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Dausuul
2007-01-29, 10:20 AM
So... the recent discussion about vampires on the "Worst Races Ever" thread got me thinking about everybody's favorite stereotypical anti-stereotype, the good drow. Not to mention good goblins, mind flayers, et cetera.

I finally nailed down what really bugs me about Drizzt and his bajillions of clones. Drizzt's moral compass aligns perfectly with the human idea of "good"--he is essentially a human ranger in prosthetic ears, black makeup, and a white wig. Oh, and lavender contact lenses. Never forget the lavender contact lenses. Did I mention he wears lavender contact lenses? So fascinating, the lavender contact lenses, that we have to hear about them every third freakin' page...

...ahem. Anyway.

Good drow/goblins/mind flayers/whatevers are aberrations in their society. As such, I think they ought to display aberrant behavior; they ought to act, well, kinda crazy. Bizarre superstitions, weird behavior patterns and hangups, a tendency to disparage the attitudes of good creatures and despise oneself for weakness, and so on.

What do people think? And if you agree, what sorts of aberrations do you think would be appropriate for the various "evil" races?

squishycube
2007-01-29, 10:24 AM
Lords of Madness lists some good ones for Beholders and Mind Flayers. That book is really worth it!

I pretty much agree with what you said, with one small addition: It is possible that one of the abberations of the Drow becomes very much like a western human, it is a bit unlikely though.

Indon
2007-01-29, 10:29 AM
Considering that D&D utilizes an objective morality, wouldn't _all_ good characters be 'good' by those terms?

Personally, I think there needs to be more underground 'good' movements in evil cultures.

NPC: "It's a good thing we found you, sirs. If the guards..."

PC: "Wait, who are you?"

NPC: "We're clerics of Pelor!"

PC: "But... you're Illithid!" *goes insane*

NPC: "Oh, dear, we've done it again, haven't we?"

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-29, 10:33 AM
I think that you are forgetting that Drizzt was trained by a human when he got to the surface and lived among good creatures (deep gnomes) for a time underground. I think his actions and attitudes are warranted. But all the clones out there can get a little silly except for the fact that the Drow do have a good Goddess (illustrae sp?) that makes sense for some of them to be good and have attitudes that reflect their races former surface life.

Gamebird
2007-01-29, 10:35 AM
Nah, we don't need more obnoxious stereotypically not-like-the-rest-of-my-people folk. Just toss the objective part of the D&D morality and you're good to go.

Saph
2007-01-29, 10:41 AM
If you're determined to play a drow, Chaotic Neutral makes much more sense than Chaotic Good. It's only one step away from the normal drow alignment, so it's more likely that families of that type would have the chance to bring up children in the first place (as opposed to, say, sacrificing them all to Lolth, which would be the likely fate of most good drow).

Also, if you're a drow and try and live on the surface of Faerun, you are going to be hated by just about everyone you meet. You can't really blame them, either. If 99% of the drow encountered on the surface are Chaotic Evil slave-takers who'll happily murder you and enslave your family, most people are not going to spend much time considering whether you might be one of the 1%, especially given how good drow are at deception and tricks.

So your surface-dwelling drow is going to be, generally speaking, hated by both his birth society and every other society too. Now given all that, how likely is it that he's going to have an altruistic, let's-help-people attitude?

I'm not saying it's impossible - I actually like Drizzt as a character - but you would have to be close to a saint to maintain a good alignment under those conditions. So while a CG drow isn't impossible, it should be very, very rare.

The same applies to all player characters of seriously evil races. It can make for some good RPing, but you should understand that your life's going to be VERY difficult. I'd encourage a player to do it if I thought he really knew what he was doing, but I'd also make his life hell as a GM. Because that's just the way things are.

- Saph

headwarpage
2007-01-29, 10:44 AM
I wouldn't say good creatures from an evil society should really be aberrant, though they could be. It's equally likely that they'd be more rational than most people - they've thought about the moral ramifications of things, and come to an independent conclusion, which happens to differ from the attitude typical of their race.

My approach would be to give them some holdovers - cultural things they were raised with, and haven't seen any reason to reject. A good drow could really like spiders - they're not evil, and he's comfortable around them, more so than with the strange furry surface animals. There's a lot of cultural bias that isn't really good or evil, just different, and good creatures from evil societies should hold on to some of it.

Alternately, come up with a moral standard that can be applied semi-objectively. "The greatest good for the greatest number," or something like that. Now, think of things that seem absolutely, horribly wrong, but could be argued as not being wrong under a strict interpretation of your moral standard. For instance, a reformed ogre might see absolutely nothing wrong with eating the flesh of sapient creatures who had died in battle or of natural causes (but wouldn't be willing to kill them for food). I mean, they weren't using it any more, and it tastes good. And besides, something was going to eat it anyway - worms if nothing else. So why not him?

Thomas
2007-01-29, 11:03 AM
The good drow goddess is Eilistraee.

I've got nothing against good drow - they're an established racial minority with their own small communities in Faerūn. They're found in the High Forest, presumably in the Elven Court, and in Skullport (under Waterdeep; they have a temple run by one of the Chosen of Mystra there). Eilistraee is not really any different from the Seldarine, so I'd expect good drow to display good elven morality (which seems to be the same as human morality). I conceive of them as, essentially, pre-Crown Wars dark elves, except with the appearance of drow (and, since the 3rd edition, the abilities of drow; in AD&D, they lost those abilities once they'd lived on the surface for a while).

Like Indon points out, D&D alignment-based morality is pretty objective, so Good-aligned characters are going to share a lot of basic values.


Non-humans having human morality at all is the real issue (but, again, objective morality in the D&D cosmology...). There's no logic by which Good members of "evil races" should appear crazy to a human observer; they do appear crazy to their own people already. I like the drow of the War of the Spider Queen novels much better than the crap actually written by Salvatore - those writers do make an effort (so far as their mediocre skills as story-tellers allow) to present drow as having their own, unique, and internally consistent thought and behavior patterns and morality.

For a cool look at non-human amorality (definitely Evil, in D&D alignments), read Moorcock's Elric of Melniboné (it's got the most Melnibonéan amorality in the least pages; the rest of series has more, obviously). Even Elric, who is interested in understanding human philosophy and morality, has trouble grasping it, and never really comes to regard humans humans as his equals or life as intrinsically precious. Again and again he goes back to the capriciousness (and occasional subtle savagery) of his own people.


I much prefer non-humans that really aren't human. For Gloranthan dwarves, Good means mechanically performing your assigned tasks for your entire life, and avoiding all contact with the outside world; Evil means interacting (or worse, trading with) non-dwarves, and actually living with and behaving like a non-dwarf is inconceivable. For elves, being Good requires pretty much nothing - staying in the elven forests, working, eating, procreating, and listening to the "Song" is enough; while Evil is turning away from "Song," and leaving the forest, becoming "rootless." For trolls, eating everything you can catch (including other trolls, basically) and obeying your Mother is Good; harming children or mothers is anathema. For all of these cultures, an individual deviating from the accepted behavioural norms is a crazy aberration; and for humans, those aberrants are still incomprehensibly alien and non-human.

ExHunterEmerald
2007-01-29, 11:15 AM
Dunno about stereotypes, but I do have a desire to play the anti-Drizzt.
My angle so far is a Lawful Evil devil exactly like the rest of his race, wielding a finessable weapon one-handed.

GolemsVoice
2007-01-29, 11:23 AM
I could think of a redeemed mindflayer, as presented in the Book of Exalted Deeds, who won't harm a fly, likes flowers and wears pretty pink, but is annoying, and likes to command. He was the master of pupets for all of his live, he used to push people around, eat their brains, do illithid stuff. Now, he can't see why people don't agree with his sense of good. For example, he will rather beat the corrupt guard a little than arguing with him and trying to find a way to talk him into the good cause. The guard obviously was an idiot, why bother? The "real" good heroes might find that tasteless and needlessly cruel, but for Mr. Illithid it's the way good can be spread.

Scorpina
2007-01-29, 11:34 AM
(and, since the 3rd edition, the abilities of drow; in AD&D, they lost those abilities once they'd lived on the surface for a while).

I believe that can be explained through reference to the Starlight & Shadows trilogy, ICwise. Of course, that's probably more of a coincidence than any sort of planning on Wizard's part...

Fhaolan
2007-01-29, 11:51 AM
I wouldn't say good creatures from an evil society should really be aberrant, though they could be. It's equally likely that they'd be more rational than most people - they've thought about the moral ramifications of things, and come to an independent conclusion, which happens to differ from the attitude typical of their race.

There's an assumption here, that creatures choose Good due to rational thought around moral ramifications. Since 'Good', 'Evil', 'Lawful', and 'Chaotic' have actual physical effects and presense in D&D (Outsiders, detect spells, and the like), one is as rational as the other. Morality and ethics become very strange and in many cases absurd. RL morality, ethics, and philosophy don't really apply to D&D due to the obvious and accepted existance of pure representations of those alignments. Philosophy as we understand it probably wouldn't exist in a D&D world. Why philosophize when you can use a spell to actually ask a 'real' God and get a divinitive answer? (Yes, I spelled the word wrong deliberately, getting two puns in one. :smallsmile: )

Being Good in an Evil society is just as rational as being Evil in a Good society, as being Lawful in a Chaotic society, as being Chaotic in a Lawful society.

Thomas
2007-01-29, 12:51 PM
I believe that can be explained through reference to the Starlight & Shadows trilogy, ICwise. Of course, that's probably more of a coincidence than any sort of planning on Wizard's part...

Can you elaborate? I don't read D&D / AD&D novels as a rule, so I don't understand the reference.

I'd bet my money it's a combination of now having LA as a system to balance drow PCs (in AD&D, they just had to have their drow abilities taken away), and of forgetting / not thinking.

I'd compare the issue to the problems with drow levitation in switching to third edition:

"Oh, they can't all levitate anymore. Uh, they all have magical brooches that let them do it at will. Except in the game, since that'd be too expensive. Oh, actually, let's give them a feat that gives them back levitation and the other noble/high-level drow powers; lets make antoher fear that lets them break the levitation up into 1-minute uses..."

Dairun Cates
2007-01-29, 02:11 PM
The same applies to all player characters of seriously evil races. It can make for some good RPing, but you should understand that your life's going to be VERY difficult. I'd encourage a player to do it if I thought he really knew what he was doing, but I'd also make his life hell as a GM. Because that's just the way things are.

- Saph

Kinda like how one of my players knew what she was doing when she picked an advertised chronic alcoholic for her servant/sidekick in a BESM campaign. She can't blame me if he's drunk by 11 am and he wakes up at 10:30, but it DOES make for a good dramatic foil.

From a gameplay standpoint, I'd have to say I agree. The rebelling groups would move more likely one step away. A CG drow should be 1 in a million. However, that's the real issue, isn't it? Players want to play unique individuals. Heroes that stick out among Heroes. Often times, the I'm one of maybe ten of my kind is the easiest cliche to fall back on. This isn't really shocking either. Characters before they develop are cliches. They're a portal to a more interesting character. Hell, classes are cliches in and of themselves.

So, I say let it be, and if it's going to disrupt a campaign element or you that much, explain to the player that they just won't fit in the campaign. All in all, it's no more annoying than all the half-demons, werewolves, and vampires PC's running around.

Indon
2007-01-29, 04:03 PM
For a cool look at non-human amorality (definitely Evil, in D&D alignments), read Moorcock's Elric of Melniboné (it's got the most Melnibonéan amorality in the least pages; the rest of series has more, obviously). Even Elric, who is interested in understanding human philosophy and morality, has trouble grasping it, and never really comes to regard humans humans as his equals or life as intrinsically precious. Again and again he goes back to the capriciousness (and occasional subtle savagery) of his own people.


The Eternal Champion would provide interesting material for an analysis of D&D morality, IMO.

Elric, for instance. Definitely not evil, probably not good either, but with very strong principle. I'd go with a lawful neutral (trending good, but he's too apathetic to the affairs of others), disgusted at his decadent, chaotic evil society.

The following presumes you've read the original story about Erekose.

So if you're the leader of the armies of your race and you're at war with a foreign race, only to realize that your race are the aggressors and evil and that the foreign race is collectively good and only losing because they're actively pacifistic, what alignment are you if you swap sides and proceed to exterminate your own species?

Scorpina
2007-01-29, 08:41 PM
Can you elaborate? I don't read D&D / AD&D novels as a rule, so I don't understand the reference.

Basically, the main character in the novel fullfills a quest to carry her Drow magic with her to the surface, but in doing so allows all Drow (at least Drow from Menzoberranzan) to do the same, though it's implied that the ruling houses do what they can to keep it secret.

jjpickar
2007-01-29, 10:07 PM
I think the reason drow should stay the way they were designed to be, in regards to alignment, derives itself from the War of the Spider Queen Books.

Simply put, it rocks my socks. Evil drow are without question, in my mind, some of the coolest creatures in all of Faerun. Drizzit (pronounced "Jennifer") annoys the nine hells out of me.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-29, 10:11 PM
Ah, Drizzt. Out to prove that you can't judge people's alignment by their physical appearance. Yet you can tell that he's good because his eyes are a different color than all the other drow's.

Wehrkind
2007-01-29, 10:12 PM
Fhaolin (again) makes the point I was goingto make.

There is not "faith" as we define it in D&D. There is fact and knowledge in it's place. The people of the world know their gods exist the same way I know Angela Merkel exists. The can send Torm a letter and see what he thinks is good, just as I can send her a letter, and likely they will get a response. Since the actions of the gods directly affect the people's lives, it is perfectly rational to serve them in exchange.

Old school Dragonlance where the gods were conspicuously absent is closer to a real world analogue, and even then not so much.

Talk to someone very serious about their religion sometime. They "KNOW" God (Allah, whomever) exists the same way they "KNOW" George Bush exists. Their only question is what does he want me to do?
In D&D they have the advantage of getting their gods to return their calls in terms of "What Would Thor Do?" That makes their requirements for matching their god's allignment pretty simple.

Perhaps there is still room for philosophy, but it would be centered around "Which god is best?" and/or "Do we need to follow a god?" (The answer to the latter is "Yes, if you don't want to be made into a wall after death.")

Fhaolan
2007-01-29, 11:37 PM
Fhaolin (again) makes the point I was goingto make.

I've got to stop doing that. Don't want to steal your thunder. :smallsmile:

Thunder, thunder, thundercats ho!

Okay, dating myself there...

Wehrkind
2007-01-29, 11:58 PM
DRAT! That was EXACTLY what I thought after "Steal your thunder".... right after "No! Not Lionel!"

The_Snark
2007-01-30, 12:49 AM
Considering that D&D utilizes an objective morality, wouldn't _all_ good characters be 'good' by those terms?

Personally, I think there needs to be more underground 'good' movements in evil cultures.

NPC: "It's a good thing we found you, sirs. If the guards..."

PC: "Wait, who are you?"

NPC: "We're clerics of Pelor!"

PC: "But... you're Illithid!" *goes insane*

NPC: "Oh, dear, we've done it again, haven't we?"

In general, I think you're right. There's always evil people in good societies; cults, evil nobles working the system for all it's worth, criminals. No reason there shouldn't be drow nobles subtly trying to change the way their House thinks about the world, secret followers of Eilistraee, and... undercover charity workers? Well, maybe not the last one, but the first two make sense. The first would make an interesting NPC.

In your specific example, however: Elder brains. Good illithids can't really live in illithid communities. It's like trying to be evil, in a city that has paladins with Rings of Sustenance at every street corner and door, scanning everybody in sight at all times with Detect Evil.

Maxymiuk
2007-01-30, 12:59 AM
I'm toying around with the idea that being "good" in an "evil" society is a rebel thing, as with the goblin teenagers in OotS. With the drow, the Houses might see it as a nuisance, a stage some of their kind go through. If it takes a century or two, hey, they're elves, they're patient.

A twist to that would be to portray "good" drow as the equivalent of real world's MTV show hosts who annoy people for kicks. "You've been Hugg'd!" or "Date my Matron."

knightsaline
2007-01-30, 03:01 AM
Dunno about stereotypes, but I do have a desire to play the anti-Drizzt.

You mean you want to play Artemis Entrei? he is the Anti-Drizzt. Drizzt refuses to kill another drow. Artemis just likes to kill anything, regardless of race. Drizzt is honourable, Artemis is not.

Thomas
2007-01-30, 05:09 AM
The following presumes you've read the original story about Erekose.

Well, at the start, Erekosė's Human Good and Eldren Evil. Then he switched to Balance Neutral... :smallbiggrin:

In general, the Eternal Champion is always on the side of Balance (even though in many stories, he's fighting for Order or Chaos, but that's always to restore balance).

D&D morality just sucks for describing anything remotely complex. :smallwink:


You mean you want to play Artemis Entrei? he is the Anti-Drizzt. Drizzt refuses to kill another drow. Artemis just likes to kill anything, regardless of race. Drizzt is honourable, Artemis is not.

I think he meant Anti-Drizzt as in "a character that doesn't suck," which pretty much excludes anyone created by Salvatore...

headwarpage
2007-01-30, 09:16 AM
Ok, I'll admit it - I'm completely incapable of wrapping my mind around the objective morality of D&D. It's too far from the real world, and even farther from how I perceive the real world. So I usually just ignore that aspect of it.

But let's look at this a little deeper. You know that several gods exist, and you know what they want you to do. But there are dozens of gods, and they all want you to do different things. So how do you choose between them? Why does an orc choose to do what Pelor wants rather than what Gruumsh wants? At some point, he has to decide, for whatever reason, that the moral code Pelor offers is superior.

Put another way, if one god tells you what to do, there's no problem - you do it, or you know that you're going against the god's will. If 40 gods tell you what to do, you can do almost anything and be doing the will of at least one god. So the involvement of the gods doesn't reduce the need for individuals to choose or the need for some means of determining what's right.

AznEclipse
2007-01-30, 09:32 AM
I think you've got it headwarpage. Indeed the idea of Objective morality is unrealistic.

Unfortunately, Relative morality does raise some immediate issues that must be addressed (none of which are my original ideas) within the context of the D&D world. I believe the example they give in BoVD is that what happens when two Paladins of opposing alginment (good and evil) use Smite Evil? Or do we just remove this ability altogether?

Objective morality may not be realistic, but it is D&D we're talking about, and though it sounds like a cheap way out, it does make things a bit easier when good is definitively good and evil is definitively evil.

Your description of Relative morality is very good though and does make a lot of sense.

GolemsVoice
2007-01-30, 01:15 PM
Be careful not to jugde players by what you know about other players. Perhaps you know there are more Drizzt clones (or generally cool evil racemember turned good) than stars in the sky. But in your campaign, the clone is still alone. He will never meet any other Drizzt to cry on his shoulder ot to talk about their pasts and have fun with two scimitars. The clone is always the lonely cowboy. For this, although it's maybe not the newest idea in the world outside Feaūn, it IS new in Faerūn itself.
And I liked the Drizzt novels. Not Goethe or Hemmingway or whatsoever, but nice to read.

Gamebird
2007-01-30, 03:15 PM
But let's look at this a little deeper. You know that several gods exist, and you know what they want you to do. But there are dozens of gods, and they all want you to do different things. So how do you choose between them? Why does an orc choose to do what Pelor wants rather than what Gruumsh wants? At some point, he has to decide, for whatever reason, that the moral code Pelor offers is superior.

On one level, morality is about what's useful for the society (or the individual, but it's more common to be espoused as a group benefit). Much of morality is judged by whether it helps people and who, exactly, it helps. Some people are seen as more valuable and more worthy of help than others.

Is Pelor likely to help the orc in some way? Is Gruumsh? If Pelor's followers are actively campaigning to wipe out the orc's family, would it be more beneficial for the orc and family to convert to Pelor, thereby negating the moral justification for Pelor's followers to get rid of them? Or would Pelor's followers merely claim that the conversion was insincere and kill them anyway? If the orc remained following Gruumsh, would he enjoy the protection of the rest of his society? Would that amount to much? Would he have a good afterlife?

Do characters in the game world know enough about other religions, about the afterlife, and about the policies of churches and religions to make informed, rational decisions about these sorts of things?

Thomas
2007-01-30, 03:16 PM
It's a Mary-Sue issue. Drizzt clones are pretty much always Mary-Sue characters, just like characters with silver, blue-black, or dual-colored hair (especially when hair-dyes aren't involved), violet or silver eyes, etc.

Mary-Sues are probably less of an issue in tabletop than online, but I've certainly grown to loathe them and be wary of the tell-tale signs. (Drizzt fills pretty much ALL of them. Silver hair, lavender eyes, misunderstood good outcast from dark background, loner, has a magical companion, is totally badass, etc. etc.)

Hilarously enough, there's a character in the MUSH I play with one violet and one silver eye (they're "mysterious," too) and silver hair with blue-black tips. You'd almost think it's a caricature, until you interact with them...

Arlanthe
2007-01-30, 03:26 PM
You can't blame Bob Salvatore for making a character that everyone wants to copy. Whatever you think of him and his writing, he had no idea what would happen, and was the original "good Drow" creator, with a very successful idea.

Blame the droves of unimaginitive people who pull all of their ideas from other peoples' imaginations.

Thomas
2007-01-30, 03:48 PM
Actually, you can blame Salvatore for being a hack of a writer and creating a character who has all the Mary-Sue identifiers...

Grey Watcher
2007-01-30, 03:49 PM
Well, really, if you think about it, Drizzt and his ilk are just a microcosm of the entire Drow race.

Elves are almost exclusively Good.... Except, you know, the bad ones, but you don't have to worry about getting confused because we painted them all black to make it perfectly clear.

I never liked the idea that EVERY race needs to have an EEEEEVIL counterpart that lives underground and has jet black skin. It's pretty silly to begin with, so Drow turning Good and suddenly acting just like a human really doesn't seem all that weird on top of that, does it?

Scorpina
2007-01-30, 03:52 PM
I never liked the idea that EVERY race needs to have an EEEEEVIL counterpart that lives underground and has jet black skin.

Well, Duergar don't have jet black skin, Svirfneiblen aren't evil and neither humans nor halflings have evil subterrainian counterparts...

Thomas
2007-01-30, 03:56 PM
Exclusively good?

Well, I suppose, if you ignore all the Neutral ones (pretty much all wild elves, and most wood elves), and all the Evil ones... like the Eldreth Veluuthra, who are popular among many older gold elf families, and among younger green and copper elves; and the multitude of historical evil elven nations (the Ilythiiri weren't the only ones; you've got Siluvanede, which ended up being ruled by a house of half-fiend gold elves...).

They were plenty evil before they had their skin turned black and were driven underground. (Well, okay, so their leaders were evil, anyway. The Seldarine actually punished every single dark elf in Faerūn for the atrocities committed by the nation that was mostly dark elves). I guess this is all just the "excuse" for having drow on Faerūn, though.

Seriously, though, who expects clever or innovative writing from D&D designers or authors? It's "literature" on order.


Well, Duergar don't have jet black skin, Svirfneiblen aren't evil and neither humans nor halflings have evil subterrainian counterparts...

Humans do, but the Imaskaari are pale and not entirely evil (in fact, ALL the Underdark races are pale, except the drow, who have ebony skin - on Faerūn, anyway - because of a divine curse).

Raz
2007-01-30, 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas

It's a Mary-Sue issue. Drizzt clones are pretty much always Mary-Sue characters, just like characters with silver, blue-black, or dual-colored hair (especially when hair-dyes aren't involved)


Hey! One of my favorite characters I've ever played has dual-colored hair (no dyes involved) and he's far from being a Mary-Sue! Granted he wasn't a drow but still...



Ahem, anyways as to the topic at hand. I find that Salvatore isn't that much of a hack of a writer, unimaginative people are to blame for cloning the character a weeeeeeeee bit too much, and yet to this day I'm still not allowed to play a tiefling paladin.

Don't know why I'm not... Blind-Fight, cast darkness, and a lil smiting...what's so wrong with that?

JadedDM
2007-01-30, 04:28 PM
It's a Mary-Sue issue. Drizzt clones are pretty much always Mary-Sue characters, just like characters with silver, blue-black, or dual-colored hair (especially when hair-dyes aren't involved), violet or silver eyes, etc.

True, much like Raistlin and Mina. I swear, Salvatore and Weis should get together one day and write a book together. It would be the most insane, overpowered, far-fetched tale ever told in the history of the world.

Talya
2007-01-30, 04:33 PM
I finally nailed down what really bugs me about Drizzt and his bajillions of clones. Drizzt's moral compass aligns perfectly with the human idea of "good"--he is essentially a human ranger in prosthetic ears, black makeup, and a white wig. Oh, and lavender contact lenses. Never forget the lavender contact lenses. Did I mention he wears lavender contact lenses? So fascinating, the lavender contact lenses, that we have to hear about them every third freakin' page...

...ahem. Anyway.

Good drow/goblins/mind flayers/whatevers are aberrations in their society. As such, I think they ought to display aberrant behavior; they ought to act, well, kinda crazy. Bizarre superstitions, weird behavior patterns and hangups, a tendency to disparage the attitudes of good creatures and despise oneself for weakness, and so on.

What do people think? And if you agree, what sorts of aberrations do you think would be appropriate for the various "evil" races?


You're right in one respect: Drizzt mirrors the human ideal of good very well, and there are too many Drizzt copies. However, there is an entire religion of good drow that most human types would find rather alien and perhaps a bit scary: The Church of Eilistraee. They are matriarchal, paranoid (justifiably so), dogmatic and fairly dangerous. Nevertheless, they're chaotic good.

DeathQuaker
2007-01-30, 04:39 PM
I never liked the idea that EVERY race needs to have an EEEEEVIL counterpart that lives underground and has jet black skin. It's pretty silly to begin with, so Drow turning Good and suddenly acting just like a human really doesn't seem all that weird on top of that, does it?

Well, the concept of the "white elves that frolic in the trees and the cruel black elves who live underground" comes from Scandinavian mythology, IIRC. If anything, D&D has taken an old legend and given it a little more flavor. But otoh, I guess they didn't need to take the example from mythology so much.

I think it's fine to play "outcasts" and the like, but I like trying to push past, "Well, my people are Chaotic Evil so I'll be good!" Play a Good character who still doesn't get along with his "good" fellows for some reason, and of course evil races have lots of reasons to be divided among one another.

Talking of drow renegades, I always liked the example of Viconia from the Baldur's Gate video game series. An evil, ambitious priestess of Lloth who, as much as she rejoiced in her beautiful wickedness, decided killing an infant (meant to be sacrificed to Lloth) was just pointless--what is the "power" wielded or gained by slaying something so innocent and helpless? But that displeased Lloth and brought disfavor to her house, so she ran away to the surface. She was selfish and cruel still, and was very proud (of course she had some seeds of morality in her that could be encouraged, but not necessarily; since this was from a CRPG it depended on how you played the game and treated her). Evil, yet still a renegade drow, still a story of a woman trying to find her place in a new world and escape her old one (this is the essence of why renegade stories are so engaging, in some respects at least). Personally, I find her much more interesting than the likes of Drizz't who's just sort of good for little apparent reason. And Viconia could be redeemed in Baldur's Gate but even then that's a whole long story which you don't see an end to till close to the end of the adventure (where she becomes *thunder and lighting!* True Neutral).

sktarq
2007-01-30, 05:11 PM
One of the bigggest problems I have always had with "Rebeling against my evil kin" tpye characters is that the vast majority of those with whom I have shared a table or story with have been underdeveloped in the reason why. A couple of years ago I went through a phase of similar evil race rebels (including a drow wizard and an Orog) so I spent lots of time trying to figure out why they left the way they did. There are lots of good options really. Many of them are surprizing selfish and consistant with the overall mores of their own race.
As for "acting Human" it has always been a problem I've had with other races. The very concept of playing another species has always taken allot from me. Otherwise you get the humans-in-funny-suits aspects because face it most of the races in mythologies (from which DnD pulls or creates in the model of) are human-ish representions of a concept. When playing a race that has such a different value system to the point where "evil" (since it actually exists in the DnD world) seems like a wise decision is an addition stretch. As for a good member f such a race one has to ask what advantage or reward do they feel they get for being "good" (I had one character who was afraid of pain and got a look at how lemures were prepared-he was a pelor worshiping nutcase from then on for example). As for such folks becomeing adventureres it makes more sense. As someone mentioned above if 99% of the drow you meet are evil then are you going to trust the one who moves in down the road and sets up a local alchemy shoppee? So I guess he better earn his keep some other way like raiding dungeons.

As an icon of the rebel, the cowboy who hadd the internal strength to walk away from his

Jestir256
2007-01-30, 05:13 PM
Actually, as far as plausibility of alignmental abberrations go, I think the real defining factor is the majority ethic of the race, not the majority morality. My understanding (although I loathe Drow so much it pains me to admit any understanding of them at all) of the Dropw culture is that it's parent alignment is chaotic evil. But chaotic creatures are driven to disrupt, to rebell, and to reject stereotypes and conformity, so a rebellious Drow teenager's best chance of driving his parents nuts would be to turn good on them. By this same logic, there are probably plenty of neutral or even lawful Slaad in the outer planes, but I bet you'll never find a chaotic Modron.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-01-30, 05:16 PM
*Shrugs* R.A Salvatore isn't writing timeless literature with his stories, and I think he knows it. But they are entertaining thanks to his skill in describing combat. I think he does that better than almost any other author I've read. You may disagree, but oh well.

I have a group of Roleplayers who are all good writers, thankfully, so I've never had to suffer through a derivative or hacknied character. But you know what would sound cool to me? A Drow who was an outcast from his society, not because he was good, but because he despised the social order as it existed. Since Drow society is (violently) Matriarchal, why not have a male who was sick and tired of being a second-class citizen? Maybe he led or is planning to lead a revolt on the Matron Mothers.

Of course, Salvatore's also done a bit of that with Jarlaxle. But Jarlaxle's past is much less explored than Drizzt's, so it would seem far less derivative. The idea itself is also a lot more interesting to me than the old question of good and evil, at least for an RPG character.

Wizzardman
2007-01-30, 05:29 PM
Well, Duergar don't have jet black skin, Svirfneiblen aren't evil and neither humans nor halflings have evil subterrainian counterparts...

On the contrary. The book of Vile Darkness very specifically gives humans and halflings an "evil goatee'd duplicate" subrace, just for that purpose.

clericwithnogod
2007-01-30, 05:35 PM
If you're determined to play a drow, Chaotic Neutral makes much more sense than Chaotic Good. It's only one step away from the normal drow alignment, so it's more likely that families of that type would have the chance to bring up children in the first place (as opposed to, say, sacrificing them all to Lolth, which would be the likely fate of most good drow).

Also, if you're a drow and try and live on the surface of Faerun, you are going to be hated by just about everyone you meet. You can't really blame them, either. If 99% of the drow encountered on the surface are Chaotic Evil slave-takers who'll happily murder you and enslave your family, most people are not going to spend much time considering whether you might be one of the 1%, especially given how good drow are at deception and tricks.
- Saph

I've had an idea bouncing around in my head for a CN drow FTR/ROG/Dark Hunter or something along those lines that wasn't a "nice" guy. Not evil, but used to looking out for his own interests and using deception and stealth because he'd otherwise never have survived.

*CAST* "Well, you're not evil... *CAST* "Ahh.. a good drow, I guess we'll let you live, though you can't come into the town."

*CAST* "Well, you're not evil... *CAST* "Not good either...hmmmm." *SPLORTCH!*

Hard to find the right campaign for it though, particularly since what seemed to be pretty standard DND conventions (stealing/lying/cheating/manipulating others for your own benefit = Chaotic and/or Neutral) were defined as Evil in the Book of Vile Darkness. Kind of tough when Black and White evil is defined as how it works in DND and you're trying to work in a shade of grey...particularly since it seems like chaos was lumped into evil.

Dhavaer
2007-01-30, 05:36 PM
On the contrary. The book of Vile Darkness very specifically gives humans and halflings an "evil goatee'd duplicate" subrace, just for that purpose.

Ah, but neither are jet black or subterranian. The Vashar are pale and live on a plateau, IIRC, and the Jerren live on plains and look like standard halflings.

Thomas
2007-01-30, 05:44 PM
I have a group of Roleplayers who are all good writers, thankfully, so I've never had to suffer through a derivative or hacknied character. But you know what would sound cool to me? A Drow who was an outcast from his society, not because he was good, but because he despised the social order as it existed. Since Drow society is (violently) Matriarchal, why not have a male who was sick and tired of being a second-class citizen? Maybe he led or is planning to lead a revolt on the Matron Mothers.

You mean like... all the thousands of drow in the Elven Court, who worship Vhaeraun, the drow god of men and sticking it to the matriarchy? :smallwink:

sktarq
2007-01-30, 05:44 PM
...particularly since it seems like chaos was lumped into evil.
Yes I remember when there were only law, neutral, and Chaos. Law was the good guys of course.

One of the interesting question I stumbled upon allot with such rebels is the idea of doing good things for questionable reasons. Have they really turned over a new leaf for the goodness of all or have they decided being nice to others would allow them the peace, support services, access, and protection they want to fufill their own ends in an easier way than dominating, raiding, backstabbingand dealling with having to control the backlash? Now how good are they when they certainly look it from the point of view of the good races that took them in?

clericwithnogod
2007-01-30, 05:55 PM
Yes I remember when there were only law, neutral, and Chaos. Law was the good guys of course.

One of the interesting question I stumbled upon allot with such rebels is the idea of doing good things for questionable reasons. Have they really turned over a new leaf for the goodness of all or have they decided being nice to others would allow them the peace, support services, access, and protection they want to fufill their own ends in an easier way than dominating, raiding, backstabbingand dealling with having to control the backlash? Now how good are they when they certainly look it from the point of view of the good races that took them in?

The "outcast because he couldn't compete in drow society" type? Yeah, makes it hard with detect evil pointing them out. You could go years without hurting anyone, heck actually going out of your way to go against your nature and do nice things to make people like you, thus ensuring a safe place for yourself in a good community and then one day a wandering paladin hits you with the detect evil and *SMITE* you're gone...

The alignment thing was kind of a let down...the stereotypical DND Neutral Thief turned into the stereotypical Neutral or Chaotic Neutral ADND Thief which turned into the stereotypical Neutral or Chaotic Neutral Rogue, unless it steals/lies/cheats/manipulates others like a thief in which case it's Evil?

Piedmon_Sama
2007-01-30, 05:58 PM
You mean like... all the thousands of drow in the Elven Court, who worship Vhaeraun, the drow god of men and sticking it to the matriarchy? :smallwink:

....Hunh. I guess so. I'm no expert on Forgotten Realms, I suppose no good idea will stay unused for long.

Still, the more I think on the idea the more I like it.... why not have a ranking male warrior who was sick of the "glass ceiling" in Drow society and so set out to gather support for a revolution.

Maybe, to exploit a cliche, he travels to the surface and pretends to be a CG rebel against his society (give him a ring of Fake Alignment or whatever). Have him perform a few heroic deeds and play the part of the brooding, noble warrior to get some reputation up and his name circulating. Maybe he eventually saves an Elven noblewoman from a Dragon or protects an Elf village from some Orcs, and is taken before a High Elven court as a "curiosity."

Maybe our boy explains how he's not alone, and there are enough Drow tired of their debauched and violent society that a revolution could occur if the opportunity was given.... maybe he eventually gets an Elf/Human army together to conquer his old city, really thinking that once the Matron Mothers and Priestesses are taken out the stage will be set for him to rebuild Drow Society the way he likes it: with him at the top...

Indon
2007-01-30, 07:06 PM
I never liked the idea that EVERY race needs to have an EEEEEVIL counterpart that lives underground and has jet black skin. It's pretty silly to begin with, so Drow turning Good and suddenly acting just like a human really doesn't seem all that weird on top of that, does it?

EEEEEEEEVIL albino races make much more sense to me. I mean, it's more common for cavernous species to lack skin pigmentation, rather than have _extra_ skin pigmentation.

Parlik
2007-01-30, 07:19 PM
Try and read Lisa Smedman's 'Sacrifice of the Widow' It have a rather interesting take on the 'good' Drow, which is definetly not your standard kind of good.

Hyrael
2007-01-30, 07:48 PM
I can imagine a Non-evil, maybe even Good Illithid becoming so with minimal Outside intervention, unlike the BoED one:
Our Mind Flayer, due to some habit or personality quirk, is really lazy. Not like he's a couch potato or something, he just doesnt have the drive to dominate and control all other lifeforms that his fellows have. He is more interested in the abstract concepts of magic or psionics, and also does some research in philosophy, and even encounters some works by humanoid Thinkers. Eventually, our not-such-a-jerk illithid decides he's sick of always having to watch his back against other, more malevolent mind flayers. So, he decides to leave. He wanders the underdark for a while, and finds it horribly boring. Starved for mental stimulation, he makes his way towards a large humanoid surface community. Dominated Pawns bring him books and gossip, and he is desperate for a mental challenge. He tries to understand these strange creatures that he usualy thought of as less than cattle. Intellectually, he knows that large numbers of missing persons and corpses found with holes in their heads eventually attract adventurers, so He sticks to buying cattle by proxy through legal channels and eats cow brains. Its a cardboard cigarrete to a terminal nicotine addict, but it's better than being killed by adventurers, and it's food (in the same sense that tofu is food). He starts to connect to the city above him through various means, studying, nudging here and there to see what happens. He uses magic to disguise himself and joins the local mages or psion's guild, and makes a few tennuous aquaetances...
I'm sure you can extraporlate from there.
Good members of Evil races sometimes result from a personality flaw or inherrent quirk. Either that, or they are raised in non-evil enviroments.

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-30, 08:21 PM
I think he meant Anti-Drizzt as in "a character that doesn't suck," which pretty much excludes anyone created by Salvatore...

You have a pretty biased opinion of Salvatore (Which seems to be based upon a hatred of Drizzit) but little actual reading of his. More then a couple of characters don't "suck" as you put it and Artemis Entrei is merely one of them. Universally declaring his stories as crap seems a bit harsh, espicially since I've really liked his recent books. Even more then the original. Bob writes "Epic" (As I've come to call that style) of stories where the main characters are highly powerful but at least he gives them a reason to be that powerful! Except for Jarlaxle whos past hasn't even been explored.

Maybe he doesn't write the kind of story you like, about the "common" (Or as common as you can get) person in a high fantasy setting but that is definitly no reason to call him a hack. And definitly no reason to say his characters suck. Some of his characters have made stereotypes of D&D, which proves that lots of people like the concept and like it enough to emulate it. Saying his characters are overpowered is akin to saying that characters should never go past 10th level because then their like Drizzit.

Thats my opinion and I stick by it for Artemis's sake and my own. *Is a die hard Artemis fan, wasn't even going to post on this thread until I saw this.*


And to get back on topic, another stereotype of the genre is the drunken dwarf or drunken barbarian. I played an intellectual dwarf once was considered a freak in the game world and had to put up with ruthless teasing from my friends.

EDIT: Now that my little rant is out of the way, I think I'll go back to the PbP and Homebrew forums. This thread doesn't have the sort of humor I was looking for. Game...er...Debate on!

Talya
2007-01-30, 08:37 PM
Try and read Lisa Smedman's 'Sacrifice of the Widow' It have a rather interesting take on the 'good' Drow, which is definetly not your standard kind of good.


Were they the Eilistraeen drow I mentioned earlier?

Talya
2007-01-30, 08:39 PM
Except for Jarlaxle whos past hasn't even been explored.



Salvatore's books are quite good, I agree. However, Jarlaxle's past has been explored to some degree, and more so all the time. Most recently, we know that Jarlaxle Baenre was a son of the late Matron Baenre, the one that should have been sacrificed to Lolth, but was not...

Thomas
2007-01-30, 09:08 PM
You have a pretty biased opinion of Salvatore (Which seems to be based upon a hatred of Drizzit) but little actual reading of his. More then a couple of characters don't "suck" as you put it and Artemis Entrei is merely one of them. Universally declaring his stories as crap seems a bit harsh, espicially since I've really liked his recent books. Even more then the original. Bob writes "Epic" (As I've come to call that style) of stories where the main characters are highly powerful but at least he gives them a reason to be that powerful! Except for Jarlaxle whos past hasn't even been explored.

I have to confess that I stopped reading Salvatore at around age 16. I've read the first two or three trilogies, maybe a book or two after that, but that was it. He's no better than the next D&D writer (i.e. quite bad).

I'll admit that if you compare him to all the other pathetic fantasy writers around these days (Jordan, Eddings, Feist), and to AD&D/D&D writers especially (Denning), Salvatore measures up fine. Compare his stuff and characters to any real writer...

I certainly don't have a thing for "common" characters in fantasy settings (and not only because, as with Feist, Jordan, Eddings, etc., those "common" guys always turn out to be super-heroes), but I've got a lot against these cliched, almost identical characters apparently specifically designed to appeal to teenagers.

And I don't see where you pull "overpowered" into the talk. I love "overpowered." I'm a friggin' RuneQuest fan, after all, and think the PCs ought to be slugging it out with Harrek and JarEel.



EEEEEEEEVIL albino races make much more sense to me. I mean, it's more common for cavernous species to lack skin pigmentation, rather than have _extra_ skin pigmentation.

Apparently evil albinos are a stereotype unto themselves, although I think it's got to be a bit of an old one - I can't think of any actual examples.


Still, the more I think on the idea the more I like it.... why not have a ranking male warrior who was sick of the "glass ceiling" in Drow society and so set out to gather support for a revolution.

Well, the male drow of Menzoberranzan sort of did that in War of the Spider Queen, although they were led by an outside force...

It's not a bad idea, anyway. I can't imagine using the Vhaeraunites of the Elven Court without including some warfare against the vengeful matron mothers.



Were they the Eilistraeen drow I mentioned earlier?

I'm curious too. Can we also get some sort of overview or summary? I'm going to be use the Eilistraee-worshippers in a campaign, and I'd like some ideas to make them distinctive (and to blur the Good-Evil issue, maybe).

Callos_DeTerran
2007-01-30, 10:41 PM
I have to confess that I stopped reading Salvatore at around age 16. I've read the first two or three trilogies, maybe a book or two after that, but that was it. He's no better than the next D&D writer (i.e. quite bad).

I'll admit that if you compare him to all the other pathetic fantasy writers around these days (Jordan, Eddings, Feist), and to AD&D/D&D writers especially (Denning), Salvatore measures up fine. Compare his stuff and characters to any real writer...[/quote]

Hmm. Seeing your distaste for these kind of authors, can I ask who you do consider to be a real fantasy author? Maybe checking one of them out can help me see this from your point of view.


I certainly don't have a thing for "common" characters in fantasy settings (and not only because, as with Feist, Jordan, Eddings, etc., those "common" guys always turn out to be super-heroes), but I've got a lot against these cliched, almost identical characters apparently specifically designed to appeal to teenagers.

And I don't see where you pull "overpowered" into the talk. I love "overpowered." I'm a friggin' RuneQuest fan, after all, and think the PCs ought to be slugging it out with Harrek and JarEel.

In retrospect I'm not quite sure were I got overpowered from myself though the RuneQuest reference goes right over my head....so does Harrek.

Though you might want to consider that teenagers might be the target audience of these authors and not take it so hard on them.

Wehrkind
2007-01-31, 01:39 AM
Hyrael: Reason and a search for knowledge as a fountainhead of morality? Fascinating... Why... that would through the entire morality scale of D&D on it's ear, as well as what most people consider "moral" in the real world...

*ahem*

I learned something new today: I never had heard of a Mary-Sue before. Fascinating; I now have another phrase to add to my collection of things to make coworkers blink and think "Must be from that intarweb all the kids are talking about."

I agree that Salvatore isn't exactly Rand, or Shakespeare, or Clavell. He writes fairly formulaic novels, and the little italicized "Notes from Drizzit" are chock full of crap philosophy and are best skipped. However, for a 5$ fantasy novel you read in an evening or two, they are hard to beat. Sometimes things don't have to be great, they just need to be entertaining. Sometimes it is fun to wallow in a little cheap fantasy, and marvel at idealized characters. (I am particularly fond of the current novels where main characters just start getting offed. THAT ups the stakes a bit, much to my pleasure.)

But as was said, some of the classic stories have characters who are simply examples of some human ideal. Hercules, Achillies, Hector, every fairy tale character ever, they are all good because they give us someone to admire and look up to. Granted, the greats have flaws they have to over come, but those are all downplayed compared to their abilities and virtue.

Dhavaer
2007-01-31, 01:48 AM
Apparently evil albinos are a stereotype unto themselves, although I think it's got to be a bit of an old one - I can't think of any actual examples.

Evil albinos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_albino#Villains)

Parlik
2007-01-31, 03:18 AM
Were they the Eilistraeen drow I mentioned earlier?


Yeah it is partly about them, it follows up on the events in War of the Spider Queen and focuses on the followers of Eilistraee and the confrontation with the new and improved Lloth, and especially what happened to Halisstra. You get some insight on some of the other Drow faiths as well. Other main characters are Cavatina, a Darksong knight that probably enjoy combat a little to much. Q'arlynd a wizard that 'converts' to Eilistraee's faith early on in the book. I won't go into to many details as it would probably spoil the book a little, however the interesting thing to see is that while Eilistraee's followers are good, each of them still display some of the more negative traits of the Drow, even if they are twisted more towards good.

Is a shame somewhat that WotC does have some PG13 guidelines as I suspect from reading this between the lines here and there, that the author would have made some of the passages in the books a lot more ruthless and focused more towards adult readers if this hadn't been the case.

Arlanthe
2007-01-31, 04:15 AM
I Compare his stuff and characters to any real writer...

I certainly don't have a thing for "common" characters in fantasy settings... almost identical characters apparently specifically designed to appeal to teenagers.


Any "real" writer? Pray tell, what is a "real" writer? One that hasn't written a couple score of the best selling books in recent history? One who doesn't create characters that resonate with people so strongly they copy them? One that isn't quantitatively one of the most popular and best selling fantasy authors of the last 15 years?

I appreciate that you have strong opinions on things, I have them myself. But please do try to include with your statements an "I think" or "In my opinion" or "It seems to me" or another qualifying statement, rather than trying to "tell us like it is" with some kind of pronouncement as if you get to decide what a "real" writer is, or who is or isn't a "hack". In the end, your pronouncements aren't facts, they are opinions like everyone elses.

And to that end, my personal assesment of an author's "talent", whatever that is, includes his or her ability to make characters that people care about or connect with. I also feel Bob Salvatore isn't the most original or technically proficient writer, but I also don't think he is a hack, and deserves a lot of credit for his success in making characters people care about. A lot of us want to feel like we're a little bit Drizzt. Or Artemis. Or whoever.

Scorpina
2007-01-31, 08:02 AM
But not Cattie-Brie. Ever.

She's far more annoying than Drizzt and his legion of clones could ever hope to be.

Fhaolan
2007-01-31, 09:20 AM
I learned something new today: I never had heard of a Mary-Sue before. Fascinating; I now have another phrase to add to my collection of things to make coworkers blink and think "Must be from that intarweb all the kids are talking about."


I normally don't like linking to Wikipedia because of the large chance of innacuracy, but this entry hits all the highlights that I am familiar with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Of course, a Mary-Sue doesn't necessarily make the novels bad, it's just distracting. There is one Star Trek novel, 'Uhura's Song', where there is what is obviously a Mary-Sue character (so obvious it feels like being struck by a 2x4 every time the character is 'on-screen'), but if you can ignore that the rest of the story is actually quite good.

Talya
2007-01-31, 01:16 PM
Is a shame somewhat that WotC does have some PG13 guidelines as I suspect from reading this between the lines here and there, that the author would have made some of the passages in the books a lot more ruthless and focused more towards adult readers if this hadn't been the case.

Yes, I've read that book. Silverfall is another book that deals with this (Qilue specifically.)

Forgotten Realms is a VERY mature setting. Type "Lady of Dalliances Allustriel" into google (without the quotes) and select the first link that comes up. (I won't link it here out of board courtesy.) It's a writeup by Ed Greenwood himself...never published, but he invented the setting, it doesn't get more official without WotC's consent than that.

Piedmon_Sama
2007-01-31, 03:02 PM
I don't think we need to end every statement with "well, just my two cents," since that's implied. But I'd agree with Arlanthe that Thomas is being pretty unfair to R.A.S. "Not a real writer?" Of course he is. I'll concede that even that Paolini kid can call himself a Real Live Writer.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-01-31, 03:22 PM
This is exactly why I don't allow Drow PCs in most of my campaigns. -,- Pointy -eared bastards are just a cheap way to get some good special abilities early game and to have a good backstory without actually trying to write one for yourself.

Anyway, more to the point...

If you don't like having your PCs just follow the road of black and white morality, try running a game focused more on Law and Chaos. Make your PC's actually use their heads for once when its no longer "Do the right thing, not the wrong thing." and becomes "What is right and wrong?"

=3 Lets see a pointy-ear angst about being the good guy in a place where people take offense to how he is good instead of that fact that he should be evil.

Matthew
2007-01-31, 04:24 PM
I have to confess that I stopped reading Salvatore at around age 16. I've read the first two or three trilogies, maybe a book or two after that, but that was it. He's no better than the next D&D writer (i.e. quite bad).

I'll admit that if you compare him to all the other pathetic fantasy writers around these days (Jordan, Eddings, Feist), and to AD&D/D&D writers especially (Denning), Salvatore measures up fine. Compare his stuff and characters to any real writer...

I have been rereading The Crystal Shard since the last Drizzt thread and I have to say, it's pretty awful. I would go so far as to say Dragons of Autumn Twilight was considerably better (which I reread last year). I certainly rate Eddings higher (which isn't saying much). I haven't read past the seventh Drizzt book, so I don't know whether his writing ever really improved.

The concepts aren't too awful, it really is the execution that is bad.

pestilenceawaits
2007-01-31, 04:32 PM
I have been rereading The Crystal Shard since the last Drizzt thread and I have to say, it's pretty awful. I would go so far as to say Dragons of Autumn Twilight was considerably better (which I reread last year). I certainly rate Eddings higher (which isn't saying much). I haven't read past the seventh Drizzt book, so I don't know whether his writing ever really improved.

The concepts aren't too awful, it really is the execution that is bad.

The crystal shard is not that great of a book for the first 2/3rds of it it picks up at the end but still isn't as great as many proclaim I think his writing is pretty stale in general it has some interesting stuff going for it but overall it is a little long winded. But then I think Tolkien was long winded (brilliant) but long winded.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-31, 05:56 PM
Show me a fantasy book that compares favorably to Tolkien's work, and I'll show you a book that was written more than 30 years ago. Contemporary fantasy, while for the most part halfway decent, just doesn't measure up to the old stuff.

Thomas
2007-01-31, 06:22 PM
Show me a fantasy book that compares favorably to Tolkien's work, and I'll show you a book that was written more than 30 years ago. Contemporary fantasy, while for the most part halfway decent, just doesn't measure up to the old stuff.

I agree with the sentiment, although I'm not that big on LotR (Silmarillion is superior by far, but it's less "fantasy" and more "imaginary mythology"; the difference is subtle, but significant...).

Leiber, Howard, Moorcock, and Clark Ashton Smith seem to fullfil the "more than 30 years ago" criterion. They've all got their high and low points (Moorcock's Revenge of the Rose is unreadable; Howard wrote a lot of "bread-winning" schlock; the only things really going for Smith is this feeling of "unexplored territory" and a bizarre imagination)...

Well, then there's Terry Pratchett, though. I'd say he stands up pretty well.

Denning, Salvatore, Weiss & Hickman, and the like all had their place (I loved that stuff way back when, and actually liked Wheel of Time and Eddings' stuff when I started on them years ago), but great (or decent) writers they are not. I'll still read original Dragonlance for the nostalgic vibe, but as literature goes, it's half a step up from most comics. (And roundly thrashed by some graphic novels, like crazy ol' Sim's Cerebus.)


Thinking about it, it might be significant that my favorites are the two "originators" of 20th-century fantasy (Howard and Smith), and the people who subtly parodied them (Leiber, Moorcock, Pratchett), yet at the same time have written credible works that stand on their own. (Although I can't say there's much point reading the first 2-3 books by Pratchett if you haven't read some Leiber...)


And let's not bring up Chris "My parents published my fanfic!" Paolini... yech. He's in the same class with Robert Jordan, except that Paolini's not even copying anything good (like Jordan copied Herbert's Dune).

SeekerInTheNight
2007-01-31, 06:35 PM
Show me a fantasy book that compares favorably to Tolkien's work, and I'll show you a book that was written more than 30 years ago. Contemporary fantasy, while for the most part halfway decent, just doesn't measure up to the old stuff.

Tolkien was the original stereotype. =/ And I'll have to disagree with you 100% that the old stuff is better than the new.

But you asked for it...

If you're looking for an epic, check out any of these.
Stephen King - The Dark Tower
George R.R. Martin - Song of Fire and Ice
Robin Hobb - The Farseer Trilogy

If you want a fun, new read that doesn't reek of stereotypes pick up.
Simon Green - The Nightside

If you're looking for a damn good read that will force you to sit down and rethink everything you've ever believed about fantasy and the world in general...

Terry Goodkind - The Sword of Truth

And of course the dozens of single reads out there that are fantastic simply because they break the mold from traditional fantasy.

All written less than 30 years ago, every one of them worth a read.

Woot Spitum
2007-01-31, 06:41 PM
I don't consider Dune to be good. Honestly, sometimes I think it was the inspiration for Dragonball Z. You see a world full of super-powerful uncounterable tactics and beings, then suddenly, hey, I thought of something no one else thought of and now I am, for all intents and purposes, a deity. The thing that seperates Dune from Dragonball Z and The Wheel of Time is that in the latter two, you actually see antagonists strong enough to go toe-to-toe with the hero after he gets all this awesome power. In Dune, everything would seem impossible, then there's this moment of insight, and after that the hero is Pun-Pun. It's kinda dissappointing.

Thomas
2007-01-31, 06:47 PM
If you're looking for an epic, check out any of these.
Stephen King - The Dark Tower

I'll agree that King's good (1408 scared me like nothing I've ever read), but I wouldn't consider him a fantasy author, mostly.

Martin and Hobb I've had recommended repeatedly, but I've never found the time to check out. Martin's series, especially, sounds promising (although it also sounds a little too much like Wheel of Time; dozens of recurring characters you're expected to remember from book to book...).

Talya
2007-01-31, 09:55 PM
I find Stephen King's Dark Tower series almost unreadable in it's disorganization after book 1...it feels almost like abstract fiction.

Salvatore's writing style started off ... well, weak. There were good points (His fight descriptions and characterizations were wonderful), but his narrative and dialogue were generally awful.

He has improved a thousand-fold in the last while. The Lone Drow series is amazing, I think he's gotten himself a very good editor.

Golthur
2007-02-01, 12:09 AM
I'll agree that King's good (1408 scared me like nothing I've ever read), but I wouldn't consider him a fantasy author, mostly.

Martin and Hobb I've had recommended repeatedly, but I've never found the time to check out. Martin's series, especially, sounds promising (although it also sounds a little too much like Wheel of Time; dozens of recurring characters you're expected to remember from book to book...).

King has had a couple of stories that are more fantasy than horror - The Dark Tower series, and Eyes of the Dragon. I loved the Dark Tower immensely with the first bunch (The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass). I liked Wolves of the Calla, somewhat, but it went downhill for me from there. Eyes of the Dragon I remember liking very much at the time, but I was 17 or so, so I can't really say what it would be like now.

Never read Hobb (but I might now), but I'll highly recommend Martin (like others, no doubt). Read them; he's nothing like Jordan, although his last one he spent a bit too much time for my tastes on what I'd consider secondary characters. Still a good read, nonetheless, and not stereotypical like most fantasy.

Serenity
2007-02-01, 12:15 AM
I find Stephen King's Dark Tower series almost unreadable in it's disorganization after book 1...it feels almost like abstract fiction.

It doesn't have any organization until after Book 1. The Gunslinger just plops you into the middle of something very confusing with odd hints at the character's past. It's not until Drawing of the Three that anything happening really seems to have coherency and direction. Though Book 7 was just too much crammed into one book, I'll grant that...

I do love that series, though...

kamikasei
2007-02-01, 12:50 AM
I don't consider Dune to be good. Honestly, sometimes I think it was the inspiration for Dragonball Z. You see a world full of super-powerful uncounterable tactics and beings, then suddenly, hey, I thought of something no one else thought of and now I am, for all intents and purposes, a deity. The thing that seperates Dune from Dragonball Z and The Wheel of Time is that in the latter two, you actually see antagonists strong enough to go toe-to-toe with the hero after he gets all this awesome power. In Dune, everything would seem impossible, then there's this moment of insight, and after that the hero is Pun-Pun. It's kinda dissappointing.

That's... honestly one of the oddest opinions I've ever encountered. I think the reason why is that I don't think of Dune as having anything like the intent you seem to assign it. It's not a story of a guy with some challenges he has to overcome. It's a study of power and its inherent limitations (among many other things). The hero becoming uber-powerful is not the victory but the problem, it's the thing he has to cope with. The idea of "what does it mean for a society to have a Hero?" is much closer to the heart of the books than "can Paul defeat the Guild?"

Bear in mind that Herbert intended the first three books as a full trilogy, so you're missing a lot of the point if you've only read the first book.

Wallyz
2007-02-01, 12:59 AM
Fhaolin (again) makes the point I was goingto make.

There is not "faith" as we define it in D&D. There is fact and knowledge in it's place. The people of the world know their gods exist the same way I know Angela Merkel exists. *snip* Talk to someone very serious about their religion sometime. They "KNOW" God (Allah, whomever) exists the same way they "KNOW" George Bush exists.


Well I am pretty sure that George and Angela know each other exist, after George felt her up last year.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-02-01, 01:04 AM
I'll agree that King's good (1408 scared me like nothing I've ever read), but I wouldn't consider him a fantasy author, mostly.

Martin and Hobb I've had recommended repeatedly, but I've never found the time to check out. Martin's series, especially, sounds promising (although it also sounds a little too much like Wheel of Time; dozens of recurring characters you're expected to remember from book to book...).


^^;;; Uh... Martin... hmmm... :smallconfused: Yes there are a lot of characters, and your are expected to remember them to a certain degree but... Lets just say they aren't neccessarily recurring.

Anyone who has read the books knows what I'm beating around the bush at. >_>

Wallyz
2007-02-01, 01:10 AM
You mean like... all the thousands of drow in the Elven Court, who worship Vhaeraun, the drow god of men and sticking it to the matriarchy? :smallwink:

Tee- Hee Weren't there like six books dedicated to these guys?

Wallyz
2007-02-01, 01:14 AM
Robert Jordan has lost it, and me. CoT and Dagger were painful. Thankfully they were readable in a morning in Borders, So I didn;'t have to buy.

Also- the Dune criticism- Read the trilogy to understand the arc of Muad'dib sacrificing the source of his power for the exercise of his power, and how that created the roots of the downfall of the Atreidies dynasty.

Arlanthe
2007-02-01, 03:10 AM
I have heard a lot of good things about the whole Game of Thrones bit. Worth a read?

Parlik
2007-02-01, 05:19 AM
I love Dune, is a real shame Frank Herbert died before he could write the last book.

Golthur
2007-02-01, 10:28 AM
Robert Jordan has lost it, and me. CoT and Dagger were painful. Thankfully they were readable in a morning in Borders, So I didn;'t have to buy.

Public library for me, but I'm having a hard time choking my way through (Dagger). This is likely the last one for me, if I even get through it.


I have heard a lot of good things about the whole Game of Thrones bit. Worth a read?

YES!


I love Dune, is a real shame Frank Herbert died before he could write the last book.

Yes. I loved Dune immensely. I've deliberately avoided anything by Brian, expecting them to more or less be a desecration of his father's work - and, from what I've heard, my opinion was accurate.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-01, 11:28 AM
Robert Jordan has lost it, and me. CoT and Dagger were painful. Thankfully they were readable in a morning in Borders, So I didn;'t have to buy.

Also- the Dune criticism- Read the trilogy to understand the arc of Muad'dib sacrificing the source of his power for the exercise of his power, and how that created the roots of the downfall of the Atreidies dynasty.

I did read the whole series. That's why I got dissappointed. At the end of the first book, I figured that maybe things would make more sense in the next few. The problem was, things actually started to make less sense as the series went on. And that pattern of achiveving ultimate power occurs throughout the series, with The God-Emperor of Dune being the only exception. That was the first book that seemed on the way to a reasonably satisfying ending, but then Leto ruins it and says that it was his plan to manipulate his decendants all along. Plus, the last book seemed completely disconnected from the rest of the series.

I agree that Crossroads of Twilight was painful, but I thought Knife of Dreams was much better.

Gamebird
2007-02-01, 11:36 AM
In Dune, everything would seem impossible, then there's this moment of insight, and after that the hero is Pun-Pun. It's kinda dissappointing.

That's hilarious. I've never read the other two books, so I totally sympathize.

Thomas
2007-02-01, 11:45 AM
King has had a couple of stories that are more fantasy than horror - The Dark Tower series, and Eyes of the Dragon. I loved the Dark Tower immensely with the first bunch (The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass). I liked Wolves of the Calla, somewhat, but it went downhill for me from there. Eyes of the Dragon I remember liking very much at the time, but I was 17 or so, so I can't really say what it would be like now.

I don't go near anything of King's with blatant self-insertion. It's bad enough the protagonist of every story is his avatar...

His writing is still gripping, though.


Public library for me, but I'm having a hard time choking my way through (Dagger). This is likely the last one for me, if I even get through it.

I read it while stuck in a hotel room. I'm going to read the last book, because I can't not finish a story that I've been reading for so many years, no matter how awful his writing is technically - and because I want to see how badly he messes it up (there's no way to tie up all the loose ends even if he writes a 1,500-page book).


Yes. I loved Dune immensely. I've deliberately avoided anything by Brian, expecting them to more or less be a desecration of his father's work - and, from what I've heard, my opinion was accurate.

That's the consensus.

And yeah, Dune is supposed to be read as something deeper than your average fantasy novels (just like most good SF); it's a story about power, more than about a man.


I think I'll make the effort to find and read A Song of Ice and Fire once I finish the Gormenghast trilogy

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-01, 12:54 PM
It's been a while since I've read anything Fantasy. But I think I actually get more gaming material from reading I, Claudius or A History of the Crusades than actual fantasy. The only fantasy author I think I've ever seriously wanted to imitate is Lovecraft, because he leaves a lot of his stuff nebulous and undefined, so there's plenty to work with. Are the Great Old Ones demons, or aliens? Do they signify the rule of chaos, or is can faith hold out? etc. etc.

Golthur
2007-02-01, 01:07 PM
I don't go near anything of King's with blatant self-insertion. It's bad enough the protagonist of every story is his avatar...

His writing is still gripping, though.

That was about the point where Dark Tower really fell apart for me. The words I uttered at the time were something like "you've GOT to be kidding", and I ended up wincing my way through the rest. Series was very good in the beginning, though. Overall, I'd say it's worth putting up with the end for the good stuff at the beginning.


I read it while stuck in a hotel room. I'm going to read the last book, because I can't not finish a story that I've been reading for so many years, no matter how awful his writing is technically - and because I want to see how badly he messes it up (there's no way to tie up all the loose ends even if he writes a 1,500-page book).

Sigh. You're probably right on this point. I've already sunk so much time and effort reading this thing, it'll end up being a waste if I don't finish it. Thank goodness for the library, though. At least I won't have to pay for it (beyond my municipal taxes, anyway).


That's the consensus.

And yeah, Dune is supposed to be read as something deeper than your average fantasy novels (just like most good SF); it's a story about power, more than about a man.

Yes, if you just read Dune as a story, I could see it being a bit lacking. But how can you not love Herbert's rants on the nature of myth, prophecy, power and religion? :smile:


I think I'll make the effort to find and read A Song of Ice and Fire once I finish the Gormenghast trilogy

As I said, it's a good entertaining read, and it's not cookie-cutter fantasy, for the most part. There's no "farm boy becomes omnipotent wizard and saves the world", whatsoever. The characters are fleshed out beyond a two sentence description of their personalities, and no one is safe from the axe. :amused:

He does start adding in new minor->major characters as time goes on, which I find somewhat annoying, but it's not too, too bad, yet.

EvilElitest
2007-02-06, 11:47 PM
Getting back to the topic of the thread

"I certainly don't have a thing for "common" characters in fantasy settings (and not only because, as with Feist, Jordan, Eddings, etc., those "common" guys always turn out to be super-heroes), but I've got a lot against these cliched, almost identical characters apparently specifically designed to appeal to teenagers."

I would like to point out, that before Salvatore, there were no good drow. He started the sterotype. That is like saying Tolken was being common for having a unheroic character (Bilbo) be the hero of a story. He started, or if not, perfected it. Now i would like to say that Salvator is a dam good writer. I mean, compare him to Eddings. Eddings (who was simple a game maker during my fathers generation) is a VERY good champian maker. I still say FR is the most detailed and well done champain setting. He is an awful writting. I mean look at the Elmister series. I mean, if you have a long series, of course you main character is always going to win, reliticlly speaking. Having him win with no sweat is annoying. It all "He beat it, he killed it, he defeated it, he is Elmister and therefor the best and he wins again." Salvator may not let Drizzt die, but bear in mind, the series is not done yet. And he at least has well done challenged. If you don't think the stories are deep enough, look at it from a biblical sense. I am not preaching religion, (not christian my self), and by biblical i am referenceing to a Light/darkness sort of situation. Take Enterai and Drizzt rivalery, It is a very well written drynamic. I know that arch rivils are an archtypie, be he is orginal in the story to avoid treading on cliche. I also don't think that Drizzt is not a very human good character. I've noticed a very "Ends justifies the means" ideal that he carries. He is really a bit of a monk. He does not belive in enjoying ones self (or himself at least). He does not belive in technolagy (his memoir of guns mentions how he view it as a tool for the lazy and incomptent to misuse) he is an elitiest for those who train themselves, he is rather cold, and he is also a very ruthless fighter. I mean, he hunts down evil creatrus in their own homes and kills them.
As for a sterotype, he certainly is the first good drow i've seen that is well written. Someone said, that there would be one in a million good drow. Now in Salvatores writting, you have yet to meet anough good drow (apart form Drizzt's dad, who was neutral and dead). Drizzt seems to be the only one. Hell, their is way more character depth in why Drizzt is good. It is mentioned sevreal times that it was more of luck rather than fate. Hell, if Salvator wanted to be a hack, he would have done a cross over with the church of Elisstrea, or whatever her name is and Drizzt would realize that he is not alone. But that would be a pretty crappy crossover. Also, Drizzt clones are not in any way connected directlly with Salvator. If someone wants to play a CG Male Drow Ranger, let them, as long as they play it well and use a different take than Drizzt. The aliment system can be interpeted in many different ways, and so you only restrict you self if you say it is contristing.
Now, their are many ways to have a large amount of good drow. Look at medevil japan. Even though they were completly shut off from the world (with some slight contact with korea and China) there were still accounts of people who went against the system. I am not saying that it was wrong, just in every culture there are people who go against the culture norm, often a large percentage. Drow were made a player race for roleplaying. If everything in D&D was completly black and white, then drow would be "Always CE" and their fore unable to be good ever. Now we know that is not true. Unlike Demons, Angles, and Invetibles, mortal races are allowed to choose their aligment. Hell, if you think Salvator is a black and white sort of guy, read the Demon Awaken, The Demon Aposail, The Demon Spirt, and Mortials. Those books take place in his own world and are very brutal. It is complety based after mid-evil europe, not vaugely based like most champains but acully using historcal infomation. Hell, it reminds me of Goblins. If you want to see a good way to play off aliments, read Goblins. Or Darken Comic for that matter, which has a very good drow character.

Now I hate Drizzt copy cats, but Salvator does not promote them. They are just unorginal. Now as for good drow, if they roleplay well and have a good backstory, what is the problem. It is bad when they simple copy out of drizzt book the details, but if they use their own ideas it is fine. I really like playing drow, though i really like playing Evil. But even then, you can still have goodish drow. The main villian in my champain is a male drow (the general not the ruler) of a drow army who i based after General Lee. Honest, devout, honorable, brillent, and stronge willed, fighting for a cause he does not like, but feel duty bound to do it anyways. Anyone here who comes from below the Dixie line knows what i'm talking about. Their are countless way to play with aliments, you just need to get creative.
I wish i could say more but i need to go to bed. Cheers from the south.
From,
EE

Dark
2007-02-07, 05:37 AM
Apparently evil albinos are a stereotype unto themselves, although I think it's got to be a bit of an old one - I can't think of any actual examples.
I think it started with the Morlocks.

Not that eating Eloi is evil, per se...

joelgerencer
2007-02-07, 07:12 AM
Or you could just not use the Alignment Table for playing D&D and just "roleplay" being good or evil like many of the other good roleplaying games out there... just house rule it away and keep your Paladins in check. no problems.

Thomas
2007-02-07, 08:27 AM
I would like to point out, that before Salvatore, there were no good drow.

"Good drow" is not the cliche. It's a pretty meaningless twist on the same old predictable themes. (Not really a twist; it's just the shape or color of the cliche.)

The character is like an aggregate of all the Mary-Sue warning signs.

1. Strangely colored eyes.
2. Magical animal companion 2a. That kicks ass.
3. Super bad-ass fighter 3a. Who'd rather not fight all the time.
4. Outcast and loner 4a. With a tragic past. 4b. Who is misunderstood and wrongly persecuted but is so cool he doesn't hate the people who do it.
...

It goes on and on and on.

Renrik
2007-02-07, 01:49 PM
Dear gods, I hate the Drizzt Clones!

I mean, Drizzt himself wasn;t all that horrible, because it was just one, but it's really starting to get old!

Seriously, the first time I DMed, there were FOUR good drow in the six-person party. Yes, two thirds of the adventurers were good drow. (The other two were wood elves.)

If people want to play drow, they shouldn't be afraid to play them as they really are: Evil, murderous, greedy, and diabolical. I've played an evil drow. It wasn't all that bad. Actually, it was kind of fun, being able to swear an oath to the Spider Queen right before sticking an adimantium rapier through someone's face. It's OK to play Evil drow. I don;t know why people don't. Think of all the adventure opportunities. Very fun.

And another thing:

Elistree! God, I hate her! It seems to me that she was created specifically to provide Drizzt clones an excuse for existing!

Scorpina
2007-02-07, 02:02 PM
Not exclusively. She also dances naked in the moonlight, which just screams 'fanservice'...

EvilElitest
2007-02-07, 02:27 PM
"1. Strangely colored eyes.
2. Magical animal companion 2a. That kicks ass.
3. Super bad-ass fighter 3a. Who'd rather not fight all the time.
4. Outcast and loner 4a. With a tragic past. 4b. Who is misunderstood and wrongly persecuted but is so cool he doesn't hate the people who do it."

And you forget the subject of his race, which a central idea of the books and the subject of this thread. Now their is nothing wronge with good drow. I personlly prefer playing evil, but if one can play them right, then good for them. I also like Drizzt and i think Salvator is a very good writer. However, i don't see the need to play Drizzt in my games. I also hate Drizzt clones. And so the message that i think that should be made clear is, that while it is great to play against the typical ideal (good drow, good mindflayers, good goblins, ect.) it is awful to copy somone elses idea word from word and not do anything with it. That is not only pathetic, it is border plagerisn. Don't copy ideas without adding orginal aspect to them. If i played a CG Male Drow ranger (i don't by the way, i like evil drow) and i live on the surface, as long as i play the character in a orginal manner, i am being a good roleplayer. If i just copy my actions exactly from Drizzt's books, then i am a loser poser and i deserve to have a stake put through my heart. The consept is not bad, the character is not bad, it is those who abuse it.
"If people want to play drow, they shouldn't be afraid to play them as they really are: Evil, murderous, greedy, and diabolical. I've played an evil drow. It wasn't all that bad. Actually, it was kind of fun, being able to swear an oath to the Spider Queen right before sticking an adimantium rapier through someone's face. It's OK to play Evil drow. I don;t know why people don't. Think of all the adventure opportunities. Very fun." I agree, though they should not be limited to that.

"Elistree! God, I hate her! It seems to me that she was created specifically to provide Drizzt clones an excuse for existing!"
I just want to point out that Mr. Salvator has never mentioned Elistrea in his books as yet and i pray he never does. As for the concept, while i do agree with FR that it is a useful excuse to allow PC's to be drow not be Drizzt, i wish it was done bettter. I does sound like a Drizzt clone hevan. I mean, while the concept itself is decent, the realisiom is a bit blurry.
Thank you for you time,
From,
EE

Scorpina
2007-02-07, 02:28 PM
Elistree is mentioned in passing at least in The Hunter's Blades Trilogy...

EvilElitest
2007-02-07, 03:06 PM
I don't think so, i get the impression that salvator is avoiding the subject of her.
From,
EE

Indon
2007-02-07, 05:56 PM
1. Strangely colored eyes.
2. Magical animal companion 2a. That kicks ass.
3. Super bad-ass fighter 3a. Who'd rather not fight all the time.
4. Outcast and loner 4a. With a tragic past. 4b. Who is misunderstood and wrongly persecuted but is so cool he doesn't hate the people who do it.
...


You know, it's odd, but my Mary Sues (It's surprising how good an intentional write-in can be as a writing exercise) more resemble Corwin of Amber than any Salvatore character.

PirateMonk
2007-02-07, 07:14 PM
While the Amberites have the exotic feel and unstoppable killing machine part (especially Benedict, who could chop Drizzt to bits), they simply have gaping character flaws that isn't in line with the Mary Sue type. Even Corwin. And Corwin, unlike Drizzt, not only faces challenging fights, but ones he has a good chance of losing.
As for the good illithids, why not make the Elder Brain CG (or whatever)? It might be interesting, having it forced to try to stop the evil acts of its underlings, without being discovered by other communities (who will just terminate it) and its followers (who will alert others). But then there's the god brains...

EvilElitest
2007-02-08, 09:16 PM
In a champian i ran once, a great wyrm silver dragon in mindflayer form entered the colony under the pretence that it had lost it old one. After preforming many valint and good servenes for the flayers (they were underattack from drow) t was granted the reward of having its brain eaten by the elder brain. Because of the dragons strong will, it was able to hid itself from the elder brain up until this point, but the elder brain ate the still liveing "Mind flayer" not knowing it was a dragon. After the meal, the powerful dragon's will conflicting with the brians, which caused it to order its followers to preform good deeds for no reason. However, the elder brian still lives, and does not know what is happing. in all the mental confusiong, some flayers are exposed to the dragons influence, and are come to understand the nature of good. However, being truly alien beings, they prefroms their actions according to a mix idea of good, and some are just as evil as their unelightened kin.
From,
EE

Arlanthe
2007-02-09, 03:02 AM
"Good drow" is not the cliche. It's a pretty meaningless twist on the same old predictable themes. (Not really a twist; it's just the shape or color of the cliche.)

The character is like an aggregate of all the Mary-Sue warning signs.

1. Strangely colored eyes.
2. Magical animal companion 2a. That kicks ass.
3. Super bad-ass fighter 3a. Who'd rather not fight all the time.
4. Outcast and loner 4a. With a tragic past. 4b. Who is misunderstood and wrongly persecuted but is so cool he doesn't hate the people who do it.
...

It goes on and on and on.

Can you share an example or two of characters in fantasy books that closely resemble Drizzt before he was created? That matches the above criteria? you probably can, I am just curious.

Dark
2007-02-09, 04:19 AM
1. Strangely colored eyes.
2. Magical animal companion 2a. That kicks ass.
3. Super bad-ass fighter 3a. Who'd rather not fight all the time.
4. Outcast and loner 4a. With a tragic past. 4b. Who is misunderstood and wrongly persecuted but is so cool he doesn't hate the people who do it.
...
Man, you've just described Elric.
(Since Stormbringer was alive, I say it counts as an "animal companion". Definitely of the magical and ass-kicking kind.)

Dhavaer
2007-02-09, 04:24 AM
I thought all of Elric's bunch had red eyes?

Thomas
2007-02-09, 05:24 AM
Elric was an anemic albino, which explained his appearance. (Of course people with albinism don't have red eyes, but you can't expect a 60s fantasy author to know that much. Most people will only have seen albino animals.) Melnibonéans mostly had dark hair, dark eyes, and dusky features. (Cymoril was an exception, I think, with honey-colored hair.)

And yeah, he does rather meet the Mary-Sue criteria, doesn't he?

Arlanthe: authors who create Mary-Sues rarely sell. (Unless they're writing D&D books, where the bar is very, very low indeed.) Mary-Sues are mostly seen in internet fanfiction. (Of course, by now precedent suggests that fanfiction is good enough to be published - if your parents own Paolini International, LCC...)

Arlanthe
2007-02-09, 06:03 AM
I complain a lot to my wife, a librarian with her MLIS and voracious reader, about forumula fiction. She reads a lot of mysteries and other forumula types. She always claims that in formula fiction "you take the basic recipe, play with the elements, and add some interesting twist that makes it an interesting version of the formula".

It does strike me that Mary-Sueism is rather formulaic. This thread has pretty much laid that out. But what makes the Mary-Sue formula any more abominable than any other forumula fiction element?

I means, scads of books have been written- so a version of everything possible has been written. We have terms like "hard boiled detective", and a "shapeshifter" that sum a characters type up in a word. David Howard, in his recent book about writing screenplays, claims there are only six kinds of characters based on motivation, and only a few "types".

So Mary-Sue is just another type, one that simply seems to annoy more people and is more controversial.

Indon
2007-02-09, 11:13 AM
Man, you've just described Elric.
(Since Stormbringer was alive, I say it counts as an "animal companion". Definitely of the magical and ass-kicking kind.)

I'm pretty sure that aspect of Elric is intentional, as a parody of the angst-ridden antihero.

And Stormbringer is like, the worst animal companion _ever_.

Gamebird
2007-02-09, 11:54 AM
So Mary-Sue is just another type, one that simply seems to annoy more people and is more controversial.

True. And there's even some Mary-Sue's that are worth reading. Most of them are so horribly self-wankering by the author that you feel gross just reading them. It's the shameless self-congratulatory feel of it that runs people off.

Wikipedia speaks better than I could about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-09, 03:32 PM
OTOH, not all Mary-Sues are bad. Grant Morrison inserts himself (well, a thinly disguised version) into his stories all the time, and usually in a major (if not the central) role. Yet the stories are never about "oh wow, this main character sure is one awesome dude" but usually very deconstructive and wildly imaginitive.

On another note, it always seemed to me like there was a bit of a fallacy in the term itself. Every writer puts at least a bit of himself into his characters--he has to, they came from his own mind--so in that sense every character is at least a little bit of a Mary Sue. Of course that's not the way the term is actually intended, but I think you could make a case that practically any character is his author's wish fullfillment fantasy on some level.

NecroPaladin
2007-02-10, 12:29 AM
It all depends on what you want the role of the race to be. If they're the whole "scourge of mankind" dealie, then if any good exists at all chances are it's in one abberant, and rarely more. If it's just a baseline evil race, then I treat good versions as just slightly less common than evil characters in the standard good races (as in, uncommon but not rare), due to the fact that you have to factor in persecution from evil being worse than the good variety, but otherwise it's not really abberant.

I really hate the drow cliche though. In my campaign world, sure you can be a good drow but like hell are you being "the sole outcast of my society, damned to war against my brothers and look really pretty doing it."

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-10, 12:43 AM
With D&D, everyone wants to be at least a little bad ass. I think that form of Mary Sue-ism is completely fine. So is basing the character off of yourself or your stylized ideals.

It's when the character becomes a flawless demigod that you have a true Mary Sue, and should hang your head in shame. Hang it, I say!

PirateMonk
2007-02-10, 08:51 AM
The Amberites are flawed demigods, as I said above (not arguing, I know he didn't refer to them at all). For that matter, so are the wizards in Archer's Goon.

As for the age discrepancy issue, I've noticed that that seems to apply to most drow created by Salvatore, not just Drizzt. In what sense do elves "mature" at age 110? For instance, in Homeland, Masoj is around 20 years older than Drizzt, but in a patrol group- lead by Dinin, who, since Briza is older than his father, could be 110+, but is still fairly young.

PirateMonk
2007-02-11, 11:24 AM
I guess this is dead...

EvilElitest
2007-02-12, 09:36 PM
"It all depends on what you want the role of the race to be. If they're the whole "scourge of mankind" dealie, then if any good exists at all chances are it's in one abberant, and rarely more. If it's just a baseline evil race, then I treat good versions as just slightly less common than evil characters in the standard good races (as in, uncommon but not rare), due to the fact that you have to factor in persecution from evil being worse than the good variety, but otherwise it's not really abberant.

I really hate the drow cliche though. In my campaign world, sure you can be a good drow but like hell are you being "the sole outcast of my society, damned to war against my brothers and look really pretty doing it."

Well, the race in question, Drow, don't have to be evil. They don't have the evil subtype, they are not outsiders, fey, or elementals, which often have to follow a perticular aliment. Sense they habe the ablity to be good, it is perfectly acceptable to be good. When a member in your group is a Drizzt Clone, then the sitation changes. Their is a fine line.

As for age, i think Salvator took some liberies with Drow's age, as he started the series in First edition. In his stories, Drizzt is currently 80-90, noted to be VERY YOUNG. Drow Progery. But bear in mind, drow culture, had not really been devolped at that point, and so it is perfectly acceptable to have drow culture have the young mature at an early age. It makes sense when you think about it. I mean, if you an evil drow, do you want to waste time for kids?

Rabiesbunny
2007-02-12, 10:37 PM
Sense they habe the ablity to be good, it is perfectly acceptable to be good. When a member in your group is a Drizzt Clone, then the sitation changes.

This is really true. Drow are able to be any alignment, even stuck down there in the Underdark (Was Zaknafein N or G?), but people just ALWAYS want to be the 'unique' ones. Drizzt himself was such a neat character. Once on NWN, I found a HUMAN clone of Drizzt, which surprised me. He too, was a Ranger of Mielliki who dual wielded scimitars, he just happened to be a human.

Didn't one of the 3.0 spurcebooks say Drow eyes are almost always red? I just read Underdark, and now it says their eyes can be almost ANY color. I just about screamed. His eyes are almost a gift from Lolth, because she's so nuts she loves to turn her society inside-out.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-12, 11:21 PM
Didn't one of the 3.0 spurcebooks say Drow eyes are almost always red? I just read Underdark, and now it says their eyes can be almost ANY color. I just about screamed. His eyes are almost a gift from Lolth, because she's so nuts she loves to turn her society inside-out.

That's what's great about chaotic deities, it is perfectly acceptable for them to do the exact opposite of what they are supposed to do. I sometimes wish Lolth acted more inconsistant on things (rewarding and punishing the same act all the time).

Wehrkind
2007-02-12, 11:25 PM
The problem with the Mary-Sue "archtype" is that they are essentially a deus-ex-machina. They typically are exceptional in all areas, and never have any sort of flaw of humanistic balance. They are a once character answer to everything, and are essentially the pinnacle of being.
As such, there is no story type that works with them on any level. There is no real "man vs nature" because all those skills just win. There can be no "man vs himself" because the character is perfect, with no flaws to overcome. "Man vs. Man" becomes silly because who can compete with them?

Take River from Firefly. Sure, she is telepathic, and has powers in combat that are leaps and bounds above other people. All in a 16 year old girl. Sounds Mary-Sue so far. However, she is not particularly noteworthy in appearance (no funky skin tone or cat tail, etc.) Further, she is off her nut. She is far from how an "ideal human" should act. She can't use her abilities reliably, and causes far more problems than she solves. Her trying to overcome these fatal flaws is what makes her a workable character.

Drizzt is dangerously close to M-S territory. Special eyes for no good reason, the "precocious youth" who is amazing thing, magical pet etc. His innerworkings and struggle to fit in help, but are not terribly realistic. He likes surface dwellers too much. As has been said, he doesn't hate them. Hell, he hardly feels much indignation. I can accept that after a point he understands and is used to it, but that really was not examined enough. He benefits, however, from the way others perceive him. The distrust and hate etc. do give him something to struggle against, at least in the early books. The ridiculous enemies he is pitted against sometimes push him towards M-S status, but also are theme appropriate, so they help too.

Still, I would have loved to see him just massacre a village mob who try to kill him. Just once, and he can be as contrite as he likes afterwards.

Rabiesbunny
2007-02-12, 11:27 PM
Still, I would have loved to see him just massacre a village mob who try to kill him. Just once, and he can be as contrite as he likes afterwards.

*Doubles over in laughter*

Dark
2007-02-13, 09:59 AM
Still, I would have loved to see him just massacre a village mob who try to kill him. Just once, and he can be as contrite as he likes afterwards.
No no no! You do not know what you invoke!

(cue contrition...)

"I killed them. I killed them all. They're dead, every single one of them. And not just the men, but the women and the children, too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I HATE THEM!"

Then he turns into Drizzt Vader, and before you know it you have ewoks all over the place. Don't do it!

Woot Spitum
2007-02-13, 11:35 AM
I think Drizzt Vader would be a huge improvement. Especially if he kills Catti-Brie in a fit of rage.

Fhaolan
2007-02-13, 11:57 AM
Can you share an example or two of characters in fantasy books that closely resemble Drizzt before he was created? That matches the above criteria? you probably can, I am just curious.

I can't give you a pre-Drizzt clone, but I can give you a good example of another Mary-Sue character in a published book.

The book is Uhura's Song by Janet Kagan. It's a Star Trek book, of course. :) It's actually quite good, about making first contact with a supposed primitive civilization in order to find a cure for a plague. The only jarring note is the Mary-Sue character of Dr. Evan Wilson.

Dr. Evan Wilson replaces Dr. McCoy as Chief Medical Officer because the good doctor is busy trying to come up with his own solution for the plague. A great deal of effort is gone into discribing Dr. Wilson's eyes, hair, and 'childlike' appearance. She is better martial artist than Kirk, a better navigator than Checkov, a better pilot than Sulu, a beter computer programmer than Spock, a better doctor than McCoy, a better engineer than Scotty, as well as a consumate historian, psychologist, survivalist, and so on. All the male characters are falling all over themselves trying to impress her.

At the end of the book, you find out that Dr. Wilson *isn't* Dr. Wilson, but is an unnamed pseudo-pirate who wanders the universe pretending to be other people for a giggle. This has nothing to do with the story whatsover, and is simply a throwaway.

Gamebird
2007-02-13, 12:18 PM
At the end of the book, you find out that Dr. Wilson *isn't* Dr. Wilson, but is an unnamed pseudo-pirate who wanders the universe pretending to be other people for a giggle. This has nothing to do with the story whatsover, and is simply a throwaway.

Ah, a member of the species Mary-Suesus. Very common, which is odd because the canon characters are always suprised by them. Must be a racial trait.


On another note: Drizzt Vader, dual weilding light sabers, with funny-colored eyes and outcast for no good reason... hey, we just discovered the secret background of Darth Maul!

Matthew
2007-02-13, 06:15 PM
I can't give you a pre-Drizzt clone, but I can give you a good example of another Mary-Sue character in a published book.

I can think of a television character who I often wonder about in relation to Drizzt. There's a Saracen character in the old Robin of Sherwood series, who uses two Scimitars and is one of Robin's companions. Not quite the same thing, I know, but if you look for the genesis of that character, then it's the 'reformed Pagan' archetype, a staple of Medieval Literature. The character rejects the ways of his people and joins their enemies, and sometimes encounters prejudice amongst them.

Helgraf
2007-02-14, 03:47 AM
I've got to stop doing that. Don't want to steal your thunder. :smallsmile:

Thunder, thunder, thundercats ho!

Okay, dating myself there...

Somebody has to.

"Ancient spirits of evil ...
transform this decaying visage into Mumm-Ra the Everliving!'

Wehrkind
2007-02-14, 05:51 AM
You see the "good bad person" type all over the place. For example : The Good Samaritan.
Apparently in Biblical times, amongst the Jews of Galilee (sp) Samaritans were so reviled that the notion that one was 'good' was enough to get people's attention.
Othello (the 'good' Moore) is another example. As a stock recurring archetype, it really goes pretty far back.

Now, as to giving the character fancy features, pets or abilities beyond "I am not vile like my bretheren", well, that's something else entirely.


Drizzt Vader is actually going to be a character in the Expanded Universe/Forgotten Realms crossover Lucas has planned for 4/01/2010. Mark Wahlberg is slated to play Drizzit Vader. Guenhyvar is going to talk, and have the personality of a sassy minority hooker with a heart of gold, voiced by Queen Latifa.
The Rebellion is led by Wickit Entrei, a clever Ewok hunter, who, after the Battle of Endor, joined the Rebels as an assassin, and climbed the ranks slaying Imperial Officers, and some suspect perhaps even rival Rebels.
The story centers around Elminster Skywalker-Mystra, a precocious 4 year old who is the great-great grand-son of Luke Skywalker and Lady Allustrial of Silvery-moon. Unbeknownst to them, he is also the great great grandson of Drizzt Vader, who, having seduced Allustrial with his violet eyes after her tryst with Luke, impregnated her with a second child. Both children had exceedingly high midochlorian blood levels, and fought out a light side/dark side inside the womb, which was incredibly emotionally scarring. In the end, both zygotes merged, the light zygote barely managing to contain the darkness inside it.
Now young Elminster ('Elmo' to his friends) must use his vast powers and plucky good spirits to face down the enemies of the New Republic both without and within. Accompanied by his transvestite stone golem Dolomite and spunky miniature android t-rex named 'The Big D-T!' (voiced by Snoop Dogg), Elmo must escape and finally overcome his dark heritage.
Fearing for the future of their order, the Jedi Knights, headed by Quigon "Blackstaff" Gin, secretly dispatches a Jedi team of.... I... I just can't anymore... it hurts.

PirateMonk
2007-02-14, 09:11 AM
No no no! You do not know what you invoke!

(cue contrition...)

"I killed them. I killed them all. They're dead, every single one of them. And not just the men, but the women and the children, too. They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I HATE THEM!"

Then he turns into Drizzt Vader, and before you know it you have ewoks all over the place. Don't do it!

And then he mysteriously appears fighting an inexplicably reincarnated Zaknafein over the pit of acid again- no.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-14, 11:34 AM
I think one of the things that frustrates me about Drizzt is the inconsistancy of his strength. In the first book he appears in, he kills a balor with one scimitar stab. But in the most recent series, he has trouble bringing down a handful of orcs. Does he feel the need to go easy on weaker foes? Is that why a small group of goblins (his favored enemy!) takes just as much time and trouble for him to bring down with help from his friends as it does for him to bring down a marilith by himself? And what makes Obould Many-Arrows so much more hardcore than Artemis Entreri?

Were-Sandwich
2007-02-14, 11:42 AM
I can think of a television character who I often wonder about in relation to Drizzt. There's a Saracen character in the old Robin of Sherwood series, who uses two Scimitars and is one of Robin's companions. Not quite the same thing, I know, but if you look for the genesis of that character, then it's the 'reformed Pagan' archetype, a staple of Medieval Literature. The character rejects the ways of his people and joins their enemies, and sometimes encounters prejudice amongst them.

I know the one you mean.

Matthew
2007-02-14, 12:05 PM
Good to know I am not totally alone...


I think one of the things that frustrates me about Drizzt is the inconsistancy of his strength. In the first book he appears in, he kills a balor with one scimitar stab. But in the most recent series, he has trouble bringing down a handful of orcs. Does he feel the need to go easy on weaker foes? Is that why a small group of goblins (his favored enemy!) takes just as much time and trouble for him to bring down with help from his friends as it does for him to bring down a marilith by himself? And what makes Obould Many-Arrows so much more hardcore than Artemis Entreri?

Yeah, well, Drizzt has a Strength 13 in most write ups, even in 3.0, but if you take a look at his roleplaying stats on the Miniature Cards his Strength has been upped to 20. No wonder he's got Strength issues...

It's worth recalling that the early books were written with the (A)D&D ruleset in mind where the difference between Strength 13 and Strength 17 was +1 to Hit and Damage. Strength 18 was a bit different, as there was percentile Strength to deal with, but even Strength 18/00 was only +3 to hit and +6 Damage. Very few Warrior characters were expected to have more than +2 to hit and damage from Strength.

The Glyphstone
2007-02-14, 12:16 PM
In Clive Cussler's Dirk Pitt books (somewhat formulaic James Bond/Indiana Jones action character)...he always has a character named "Clive Cussler":smile:, who shows up roughly near the third quarter of the book with some minor tidbit of information or aid that ends up allowing Dirk to save the day. Seems pretty Mary Sueish, but he doesn't exactly try to hide it, it's always a very minor character except for that one meeting (one book, is a fisherman that saves Dirk from a Chinese patrol boat; another, an old desert hermit who tells the story about a lost plane), so it seems a bit more tongue-in-cheek than a typical Mary Sue.

One of the books - Sahara - was made into a movie...anyone see it?

PirateMonk
2007-02-14, 01:43 PM
I think one of the things that frustrates me about Drizzt is the inconsistancy of his strength. In the first book he appears in, he kills a balor with one scimitar stab. But in the most recent series, he has trouble bringing down a handful of orcs. Does he feel the need to go easy on weaker foes? Is that why a small group of goblins (his favored enemy!) takes just as much time and trouble for him to bring down with help from his friends as it does for him to bring down a marilith by himself? And what makes Obould Many-Arrows so much more hardcore than Artemis Entreri?

Nitpick: He BANISHES the balor with two stabs. With an anti-fire weapon. I'm not sure about the exact circumstances of the orc fight, but there are any number of factors that could degrade his performance. But yes, I agree with you. Think hook horrors, though, not Errtu.

kamikasei
2007-02-14, 03:00 PM
Matthew, I don't think he meant Drizzt's actual Strength ability score...

Matthew
2007-02-14, 03:03 PM
Yeah, I know, but the books very closely resemble D&D mechanics (you can hear the dice rolling in most of the fights), so it is worth looking at Drizzt's apparently variable Strength from that perspective.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-14, 03:16 PM
Yeah, I know, but the books very closely resemble D&D mechanics (you can hear the dice rolling in most of the fights), so it is worth looking at Drizzt's apparently variable Strength from that perspective.

And that is my biggest problem with the books. You can write a character that is very powerful without turning the whole story into a Steven Seagal movie. There is nothing wrong with a character having little to no trouble with very weak enemies, as long as they have some more powerful foes to fight. Strangely, this is probably the one area where the story strays from the game (if you are 15+ levels ahead of a creatures CR AND have that creature as a favored enemy, that creature stands no chance of hurting you, even in fairly large numbers).

Talya
2007-02-14, 03:39 PM
Note that Drizzt gets fairly well beaten by some generic frost giants and Obould Many-Arrows in the Lone Drow series.

I'm telling ya, Salvatore's writing style has improved a thousand-fold since Icewind Dale, which was fun, but no work of high-fiction.

Raz
2007-02-14, 04:41 PM
Wehrkind, was post 125 a Valentine for all? Wow... I've been laughing about it for I don't know how long but thank you!

Wehrkind
2007-02-15, 03:07 AM
Hehe, I am glad you enjoyed it. More the work of a feavered and exhausted mind getting ahold of an idea and running with it to the horrible conclusion.

Granted, given Lucas' malefeance and D&D's inability to liscence to someone with a grain of interest in the francise and hobby, such a horrible chimera is probably not the least likely thing ever.

Er... I mean of course I didn't forget sweety! Happy Valetine's Day!

toddex
2007-02-15, 04:31 AM
I think that you are forgetting that Drizzt was trained by a human when he got to the surface and lived among good creatures (deep gnomes) for a time underground. I think his actions and attitudes are warranted. But all the clones out there can get a little silly except for the fact that the Drow do have a good Goddess (illustrae sp?) that makes sense for some of them to be good and have attitudes that reflect their races former surface life.

And I think your forgetting these morals were instilled in him by his father zacknef who lacked the strength to uphold them. So from an early age drizzt was taught about honor and loyalty. His sisters and mother being complete wenches helped also.

I dont know what im arguing, im just throwing crap out here.

Attilargh
2007-02-15, 05:04 AM
And I think your forgetting these morals were instilled in him by his father zacknef who lacked the strength to uphold them. So from an early age drizzt was taught about honor and loyalty.
I can't remember any scene of him really actively teaching Drizzt anything about morals, only not revealing how the Drow society really worked. That kid was born a saint.

As an aside, I was kinda shocked when I understood that the Bouldershoulder brothers and some other Good Salvatore characters are psychopaths. I'm also quite amused about how the plot of every single Salvatore book I have read is approximately:


[Protagonist] ends up in a fight against [monsters].
[Protagonist] kills said [monsters].
[Protagonist] angsts over his/her/its decision to kill the said [monsters], questioning the deed's justification.
Cut to [Antagonist].
Reveal [Antagonist]'s plans.
Cut to [Protagonist].
Have him/her/it battle more [monsters] and angst.
Before [Protagonist] defeats [Antagonist]/[monster horde], [Protagonist] reaches conclusion that it in fact is okay to kill monsters and enjoys opening a can of whoop-ass on said foes.

Neo
2007-02-15, 05:33 AM
Well he has that sociopathic hunter split personality dealy, which he suppresses rather than conquers.

Although I don't get where people see the 'precocious special youth' type, as if you were raised by the greatest weapons trainer n the city, who also made you question your society, I doubt you'd end up as a conformist with the hand eye co-ordination of a quadriplegic badger.

Edit:He knows his father would happily defy Malice on occasion, which is hardly the drow norm.

The problem with MSing is that it is purely subjective, and most often people end up finding a character and trying to make them conform to the MS idea.

EvilElitest
2007-02-15, 04:56 PM
Maybe I can get my point across by ranting them into submission.
"Drizzt is dangerously close to M-S territory. Special eyes for no good reason, the "precocious youth" His inner workings and struggle to fit in help, but are not terribly realistic.
It is hinted but not said that the special eyes were a gift from Lolth, who wants more chaos and death in Drizzt's home city. Hell, every good deed that Drizzt does help her in some way. Chaotic Evil to the core.
As for special youth, he is sheltered from the important parts of Drow politics and was raised with a specific code in mind. That fact that he honors it makes him 1 in a said 1,000,000,000 who does. In every culture there are strange slightly mad members, such as Drizzt, who is a little mad.
"who is amazing thing, magical pet etc."
Yeah, his class is ranger, and they tend to have animal companions.
"He likes surface dwellers too much. As has been said, he doesn't hate them. Hell, he hardly feels much indignation. I can accept that after a point he understands and is used to it, but that really was not examined enough. He benefits, however, from the way others perceive him. The distrust and hate etc. do give him something to struggle against, at least in the early books.
Yeah, I would hope he likes surface dwellers. I mean he choose to live their, so I would expect him to. I mean they as a whole are not as twisted and evil as any of the underdark races, so I would like them to.
As for not hating them, He is STRONGLY GOOD. Look at him as a character from the book of exalted deeds. It would not be evil to kill them in self defense, but it would not be good ether.
"The ridiculous enemies he is pitted against sometimes push him towards M-S status, but also are theme appropriate, so they help too."
Wow, a fantasy book based off of D&D has powerful enemies. Dam Salvatore, you’re the devil incarnate I say.
"Still, I would have loved to see him just massacre a village mob who try to kill him. Just once, and he can be as contrite as he likes afterwards."
Wow, you must be loved as a role-player in your group. So Drizzt likes to act as a slightly insane kick ass Christ, why not let him?
"HUMAN clone of Drizzt, which surprised me. He too, was a Ranger of Mielliki who dual wielded scimitars, he just happened to be a human."
Strange but I’ve seen worst clones on WOW
"Drizzt Vader is actually going to be a character in the Expanded Universe/Forgotten Realms crossover Lucas has planned for 4/01/2010. Mark Wahlberg is slated to play Drizzt Vader. Guenhyvar is going to talk, and have the personality of a sassy minority hooker with a heart of gold, voiced by Queen Latifa.
The Rebellion is led by Wickit Enteri, a clever Ewok hunter, who, after the Battle of Endor, joined the Rebels as an assassin, and climbed the ranks slaying Imperial Officers, and some suspect perhaps even rival Rebels.
The story centers around Elminster Skywalker-Mystra, a precocious 4 year old who is the great-great grand-son of Luke Skywalker and Lady Allustrial of Silvery-moon. Unbeknownst to them, he is also the great great grandson of Drizzt Vader, who, having seduced Allustrial with his violet eyes after her tryst with Luke, impregnated her with a second child. Both children had exceedingly high midochlorian blood levels, and fought out a light side/dark side inside the womb, which was incredibly emotionally scarring. In the end, both zygotes merged, the light zygote barely managing to contain the darkness inside it.
Now young Elminster ('Elmo' to his friends) must use his vast powers and plucky good spirits to face down the enemies of the New Republic both without and within. Accompanied by his transvestite stone golem Dolomite and spunky miniature android t-rex named 'The Big D-T!' (voiced by Snoop Dogg), Elmo must escape and finally overcome his dark heritage.
Fearing for the future of their order, the Jedi Knights, headed by Quigon "Blackstaff" Gin, secretly dispatches a Jedi team of.... I... I just can't anymore... it hurts."
OH SWEET CHRIST ABOVE, IT BURNS MY EYES! MY EYES THEY BURN!!!!!!!!!!!
I will use that for a horror moive "When fandom goes TO FAR+George Lucus
"And then he mysteriously appears fighting an inexplicably reincarnated Zaknafein over the pit of acid again"
The book explains that, spirt wraiths were in first or second edition, so salvatore was using a D&D monster
"I think one of the things that frustrates me about Drizzt is the inconsistancy of his strength. In the first book he appears in, he kills a balor with one scimitar stab. But in the most recent series, he has trouble bringing down a handful of orcs. Does he feel the need to go easy on weaker foes? Is that why a small group of goblins (his favored enemy!) takes just as much time and trouble for him to bring down with help from his friends as it does for him to bring down a marilith by himself? And what makes Obould Many-Arrows so much more hardcore than Artemis Entreri?"
I would like to point out, the balor in question was summoned into a space where he could not move at all, was attacked from both sides unable to move his arms (he like squeezed against the walls, can't turn around) up against a foe he does not know and all of his attacks suddenly don't affect (Drizzt is flame proof). Also Drizzt is using a weapon that will hurt his kind more a LOT. And Drizzt almost dies there; I would like to point out. And a "Handful of orcs" is like a COUPLE HUNDRED. Drizzt is like level 18-20 I think, that is still hard. As for the goblins 1. They are in huge numbers 2. Drizzt does not have trouble; Salvatore is just describing the fight in vast detail.
Obould is using freakishly good stuff and Drizzt beats him in two fights. Fight 1 he realizing he can't hurt him. Fight two, he wins.
As for Entreri, he is still alive and has his own freaking series. And he has fought Drizzt like 7 times and is still alive, with three draws and a win to his count.
"Note that Drizzt gets fairly well beaten by some generic frost giants and Obould Many-Arrows in the Lone Drow series. "
Because he was in a situation where all the odds were against him, because he was tricked and out thought.
" can't remember any scene of him really actively teaching Drizzt anything about morals, only not revealing how the Drow society really worked. That kid was born a saint."
What the hell is the entire part 1 of book one. That is Drizzt being taught the morals. Dam, that is like saying "I did not notice any short people in LOTR"
"As an aside, I was kind of shocked when I understood that the Bouldershoulder brothers and some other Good Salvatore characters are psychopaths. "
The Bouldershoulder brothers are just dwarves in a middle age fantasy setting. They like to fight, but they have as yet not killed innocent people
"Protagonist] ends up in a fight against [monsters].
[Protagonist] kills said [monsters].
[Protagonist] angsts over his/her/its decision to kill the said [monsters], questioning the deed's justification.
Cut to [Antagonist].
Reveal [Antagonist]'s plans.
Cut to [Protagonist].
Have him/her/it battle more [monsters] and angst.
Before [Protagonist] defeats [Antagonist]/[monster horde], [Protagonist] reaches conclusion that it in fact is okay to kill monsters and enjoys opening a can of whoop-ass on said foes."
Be a bit more general

At first the only thing I did not like about Salvador’s books was his apparent hesitance too kill off characters, but it turns out he can't. If you read other of his books, the non FR ones, he kills off his characters pretty easily. I mean in Mortalis, we lose maybe 12 characters, who we have known. But it turns out FR owns the rights to all of Salvador’s FR characters, so he can't kill them off without their permission. And they want Drizzt to live. Why do you think Enterai has his own series now, with Jarlaxe no less? Because FR liked both characters and keeps them alive. They live on.
Please respond

Gamebird
2007-02-15, 05:50 PM
Maybe i can get my point across by ranting them into submission....
PLease respond

I am unconvinced by your rant. But on the other hand, I've never read any of the Drizzt books, nor anything by Salvatore. I just know the clones and knock-offs are irritating in their pretense and angst. The "good bad person" annoys me when it is not accompanied by enough "bad bad persons" to justify their stereotype as being bad people.

JadedDM
2007-02-15, 06:02 PM
I, too, an unconvinced by your rant...but largely because it rambled and is filled with typos and poor grammar. Sorry.

Dark
2007-02-15, 06:15 PM
The "good bad person" annoys me when it is not accompanied by enough "bad bad persons" to justify their stereotype as being bad people.
Heh, now you've set my plot-making wheels turning :)

If you're the DM, the solution to this annoyance is to create an adequate supply of "bad bad persons" to provide the contrast. The problem with drow is that their evil is not very visible, being underground and all, so it's hard to justify a lot of prejudice against drow. Except among elves, who have long memories.

So... let's make it more visible!

Option A: When our chaotic good scimitar-wielding rebel escaped from drow society, it was not without making enemies. The drow periodically send out hunting parties to track him down and kill him. Every time the PC does something noteworthy in public (and how does a drow not get noticed?), a hunting party investigates by interrogating (torturing) any witnesses (i.e. everyone the PC has ever interacted with), and then brutally cutting their way through whatever obstacles are between them and their prey. So wherever the PC goes, the countryside will be abuzz with rumors of murderous drow.

Option B: When our chaotic good scimitar-wielding rebel escaped from drow society, it was not alone. Several other drow escaped and now try to live among the surface-dwellers as good citizens. They know of each other, but generally keep a low profile. But then... over time... one by one... each of the other drow betrays the people around them in deeply evil ways. Every time it happens, people view "good" drow with renewed suspicion.

Option B doesn't have to be very flashy, you can play it for psychological effect, and you can hang quite a plot on it :) And of course you can use option A and B together...

PirateMonk
2007-02-16, 05:43 PM
"And then he mysteriously appears fighting an inexplicably reincarnated Zaknafein over the pit of acid again"
The book explains that, spirt wraiths were in first or second edition, so salvatore was using a D&D monster


I wasn't referring to the spirit wraith. That was simply an excuse to get Drizzt Vader horribly burned in a duel with his mentor, and force him to get cybernetics and a bizarre suit.
And yes, you tend to be taken more seriously with proper spelling. Also, is there some reason you're not using the Multi-quote button? (In the lower right corner, a quotation mark and + sign. Just click on it for every thing you want to quote, and click Post Reply. Very useful.)

EvilElitest
2007-02-16, 11:44 PM
Ok three points
1. Gambird, if you have not read the Drizzt books, then the rant serves no real purpose to you and their for their is nothing i can hope to convience of, as i am arguing against clones. No need to state to glarenly obvouis.
2. JadedDM, ignoring personal problems between me and the English laugange, the content of the rant was what i was hoping to convience you with. If i was trying to convience you that the vast majority of forum users are good spellers, then you have full right to ignore the content. But as it is, that is besides the point and theirfor content is what needs to be judged. I may seems a little be over bearing here, but you said you where unconvienced, instead of unable to understand.
3. Now that i understand you PirateMonk, i can now say i fullheartly agree with you. And, while this may be my southern inabilty to grasp new tech (Yes i am bitter) i can't seem to find the multi quote. I also wanted to see how many posts it took before somebody commented. Thanks

Folie
2007-02-17, 12:38 AM
theirfor content is what needs to be judged.

If you want us to respect what you have to say, at least TRY to communicate as clearly as you can. If spelling and grammar are problems for you, try typing out your posts in MS Word, spell-checking them, then copy-pasting them into the reply boxes. It takes an extra minute or so, but it's worth it.

But if being understood just isn't important to you, then by all means continue to post gibberish. I mean, clearly expressing your ideas is only the goal of writing and all, it's not like you have to make sense....

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-17, 02:25 AM
Sadly, it seems an overly large portion of the public actually likes Mary Sues. Not just with Drizz't. Think anime and you should see it immediately.

The age old argument "He is most kewl because he is strongest!". It's a pretty bizarre paradox.

Nevermore
2007-02-17, 03:06 AM
oddly enough I dislike "uber characters" and prefer underdogs

EaterofElves
2007-02-17, 03:29 AM
Could people please try to make their overblown arguements in point form? Those of us that don't have ADD are trying to read these threads at three in the morning...

Yes R. A. Salvatore is a bad writer overall but his moments of brillance almost make up for it at times. His main problem it that his villians always outshine his heroes.

Sure I liked Drizzt at first... then I realised how hollow and boring a character he is once you get past his gimick. Jalaxle and Artemis are much more interesting characters. Geez it must be hard to write a heroic novel when readers can't help but cheer for the bad guys despite a few minor atrocities here and there.

A good drow makes no practical sense (wrecking the whole point of having drow) a neutral drow you can argue but for real roleplaying fun take an evil drow pretending to be Drizzt Clone while quieting stockpiling treasure and artif... crap I think just described Jaraxle.

Dark
2007-02-17, 08:43 AM
Sadly, it seems an overly large portion of the public actually likes Mary Sues. Not just with Drizz't. Think anime and you should see it immediately.
Well, the Mary Sue concept seems to have been washed out to mean "any character that is cool". In any case, applying this fan-fiction concept to canon works is problematic in itself.

If a large portion of the public likes characters that are cool, then what exactly is wrong with them?

Take James Bond, for example. He's good at everything, and damn sexy to boot. Clearly a Mary Sue :-) The series would be so much better without him.

The Prince of Cats
2007-02-17, 08:59 AM
Take James Bond, for example. He's good at everything, and damn sexy to boot. Clearly a Mary Sue :-)

Er... I would actually hold up Bond as the perfect example of a Mary-Sue.

One day, Fleming sat down at the poker table with some very rich (but, in his mind, evil) men and decided to bankrupt them with his amazing poker skills.

The story goes that he left the casino, having lost all of his money, and wrote a book about what should have taken place at the Casino Royale that night.

Dark
2007-02-17, 09:24 AM
Er... I would actually hold up Bond as the perfect example of a Mary-Sue.
Yes.

But what's wrong with him?

That was my point :)

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-17, 11:56 AM
Bond's boring after the first half-dozen books/films.

What? It's true. You already know everything he's going to do. It's the villains that make the Bond series.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-17, 04:35 PM
The one problem I see with the Bond/Drizzt/Mary Sue comparison is Bond's personality. Rather than agonize over the deaths he's caused, he makes jokes (frequently involving bad puns) about them. His personality is shallow and flippant, his relationships casual and short-term, and his care about the ideas and desires of others is minimal. So, while he may be the perfect spy, he is far from the perfect person. He is not the single enlightened mind struggling against the status quo of the world. In fact, he frequently is fighting against these sort of people. He is a man of action, not deep thoughts.

Suzaku
2007-02-17, 04:41 PM
The one problem I see with the Bond/Drizzt/Mary Sue comparison is Bond's personality. Rather than agonize over the deaths he's caused, he makes jokes (frequently involving bad puns) about them. His personality is shallow and flippant, his relationships casual and short-term, and his care about the ideas and desires of others is minimal. So, while he may be the perfect spy, he is far from the perfect person. He is not the single enlightened mind struggling against the status quo of the world. In fact, he frequently is fighting against these sort of people. He is a man of action, not deep thoughts.

Ummm... I believe he's a crappy spy after all he always blows his cover and alerts others that he has infiltrated the area.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-17, 04:53 PM
Ummm... I believe he's a crappy spy after all he always blows his cover and alerts others that he has infiltrated the area.

I meant as a movie spy, whose job is to take down evil geniuses, not a real spy, whose job is mainly to watch things. I agree that in the real world, his style of spying (and the fact that everyone knows who he is) would keep him from accomplishing anything useful. But of course the real world is notably short of Blofelds, Goldfingers, and Scaramangas.

The_Werebear
2007-02-17, 05:30 PM
At 4:55 am last night(while on copius amounts of caffine), I had either an incredibly good or an incredibly stupid idea: Drow Paladin of Lolth, working inside drow society. This is an honest, good intentioned, fair minded person working inside the most decadent and evil society ever. What's more, is he is taking his appropriate ideas for paladining from human society. So, he does things like walks into the high temple of Lolth and arrests a high priest for murder, then takes her to jail and locks her up.

No one knows what to make of him, or what do do with him. He is in Lolth's high favor (thus making him near sacrosanct*), and he has detected, defeated, and arrested the people who tried to assassinate him. He has no ideas of overturning the society in general, just enforcing the laws (of human society).

In a more backstory terms, Lolth gave him paladin powers and goals in order simply for the sheer destructive chaos a sacrosanct* LG person would cause in CE dark elf society. That, and she hopes he will become hopeless, go insane, and be a blackguard.

Any comments on the stupidity/genius of the idea?

*Sacrosanct: Made sacred, anyone who touches you with intent to harm or kill puts a death sentance on themselves.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-02-17, 05:35 PM
I think the brilliance or stupidity of that idea depends greatly on the quality of the writing/roleplaying.

Woot Spitum
2007-02-17, 05:49 PM
At 4:55 am last night(while on copius amounts of caffine), I had either an incredibly good or an incredibly stupid idea: Drow Paladin of Lolth, working inside drow society. This is an honest, good intentioned, fair minded person working inside the most decadent and evil society ever. What's more, is he is taking his appropriate ideas for paladining from human society. So, he does things like walks into the high temple of Lolth and arrests a high priest for murder, then takes her to jail and locks her up.

No one knows what to make of him, or what do do with him. He is in Lolth's high favor (thus making him near sacrosanct*), and he has detected, defeated, and arrested the people who tried to assassinate him. He has no ideas of overturning the society in general, just enforcing the laws (of human society).

In a more backstory terms, Lolth gave him paladin powers and goals in order simply for the sheer destructive chaos a sacrosanct* LG person would cause in CE dark elf society. That, and she hopes he will become hopeless, go insane, and be a blackguard.

Any comments on the stupidity/genius of the idea?

*Sacrosanct: Made sacred, anyone who touches you with intent to harm or kill puts a death sentance on themselves.

Genius. Sheer, unadulterated genius. I think it is perfectly fitting for Lolth to make a paladin just to completely shake up drow society. It's like the anti-Drizzt.

Pastafarian
2007-02-17, 06:36 PM
I think the brilliance or stupidity of that idea depends greatly on the quality of the writing/roleplaying.

You'd also have to wave a few paladin rules, but I think it could be worth it.


I meant as a movie spy, whose job is to take down evil geniuses, not a real spy, whose job is mainly to watch things. I agree that in the real world, his style of spying (and the fact that everyone knows who he is) would keep him from accomplishing anything useful. But of course the real world is notably short of Blofelds, Goldfingers, and Scaramangas.

Has anyone else read "Indiana Jones Denied Tenure"?

EvilElitest
2007-02-17, 10:39 PM
Ok two points and a question

"If you want us to respect what you have to say, at least TRY to communicate as clearly as you can. If spelling and grammar are problems for you, try typing out your posts in MS Word, spell-checking them, then copy-pasting them into the reply boxes. It takes an extra minute or so, but it's worth it.

But if being understood just isn't important to you, then by all means continue to post gibberish. I mean, clearly expressing your ideas is only the goal of writing and all, it's not like you have to make sense...."

Ok changed it in an edit. But congrats on evading the question again. you could work in marketing. Not having to mad an answer and attempted wit, you seems suited

As for the drow palidin, it is a great idea, as Lolth would seem like the time to try to destroy her own culture with a palidin. Just three questions.
1. What holy power would grant him powers of a palidin? Lolth can't, and she needs to trick into giving him powers
2. what does lolth plan to do to stop him in the end. Because she can't allow her culture to become good, just a different evil
3. How do the drow take this?

And a question, is the argument still on? Because people are now talking about Mary Sue, and i think the real point of this thread is to talk about good drow as sterootypes, and whether that is bad or not? I want to say, that it is perfectly alright to have good drow, as long as they are not Drizzt Clones. I don't want to repeat my self about my thoughts on Drizzt himself, see earlier posts.

"Sadly, it seems an overly large portion of the public actually likes Mary Sues. Not just with Drizz't. Think anime and you should see it immediately."
Well i have the answer for that, or a least in the states. In the states, we have a very obsessive need to have romantic characters. They have to fill a very perticuler stereotype, often set down by the actions of one acter (note, this is a generalzation, not a rule. I know this is not the case will all americans, just the majority i have encounter in my travels thoughout the states, where i am a native). Clint Eastwood for example, is the american ideal of the "Bad Ass Gunman" Stereotype an all others copy off him. Bond is the spy stereotype and all spy films copy after him.
Also we americans love the romantic "super hero" type characters and can't stand having them fail in any way. That is why in a lot of american films (like some involving the current govener of Califonia) have a basiclly unbeatable main character and an unspeakable evil villian. VERY black and white all around. When you don't want to really think about the characters, it is easy to paint the story so. So the unspeakable quality is very easy to expain. We are surrpose to love the hero, so he can't get hurt in anyway ever. Ect.

The_Werebear
2007-02-17, 11:51 PM
Ok two points and a question

"If you want us to respect what you have to say, at least TRY to communicate as clearly as you can. If spelling and grammar are problems for you, try typing out your posts in MS Word, spell-checking them, then copy-pasting them into the reply boxes. It takes an extra minute or so, but it's worth it.

As for the drow palidin, it is a great idea, as Lolth would seem like the time to try to destroy her own culture with a palidin. Just three questions.
1. What holy power would grant him powers of a palidin? Lolth can't, and she needs to trick into giving him powers
2. what does lolth plan to do to stop him in the end. Because she can't allow her culture to become good, just a different evil
3. How do the drow take this?



As for the paladin...

Lolth is exactly the type, from the proof we have, to introduce huge amounts of chaos into her society for the fun of it. She is into the whole idea of "the weak are weeded out by the strong," and this is a new challange for her followers.
1) Capturing a good outsider and draining him of his powers, or granting him via unholy means the power to detect unholy people and smite them.
2) She hopes he will go insane and become a powerful blackguard. If that fails, she can always remove her blessing and leave him high and dry in a city full of people who hate his guts.
3) With confusion, chaos, destruction, and hatred. Just the way she likes it.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-02-18, 12:08 AM
American's don't have some special disposition towards flawless heroes. We call those movies "Summer blockbusters" or "popcorn flicks" because we're supposed to check our rational thinking at the door and eat up the high-octane action without stopping to really appreciate the characters, since there really isn't much to them. The only people that think differently seem to be children or people with very simple tastes. They're also not Mary Sue's in these films (usually) simply because they don't get enough screen time to show off that many talents besides tons of testosterone, and their "hero shield" is the only thing they really have going for them outside of maybe some ridiculous throw-away subplot about being an ex-marine or something.

A true Mary Sue makes almost everyone in their story completely redundant and obsolete merely by existing. They can always do everything everyone else can do, only ten times better and faster. That sort of godly versatility is what actually draws in Mary Sue fans, and it's hardly an American thing. Most ancient mythologies are full of Mary Sues. Anime, as mentioned before, is practically made of Mary Sues. Plenty of nations around the world look for and revere supposed real-life Mary Sues (won't get into details here, against board rules and all).

Mary Sue is someone you look up to, basically. Or you're supposed to, anyway. The idea of someone that strong and good in the world makes you feel safe, at the cost of telling a better story. But to a lot of people, that's more important.

EvilElitest
2007-02-18, 12:27 AM
2 points

1. I really like the paladin idea. I just would like to point out that Lolth's final goal would have to be evil. Driving him insane is a very good idea.
2. I used americans for my example, because that is hte culture where i am raised and i think i have a complete understanding of. I should have mentioned this earlier, but I PERSONALLY belive what i said ealier applies to more nations than america, but i don't know enough about other nations to say that while trully certain. Therefor, i used america as an example because i have lived here all my life and i hope i can say i understand it. I understand american culture better than i understand anyother culture (Even though i major in culture) simple because i live here. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
From,
EE

PirateMonk
2007-02-18, 10:26 AM
A true Mary Sue makes almost everyone in their story completely redundant and obsolete merely by existing. They can always do everything everyone else can do, only ten times better and faster. That sort of godly versatility is what actually draws in Mary Sue fans, and it's hardly an American thing. Most ancient mythologies are full of Mary Sues. Anime, as mentioned before, is practically made of Mary Sues. Plenty of nations around the world look for and revere supposed real-life Mary Sues (won't get into details here, against board rules and all).

Mary Sue is someone you look up to, basically. Or you're supposed to, anyway. The idea of someone that strong and good in the world makes you feel safe, at the cost of telling a better story. But to a lot of people, that's more important.

Yeah, pretty much the only thing Drizzt can't do is magic (beyond his two tricks). But wait, no one in his party can use magic anyway. Whoops...

Scorpina
2007-02-18, 11:52 AM
But what's wrong with him?


The fact that you know he's never going to lose. Anything. Ever.

That and the rampant mysogeny.

EvilElitest
2007-02-18, 01:19 PM
Yeah, pretty much the only thing Drizzt can't do is magic (beyond his two tricks). But wait, no one in his party can use magic anyway. Whoops...

Yeah and Drizzt and his band have gotten into a lot of trouble because of their lack of casters. And as i said before, the reason they don't die, is because FR does not allow Salvator to let them die because they own the copy right.

Thomas
2007-02-18, 02:17 PM
What? It's true. You already know everything he's going to do. It's the villains that make the Bond series.

Nobody I know knew he was going to be so damned rugged and sexy in the new movie, though.

Hooray for the massive franchise re-launches of the 21st century! Bond and Batman succeeded beyond all expectations...


So, he does things like walks into the high temple of Lolth and arrests a high priest for murder, then takes her to jail and locks her up.

Were you perchance reading Pratchett's Guards, Guards! ? :smallamused:

EvilElitest
2007-02-18, 02:31 PM
Anyways, what does anyone have to say about the idea of the thread?
From,
EE

Woot Spitum
2007-02-18, 02:41 PM
Yeah and Drizzt and his band have gotten into a lot of trouble because of their lack of casters. And as i said before, the reason they don't die, is because FR does not allow Salvator to let them die because they own the copy right.

The funny thing is, whenever Salvatore introduces spellcasters, he can't seem to kill them off fast enough. The killing is almost always done by melee fighters, frequently because they outthink the casters. I know it might end the book rather abruptly, but why has no one thought of casting Grease on Obould Many-Arrows?

The_Werebear
2007-02-18, 05:06 PM
Were you perchance reading Pratchett's Guards, Guards! ? :smallamused:

Read it before, didn't think about it until now. But yeah, pretty much like that.

Renrik
2007-02-18, 07:33 PM
Step 1: Cover Obould in pig-fat.

Step 2: Fireball

PirateMonk
2007-02-18, 07:50 PM
Step 1: Cover Obould in pig-fat.

Step 2: Fireball

And you have a convenient Summon Pig Fat spell? Or do you out wit him, in much the same way as you would a caster with an Intelligence of as much as 8 higher than yours?

Thomas
2007-02-18, 08:02 PM
That and the rampant mysogeny.

Really? I don't recall noticing that, but I last read Salvatore years before I became, as one might say, aware of my entitlement as a SWM. What sort of misogyny abounds? (Thinking quickly, I imagine it's got to do with Catti-Brie. Er, the fact I can't think of any other non-drow-villain female characters in the books might also have something to do with it.)

Woot Spitum
2007-02-18, 08:08 PM
Really? I don't recall noticing that, but I last read Salvatore years before I became, as one might say, aware of my entitlement as a SWM. What sort of misogyny abounds? (Thinking quickly, I imagine it's got to do with Catti-Brie. Er, the fact I can't think of any other non-drow-villain female characters in the books might also have something to do with it.)

The frost giant queen from the lone drow series. But I don't think it has anything to do with the villains.

Scorpina
2007-02-18, 08:09 PM
The mysogeny is in Bond, not Drizzt. Should have been more careful with my quote-snipping.

Though yeah... Catt-Brie is scarecly the vision of female empowerment, and there's something about the link between matriarchy and evil that seems kinda iffy...

Thomas
2007-02-18, 08:13 PM
Oh, right. I didn't realize the quoted comment was about Bond.

Woot Spitum: Is that Gerti Orelsdotter? Wow, didn't know she got into a book.

PirateMonk
2007-02-18, 08:18 PM
The frost giant queen from the lone drow series. But I don't think it has anything to do with the villains.

Nitpick: Talya also made this mistake. It's actually the Hunter's Blades Trilogy. The Lone Drow is book two.

EvilElitest
2007-02-18, 08:55 PM
The funny thing is, whenever Salvatore introduces spellcasters, he can't seem to kill them off fast enough. The killing is almost always done by melee fighters, frequently because they outthink the casters. I know it might end the book rather abruptly, but why has no one thought of casting Grease on Obould Many-Arrows?

I think it is a running gag on spell casters with low wisdom. As for the grease idea, i don't know. But i do know that they blew up an entire mountain.
From,
EE

Pvednes
2007-02-19, 09:45 AM
If you're going to play a Drow anything, save your group some misery and keep it evil.

Suzaku
2007-02-19, 09:49 AM
If you're going to play a Drow anything, save your group some misery and keep it evil.

Why? My good drow is not anything like Drizzt aside from being good. Click Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35330) for more info.

Pvednes
2007-02-19, 10:09 AM
Why? My good drow is not anything like Drizzt aside from being good. Click Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35330) for more info.

Because it's missing the point of the Drow.

Surfacer distrust and fear of the Drow is not a racist allegory--it's not because of the colour of their skin, it's because the Drow want to raze their cities, slaughter and enslave their inhabitants, and build temples of blood on their defiled graves.

The Drow don't want acceptance, they want to work you to death in the adamantine mines, and then maybe have an oiled massage and a pit-fight before slaughtering babies for the glory of the Spider Queen.

Arlanthe
2007-02-19, 10:11 AM
Why? My good drow is not anything like Drizzt aside from being good. Click Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35330) for more info.

It has nothing to do with "Drizzt" and everything to do with "good Drow". Even if Drizzt is emo and you are happy-go-lucky, the concept is the same. A "different" Drow trying to overcome their racial prejudices etc, etc. It's possible, but it's been done before. Over, and over, and over. And over, and over, and over. At least the emo thing seems more in line with what an isolated, alienated person would become after being a part of Drow society.

Anyway, I've seen more "good Drow" than basic human fighters! The Drow are by and large not good, they are listed as "evil", but you hardly even see an evil Drow anymore.

Meh.

Pvednes
2007-02-19, 10:11 AM
Frankly, that's what makes the Drow so much fun.

Pvednes
2007-02-19, 10:17 AM
Not to mention, an isolated, alienated Drow would not get emo, it'd get annihilated by the merciless bloodlust of its fellow Drow.

Suzaku
2007-02-19, 10:23 AM
Not to mention, an isolated, alienated Drow would not get emo, it'd get annihilated by the merciless bloodlust of its fellow Drow.
Who said she isolated? She was born into a family along that lived in a surface comunity that worships Eilistraee. She has never set foot in the underdark and has only heard stories of what has happened down there. Eilistraee is a lesser deity with from several thousands worshipers to tens of thousands.

EvilElitest
2007-02-19, 11:34 AM
Because it's missing the point of the Drow.

Surfacer distrust and fear of the Drow is not a racist allegory--it's not because of the colour of their skin, it's because the Drow want to raze their cities, slaughter and enslave their inhabitants, and build temples of blood on their defiled graves.

The Drow don't want acceptance, they want to work you to death in the adamantine mines, and then maybe have an oiled massage and a pit-fight before slaughtering babies for the glory of the Spider Queen.

And your missing the point of role playing. If drow were all evil, they would have been given the evil subtype and have 'Always evil" as their aligment.
As it is, if a player wants to play a drow, it is ok as long as they don't become a Drizzt clone, which means not making up their own personality.
From,
EE

Woot Spitum
2007-02-19, 03:06 PM
And your missing the point of role playing. If drow were all evil, they would have been given the evil subtype and have 'Always evil" as their aligment.
As it is, if a player wants to play a drow, it is ok as long as they don't become a Drizzt clone, which means not making up their own personality.
From,
EE

That may be true, but it doesn't necessarily convince a DM who is against using good drow characters to make an exception for you. If you really want to be a drow cleric, you may have to change a few things about your character in order for the DM to approve. If you can show you are willing to compromise on some things, the DM may let you go ahead with at least part of your original idea. Refusing to change any part of your character is a good way to get a flat no.

Dausuul
2007-02-19, 03:15 PM
IMO, a large part of the annoyance factor in the "good drow" is the business about struggling against racial stereotypes, with the implication that surfacers are being unreasonable in judging 100% of drow based on the fact that 99% of drow are murderous psychopaths and there's no easy way to tell which ones are the non-murderous 1%.

I think it could be a lot of fun to play a good drow who trades on the racial stereotype instead of heroically struggling against it. Most of the time, he goes around cloaked, hooded, and masked (or wearing a hat of disguise to look like a normal elf). But whenever he needs to intimidate someone, he takes off the disguise and pretends to be a twisted terrifying dark elf warrior. Likewise, he uses his dark elf "cachet" to get him an in with the unsavory elements of human society.

I know Drizzt has done this on occasion, but it's not SOP for him.

Gamebird
2007-02-19, 04:58 PM
What I find annoying about it is that all the PCs are required to be open-minded and willing to adventure with this fellow, rather than turn him in to the nearest authorities for questioning. I hate character concepts that only work if the other PCs have the Detect Player Character ability.

Of course I must say with the way the "good bad guy" concept has been beaten to death, I fully expect every drow, half orc or half hobgoblin or tiefling whatever to be a paladin or a cleric of good or something similar. This only applies when they're introduced singly. It's like an alignment version of the single-ninja-corollary (that ninjas get weaker in proportion to how many of them there are) - which is that evil aligned creatures are always exalted-level Good if encountered alone.

Thomas
2007-02-19, 05:43 PM
Because it's missing the point of the Drow.

Honestly, it gets dull repeating "Eilistraee!"

Blah blah blah, it's all fine except none of it applies to an entire established "church."

There are entire communities of good-aligned surface drow in Faerūn. Crying about how they're all supposed to be evil is just pointless, when it's patently not true.

Gamebird
2007-02-19, 06:24 PM
Honestly, it gets dull repeating "Eilistraee!"

Blah blah blah, it's all fine except none of it applies to an entire established "church."

There are entire communities of good-aligned surface drow in Faerūn. Crying about how they're all supposed to be evil is just pointless, when it's patently not true.

The church really doesn't matter, because the feeling I get from reading is that the game designers/writers created the church merely to justify all the Drizzt clones.

Part of the problem is that once drow are an accepted and normal part of society, then being a Drizzt clone loses the important patina of outsiderness, if you're part of a large, well established faith. I suppose that is one way of discouraging it - make it common and everyday so that no one plays a tragically misunderstood outcast drow any more than they're an outcast elf or dwarf or human.

The faith of Eilistraee hits me just like ravages and deathless - an attempt to circumvent the core assumptions of the system. Poison use has been "wrong" since D&D's earliest incarnation (I disagree, but it's clearly what the writers intended). Undead have been evil since D&D's earliest incarnation (there have often been exceptions, but not an entire race of exceptions - and the exceptions were usually Neutral).

I feel like it's a cheat.

EvilElitest
2007-02-19, 10:03 PM
The church really doesn't matter, because the feeling I get from reading is that the game designers/writers created the church merely to justify all the Drizzt clones.

Part of the problem is that once drow are an accepted and normal part of society, then being a Drizzt clone loses the important patina of outsiderness, if you're part of a large, well established faith. I suppose that is one way of discouraging it - make it common and everyday so that no one plays a tragically misunderstood outcast drow any more than they're an outcast elf or dwarf or human.

The faith of Eilistraee hits me just like ravages and deathless - an attempt to circumvent the core assumptions of the system. Poison use has been "wrong" since D&D's earliest incarnation (I disagree, but it's clearly what the writers intended). Undead have been evil since D&D's earliest incarnation (there have often been exceptions, but not an entire race of exceptions - and the exceptions were usually Neutral).

I feel like it's a cheat.

In reality the church of Eilistraee was created in FR because they wanted to surrport people who wanted to play drow not for the drama of being one of a kind, but for those who just like the race. For example, if i want to play a good drow, but not one who is struggling against my kin, then i can play one. That goes for netral and non loth worshiping evil drow. It is partly for the sake of convience, and because FR is doing somthing a bit unique with their campain setting, which seems to be the change of the drow race as a whole. They like drow and want to make them an interesting part of their story. Eilistraee is just one of the factors that help with the evolotion of the race, along with Masked God (can't spell his name) and Lolth's silence. It all part of a "Story arch" per say to increase their effect on the world. Eilistraee is not a bad goddness, becasue their have been some though put into her creation. She is VERY sexist, rather uncaring about now elves, arrogent, and above all weak. Her half brother, the masked god is far more powerful and becuase of him their are more evil drow on the surface than good

That being said, when people use her as an exuse to make good drow then we have a problem. FR must have considered that, but decieded to go with it. Playing a good drow is fine if done well. And i agree, when you have "Detect Player Character" situations the nwe have a problem. However, i would like to point out, while Drizzt clones are the biggest problem, but Anti Drizzt are almost as bad. Anyways, note on Drizzt clones
Eilistaee's drow and not loners fighting agianst the entire race. They want to redeem the race, and do it together. They are more of a force of good drow then indivueals.
From,
EE
P.S. Dispite the fact the concept is good, many Drizzt clones can be found working for Eilisteaee.

Pvednes
2007-02-19, 11:30 PM
Who said she isolated? She was born into a family along that lived in a surface comunity that worships Eilistraee. She has never set foot in the underdark and has only heard stories of what has happened down there. Eilistraee is a lesser deity with from several thousands worshipers to tens of thousands.

Then you should probably just play an elf, if you don't want to bathe in the blood of the innocent.

Face it: There's nothing there that's Drow.

Pvednes
2007-02-19, 11:39 PM
IMO, a large part of the annoyance factor in the "good drow" is the business about struggling against racial stereotypes, with the implication that surfacers are being unreasonable in judging 100% of drow based on the fact that 99% of drow are murderous psychopaths and there's no easy way to tell which ones are the non-murderous 1%.

*snip*.

Yes! Yes! That's it exactly!

Suzaku
2007-02-19, 11:51 PM
Ok fine that means I shouldn't play a dwarf who doesn't enjoy ale and lived exclusively on the surface and is chaotic. I also can't play a non flamboyant male elf who's lawful evil. I can't play a well manner half-orc who's very knowledgeable, or how about a half ling that's not a rogue or thievery like class?

Pvednes
2007-02-19, 11:59 PM
Hardly.

It means you shouldn't play a vampire cleric of Pelor, or a lamia protector of the weak and innocent, or an illithid paladin that doesn't like offal.

Suzaku
2007-02-20, 12:05 AM
Then what race would I play suffering from stigma of her/his race and trying to change the perception of her race when everyone likely to attack her/him on site?

Pvednes
2007-02-20, 12:08 AM
Oh, that one's easy!

Drizzt. :smallfurious:

Zincorium
2007-02-20, 12:26 AM
Then what race would I play suffering from stigma of her/his race and trying to change the perception of her race when everyone likely to attack her/him on site?

Y'know, I think staying away from everything in that sentence would probably go a long ways towards preventing people from rolling their eyes. It may have been original once, but let's face it, pretty much everyone has had that idea at some point. Trying to be original with a good drow, or good succubus, or anything like that is like trying to make a fashion statement at a funeral by wearing a black suit.

"Suffering from the stigma of *insert external force here*" is a definitive trait of being emo or angsty. Because it's not your fault, it's someone else's, and it's unfair of them, right? It smacks of wanting sympathy and of martyrdom. If people react to your choice of character hook as though you are trying to be a drama queen, that's the reason, and you have as much chance of changing their perceptions by doing it well as a drow has walking up to a bunch of dwarves and trying to become their friends.

Something people should really learn from Drizzt's story is that he's spent decades building enough of a reputation to where people might not try and kill him, and he's had to go through a lot to get to that point. Expecting even grudging acceptance right off the bat is unlikely in FR, and almost impossible elsewhere. None of the group he's in trusted him farther than they could throw him until he gave them some time to get used to him and saved their lives. Wulfgar and Bruenor greeted him with outright and blatant hostility when they first met, and either confrontation could have ended with more blood on his scimitars if he hadn't been fairly lucky.

Wehrkind
2007-02-20, 12:37 AM
I was going to defend my argument for Drizzit's borderline MS syndrome, but then I realized it would be sort of pointless. That fact hit home when you attempted to foil "magical pet" with "he's a ranger, they have animal companions" which misses the point so completely... -sigh- Rangers have animal companions, not magical onyx statues of amazing animated astral animals (always avoid alliteration). If, however you do not already understand that Drizzit is Ranger++ in everyway, then, well, what's the point?
I am not saying I don't like Drizzit, just that he is dangerously close to MS.

I think that Bond is actually fairly far from MS, in most movies at least, but the abilities he has are always present in vast quantities in MS characters. I mean, you look at say Sean Connery's Bond. His skills and feats are roughly Seduce(20), Improved Unarmed Combat, Bluff (20), Profession(Witty Banter) (20), Knowledge(World Affairs), Spot(20). He isn't the strongest, he doesn't know jack about mechanical or electronic things (hence he always breaks them), and as was pointed out earlier, he really is pretty far from morally ideal. He is lovable because he is clever, fights hillarious villains (Dr. No, the whitest "asian" evar), and generally has neat gadgets. Really, when you get right down to it, his skill set is pretty much what you would expect from a high level agent. He also usually gets his butt kicked once a movie, and typically got in trouble at least once due to his flippant, devil-may-care attitude.

To be a Mary Sue, you really have to be all powerful, past the point of people who should be better than you at their specialties for no good reason, be different in some strange and unnecessary way, and have no moral failings or even questions, simply knowing what is right at all times, as well as solving the problems of every character for them because you are so amazing. Bond may be Captain Mating Dance, but otherwise he comes up short on all counts.
Now, if he had blue hair, a pet fairy dragon, spoke every language and could reprogram NORAD, then we might have something.

Wehrkind
2007-02-20, 12:42 AM
Then what race would I play suffering from stigma of her/his race and trying to change the perception of her race when everyone likely to attack her/him on site?

Why on earth would you want to change surface dweller's perception of drow? Seems to me they have it spot on.
Drizzit always wanted people to accept him for who he was; he never seemed to mind considering all other drow plenty evil.

If you want to play a race that really isn't that bad, but people are scared of, play a saurial. Your DM can play up all sorts of "it's a dragon/man/lizard thing! KILL IT!" prejudice all you want, without that niggling "Well, the prejudice is 100% accurate" issue. Still, the above posters have it right where martyring yourself as a backstory is sort of lame.

Now, doing it in game, that can be great fun.

Arlanthe
2007-02-20, 05:54 AM
IMO, a large part of the annoyance factor in the "good drow" is the business about struggling against racial stereotypes, with the implication that surfacers are being unreasonable in judging 100% of drow based on the fact that 99% of drow are murderous psychopaths and there's no easy way to tell which ones are the non-murderous 1%.

I think it could be a lot of fun to play a good drow who trades on the racial stereotype instead of heroically struggling against it.


I like that latter role-playing idea. Dead on. I've pretty much seen two kinds of Drow as PCs. The standard issue "I'm a good Drow! Don't hate me! I brought flowers!", and the generic, "I'm evil, but we have common goals so I won't kill you" Drow.

Why not a neutral "shady" Drow, that maxes his intimidate and uses his or her racial prejudice to good effect? Why not a neutral Drow that abandons the evil ways of his cousins, but doesn't give a damn about throwing off stereotypes, and goes to the surface to be very selfish and grab a fistful of gold and retire? Why not a neutral evil or chaotic neutral row that "plays nice" (i.e. doesn't kill everyone), but goes to the surface to prey off of people, lie, cheat, and steal? Maybe that guy capitalizes on "good Drow sympathisers" and swindles them out of money, and takes advantage of them.

All of those are much less (or never used) Drow concepts. Why roll another "Drow who leaves his evil kin behind to go to the surface and be peaceful and good", when you can roll "Drow who leaves his evil kin behind to go to the surface and be peaceful and evil".

Thomas
2007-02-20, 06:46 AM
I was going to defend my argument for Drizzit's borderline MS syndrome, but then I realized it would be sort of pointless. That fact hit home when you attempted to foil "magical pet" with "he's a ranger, they have animal companions" which misses the point so completely... -sigh- Rangers have animal companions, not magical onyx statues of amazing animated astral animals (always avoid alliteration). If, however you do not already understand that Drizzit is Ranger++ in everyway, then, well, what's the point?

Considering Drizzt was an AD&D ranger, and AD&D rangers didn't get an animal companion (they got companions - not necessarily animals - at the same levels where fighters got a unit of soldiers and so on)...


Maybe that guy capitalizes on "good Drow sympathisers" and swindles them out of money, and takes advantage of them.

Sounds like an NPC from the Silver Marches book; a drow spy who rides on Drizzt's reputation in the Silver Marches, pretending to be a good drow who has fled from the Underdark and so on...


Edit:
Personally, one of my favorite Eilistraeen/good drow concepts is the Secret Moondancer - an Eilistraeen drow who lives in Underdark drow society, supporting and guiding anyone who begins to question the system, eventually bringing them to Eilistraee (and possibly helping them flee to the surface).

PirateMonk
2007-02-20, 08:37 AM
Think what his resume must be like...

Thomas
2007-02-20, 08:53 AM
"Drow who leaves his evil kin behind to go to the surface and be peaceful and evil"

Sounds like another established Faerūnian drow community - the Elven Court drow, who worship Vhaeraun (I don't actually know if they have any females among them - Vhaeraun is the god of rebellious males). Although "peaceful" is ... relative. They obviously can't afford to push the Dales and the returning elves so hard they decide to wipe out House Jaelre and associates, but raiding parties are one of the few exports drow have ever had to the surface... :smallamused:

Gamebird
2007-02-20, 10:59 AM
he... fights hillarious villains (Dr. No, the whitest "asian" evar)

He was supposed to be Asian? Dude. Man. Seriously, I just thought he was some white guy with a funny name! I didn't realize he was an Asian version of Hollywood's stupid insistence on casting white folks or Mexicans as Native Americans. Though to be fair, a lot of people of Mexican-hispanic origin have a strong Native American ancestry (though they look nothing like Souix or Iroquois... Navaho maybe).

Anyway... so he was supposed to be Asian? Weird. That's like the movie Toys, where Will Smith (black) played the biological son of two white folks (at least, I think we see a picture of his mother). The movie was just weird enough that no one really looked twice at it. After all, you find out towards the end that the main character's sister is an android and everyone treats that as perfectly normal as well.

Talya
2007-02-20, 01:04 PM
Why on earth would you want to change surface dweller's perception of drow?


Drizzt actually says the same. He doesn't want to discourage the surfacer view of Drow--it keeps them alive. Yes, there are occasional good drow. Eilistraeens are not common enough though...you're far more likely to encounter a Lolth-worshipping raiding party from the underdark, or even a surface dwelling Vhaerun-worshipping one (almost as rare as Eilistraeens, but they often live on the surface), who are just as dangerous as Lolth-worshippers, than an Eilistraeen. Not to mention, most Eilistraeens are actually surface elves who paint their skin black for rituals. Only a few are actually drow.

No "good" drow would want the surface perception of their race to change (Edit: at least not until a huge percentage of the race itself changes)...fear keeps those surfacers safer from their much more numerous evil cousins.

Saph
2007-02-20, 01:45 PM
Y'know, I think staying away from everything in that sentence would probably go a long ways towards preventing people from rolling their eyes. It may have been original once, but let's face it, pretty much everyone has had that idea at some point. Trying to be original with a good drow, or good succubus, or anything like that is like trying to make a fashion statement at a funeral by wearing a black suit.

"Suffering from the stigma of *insert external force here*" is a definitive trait of being emo or angsty. Because it's not your fault, it's someone else's, and it's unfair of them, right? It smacks of wanting sympathy and of martyrdom. If people react to your choice of character hook as though you are trying to be a drama queen, that's the reason, and you have as much chance of changing their perceptions by doing it well as a drow has walking up to a bunch of dwarves and trying to become their friends.

Yes! That's it exactly. "I'm a completely blameless good person who gets persecuted due to something that's not my fault!" is a really, really irritating trait in a character. It's like putting a flashing neon sign above your head saying "You should feel sorry for me".


Something people should really learn from Drizzt's story is that he's spent decades building enough of a reputation to where people might not try and kill him, and he's had to go through a lot to get to that point.

Exactly. And one of the reasons the original Drizzt was quite a likeable character was that he DIDN'T try and guilt-trip people about how unfair they were being by having a bad opinion of drow. He doesn't mind people disliking drow, because he knows from personal experience that the popular prejudice against drow is completely justified.

- Saph

PirateMonk
2007-02-20, 01:56 PM
Here's a villainous plot:

1) Make every Evil creature (including those with the evil subtype and yourself) Good. Then have them go join human society.

2) Pick one:

A) Make it so the people don't trust the newcomers, and eventually escalate matters to a civil war between the Good.

B) Make it so the newcomers are welcomed with open arms. Then watch gleefully as the adventuring market crashes due to lack of foes, followed by the collapse of the entire economy.

EvilElitest
2007-02-20, 03:00 PM
Y'know, I think staying away from everything in that sentence would probably go a long ways towards preventing people from rolling their eyes. It may have been original once, but let's face it, pretty much everyone has had that idea at some point. Trying to be original with a good drow, or good succubus, or anything like that is like trying to make a fashion statement at a funeral by wearing a black suit.

"Suffering from the stigma of *insert external force here*" is a definitive trait of being emo or angsty. Because it's not your fault, it's someone else's, and it's unfair of them, right? It smacks of wanting sympathy and of martyrdom. If people react to your choice of character hook as though you are trying to be a drama queen, that's the reason, and you have as much chance of changing their perceptions by doing it well as a drow has walking up to a bunch of dwarves and trying to become their friends.

Something people should really learn from Drizzt's story is that he's spent decades building enough of a reputation to where people might not try and kill him, and he's had to go through a lot to get to that point. Expecting even grudging acceptance right off the bat is unlikely in FR, and almost impossible elsewhere. None of the group he's in trusted him farther than they could throw him until he gave them some time to get used to him and saved their lives. Wulfgar and Bruenor greeted him with outright and blatant hostility when they first met, and either confrontation could have ended with more blood on his scimitars if he hadn't been fairly lucky.

1, i think she was being sarcastic. Can't say though
2. All of the arguments on this thread seem to be lectures about how bad Drizzt clones are. But everyone knows that. I have not noticed anyone protecting Drizzt clones, the character in question is simply good drow (note, she claimed not to have read Drizzt books). And so what are people trying to acomplish?
1. The Drizzt concept is fine, a good orginal idea with a well devolped character
2. We all hate Drizzt clones. Yes, i pretty sure everyone here agrees with that.
3. Drizzt clones are unogrinal and ruin the world with "Good Drow" outnumbering bad drow. Yeah that is pretty much true with Drizzt clones
Here we start to disagree
4. Drizzt clones are Emo and melodramtic. Yes they are. Dispite what htey say, the hatred of drow is perfeclly correct as 99% are evil bastards. The "I am simple misunderstood" concept is what make emo people like being Drizzt clones
5. All good drow are Drizzt clones or are just bad character
I personally think that is wrong, as that is no way to judge a character. It releys on the way it is played not the concept. Good drow is fine, that is why Eilistrea is a godness (and yes she has more drow worshipers than non drow by the way). However as drow have "unusally NE" as their aligment in MM, they are free to chose their own path. We know that of all the pure breed drow in the world (their are some subraces i can't speak for) in FR 99% are evil, while 95% worship Lolth. About 5% of drow are on the surface, 2% Vhaerun, 1% Eiilistrea, 1% Lolth, 1% other. Their are plenty of good drow. But good drow in themselves are not a bad idea if they are orginal, as the character in question is.
6. Playing drow is bad
Wrong, their are many different ways to play as a drow, you just have to be ready to roleplay. A good DM will not let you off becuase your a drow and you have to convience the NPC that you are good. However, their are many types of ways to play drow, from Netrual, evil, selfserving, and good. Many concept were mentioned on this form.
7. Drow ruin a group
ONly if the DM allows them to. View them as anyother unique creature, except empathize upon Drow's evil nature
From,
EE

Talya
2007-02-20, 04:01 PM
Wow...in all this talk about Eilistraee, I got looking around, and found out something I hadn't read yet!

In a very recent Lisa Smedman novel, Vhaeraun snuck into Eilistraee's domain and tried to assassinate her. Vhaeraun no longer exists, and Eilistraee is now the Goddess of Song, Beauty, Dance, Swordwork, Hunting, Moonlight....and thievery, drow males, surface drow, having absorbed all of Vhaeraun's clergy.

Thomas
2007-02-20, 04:10 PM
Crikey. I wonder when this will make it into sourcebooks?

I think I'll definitely use that - it would throw a wonderful twist into the conflict between the Vhaerunite drow who have come to the surface in the Elven Court and the elves returning from Evermeet to repopulate the area.

Jabberwocky
2007-02-20, 04:48 PM
Well, I have just written a post in another thread, which could contribute here, too: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2060180&postcount=128

Davurnium
2007-02-20, 05:10 PM
Wow...in all this talk about Eilistraee, I got looking around, and found out something I hadn't read yet!

In a very recent Lisa Smedman novel, Vhaeraun snuck into Eilistraee's domain and tried to assassinate her. Vhaeraun no longer exists, and Eilistraee is now the Goddess of Song, Beauty, Dance, Swordwork, Hunting, Moonlight....and thievery, drow males, surface drow, having absorbed all of Vhaeraun's clergy.

I'm sorry... this seems, rather odd. Could you kindly provide me with a link to your source? I'd like to read this from the horse's mouth. :smallsmile:

Talya
2007-02-20, 05:19 PM
I'm sorry... this seems, rather odd. Could you kindly provide me with a link to your source? I'd like to read this from the horse's mouth. :smallsmile:

Nothing "authoritative," since the book just came out this month (I'd have to print the text of the actual Sacrifice of the Widow book that I haven't read yet, which would also be a copyright violation), but it looks pretty much a done deal. Of course, it's only book one of three, and we all know that drow gods, good or evil, are all about schemes upon plans within plots...

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11411837
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vhaeraun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilistraee

Davurnium
2007-02-20, 05:39 PM
Well will you look at that! The Candlekeep forums seem to agree with this. Pretty darn big change (unless Vhaeraun is actually allying temporarially with Eilistraee, which I suspect). Thanks for mentioning this change!

Zincorium
2007-02-20, 05:41 PM
1, i think she was being sarcastic. Can't say though
*Lots of stuff about Drizzt clones which I didn't talk about so have no reason to respond to*
6. Playing drow is bad
Wrong, their are many different ways to play as a drow, you just have to be ready to roleplay. A good DM will not let you off becuase your a drow and you have to convience the NPC that you are good. However, their are many types of ways to play drow, from Netrual, evil, selfserving, and good. Many concept were mentioned on this form.
7. Drow ruin a group
ONly if the DM allows them to. View them as anyother unique creature, except empathize upon Drow's evil nature
From,
EE

Even if she was being sarcastic, I stand by my statement. Drow are one of the most reviled, feared, and troublesome races to exist in a campaign world. They are for the most part not suitable to being player characters, as they exist in a very insular, brutal society where the typical adventuring urges of wanderlust and curiosity would lead to death well before they were capable of making the trip to the surface. That ellistrae is around at all bugs me. Where are the dieties of orcs who decide to reject Gruumsh, the kobolds that decide not to follow Kurtulmak? Drow got a special exception that really doesn't make too much sense.

Talya
2007-02-20, 05:55 PM
That ellistrae is around at all bugs me. Where are the dieties of orcs who decide to reject Gruumsh, the kobolds that decide not to follow Kurtulmak? Drow got a special exception that really doesn't make too much sense.

The history is different. Aurashnee was a good member of the Seldarine. Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were her children by Corellon Larethian. When the Dark Seldarine rebelled against the Seldarine and were exiled, Eilistraee fought on the side of her father, but she voluntarily went into exile with her kin to try to redeem her people on prime.


You'd be hard pressed to find the good origin behind Gruumsh that Lolth has.

Gamebird
2007-02-20, 06:04 PM
Blah, blah, blah, stupid elven history that makes no difference. It's setting specific. But good-aligned, tragically-misunderstood drow are not.

Zincorium has a good point, though I've seen plenty of good succubi, 2nd edition half orc paladins (now in 3.X, they'd be full orc, and probably a tiefling, half black dragon orc paladin), and so on. You can hardly talk about illithids or beholders without someone mentioning how "cool" it would be to have a loner Good aligned one run into the PCs and overturn their ideas of the race.

For once I'd like to see a DM run one of these "good bad people" and then stab the stupid PCs in the back for trusting them. It'd be amusing, in a sick sort of way.

But it is odd that good/bad drow got their own god, but whenever there's a fiendish tauric troll paladin, he follows a human god like Pelor. Of course the reason is because no other evil race has a good counterpart, like the drow do. Odd though - the drow get their own good-counterpart god and all the other races are stuck mooching off the human gods.

Talya
2007-02-20, 06:07 PM
"Tragically misunderstood?" That keeps coming up...that isn't a major theme of Drizzt, nor of any Eilistraeen covens...

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-20, 06:09 PM
Pretty much it's the age-old fantasy bias, "pretty is always good, unless it's evil, in which case it's probably misunderstood and certainly redeemable." ¬¬

Talya
2007-02-20, 06:09 PM
BTW, my main issue with Drizzt is that he automatically makes anyone (of any race, any allignment) who plays a Dervish PrC look like a Drizzt clone. *grumble grumble*

Talya
2007-02-20, 06:10 PM
Pretty much it's the age-old fantasy bias, "pretty is always good, unless it's evil, in which case it's probably misunderstood and certainly redeemable." ¬¬


Actually, in D&D...everything evil that's intelligent is redeemable, from goblin to balor, just like everything good is corruptable. That's the major and most important theme of good vs. evil. Any idiot can kill someone...the truly good act is to redeem them, the truly vile act is to corrupt them.

Thomas
2007-02-20, 06:11 PM
The history is different. Aurashnee was a good member of the Seldarine. Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were her children by Corellon Larethian. When the Dark Seldarine rebelled against the Seldarine and were exiled, Eilistraee fought on the side of her father, but she voluntarily went into exile with her kin to try to redeem her people on prime.

Note, also, that this happened 10,000 - 15,000 years before the Ilythiiri dark elves were cursed by the Seldarine (after the other elves' high mages and hierophants prayed some 100 years non-stop for them to smite the Ilythiiri), driven underground, and became drow. Lolth and the Dark Seldarine have existed for millenia before there even were drow. (Lolth had that whole confused, re-written demon queen stint, too.) The Ilythiiri worshipped Ghaunadar before Lolth.


Blah, blah, blah, stupid elven history that makes no difference. It's setting specific. But good-aligned, tragically-misunderstood drow are not.

Nope, but why would a case have to be made, all at once, for good drow in all settings? A case for good drow in one of the settings where they drow (good and evil both) are most prominent is quite sufficient, especially when you consider that I and others are probably only experts on Faerūn. (I only know that Eberron drow are jungle-dwelling savages in the land of giants - who apparently have nothing like the fascist, matriarchal, underground culture of Faerūn and Greyhawk drow... you know, it sounds like good drow would be far less unusual in Eberron than in Faerūn. That just leaves the case for Greyhawk, which I'll leave to whatever grognard actually owns the age-old sourcebooks for that world. :smallbiggrin: )

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-20, 06:17 PM
Actually, in D&D...everything evil that's intelligent is redeemable, from goblin to balor, just like everything good is corruptable. That's the major and most important theme of good vs. evil. Any idiot can kill someone...the truly good act is to redeem them, the truly vile act is to corrupt them.

Redeemable for what, anyway? What makes the writhing, food-sucking maggots humans spend so much energy nourishing worth protecting, exactly? Why are odious gods like Pelor or Heironeus so good for protecting a society that worships them? Why is Father Gruumsh so reviled for doing the same? We only want what the pinkskins stole; if they are too weak to keep it, then by what right can they claim it!?

...Iiiii mean. A redeemed Fiend is old and hoary a D&D cliche as anything else. But why do you think the Succubus is the most commonly "redeemed" example, up to the point of a Succubus Paladin being a featured NPC on the Wizards site?

Gamebird
2007-02-20, 06:19 PM
I'm not complaining about Drizzt. I haven't read the books, nor do I care to.

I'm complaining about nitwits with poor character development and angsty "you should feel sorry for me" concepts who are annoying, rather than interesting and engaging.

So I guess I'm complaining about bad role playing.

That and the "cool" factor of going against convention. I'm just a traditionalist, I suppose.

Tangent:
I have four very nice red roses on my desk. A woman at work stopped by today, smelled them and asked me about them. I said they were from my husband for Valentine's Day. She laughed and said, "My boyfriend got me flowers once. I ask him to get me more and he says, 'I've already done that!' and he won't do it again. Like there's some kind of problem with doing something nice more than once! I wish he would."

We laughed and I told her that I was quite the traditionalist - flowers and chocolate was good enough for me. Though dinner and a movie are nice too. By the way, I quite liked Ghost Rider, especially the delicious, absolutely delicious, nearly-better-than-dark-chocolate scene of Nick's chest and abs. God, someone give me a napkin for this drool!

Okay, I'm going home now.

Gamebird
2007-02-20, 06:21 PM
But why do you think the Succubus is the most commonly "redeemed" example, up to the point of a Succubus Paladin being a featured NPC on the Wizards site?

Because she has boobies and it makes for a good picture to attract horny fanboys.

Okay, I'm really going home now.

Scorpina
2007-02-20, 06:22 PM
But why do you think the Succubus is the most commonly "redeemed" example, up to the point of a Succubus Paladin being a featured NPC on the Wizards site?

'Cause they're pretty. Everyone knows Evil is ugly.

Rabiesbunny
2007-02-20, 06:29 PM
Cause they're pretty. Everyone knows Evil is ugly.

Pshaw! Then explain how men in Zhentil Keep are so hot!

They're only ugly if they're CE or NE. LE men are the most attractive beings. I think this law applies only to Faerun though...

ArmorArmadillo
2007-02-20, 08:02 PM
One of the problems with the "good bad guy" is that it's too obvious a twist. It reflects the existing system too directly, without really innovating on it.

One of my characters (the one on my avatar) is a Tiefling, who comes from a city that is about 20% of like kin (which is very, very, many compared to the norm) In designing the city, I had to have a city in which humans and Tieflings could coexist, but just making them "good Tieflings who reject their infernal heritage" felt unoriginal and poorly textured.
My solution was to make them evil through neutral, but sort of benign in the way they handle things.
For example, influential Tieflings control most of the criminal syndicates that dominate the city, but they don't drive the people into poverty or destitution, but rather guide the economy with a generally tough disposition (which occassionally involves hanging people upside-down and driving a dagger into their ribs.)
They're evil, it's in their blood. Denying it just makes denies what made their species unique in the first place.
The key in these characters is to focus on a different aspect of their internal evil and dark background in a way that allows coexistence.

EvilElitest
2007-02-20, 09:24 PM
Ok bear in mind, the reason drow get their own good drow because unlike orcs or kobolds, they were once a good race. Drow are fallen elves. The reson why redeeming the evil is used a lot in D&D is because it is a christian (and other faiths but Christain pirmaraly) idea of good. I'm not saying that D&D books promate any religion over another, but pointing out that redeeming the fallen has been a central aspect on good for 2,000 years.
The reason why people play the "Good bad guy" is because they have the option to be good and it would be interesting to rolplay from a different perspective. That is the one clone reason. Powergammers and clones have a different idea, playing overpowered monsters or just wanting to be "Cool" or whatever it is that makes Drizzt clones happy.
That being said, certain races i am opposed to playing as good. Demons and Devils for one. The good sucubus is immpossible, because unlike drow demons are the living embodyments of chaos and evil, they can't be redeemed and stay demons (they would change into somthing different, like angels). You can't have a good balor beceause they exist for the sole purpose of being chatic and evil (Fiendish codex I). You also can't redeem something like a tainted rever, because while it can be intellegent, it is irideemable mad. I personally don't allow my players to play any race whose aligment is restricted.
One example of a good bad guy race are the forsaken and the blood elves from warcraft. I don't want to explan though, can sombody else do it, i have to leave.
From,
EE

Woot Spitum
2007-02-20, 09:55 PM
An interesting point has been brought up, the evil creatures and races that seem so popular are the attractive looking ones. No one sems to be clamoring to play good-aligned duergar, githyanki, or bearded devils. It's the drow, succubi, and erinnys that keep popping up.

Pvednes
2007-02-20, 09:59 PM
The Drow make orcs and kobolds look cute and cuddly. They're far, far more vicious. You can't get more black-hat than Drow.

Talyn
2007-02-20, 10:22 PM
Which is also why the "redeemed Drow" is more angsty and unique than a good orc or kobold. Heck, there are whole TRIBES of good (or, at least, non-evil) orcs and kobolds.

Suzaku
2007-02-20, 10:33 PM
Which is also why the "redeemed Drow" is more angsty and unique than a good orc or kobold. Heck, there are whole TRIBES of good (or, at least, non-evil) orcs and kobolds.

There also whole tribes of good or neutral drows like I said my character my character comes from a community of surface drows who worships Eilistraee. She also has never set foot in the underdark and I believe the local area where the tribe lives or any other tribes of whom worship Eilistraee would acknowledge a non evil drow.

Wehrkind
2007-02-20, 11:02 PM
Gamebird: Yea, I might double check, but I am 99% certain the movie described Dr. No as being Chinese whose parents moved to Germany. As my wife put it "So what, being cold for 20 years makes you white?"
Not quite so silly as John Wayne being Ghengis Khan, but still amusing.
Side note: everytime I see a James Bond movie, I think of the skit from Saturday Night Live of Bond going to the Dr, who has bad news.
Dr: Well James, we ran some tests, and it seems you have an STD. 287 of them to be exact.
Bond: Really?
Dr: Oh yes, I'm afraid. 10 were completely new to science, and 8 were previously only known in sharks.

That scene constantly runs through my head when watching the movies.

I think an interesting drow game would be set in a major drow city, with the pc's being part of an underground movement trying to off majors house matrons and the like. The ever present danger and keeping up of appearances of 'good' drow in context would lead to lots of great roleplay, political and otherwise.

Edit: Dr. No was half Chinese and half German. So looking a little ruddy and such perhaps is acceptable.

Fhaolan
2007-02-21, 12:35 AM
I have a question for Suzaku, and I'm genuinely curious about this. Given that this is fairly late in the thread I understand if you're feeling a bit... attacked. I just want to be clear that this is just me being curious, and I'm not in any way judging your character concept.

You seem to be fairly clear on this being a Good Drow, from a 'Good' sub-set of Drow culture. The personality reads like a standard bubbly happy-go-lucky teenie-bopper of an elf maiden that is cute for a short time when played by a young lady (and incredibly disturbing when played by a middle-aged man, don't ask, it's not worth it.), but makes my teeth itch after prolonged exposure.

So.... why a Drow in the first place? What makes the character's race important to the character concept?

The reason why I ask, is because I've been playing D&D long enough to be wary about people wanting to play certain non-standard races. Not because there is anything wrong with playing a non-standard race, but because they use that non-standard race as an excuse for being disruptive to the game. Drow, Vampires, Half-something-or-other, in many cases it's a 'Look at me! I need more attention than the other players! I'm *special*!' They actually go out of their way so the character attracts prejudice, because it puts them in the spotlight. And they get upset when that spotlight wanders from them to other players. 'Why is the NPC talking with *him?* There's a Drow in front of him! Why isn't he prejudicing at me?' (Yes, I had a player say that to me, weird made-up word and all.)

And I have also been playing D&D long enough to deal with players who play Drow, Vampires, and half-something-or-others without needing to hog the spotlight. So I know it can be done, and I don't automatically assume that you're in the 'bad' group. So, I ask the question, what makes it important that the character is a Drow, and not some other elf sub-race?

LynGrey
2007-02-21, 01:05 AM
i hate drizzt cause of the fanboy-dom... Drizzt he's decent, he's one of a million... but really he's not... When some new dork reads or hears about him they allow good drows left and right.. what this causes is a rift in my brain... that makes me to punch puppies!! THe more popularity he gains the less unique he is.. and the more the non-steryotype he his.. he's pretty much self defeating.... now he has like an huge order of good-drow now.

Wehrkind
2007-02-21, 02:00 AM
I think Fhaolin hits the nail on the head, yet again. Too many nonstandard races are picked just to be "special" and get attention. It isn't so much a question of "the only good member of a bad race" it is the "and everyone is predjudiced against me despite the fact I am a saint. Woe is me" aspect of the (typical) character that makes people... vomit? Wince? Want to knock you down and take your lunch money?

In a way, such things are the antithesis of munchkins. After enough of a player brow beating the DM into making their skin/horns/tentacled naughty bits the center of nearly every campaign, a DM might be relieved to hear "I want to be a half ogre, but can I look like a normal human and keep all the bonuses? I have this totally awesome spiked chain build in mind."

Piedmon_Sama
2007-02-21, 02:19 AM
Let's get back on that ugly/purdy thing for a sec.... how common ARE "good" Orcs and Kobolds? Are people more likely to want to play a "redeemed" Succubus, Drow Priestess, or some other statuesque pleasurebot than a cleft-jawed half-ogre or a booger-eating goblin?

Moreover, it's always seemed to me like the "pug uglies" aren't even allowed to be the MAJOR badguys but are always relegated to low-level thuggery. All the big-bad-evil guys of the Forgotten Realms (the Drow, in particular) seem to have fallen off the back of a Vogue catalogue, and what's the best guy the Orcs get? A 9th level Barbarian? LAME. Baby-eating Orcs with axes the size of your upper body are so much cooler than S&M Dom Queens as villains, it's not even funny.

Thank God for The Hunter's Blades Trilogy, honestly... Bob Salvatore really came through on that one. It took a couple decades, but the Orcs are FINALLY getting some love now that Obould's a CR 20 combat monster and the Orcs own half of Icewind Dale....

Arlanthe
2007-02-21, 03:13 AM
Drow are fallen elves. The reson why redeeming the evil is used a lot in D&D is because it is a christian (and other faiths but Christain pirmaraly) idea of good. I'm not saying that D&D books promate any religion over another, but pointing out that redeeming the fallen has been a central aspect on good for 2,000 years.

Try 3,500 years or more. You make a good point- redemption stories are fairly frequent in mythology, from the Norse to the Aztec cultures, to the Middle East and beyond. Indeed, many of the prayers found on Kassite seals, 3,500 years old, are prayers of redemption to Sumerian gods, and the stories of purification and redemption of "peoples" abound.

The Kassite texts, Code of Hammurabi, and "purification and redemption" story of the great flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh predate the advent of Judaism and Mosaic law, itself based largely on the earlier Mesopotamian stories. To really be complete, the body of Forgotten Realms work would need to include a major "sacrifice and redemption" story, such as the flood of Gilgamesh (later the Noachian flood), Jesus on the cross, the destruction of the prior suns in the "ladder of redemption" in Aztec mythology, and so forth.

(World of Warcraft seems to focus a lot on falls and redemption, if you follow that story line, have noticed.)

It's an extremely old idea that is a central theme in many cultures. And it seems to be a popular story idea. It would be neat if the FR writers made a neat sacrifice-and-redemption story for the Drow.

(P.S. The plural of Drow is Drow. You don't put an "S" on it.)

Wehrkind
2007-02-21, 04:04 AM
Are people more likely to want to play a "redeemed" Succubus, Drow Priestess, or some other statuesque pleasurebot than a cleft-jawed half-ogre or a booger-eating goblin?

Absolutely. (Bonus points for using "statuesque pleasurebot" in a sentance.) For very much the same reason they play mighty warriors and goddly mages instead of 'Ted, from accounting.' Nobody wants to play the nobody who is mostly ignored, and never really accomplishes anything. Most people feel like that in their day to day lives, so why play it?

I am not saying it is 100% the case, or that people should want to play the fat waitress with a lisp instead of the scantily clad drow priestess with mighty powers and breasts to make a chiropractor hear a cash register chime (she only wants to be accepted as a good person, though.) Quite the contrary.
It is simply an extension of the desire that makes said waitress describe herself as "volumptuous" on her Date.com account: Everyone wishes to be better than they perceive themselves to be, particularly when imagining alter egos for themselves.
It takes a much stronger interest in role playing than I think most people have to enjoy pretending to be a somewhat stout bartended whose wife left him for a barbarian in a loin cloth, even if it would be a very interesting character.

Fhaolan
2007-02-21, 09:49 AM
I think Fhaolin hits the nail on the head, yet again.

I've got to stop doing that. Those poor nails. Nobody *asked* them to be whacked.


Too many nonstandard races are picked just to be "special" and get attention. It isn't so much a question of "the only good member of a bad race" it is the "and everyone is predjudiced against me despite the fact I am a saint. Woe is me" aspect of the (typical) character that makes people... vomit? Wince? Want to knock you down and take your lunch money?

In a way, such things are the antithesis of munchkins. After enough of a player brow beating the DM into making their skin/horns/tentacled naughty bits the center of nearly every campaign, a DM might be relieved to hear "I want to be a half ogre, but can I look like a normal human and keep all the bonuses? I have this totally awesome spiked chain build in mind."

And the main reason I know this, is because I *regularly* play non-standard races, or strange twists on standard races. I'm in four different D&D games right now. In one, I have a full-blooded orc ranger who is the second or third son of an orc chieftain, and is running away from his responsibilities. My previous character in that campaign was a squirrel archer, formerly a human archer with a botched reincarnation. Online on this forum, I have a worg barbarian. Why do I play these characters? Mainly because I like the challenge of playing a race with a completely different world-view, or has significant challenges in coexisting with the 'regular' characters. The orc, it's the world-view. The squirrel and the worg have serious drawbacks that need to be overcome to work as viable D&D characters. I usually have to work harder at playing these characters so as to not draw too much attention away from the rest of the players, of course. I have no interest in being the primary character. I want to play the strange side-kick, the advisor, the 'alternate' character. That's the role for me. :smallbiggrin:

So, I can't complain about people playing non-standard races. I can, however, be curious as to *why* they want to play non-standard races, because their reasons are very likely different from mine.

Suzaku
2007-02-21, 10:43 AM
I have a question for Suzaku, and I'm genuinely curious about this. Given that this is fairly late in the thread I understand if you're feeling a bit... attacked. I just want to be clear that this is just me being curious, and I'm not in any way judging your character concept.

You seem to be fairly clear on this being a Good Drow, from a 'Good' sub-set of Drow culture. The personality reads like a standard bubbly happy-go-lucky teenie-bopper of an elf maiden that is cute for a short time when played by a young lady (and incredibly disturbing when played by a middle-aged man, don't ask, it's not worth it.), but makes my teeth itch after prolonged exposure.

So.... why a Drow in the first place? What makes the character's race important to the character concept?

The reason why I ask, is because I've been playing D&D long enough to be wary about people wanting to play certain non-standard races. Not because there is anything wrong with playing a non-standard race, but because they use that non-standard race as an excuse for being disruptive to the game. Drow, Vampires, Half-something-or-other, in many cases it's a 'Look at me! I need more attention than the other players! I'm *special*!' They actually go out of their way so the character attracts prejudice, because it puts them in the spotlight. And they get upset when that spotlight wanders from them to other players. 'Why is the NPC talking with *him?* There's a Drow in front of him! Why isn't he prejudicing at me?' (Yes, I had a player say that to me, weird made-up word and all.)

And I have also been playing D&D long enough to deal with players who play Drow, Vampires, and half-something-or-others without needing to hog the spotlight. So I know it can be done, and I don't automatically assume that you're in the 'bad' group. So, I ask the question, what makes it important that the character is a Drow, and not some other elf sub-race?

I plan on having my character built up a reputation using a hat of disguise or mundane disguises and then slowly reveal I'm a drow. Using any other race makes blending in much more difficult. As a kobold and orc it's more then minor details you have to change about yourself to blend in. There is also the fact I don't have to come to be a social outcast from the community I'm from. I don't think there any deities for goblinoids, orcs kobolds that are good align that explains good-neutral aspect of races.

Illiterate Scribe
2007-02-21, 10:43 AM
An interesting point has been brought up, the evil creatures and races that seem so popular are the attractive looking ones. No one sems to be clamoring to play good-aligned duergar, githyanki, or bearded devils. It's the drow, succubi, and erinnys that keep popping up.

You would be forgetting that famous CG character who pops up quite often on the WotC boards, Drizz't Do'uergar.

Suzaku
2007-02-21, 10:48 AM
An interesting point has been brought up, the evil creatures and races that seem so popular are the attractive looking ones. No one sems to be clamoring to play good-aligned duergar, githyanki, or bearded devils. It's the drow, succubi, and erinnys that keep popping up.

Umm I don't believe goblins and kobolds are attractive. However if that's your sort of thing...

Arlanthe
2007-02-21, 10:56 AM
So, I can't complain about people playing non-standard races. I can, however, be curious as to *why* they want to play non-standard races, because their reasons are very likely different from mine.

I honestly feel (and my experince seems to confirm) that people who play bizzaro characters, or very non-standard races, or triple-race quadruple-class mutants and what have you, aren't creative enough to take a generic race and class and make it interesting and unique.

The best role players are the ones who can make a fantastic personality out of any basic human fighter, dwarf cleric, elven mage, or other generic combination, and write a great character and balanced story with all other players.

The worst role-players tend to create freakshows and mutts that exibit all kinds of prongs and gadgets that the player tends to use as a role-playing crutches, since they can't think of an original idea with standard classes they could actually execute with any level of skill. Sure it is "unique", but a crutch nonetheless.

I particularly dislike the "sponge" character (Mary Sue or freakshow) that sucks up all of the social interactions. Every darn social encoutner is about that guy. Every encounter or trip to town is "Hey... you're a giant insect creature... whoa". "I'm sorry, insects aren't allowed in this inn." "As you pass by, everyone starts at the insect humanoid in the group". "Interesting, I have never talked to an insect before..", "Okay, the giant insect creature eats in a disgusting manner". "Look at meeeee, ...ooo I am a big bug!", "Woe is me, you don't know what it's like being a bug in human civilization!".

Somehow I doubt the insect man's role playing story involves the tense relationship with his former teacher's daughter, or outwitting the rival trade house head.

Not, I am sure, that this applies to you. A squirrel? Worg? That's gone out one side of extreme and come back the other way! The orc is somewhat normal, though, and it sounds like he has an interesting story. I'm still tying to imagine how a squirrel shoots a bow.

kamikasei
2007-02-21, 10:57 AM
I plan on having my character built up a reputation using a hat of disguise or mundane disguises and then slowly reveal I'm a drow. Using any other race makes blending in much more difficult. As a kobold and orc it's more then minor details you have to change about yourself to blend in. There is also the fact I don't have to come to be a social outcast from the community I'm from. I don't think there any deities for goblinoids, orcs kobolds that are good align that explains good-neutral aspect of races.

I think the question was not so much why not play a different evil race as why play an evil race at all? Why not play a normal elf? What does being an Eilistraeen Drow add to your character that being a Sune- or Sharess-worshipping Elf doesn't?


Umm I don't believe goblins and kobolds are attractive. However if that's your sort of thing...

Yes... that is the point. People don't play goblins or kobolds because they are not attractive.