people I don't hang out with otherwise. It's funny when your buddy plays a halfling with a foot fetish. It's not funny when you have to tell a fat man you will cut him if he touches you again.

I am now taking requests for extremely mundane character concepts and back stories. "Cathy the Clerk" who was kidnapped from her town during a raid, only to be saved from the brigands by adventurers who sold her to the first caravan when they found out she was ugly and not plot centric, and now works odd jobs tending supplies and receipts and is learning to be a cleric from the caravan's medic.
"Larry the Trim"- half elf barber from the city of Silverymoon (Half Elf Rogue/Bard 2/3). Being the only normal looking fellow in the county, he became a barber to make money grooming all the fabulously gorgeous Ed Greenewood written nympho's in the city. After years of frustration being every womans "best friend" who they complain to about their "ashole boyfriends" while he does their hair, he slowly slid into bitterness and evil. After traveling to visit his overbearing mother two villages over (she needed her foot salts), he returned to find the Mythal would not let him enter the city. Realizing with horror who he had become, he travels from town to town, giving free style advice and general personal hygiene/medical advice to the locals, as well as accompanying adventurers on missions to make ends meet. He still retains his air of superiority, reacting poorly when people question his (often questionable) medical advice, frequently yelling "Who's the barber here?!" in the face of doubt.

[EvilElitest]

Yea, that is why I NEVER play ANY roleplaying games with people I don't hang out with otherwise. It's funny when your buddy plays a halfling with a foot fetish. It's not funny when you have to tell a fat man you will cut him if he touches you again.

I am now taking requests for extremely mundane character concepts and back stories. "Cathy the Clerk" who was kidnapped from her town during a raid, only to be saved from the brigands by adventurers who sold her to the first caravan when they found out she was ugly and not plot centric, and now works odd jobs tending supplies and receipts and is learning to be a cleric from the caravan's medic.
"Larry the Trim"- half elf barber from the city of Silverymoon (Half Elf Rogue/Bard 2/3). Being the only normal looking fellow in the county, he became a barber to make money grooming all the fabulously gorgeous Ed Greenewood written nympho's in the city. After years of frustration being every womans "best friend" who they complain to about their "ashole boyfriends" while he does their hair, he slowly slid into bitterness and evil. After traveling to visit his overbearing mother two villages over (she needed her foot salts), he returned to find the Mythal would not let him enter the city. Realizing with horror who he had become, he travels from town to town, giving free style advice and general personal hygiene/medical advice to the locals, as well as accompanying adventurers on missions to make ends meet. He still retains his air of superiority, reacting poorly when people question his (often questionable) medical advice, frequently yelling "Who's the barber here?!" in the face of doubt.

That is unspeakable funny. you should write for FR.
from,
EE
P.S. I hate Ed Greenwoods writing style so much........!

[Piedmon_Sama]

Lemme give you this, then

Strom Innsroad, Male Human Fighter (going for Reaping Mauler PrC)

Backstory:
Strom of Innsroad was born in 981 to a prosperous tavernkeeper in the tiny hamlet of Innsroad. (His mother died when he was young, leaving him with only one little brother.) Although he was due to inherit the inn and tavern that had been his family's for generations, Strom was an athletic child with good muscles.

On the other hand, though it was a small peasant village, Innsroad lay on the path to the Western Barrens. In this hill country lay the ruins and treasures of an ancient kingdom, and so a stop-start stream of mercenaries and fortune-seekers often blew through. Their boisterousness and arrogance gave Strom a low opinion of landless adventurers, and the fact that few ever returned convinced him of the foolishness of their enterprise.

By the time he was a young man, Strom was in a serious relationship with Anne, the carpenter's daughter. He was also a local champion in amateur boxing, having defeated other young bucks from his hometown and surrounding villages. His fortune was set, and life was good. Until.... Lord Brandon Highwater rolled into town.

Lord Highwater was a nobleborn adventurer who's fame was known across the nation. It was he who had slain the Necromancer Galen Rotten-Jaw, and his ingenious leadership had beaten back the Orcish Incursion of '92. His sword, Whiteflame, was almost as renowned. What maiden would resist the charms of such a figure?

Indeed Highwater spent but one night in Innsroad and left with Anne the carpenter's daughter under his arm. Strom didn't take it well. Incensed, he demanded permission from his father (a mild-mannered sort) to go abroad, and received it, giving his little brother his share of the inheritance. It didn't matter--fortune and fate meant nothing to his wounded heart, only revenge.

Though he'd had little care for their sort, Strom had served many a cadre of sellswords and adventurers in his youth. He recalled old stories of a band known as the Reaping Maulers--warriors who wielded no swords, but relied only on the steel of their arms to shatter an enemy's arms and crush his body. For a peasant who had neither the funds nor legal right to bare arms, this was the perfect opportunity: spending the last of his coin on a jerkin of studded leather, Strom donned the ward cesti that had seen him through so many fights in the amateur circuit and set out to train. When he was ready, he promised, he would avenge his wounded heart, and prove that even a commoner could stand up for his pride against the highest noble.

Strom had to travel through several provinces before he at last came into contact with one of the Reaping Maulers. It was they who found him, having heard a young man was seeking them out. A representative of the fearsome gang explained that to join and begin training in their style, Strom would have to best three creatures of great size and strength in unarmed combat. He agreed, and now quests for the adventure that will bring him into such battles.

Personality: Strom tends to be temperamental, but affable and generous when in good humor. He has negligable education, but is versed in some practical trades and tends to carry on like he's experienced and seen more than he really has. He dislikes risk-takers, gamblers, and hotheads of all sorts, without realizing he is one himself. He is moral and proud of it, loyal to comrades as a point of pride. On the other hand, he has no skill at fine speech and tends to come across as shamelessly uncouth, although he at least tries when around women, and he is respectful to men of rank. You could call him an old-fashioned hero type and not be far wrong, but he certainly doesn't see himself as heroic.

If Strom's pride is injured, he will not rest until the slight is avenged. (Indeed, his whole quest boils down to humiliating the noble who stole his girl.) On the other hand, he would tell anyone who asked that "pride is for fools," and doesn't seem to see the discrepancy. He likes his friends to keep safe and chides them if they take foolish risks, but thinks nothing of diving in the way of danger himself.

Notes: While Strom is mechanically proficient with martial weapons, according to his backstory he wouldn't know how to wield them, shields, or medium and heavy armor. Off the bat I would go for Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple to reflect his training as a boxer (I'm talking about the ancient style, no-holds-barred boxing here) and Clever Wrestling to get into his target prestige class. Mechanically, his ward cesti are gauntlets, but they take the appearance of leather bracers with a studded band over the knuckles.

[Wehrkind]

Note, I will have to make a new feat/craft skill combo.
Feat: Barberous Mastery
Requires: Craft(Hair Style):10, Bluff:10.
Effect: The barber becomes learns to combine their ability to create fabulous and impressive hair styles with an uncanny ability convince others of how great they look.
Given 5 minutes, the barber can style one person's hair. Roll a Craft(Hair Style) check against DC 30 and a DC 20 Bluff check, with a +1 bonus per extra 5 minutes of work. If successful, the recipient of the styling has hair so fabulous, so awe inspiring, they gain a +2 charisma modifier and +1 skill check modifier due to their new confidence.
Note: If the hair style is ruined in some way (submerged in water, burned off, placed under a helmet etc) the bonus is lost in relation to all other characters, but until the character realizes their hair is ruined (looks in a mirror or puddle), their now unwarrented confidence remains.
Failure of the Craft check but success at the Bluff check results in a sub-par style but a recipient convinced they are in fact "All that, and a bag of iron rations", with the same effect as unwittingly ruining the style above.

[PirateMonk]

I found another example of evil people turned good, but it's Hindu. I think I could get away with it, but...

[Tobrian]

Since the thread title mentions both "drow" and "stereotypes", let me talk about something that annoys me even more than encountering Drizzt clones with twin katanas:
Drizzt clones (with twin katanas) that are way over 6 feet tall and build like brick walls! Trust me, I've seen several during my time in WotC's freestyle RPG chatrooms.

I haven't done more than page through some of Salvatore's Drizzt novels, so I don't know if the problem of freakishly tall drow started with his original Gary-Stu drow ranger... after all, maybe Salvatore thought that having a tragic protagonist who only comes up to his human buddy's chest wasn't sufficiently macho. :smallamused:

While Faerunian elves in the Forgotten Realms setting are slightly taller than "standard" World of Greyhawk elves, and Faerunian half-elves can be as tall as humans, all canon material about the drow states that they're smaller and thinner than their surface kin (I also seem to recall seeing an entry that male drow are smaller than the females, but I can't locate it). See also the artwork in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting

As per the Forgotten Realms supplement Races of Faerun entry for drow (page 34) and the table on page 32 of the Player's Guide to Faerun (3.5), FR drow have the same vital statistics (height, weight life, expectancy) as the standard elves from the PHB (4'5'' plus 2d6), while other Faerunian elves are as tall or only slightly smaller than the various human ethnicities (4'10'' plus 2d10). So that makes your average drow 4'11'' tall, less than five foot! Even a tall drow would only reach 5'5'', the height of a medium-sized European woman. (I myself am 5'4'', and I've met women and men who were smaller than me.)

Face it, fanboys; your drow assassin may be as graceful as a cat, sharp like a knife, cruel and sociopathic as you like... he's still this tiny little pointy-eared guy with a knife! Aww, cute. :smallbiggrin:

[Nerd-o-rama]

For the record, Drizzt himself is generally portrayed as a small, graceful man (in the text, if not the usually horrendous cover art.) My (non-fanboy) mental picture places him around five-six or five-seven. Which, looking at that last post, is around max height for a Drow, but I haven't read none of yer fancy FRCS.

For big and beefy, talk to Wulfgar.

Any super-height is the work of the copycats, not the original author.