Do binders really...

[Dr. Azkur]

Does binding Tenebrous really get you infinite uses of T/R undead? That's pretty broken taking into account the amount of things that use that as fuel.

All of the following are fair topics for this thread:


What the RAW are about this.
What you think RAI are here.
Your opinion on if it should or shouldn't be allowed.

[Draken]

The most broken thing that uses turn undead (DMM on very high cost metamagics) can't be fueled by Tenebrous because he gives 1 turn attempt every five turns, to a maximum of 1 turn attempt at any one time.

Most other divine feats are quite tame.

[Kazyan]

The most broken thing that uses turn undead (DMM on very high cost metamagics) can't be fueled by Tenebrous because he gives 1 turn attempt every five turns, to a maximum of 1 turn attempt at any one time.

Most other divine feats are quite tame.

Basically this; one of the most useful Divine feats to pair Tenebrous with is Divine Vigor. May or may not be as good as Minor Shapeshift--lots of temporary HP,

[JaronK]

Indeed, Divine Metamagic can't be fueled this way. With that said, there's one feat that lets you counterspell with a turn attempt, and that's quite nice.

JaronK

[A Tad Insane]

Since the RAW has been discussed, the RAI is you're binding the essence of a god to you, who will grant you all his powers for the duration of the pact, as opposed to when ever he feels like, as most gods do. It makes a lot more sense than how a gnome who was a really good architect gives you the power to spontaneously summon a massive wall of iron

[Dusk Eclipse]

Since the RAW has been discussed, the RAI is you're binding the essence of a god to you, who will grant you all his powers for the duration of the pact, as opposed to when ever he feels like, as most gods do. It makes a lot more sense than how a gnome who was a really good architect gives you the power to spontaneously summon a massive wall of iron

While this is true, what does it have to do with the OP's question? Besides Tenebrous isn't a god per se, but the spark of divinity Orcus once held.

On topic, Divine Might is another fun option for a Cha-heavy melee Binder, probably a good idea to pair it with Knight of the Sacred Seal

[Venger]

Does binding Tenebrous really get you infinite uses of T/R undead? That's pretty broken taking into account the amount of things that use that as fuel.

All of the following are fair topics for this thread:


What the RAW are about this.
What you think RAI are here.
Your opinion on if it should or shouldn't be allowed.


RAW: you can turn undead 1/5 turns
RAI: you can turn undead 1/5 turns

it should absolutely be allowed.

by the time you get it, you only have 1 vestige at a time and tenebrous isn't really that strong. he gives this, he can make darkness, let you see in it, gives you flicker, and that lame cold touch.

his influence is absolutely ruinous. if you get first in init, you must delay. with a DC of 21, you'll be failing it pretty often.


The most broken thing that uses turn undead (DMM on very high cost metamagics) can't be fueled by Tenebrous because he gives 1 turn attempt every five turns, to a maximum of 1 turn attempt at any one time.

Most other divine feats are quite tame.

this is the key thing. he gives you only one turn attempt, so DMM (anything) doesn't work, since DMM requires a spell to be paid for with its adjuster +1 in turns.

aside from that, you can only use it to power divine feats that are activated with 1 turn, and those are hardly going to break your game.

more importantly (and more fundamentally) even if you do nab some kind of divine feat you really like, activating it a lot will require binding tenebrous every day, something you're not going to want to do all the time, especially as you level up and unlock the 5th lvl vestiges like balam.

eventually, he'll age out and be replaced with better vestiges, so there's little reason for a player to even bother investing in a divine feat or devotion feat for him to power

if they do, that just means they're hamstringing themselves later on by binding him rather than haures or chupoclops, so either way it's just not a balance issue at all.


Indeed, Divine Metamagic can't be fueled this way. With that said, there's one feat that lets you counterspell with a turn attempt, and that's quite nice.

JaronK

that's "divine defiance" from FC2

remember, you still have to have the spell (or DM) prepared, so it's not like it lets you counterspell for free.

and again, tenebrous means you'll be doing that 1/5 rounds (so once a combat if that)

[Jack_Simth]

Oh, I don't know... if you get him through feats (or by Gestalt) rather than through class levels, there's some uses. Divine Spell Power, Domain Spontaneity, and Sacred Healing aren't so bad (all three from Complete Divine). Costs a lot of feats, but you can pretty much turn a cleric into a Sorcerer that way.

[Kaje]

You can't get Tenebrous through feats.

[lunar2]

While this is true, what does it have to do with the OP's question? Besides Tenebrous isn't a god per se, but the spark of divinity Orcus once held.

On topic, Divine Might is another fun option for a Cha-heavy melee Binder, probably a good idea to pair it with Knight of the Sacred Seal

while tenebrous may not be a fully fledged god, he acts in all mechanical ways as one. clerics who worship him get spells and rebuke undead, as normal. i don't remember what domains he gives. he's also the only vestige with a definite alignment (NE). so yeah, as a vestige he's just breaks all the rules.

[Gotterdammerung]

I've seen it played multiple ways and I honestly don't care which way it is interpreted. I've never felt it threatened the balance of a table whether I was a player or a DM.

But RAW from my reading says tenebrous gives you turn undead as a Cleric with the added restriction of only being able to activated one every 5 rounds. The number of uses for turn undead are a facet of the ability. They are not seperate. So if something says you get turn undead as a cleric then you have to go to cleric and read the rules on turn undead. And the rules say you get 3+char modifier uses per day. So I don't see why the tenebrous vestige would give you any more or less uses than 3+cha mod per day. The vestige says turn undead as a cleric and then adds the extra frequency limiter. The limiter says "once you have used this ability, you can not do so again for 5 rounds". That sentence in no way overides the 3+cha uses clause of the turn undead class feature.



So the raw reading ends with a result of granting the binder 3+cha modifier times per day uses of turn undead with the added limit of having to wait 5 rounds after using turn undead ability.

Now this does open up some interesting Optimization loopholes. One could argue that using turning attempts to fuel an ability other than turn undead is not strictly the same as using a turning attempt to fuel the turn undead ability and therefore fueling a divine feat would not trigger the lockout for 5 rounds.

You could possibly expel the vestige after you run out of uses and then reshape it for another set of uses. I vaguely remember some rules about fluctuating uses per day not working. Like if you use something 3 out of 3 times per day and then use an ability to let you do it 5 times per day then use those 2 extra uses then end the ability then recast it, the game is supposed to remember your max uses used. BUT I can't for the life of me remember where I read that rule.

So yeh, in closing, I don't care how its ruled but the raw is pretty clear to me. I think it is a fun vestige regardless of how you interpret it.

[bekeleven]

I'm AFB right now, but does the precise wording let you "spend a" turn attempt, like divine feats require? I seem to recall you have the ability to turn undead, but you don't explicitly have any formalized number of turn attempts, or other pool from which you can spend.

[Dr. Azkur]

I'm AFB right now, but does the precise wording let you "spend a" turn attempt, like divine feats require? I seem to recall you have the ability to turn undead, but you don't explicitly have any formalized number of turn attempts, or other pool from which you can spend.

That is exactly why I considered it to be up for debate.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm AFB right now, but does the precise wording let you "spend a" turn attempt, like divine feats require? I seem to recall you have the ability to turn undead, but you don't explicitly have any formalized number of turn attempts, or other pool from which you can spend.


You can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of your effective binder level.

Ok, well how does a cleric turn undead? Well lets look in the special attacks section of the phb. Ah, cool it tells us exactly how a cleric turns undead, including the rules for how many times they can do it in a day.

[lsfreak]

Pretty sure the most broken thing it can fuel is Travel Devotion... which already lasts 1 minute per use (that is, an entire encounter) and can be gotten for a single level in cleric rather than a 5-level-and-a-feat invest in binder.


Indeed, Divine Metamagic can't be fueled this way. With that said, there's one feat that lets you counterspell with a turn attempt, and that's quite nice.

JaronK
Still requires you to have the spell on hand, though, or dispel magic, and at the end of it you spent 5 levels in binder rather than a single level in cleric + a feat.

[JaronK]

Still requires you to have the spell on hand, though, or dispel magic, and at the end of it you spent 5 levels in binder rather than a single level in cleric + a feat.

You combine it with Anima Mage, so you only lost one level. That's what makes it strong.

Anima Mage is, of course, already an amazingly powerful class.

JaronK

[Vanitas]

You can turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of your effective binder level.

Ok, well how does a cleric turn undead? Well lets look in the special attacks section of the phb. Ah, cool it tells us exactly how a cleric turns undead, including the rules for how many times they can do it in a day.
Yeah, I don't get why this topic springs up every now and then. It's more limited than the cleric ability.

[Jack_Simth]

You can't get Tenebrous through feats.
That depends on whether or not the effective binder level from Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige qualify you for Improved Binding. If they do, then you can indeed bind Tenebrous through feats, as he's a 4th level Vestige (requiring the ability to select vestieges as a 7th level Binder, which all three feats would give you). Even if not, Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige + Arcane Casting qualifies you for Anima Mage pretty easily, and a few levels of that will then let you bind Tenebrous without breaking your casting progression.

[AmberVael]

That depends on whether or not the effective binder level from Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige qualify you for Improved Binding.

They don't. Improved Binding requires the soul binding feature, which the Bind Vestige feat does not grant.

What's more, the powers you can get from vestiges with those feats are explicitly listed, and there aren't any for Tenebrous. Even if you could bind Tenebrous, you would gain absolutely nothing for doing so unless you houseruled otherwise.

[Story]

The problem is that as soon as you get any "real" binding ability, Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige go away. You can't stack them like that. Those two feats are also very specifically limited. You can qualify for Anima Mage that way, but I can't imagine why you would want to, unless you're allowed to trade away the feats later.

Anyway, I don't see any real balance issues with Tenebrous, though admittedly, I'm not aware of all the options out there. Personally, I just kept binding Malphas all the way until Balam became available. Malphas is just so awesome.