Does my Party Seem Balanced?

[albeaver89]

We have:
1) Swordsage, using a spear and shield.
2) Rouge, PrCing into something, unknown yet.
3) Druid, caster/Wildshaper.
4) Wizard, Transmutation specialist giving up Necromancy/Evocation.


I'm the DM and wondering if the classes seems to mesh well...If they don't what would you switch out/change?

[Palanan]

Ordinarily the Playground would probably tell you that your non-caster, non-martial character will be left in the dust by the others.

But rouges are overpowdered, so it's okay.

:smallbiggrin:

[Zanos]

Ordinarily the Playground would probably tell you that your non-caster, non-martial character will be left in the dust by the others.

But rouges are overpowdered, so it's okay.

:smallbiggrin:
Only if they take disguise.

[mephnick]

I had a similar group in the last big campaign I did.

Once we hit level 10ish, the casters definitely could have ignored the melee completely, especially the rogue.

But I had a good group and the rogue contributed A LOT outside of combat, he was actually the most powerful character by the end of it because of things he set up through roleplaying and social skills. The casters were more interested in combat, so carried the game there.

TL:DR, depends on the group and the players, but all things being equal the rogue may feel a bit pressed to keep up.

[Know(Nothing)]

The first few levels will be pretty balanced, depending on optimization. After 4 or 5 levels the Wizard and particularly the Druid will begin to pull ahead of the other two. Then the Swordsage will begin to feel less relevant around 7 and 8. From there on out it's pretty much the Casters' game regardless of optimization.

I love rogues, but it can be chore to keep them useful in mid-to-high levels.

[eggynack]

Probably not, no. Really, the rogue is about one tier away from making your party have the greatest spread it could realistically have. You should maybe convince the rogue to try factotum. That could make things at least reasonable.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't know about the Druid, but unless the wizard is focused on using Polymorph (on himself), Baleful Polymorph, and various other self-targeting and offensive Transmutation spells (as well as Conjuration spells that focus on summoning monsters and doing direct attacks), he's going to end up buffing the party and slowing down enemies. Rogue should be okay. Swordsage I'm kinda worried about, because spear and shield doesn't play to any of their strengths and is already a weak style (because it's a simple weapon and a shield).

[eggynack]

Yeah, wizards slot more into team playing than druids do. To put it simply, wizards get haste, and druids get animal growth. That's not to say that druids have zero team help spells, because they're there, but it's quite a bit more out of the way. Realistically, the closest they come is usually going to be something like entangle, locking down the battlefield such that the not-druid can pick off the enemies one by one. Granted, the druid can also pick off the enemies one by one, but that's just the state of things. They're a bit of a one man party in a lot of ways.

[Sgt. Cookie]

We have:
1) Swordsage, using a spear and shield.
2) Rouge, PrCing into something, unknown yet.
3) Druid, caster/Wildshaper.
4) Wizard, Transmutation specialist giving up Necromancy/Evocation.


I'm the DM and wondering if the classes seems to mesh well...If they don't what would you switch out/change?

1) Swordsage should be fine, given that his maneuvers will be doing most of the work. But you should probably encourage a stronger weapon than a Spear, perhaps a Trident? It's a stronger than a Shortspear (Which I assume he's using, as a normal Spear is a two handed weapon) while retaining more or less the same style.

2) Since you're the DM, implement the following houserule: "Only Oozes and Swarms are immune to Sneak Attack".

Seriously, it's not OP (Far from it) and from a thematic point of view, it makes no sense that an Undead or a Construct or a Plant doesn't have some weakness that can't be exploited. This should make the Rogue feel better.

Or, ask if he'd prefer a Factotum (Dungeonscape) which fills a similar niche to a Rogue, but does it better.

3) Definitely have the Druid pick up the Shapeshifter Variant from PHP II, you might want to consider having the Druid be a Spontaneous Caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm), as well. Just to keep the power down somewhat.

4) Can't really help you there, Wizards are, well, Wizards.

Exactly how is your Wizard playing up the "Transmuter" angle? Is it a key part to his character or just a side gig?

If it's the former, ask if he'd be alright with a fixed list, like a Bard or a Beguiler. If he is alright with that, come back to us and we can help you with a thematically appropriate list.

If it's the latter and the Wizard is played smartly, the Wizard is likely to dominate.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1) A Swordsage doesn't get their Wis to AC when using a shield, so this is a terrible idea unless his stats are so bad that he dumped Wis. If he's only going to be using a shield at 1st level, and toss it away when he hits 2nd and gets that Wis to AC, then he should be good. I actually prefer two-handed Swordsage over TWF, mostly due to personal preference, but mechanically he should be fine, especially with Combat Reflexes and reach and clever positioning.

2) If he's prestiging into something that gets spells, then he should be ok. If he's just focusing on getting high sneak attack and skill points per character level, then he's going to be left in the dust. A Rogue with spells or psionics is capable of doing all the same stuff that a Rogue without those can do, but spells or psionics will make him capable of so much more. One of my favorite builds for TWF is Spellthief 1/ Psion 4/ Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) 6/ Slayer 9, due to Mind Cripple.

Something like a Rogue + Wizard 5/ Unseen Seer 4 or 8/ Arcane Trickster 10 or 6 would be decent, and you can substitute Wizard for Beguiler or Sorcerer if desired. Even then, Spellthief would be a better choice than Rogue, especially if he uses Beguiler as it will still give him access to wands of spells from certain Wizard schools. Considering the Wizard's prohibited schools, he should definitely consider picking up some of the stronger Necromancy and Evocation tricks if he uses arcane spellcasting. For example, (Wand of) Command Undead, (Lesser Rod of Maximized, Spell Storing) Vampiric Touch, fear effects (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) in general, most force effects, (Split Ray) Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion/Enervation, (Fell Drain, Fell Frighten) Death Armor and Fire Shield, Wall of Force and Resilient Sphere, etc.
http://www.darklegacycomics.com/1008xNx41.jpg.pagespeed.ic.8hyncDXsPJ.jpg (http://www.darklegacycomics.com/41.html)

3) Druid is a difficult class to do poorly with, so I think he'll be fine. Just encourage him to not multiclass or take any prestige classes. Few things are better for him than more Druid levels, and those few things probably shouldn't be permitted in most games.

4) If he buffs the party a lot and uses crowd controls, this game will be fun for everyone. Just be sure the noncombat challenges the party faces can be solved by more than one of the characters, and everyone should be fine.

[eggynack]

3) Druid is a difficult class to do poorly with, so I think he'll be fine. Just encourage him to not multiclass or take any prestige classes. Few things are better for him than more Druid levels, and those few things probably shouldn't be permitted in most games.
Or, y'know, the opposite of that. Cause we're ostensibly trying to cause the druid to not take over the game. I think that most of the druid-even and druid-superior options aren't crazy overpowered, by the way, as long as you consider dips. It's mostly just planar shepherd and hathran that are broken to all hell.

[Vrock_Summoner]

You haven't really told us enough about their builds and playstyles. Just the core information you've presented doesn't really tell us enough about the characters to see if they're balanced to each other or not.

It looks like it will be fine as long as nobody acts like a jerk, though. I will agree with the swordsage ditching the shield and/or getting a stronger weapon, but if he's got a particular concept in mind that shouldn't stop him.

... Ha ha, I'm just kidding, your party balance is terribad. Get out of these forums right now and tell your non-caster players they suck at life and don't deserve to be so much as seen in His Holy Pun-Punnery's world.

(Also not enough creating an army of Vrocks, even the wizard and druid are being losers)

There are very obvious repercussions for trying to take me too seriously. I was totally kidding.

[Drachasor]

If you are worried about the Druid being too powerful, I'd say let him choose one:
Spontaneous SNA + Familiar
Wildshape + Familiar
Familiar Companion (like an Arcane Heirophant)

or if you think that's too much
Spontaneous SNA
Wildshape
Animal Companion

Basically they only get one of three big things besides casting. You could toss on having them be spontaneous casters too if you want (though that throws a cramp in things if they want to Awaken an animal or otherwise use a spell that only has rare use).

Wizard should be more than fine. Sounds like he knows there are plenty of non-evocation spells that are good in combat. And he'll have plenty of out-of-combat ability. Too bad there's no easy way to lower Wizard power. You could try altering the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer -- if the latter, then instead of undead they get equivalent constructs. You'd have to make up a fixed list of spells though.

The Rogue probably won't be fine unless they are PrCing into something great with magic -- like the Chameleon or Arcane Trickster.

Something weird is going on with that Swordsage given the shield. Why a shield? Why not a Warblade or Crusader if using a shield? Otherwise they should be fine.

That's my thought anyhow, assuming you'd like to aim for something T3-ish.

[The Trickster]

We have:
1) Swordsage, using a spear and shield.
2) Rouge, PrCing into something, unknown yet.
3) Druid, caster/Wildshaper.
4) Wizard, Transmutation specialist giving up Necromancy/Evocation.


I'm the DM and wondering if the classes seems to mesh well...If they don't what would you switch out/change?

As someone mentioned before, the shield thing confuses me a bit. Maybe a house rule that allows him to keep his shield and his wisdom modifier? Otherwise, he should be ok.

This group can work together just fine, but it depends on the optimization level of the group. The swordsage doesn't seem very optimized, while the wizard does. Ask the wizard (and the druid as well) what their character's goals are, and go from there.

[strider24seven]

We have:
1) Swordsage, using a spear and shield.
2) Rouge, PrCing into something, unknown yet.
3) Druid, caster/Wildshaper.
4) Wizard, Transmutation specialist giving up Necromancy/Evocation.


I'm the DM and wondering if the classes seems to mesh well...If they don't what would you switch out/change?

I would say that your party is fairly imbalanced, especially at low levels, where the Druid is a party in and of himself, and the Wizard has the capability to bypass entire encounters by himself with a single spell. Meanwhile, the Swordsage will be doing passably well on his own, assuming he picks his maneuvers well and takes Adaptive Style as soon as possible. The Makeup Artist will be likely fall into one of two categories: struggling with combat or struggling with money (depending on if he goes the flask route or not). If the Makeup Artist claims that he is "focusing on skills," this is a red flag that he will be dead weight to a party consisting of Wizard, Druid, and Stuff.

Suggestions (in order of desirability):
1) Upgrade the Makeup Artist to a Feral Dreadlord (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1094746), or some other combat-based character. It's not as glamorous as a Makeup Artist, but it will get the job done, and will remain useful in combat as the character levels.
2) Try to convince the Druid to flank for the Makeup Artist his animal companion so that the Makeup Artist does not feel useless in combat.
3) Try to convince the Swordsage to take Island of Blades so that he can more easily flank for the Makeup Artist, so that the Makeup Artist does not feel useless in combat.
4) Tell the Makeup Artist to work on his/her foundation - it is the key to evening skin tone.

[albeaver89]

OK! The Wizard wants to kinda be a time lord.

I'm houserulling that you can use a spear with one hand, but can not ready against a charge with one hand (you need two for that) [this is based on the fact that spartans used one hand with 6-8 ft spears]

The Rogue and Druid are new-ish players. The rouge is going the spy-batman-type angle (lots of role play). I like the S.A. to everything but oozes and what ever else you said.

The druid is a 12 year old girl (the character not race) for thematic reasons. This is going to cause a - to wis int str (I forget where i read that but I believe it was in a book)

OP-wise it's mid-level. The swordsage is really good at tactics the wizard knows when it's ok to game-break and when it's not. The druid doesn't really know how to be high-op. The rogue just picked for reasons listed above.

Rogue and Druid players are girls.

[Invader]

I think a good general rule of thumb is balance your encounters around your party, don't have them change classes they want to play. Its really to hard to say whether or not classes play well together because so much depends on how the player plays the class.

[albeaver89]

Thanks for all the advice :) I took it all to heart!

[Metahuman1]

Consider looking up Wildshape and Mystic Ranger variants and applying them, then offering that as an alternative to druid.

The wizard has me worried, but a constrained wizard should be able to hold himself down to high tier 3 low tier 2, were an optimized rogue should be able to keep pace.