Is there a better melee rogue build than this...?

[Aumeydio]

I've been trying to think of a better melee rogue build and this is the best I could come up with. The idea here is, keep BAB and number of attacks as high as possible.

Human (perhaps Dark template) Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16

Feats:
B Able Learner
B Weapon Finesse
1st Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd Dark Stalker
6th Daring Outlaw
9th Staggering Strike
12th Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15th Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
18th

Max out Hide/Move Silently/Tumble
Get UMD to 20

Highlights

BAB 19
Str and Int to damage
10d6 Sneak Attack
6 attacks on a Full Attack
HiPS (Dark template)
+4 with Flanks
Spells via UMD (Wands)

I guess now I need to fill in the last feat slot

[Averis Vol]

swashbuckler doesn't give sneak attack, so you would have 2d6. If you take daring outlaw though, that set up is okay.

Also, you're missing craven.

[Aumeydio]

Ugh, Craven... It's good, but it's too thematic for this particular character.

[Firechanter]

And you can't take ITWF before you get BAB +6. Since your Rogue levels lose 1 BAB, you can only take that at level 9. The good news is you can bump Daring Outlaw up to level 3 for uninterrupted Sneak progression.

Oh and also, you should start out with Rogue to grab those extra skill points. Then take Swashbuckler at 2nd level.

The Dark Template is iirc LA+1. Maybe Buyoff is allowed, then okay. Otherwise, skip the template and just buy an Umbral Collar at mid levels. Actually I prefer to be able to switch the "Dark" on and off.

[Aumeydio]

And you can't take ITWF before you get BAB +6. Since your Rogue levels lose 1 BAB, you can only take that at level 9. The good news is you can bump Daring Outlaw up to level 3 for uninterrupted Sneak progression.

I fixed this. Oopsy


Oh and also, you should start out with Rogue to grab those extra skill points. Then take Swashbuckler at 2nd level.

The listed classes aren't in chronological order, but yes, that is definitely what I would do.


The Dark Template is iirc LA+1. Maybe Buyoff is allowed, then okay. Otherwise, skip the template and just buy an Umbral Collar at mid levels. Actually I prefer to be able to switch the "Dark" on and off.

I'll look into that. Source? And yes, buyoff is what I would be doing.

[GutterFace]

I don't want to be that guy, but wouldn't it be easier to mix Swordsage in with a touch of rogue. tons of things are immune to sneak attack at later levels.

[Aumeydio]

I don't want to be that guy, but wouldn't it be easier to mix Swordsage in with a touch of rogue. tons of things are immune to sneak attack at later levels.

We don't use ToB or ToM. We think they are extremely OP and, frankly, out of flavor with the rest of the rule sets for 3.5. Which makes sense, as they were published at the end of the 3rd Ed. line. They feel more in line with 4th Ed

[Firechanter]

Umbral Collar is the same book as the Dark template itself. It costs 10K iirc.

As for ToB, whether they are "OP" or not depends entirely on the rest of your party setup. If the others play stuff like a Summoner Wizard and a Druidzilla, you will feel very sorry for yourself with your Outlaw before long. If your casters play as a Blaster Wizard and a Healbot Cleric, however, you'll be fine.
Always bear in mind, no splatbook is more broken than the PHB. ;)

[GutterFace]

We don't use ToB or ToM. We think they are extremely OP and, frankly, out of flavor with the rest of the rule sets for 3.5. Which makes sense, as they were published at the end of the 3rd Ed. line. They feel more in line with 4th Ed

ah ok gotcha

[Aumeydio]

Umbral Collar is the same book as the Dark template itself. It costs 10K iirc.

As for ToB, whether they are "OP" or not depends entirely on the rest of your party setup. If the others play stuff like a Summoner Wizard and a Druidzilla, you will feel very sorry for yourself with your Outlaw before long. If your casters play as a Blaster Wizard and a Healbot Cleric, however, you'll be fine.
Always bear in mind, no splatbook is more broken than the PHB. ;)

Then I may be thinking of the wrong template. Maybe it's Umbral?
And regardless of whether it's OP, the flavor is the biggest deterrent for us.

[Thurbane]

Since you've got Able Learner, maybe sink some ranks into Iaijutsu Focus (Oriental Adventures) for extra dice of damage in certain situations.

Although if ToB isn't on the table for flavour reasons, I'm guessing OA probably isn't either.

[eggynack]

I think you may be going too far down the TWF line of feats. Each successive feat just has a significantly lower return than the one prior, because the extra attack is that much less likely to hit. Maybe stop at ITWF, perhaps by just using a pair of gloves of the balanced hand (MIC, 105) combined with TWF. PTWF just seems bad though. I'd replace one of the feats with darkstalker (LoM, 179), because it looks like you're trying to hide, and if you're trying to hide then you absolutely need darkstalker.

[Aumeydio]

I think you may be going too far down the TWF line of feats. Each successive feat just has a significantly lower return than the one prior, because the extra attack is that much less likely to hit. Maybe stop at ITWF, perhaps by just using a pair of gloves of the balanced hand (MIC, 105) combined with TWF. PTWF just seems bad though.

But, but, but, 8 attacks a round? I'm kidding. That's a good idea.


I'd replace one of the feats with darkstalker (LoM, 179), because it looks like you're trying to hide, and if you're trying to hide then you absolutely need darkstalker.

This is good too.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

I always wondered if going rogue 1/sneak attack variant fighter 1/swashbuckler 3 and then get daring outlaw would worth it

[Aumeydio]

I always wondered if going rogue 1/sneak attack variant fighter 1/swashbuckler 3 and then get daring outlaw would worth it

It sounds like it, but Daring Outlaw requires 2d6 SA. So you'd have to go at least 3 levels in with the Fighter variant.

[eggynack]

It sounds like it, but Daring Outlaw requires 2d6 SA. So you'd have to go at least 3 levels in with the Fighter variant.
What do those two things have to do with each other? Rogue 1 gets you 1d6 sneak attack, and sneak attack fighter 1 gets you 1d6 sneak attack, and that comes out to 2d6 sneak attack.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Well 1 SA would be from 1 lvl rogue, the other from the fighter variant. Still you lose evasion, which you might want. And you are losing the opportunity to give trap sense for alternative class features.

[Aumeydio]

I gotcha :)

[gorfnab]

The way to pull this off is to take something like Feat Rogue (UA, 1st level mainly for the extra skill points) 1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Sneak Attack (UA) Thug (UA) Fighter 3/ Feat Rogue 13 with the Daring Outlaw feat. This nets you 11d6 sneak attack, BAB 16, and 8 bonus Fighter feats.

This use of Daring Outlaw may get a DMG thrown at your head, especially considering what your group considers "OP".

Other things to add in:

Throw in Zhentarim Fighter (CoR) ACF for free Skill Focus: Intimidate. You could also throw in two levels of Swordsage (sometime after level 6) for Assassin Stance, some maneuvers, and access to the Shadowblade feat. With this you loose out on 1 bonus Fighter feat but net an additional +1d6 sneak attack (-2 levels of Daring Outlaw Rogue for -1d6, Assassins Stance gets you 2d6 for a net gain of 1d6). As stated before the Dark Creature Template (ToM) or using a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM) combined with the Darkstalker (LoM) is quite nice. The Shadow Template (LoM) is also something to look into.

[Aumeydio]

This use of Daring Outlaw may get a DMG thrown at your head, especially considering what your group considers "OP".

Lol I'm not trying to get anything thrown at me. And you're right. We don't use UA either haha

[HunterOfJello]

First, check out our local Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233) for skill and feat suggestions.

Second, be sure to grab the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape so that you can deal half-SNA damage to creatures that are ordinarily immune to sneak attack.

Third, strongly consider a few levels in Shadow Thief of Amn since it is easy to enter, gives both SNA and feats, and is generally superior to any normal rogue levels. Whether you think it is or isn't worth it considering the fact that it doesn't have full bab is up to you.

Fourth, figure out your starting gold and make a list of those wands you're spending so many points to be able to use. (Note: you only need 19 points in UMD to never fail with a wand)

[Aumeydio]

First, check out our local Rogue Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233) for skill and feat suggestions.

Second, be sure to grab the Penetrating Strike ACF from Dungeonscape so that you can deal half-SNA damage to creatures that are ordinarily immune to sneak attack.

Ugh, I completely forgot about that. It's definitely necessary!


Third, strongly consider a few levels in Shadow Thief of Amn since it is easy to enter, gives both SNA and feats, and is generally superior to any normal rogue levels. Whether you think it is or isn't worth it considering the fact that it doesn't have full bab is up to you.

You know, the BAB is pretty important to me. I view it the way I view CL for casters. But I'll look into it and see what the trade offs are. Thanks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Better...

Spellthief 1/ Psion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm) or Ardent or Erudite 4/ Psychic Assassin (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 6/ Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 9

With Mind Cripple from Psychic Assassin you deal 2 Int damage per sneak attack, so you'll outright disable most opponents in a single full attack regardless of how much hp damage you do or how much hp they have.

Put a Wand Chamber in each of your weapons, your Spellthief level will allow you to use a Wand of Wraithstrike so all of your melee attacks are made as touch attacks.

Your psionic powers will provide buffs and utility far superior to anything you could do with skill checks or magic items.

[Azoth]

Rogue3 (penetrating strike)/Barbarian1 (pounce/whirlying frenzy)/Ranger2/Dread Commando5 (concealment in natural surrounding ACF caps at 50%)/Nightsong Enforcer9

Quasilycanthrope (if LA buyoff is avalable +1LA) Human

BAB19
Can move + attack in the same turn.
Free TWF.
5d6SA 3d6SS
Gives initiative and skill bonuses to allies.
More Skill points.
Awesome at flanking, and can get in an AoO when an ally hits an enemy.
DR10/silver

B Dodge
B Mobility
Human Improved Initiative
1st Able Learner
3rd Darkstalker
Rng2 TWF
6th combat reflexes
9th vexing flanker
12th adaptable flanker
15th Robilar's Gambit
18th Double Hit *qualified for by using gloves of the balanced hand for ITWF)

Basically, you sneak up from the outside of combat while buffing your party initiative. Once combat starts you charge in at whoever you want and unload a full attack worth of sneak attacks into his back. Pick him or a nearby buddy as the target for adaptable flanker so your other mele gains the benefits of it. All of his pissed off friends turn and start hitting you, with 10 points of DR it will hurt, but not as bad as it could. In return you turn around and unload on each of them with 2 attacks to their one. Even if SA or SS doesn't apply to the attack your weapon damage +enchants should be enough to make the exchange favorable for you.

[paddyfool]

I was going to say: this build could really use Pounce.

[Flickerdart]

Perfect TWF is an Epic feat, you can't take it before 21.

You're also not much of a rogue, what with 16 levels of swashbuckler. Where are your skills? Where are your special abilities? All you've got is a bunch of attacks that aren't likely to hit being slung around by a guy who can't even guarantee his own SA.

[Amphetryon]

Does your group use Psionics? The Collision property on your weapon(s) would be a nice, reliable increase to your damage output as a sort of poor-man's substitute for Craven.

[Snowbluff]

It's missing Staggering Strike, and Craven has already been mentioned.

Additionally, you don't have 4 levels of ranger for Distracting Attack, and TWF. Even a Bonus Feat could be gained by dropping the Ranger spellcasting with Champion of the Wilds.

[Aumeydio]

Perfect TWF is an Epic feat, you can't take it before 21.

You're also not much of a rogue, what with 16 levels of swashbuckler. Where are your skills? Where are your special abilities? All you've got is a bunch of attacks that aren't likely to hit being slung around by a guy who can't even guarantee his own SA.

Lol Able Learner ensures that I keep all my rogue skills up to snuff. And with Insightful Strike, I have every reason to keep my Int high.

And you're right. I didn't see that prereq. Looks like it'll be pushed to lvl 21.

[Urpriest]

We don't use ToB or ToM. We think they are extremely OP and, frankly, out of flavor with the rest of the rule sets for 3.5. Which makes sense, as they were published at the end of the 3rd Ed. line. They feel more in line with 4th Ed

The Dark Template is from ToM, though.

Granted, there's also a version of it in an FR adventure, so maybe you're looking at that one?

[Aumeydio]

The Dark Template is from ToM, though.

Granted, there's also a version of it in an FR adventure, so maybe you're looking at that one?

I was actually looking for the source outside of the ToM, because I remembered seeing it. So, thank you.

[Aumeydio]

You wouldn't happen to know the source book then, would you?

[Urpriest]

You wouldn't happen to know the source book then, would you?

Ah yes, it's Cormyr, Tearing of the Weave.

That said, if you're rejecting ToM for its late-3.5 design philosophy, efficient low-LA templates were a part of that design philosophy.

[Aumeydio]

Ah yes, it's Cormyr, Tearing of the Weave.

That said, if you're rejecting ToM for its late-3.5 design philosophy, efficient low-LA templates were a part of that design philosophy.

Well, the rejection is due to the style of the classes and the associated rule sets. They feel more 4e than 3.5e.

You guys aren't going to convince me otherwise. It's just a house rule.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's missing Staggering Strike, and Craven has already been mentioned.

Quoted for truth.

Trying to call something the best melee rogue build and leaving off not one but BOTH of these feats? Staggering Strike is single-handedly the reason why rogues can actually survive in melee combat in the first place.

[eggynack]

I don't really understand this issue with things occasionally being like 4e. It's not like those mechanics showing up in one corner of a game will cause a wildfire-like spread, consuming everything you love in the conflagration. Also, not really sure how ToM is like 4e. I've heard the ToB comparison, but not this one.

[Aumeydio]

Quoted for truth.

Trying to call something the best melee rogue build and leaving off not one but BOTH of these feats? Staggering Strike is single-handedly the reason why rogues can actually survive in melee combat in the first place.

Lol, who said it was the best? I said it was the best I could come up with. I came here for advice like this...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, I'd certainly suggest including it. Unless you dislike attaching an impossibly high save DC vs. staggered to every attack you make. :smallsmile:

Also, maybe I missed it, but...how are you actually getting full attacks frequently? All those TWF feats are kind of a waste w/o pounce or the like.

[eggynack]

Also, maybe I missed it, but...how are you actually getting full attacks frequently? All those TWF feats are kind of a waste w/o pounce or the like.
True enough. I'd probably use the cloistered cleric with travel devotion method. Seems like it'd fit in well with what a daring outlaw is trying to do. The classic barbarian method is obviously great as well.

[lsfreak]

Craven also fits with even a little refluffing. Here's a few:
You're a coward. You hit hard but are easily afraid (default).
You tunnel vision a bit in combat. Sudden, drastic changes are disorienting to you in combat.
You are calm and collected in combat. The rare instances your adrenaline spikes, though, you don't handle it well because you're usually so calm and collected.
Magic. You underwent a ritual to let you see where best to hit, but rewiring the brain is a delicate process. Maybe something went wrong, maybe increasing one thing requires sacrificing from something else. Maybe the guy tricked you and you didn't know you'd be susceptible to fear, maybe you shrugged it off as worth it or maybe you killed him for it but in the end found it too useful, maybe you don't even know you take the penalty.

[Aumeydio]

Craven also fits with even a little refluffing. Here's a few:
You're a coward. You hit hard but are easily afraid (default).
You tunnel vision a bit in combat. Sudden, drastic changes are disorienting to you in combat.
You are calm and collected in combat. The rare instances your adrenaline spikes, though, you don't handle it well because you're usually so calm and collected.
Magic. You underwent a ritual to let you see where best to hit, but rewiring the brain is a delicate process. Maybe something went wrong, maybe increasing one thing requires sacrificing from something else. Maybe the guy tricked you and you didn't know you'd be susceptible to fear, maybe you shrugged it off as worth it or maybe you killed him for it but in the end found it too useful, maybe you don't even know you take the penalty.

Oo, I like these! A little rewording goes a long ways ;) Question: Can't Craven only be taken at 1st level?

[Subaru Kujo]

Oo, I like these! A little rewording goes a long ways ;) Question: Can't Craven only be taken at 1st level?

Nah, you can take it whenever.

[EugeneVoid]

You need pounce.

[Urpriest]

You need pounce.

Or some other source of free movement. I'd advise reading Person_Man's guide on the subject (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), and finding an option that's right for you.

[kalasulmar]

Telling Blow, anyone? Keen Rapier or Improved Critical plus Telling Blow can be a very lethal combo.

[Eldariel]

Telling Blow, anyone? Keen Rapier or Improved Critical plus Telling Blow can be a very lethal combo.

Or you could just hide or flank and get sneak attack on every attack instead of just every critical...?

[Gwendol]

I would recommend looking at both knowledge devotion and travel devotion. Also: anklets of translocation and chronocharm of the horizon walker.

Pounce would be good, and can be done using a catfolk for example (more limited than taking a level of barbarian).

[Shinken]

I would recommend looking at both knowledge devotion and travel devotion. Also: anklets of translocation and chronocharm of the horizon walker.


Also, Quicksilver Boots and Belt of Battle.