Making a decent Truenamer(?).

[rmnimoc]

I'm planning on playing a truenamer in an upcoming campaign, because Truenamers are awesome. Well, awesome in theory, which is why I'm here to run through this with you guys first.

I'll start playing this build at level 1, any homebrew is out, any 1st Party books are in (including dragon compendium). It'll likely be a rather magic-lite party, with a Ranger, Paladin, and Rogue. I'll try to explain my reasoning for the levels as I take them.
I'm also still up in the air about race, I'm thinking Human (because I have a hatred for Illumians, not really sure why)
24 point buy,
8 Str
10 Dex
8 Con
16 Int
10 Wis
16 Cha
Truenamer 1: You can't be a truenamer without it (well you can but it doesn't really count). Skill Focus: Truespeak. Truespeak is 3+4+2 for 9 against 15+2*1=17, so I'll be good on an 8 or less for Universal Aptitude. The plus 5 makes it 3 or better for my allies.

Truenamer 1/Marshal 1: Gets me motivate intelligence, making my slightly less MAD. Also gives me Skill focus (diplomacy) which I need for the Exemplar dip later. Truespeak 3+4+2+3, sadly the skill is cross-class for Marshals, but the charisma bonus to skills is awesome. I'll need a 7 or less.

Truenamer 2/Marshal 1: Taking more levels in marshal is pointless. Plus with MWoN now my words can do more than just make the party pass any skill checks. Item Familiar, hard to be any good at truenaming without it. I can now fix that little hole in my truespeak, amping it up to 6. 6+3+3+2+1(IF) gives me 15. I'll need a 6 to affect things my level.

Truenamer 3/Marshal 1: Kind of need these. Hidden Truth, now I just have to change my name to Google. One more charisma, since I add it to truespeak anyway (17 Cha now). 7+3+3+2+3 (Dumping every non-truespeak skill into IF for now). 18 against 23, I still need a 5 or better.

Truenamer 4/Marshal 1: Now I've got LotCT. Fortify Armor, Archers Eye. Sitting on 8+3+3+2+5. 21 against 25, I need a 4.

Truenamer 5/Marshal 1: A rather pointless level for me, I'll probably grab Temporal Twist. Possibly grab extend utterance. 9+3+3+2+7, checks will start to level out soon, but for now with 24 I only need a 3 to hit 27. Eight if I want it extended.

Truenamer 6/Marshal 1: I get a semi-useless class feature and 3rd level utterances. Seek the sky!!!! 10+3+3+2+9. 28 means I hit my normal check on a one the first time I use it, need a 6 for extended. I <3 Item Familiars. Speaking of, mine will now be intelligent.

Truenamer 7/Marshal 1: I get my second LotCT (Analyze item is rather meh, but whatever), I also get the class feature of feeling smug at knowing even more random information. Oh, and Greater Speed of the Zephyr. One more charisma too, I'm rather happy about this level. 11+3+4+2+11 is 31, so I'm easily hitting the extended on a 3. Which is good because the Law of Resistance is going to make that high fast now that I've got a saveless slow.

Truenamer 8/Marshal 1: Another nice level, I basically get two feats and a whole new type of utterance. I'll likely go with Quicken utterance and Recitation of Mindful State because the rest of the Recitations are rather worthless. Fog from the Void and Moderate Word of Nurturing for my utterances. 12+3+4+2+12 is 33. I'll still extended hit on a 3 and quicken takes 13. Unless I use my first utterance to get that lovely +5 untyped to everything and then it's an autosuccess and an 8.

Truenamer 9/Marshal 1: I get scry once a day and Temporal Spiral. Oh, and my is now as smart as I am, and far more wise. I'll finally be able to have intelligent conversations with it, which is always good for laughs. My truespeech is increasing at the same speed as the DC, so that won't change much this level.

Truenamer 9/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1: Now I take 10 on truenaming and get a +4 bonus. At 14+3+4+2+14+4 I can safely say I'll only fail on things where I require 51. I can reliable hit a cr 18 creature now. I also get to be even more smug, since I get to always take 10 on 3 other skills too. With all those skill points I can drop a few ranks in Autohypnosis and I can memorize and recall everything. Always. Plus it gives me a nice and fluffy reason for knowing All the Things. All of them.

Truenamer 10/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1: Yay, I get a fourth level utterance. Might be a bigger deal if they were as good without other casters, but whatever. I'm thinking I'll go with Spell Rebirth. I also get more natural smugness, and another point in charisma(19). Not sure what feat to take.

Truenamer 11/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1: Rebuild Item and Potent WoN. On the bright side I get to hit CR20 monsters effortlessly with my speech.*

Truenamer 12/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1: Speak Rock to Mud and maybe Magic Contraction? I'm at 17+17+4+3+2+4 for my truename checks, DC to hit my party/cr appropriate enemies is 43. I'm hitting them (47vs43) without rolling or taking 10. It amuses me. It also amuses my IF, who can now either give me an additional +2 to pretty much every roll I make, or warp me around as per dimension door at will (maybe, does anyone have clarification on how often an IF can use special purpose dedicated abilities?)

Truenamer 13/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1: Word of Bostering, and an undecided feat. Also sending.

Truenamer 14/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1: Greater Seek the Sky, and more smugness. 20 Charisma now.

Truenamer 15/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1: Transmute Weapon, undecided recitation feat, greater energy negation.

Truenamer 16/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1: Master the Four Winds, Eldritch Attraction, undecided special ability.

Truenamer 17/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1: Speak to the masses is cool. No idea what to grab for an utterance.

Truenamer 18/Marshal 1/Exemplar 1: Yay level 20. Mystic Rampart. Cool news is I've got 23+23+5+3+2+4= 60 ranks in Truespeak. I'm hitting level 27s without a roll. I can quicken+ignore sr pretty much for free against things my level. 21 Cha.

Having this all written out, it is rather obvious that since I won't get conjunctive gate pretty much every truenamer level above 12 is rather useless. This really didn't work out quite as well as I wanted it too. :(

This will likely be a rather low-op game, but even then this feels rather weak. Anyway feel free to poke holes in this and tell me what I could do better, and if you can find six levels of something that would be useful here that would be awesome. I also need some ideas for a few of the utterances (lvl 19, higher level utterances are lame) and feats (15,18). Also another feat for level 1 if I choose to stick with human.
Thanks.
Edit: That better?

[weckar]

To what level do you think this game will realistically get?

[rmnimoc]

The only time our campaigns don't hit level 20 is when:
1. It is a one-shot adventure.
2. We somehow destroy the world before then.

Since I doubt a truenamer, paladin, rogue, and ranger can somehow destroy the world [citation needed] we will most likely hit level 20.

[weckar]

Wow. You must either have some crazy-fast level progression or play a lot. Your build seems a little vulnerable to you being sonicly deprived, or otherwise unable to speak...

[Kelb_Panthera]

The contents of your spoiler are virtually unreadable. Could you take a stab at reformatting that to something a bit more legible? Perhaps borrow the ICOC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16981082&postcount=1) format?

[weckar]

ICOC? *Googles?

International Code of Conduct?

International Churches of Christ?

International Conference on Oriental Carpets?

Indonesia Council Open Conference?

[Vrock_Summoner]

ICOC? *Googles?

International Code of Conduct?

International Churches of Christ?

International Conference on Oriental Carpets?

Indonesia Council Open Conference?

Or maybe the thing he actually linked to? (Unless you were just trying to be funny)

[weckar]

There was no link when I started writing that post.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I added the link after I posted. I thought it might help to clarify but I didn't have the address handy when I first responded.

[Red Fel]

Are you using Truenamers as-written, or are you using one of the homebrew fixes?

I ask because Truenamers have a lot of mechanical flaws that actually make them worsen as they level, until they hit Truenamer 20 and get that awesome Gate ability.

... Which your build doesn't have, because you stop at Truenamer 18.

There is a very good handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115) on Truenamers. I suggest you read it, because you seem to be operating under at least two misconceptions.

1. That Truenamers are "awesome." They have some awesome fluff, to be sure, and are conceptually incredibly cool. Unfortunately, the skill- and DC-scaling of their primary class features renders them painfully ineffective at many of the things they were designed to do; they look good on paper, but are very hard to play in practice without substantial optimization.

2. That "pretty much every truenamer level above 12 is useless." While this has been used describe pretty much every level of Truenamer regardless, there are two exceptions, and they both come at level 20. First, there's the class ability "Say My Name and I Am There," which is just solid gold. Second, there's the Conjunctive Gate utterance; Lexicon of the Perfected Map level 4, which means you only get it at level 20. Gate without the xp cost.

These are things to keep in mind. I'm not discouraging you from playing Truenamer if that's what you want; I am encouraging you to read the handbook. Keep in mind those idiotic laws they put on the Utterances in order to keep you from spamming them, and enjoy.

[Spuddles]

Truenaming is a skill check, the easiest thing to optimize in the game. With an item familiar and a handful of other tricks, hitting truenaming DCs is trivial.

It's a class with a high optimization floor and low ceiling. You'd think CharOp would be all over that sort of "balance", but I guess not.

[Psyren]

Truenaming is a skill check, the easiest thing to optimize in the game. With an item familiar and a handful of other tricks, hitting truenaming DCs is trivial.

It's a class with a high optimization floor and low ceiling. You'd think CharOp would be all over that sort of "balance", but I guess not.

Even if you hit the DCs all the time it's pretty lackluster, that's why. The homebrew fixes don't just fix the math, they also tweak the Laws (especially Sequence) and give it better things to do.

[Prime32]

Consider a dip in Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) monk, and building towards the Word Given Form martial art. Or taking Trickery Devotion and having your double use utterances for you.

[Chronos]

Truenaming is a skill check, the easiest thing to optimize in the game. With an item familiar and a handful of other tricks, hitting truenaming DCs is trivial.

It's a class with a high optimization floor and low ceiling. You'd think CharOp would be all over that sort of "balance", but I guess not.
Wrong on both counts. First, many specific skill checks are easy to optimize, including Bluff, Diplomacy, Jump, and several others. But the methods you use to optimize one of those aren't the same as the methods you use to optimize another, and the vast majority of methods won't do a damn thing for True Speech. Yes, yes, "just get an item familiar"... When was the last time you heard an Item Familiar recommended for anyone but a truenamer? Even the Jumplomancer doesn't use an item familiar.

Second, the Truenamer has the exact opposite of a high optimization floor. A high optimization floor means you can screw up a fair bit of your optimization, but still come out relatively OK. With a truenamer, though, if you screw up even a little, you can't use any of your class abilities at all. It's not even like a fighter: If you choose low-value feats as a fighter, you'll at least be able to use your low-value feats, but a truenamer who's chosen poorly is completely useless.

[Spuddles]

Wrong on both counts. First, many specific skill checks are easy to optimize, including Bluff, Diplomacy, Jump, and several others. But the methods you use to optimize one of those aren't the same as the methods you use to optimize another, and the vast majority of methods won't do a damn thing for True Speech. Yes, yes, "just get an item familiar"... When was the last time you heard an Item Familiar recommended for anyone but a truenamer? Even the Jumplomancer doesn't use an item familiar.

Second, the Truenamer has the exact opposite of a high optimization floor. A high optimization floor means you can screw up a fair bit of your optimization, but still come out relatively OK. With a truenamer, though, if you screw up even a little, you can't use any of your class abilities at all. It's not even like a fighter: If you choose low-value feats as a fighter, you'll at least be able to use your low-value feats, but a truenamer who's chosen poorly is completely useless.

Boohoo?

Sorry they didnt print erudite 2.0?

I'm not really sure what your point is, other than the class is too hard to break.

[Bovine Colonel]

Boohoo?

Sorry they didnt print erudite 2.0?

I'm not really sure what your point is, other than the class is too hard to break.

The first point was just a refutation of the idea (which you posted) that (truenaming is a skill check -> hitting the DCs is trivial).

The second point wasn't that it's hard to break (which you interpreted it as) but that it's easy to screw up really badly (to refute your assertion to the contrary).

I'm not sure if you actually misunderstood both of those but I'm putting this here anyway just in case.

[rmnimoc]

Are you using Truenamers as-written, or are you using one of the homebrew fixes?

Truenamers as written.



There is a very good handbook on Truenamers. I suggest you read it, because you seem to be operating under at least two misconceptions.
It is a good guide, and I was using it as I made this.


1. That Truenamers are "awesome." They have some awesome fluff, to be sure, and are conceptually incredibly cool. Unfortunately, the skill- and DC-scaling of their primary class features renders them painfully ineffective at many of the things they were designed to do; they look good on paper, but are very hard to play in practice without substantial optimization.
That's exactly what I meant when I said they were good "in theory". I'm well aware of the fact they suck.


2. That "pretty much every truenamer level above 12 is useless." While this has been used describe pretty much every level of Truenamer regardless, there are two exceptions, and they both come at level 20. First, there's the class ability "Say My Name and I Am There," which is just solid gold. Second, there's the Conjunctive Gate utterance; Lexicon of the Perfected Map level 4, which means you only get it at level 20. Gate without the xp cost.
I was talking about how those levels above 12 don't really add anything to my build, as opposed to the previous levels which were important towards getting the character how I wanted them to be.


Consider a dip in Cobra Strike monk, and building towards the Word Given Form martial art. Or taking Trickery Devotion and having your double use utterances for you.
I'll look into the monk idea, and trickery devotion seems pretty good. Anyone know how your simulacrum truespeaking interacts with the laws of sequences and resistance?

[Zaq]

Starting at 1, truly and seriously planning on hitting 20? Interesting.

You say you've already read my guide, so some of what I'm saying will probably be familiar, but hey, let's get to it.

If you don't like illumians (ya freak :smalltongue:), yeah, human's a good default unless proven otherwise. As I mentioned in the guide, azurins can spend their bonus feat on a nice 2d6 touch attack, which might make the first few levels a lot easier (or at least a lot less boring). If you do go for human, Able Learner is always a good choice for a feat, as is Mortalbane (since you seem to be planning on actually using the WoN line offensively).

If you are actually, seriously planning on hitting 20 (or, more importantly, 17) and spending any amount of time at the high end of the level range, I would actually recommend against losing Truenamer levels, believe it or not. Speak Unto the Masses is game-changing in a way that no other single Truenamer level is (save for Quicken Utterance, but meh, feat vs. class feature). And of course, once you hit 17, you're kind of only a stone's throw away from 20, right? It'd kind of be a shame to almost get Say My Name and I Am There, but just barely miss it, don't you think? (Oh, and Conjunctive Gate, too.) That said, if you're not likely to actually see the higher end of things (or if you level up so fast that you'll hardly spend any time at 17+ once you get there), then I'm right there with you about Truenamer features not being worth much early on.

Have you cleared Exemplar with your GM? A lot of people (and I'm one of these people) argue that Skill Mastery doesn't work with Truespeak, much like how it takes a specific exception to take 10 on UMD, distraction or no distraction. If your GM is okay with Skill Mastery working on Truespeak, then I recommend that instead of Exemplar, you take Hardened Criminal instead (which is a feat on pg. 95 of City of Stormreach). Honestly, the wording on Hardened Criminal is really permissive, and I think that it actually might allow taking 10 even on Truespeak or UMD. A feat is easier than a class level, and it can come online WAY earlier. (You'll need to get Iron Will somewhere, but just take that with your human bonus feat, or shell out for the Otyugh Hole if your group's okay with that kind of thing.) This can either make going straight-class Truenamer not give up as much as you might have thought, or it can free up a level for, well, something else. What else, exactly, depends on what you feel is lacking, and on when you want to take that level. Exemplar is still fun for Skill Mastery of other skills, so it's not like it's bad, though it's important to remember that competence is the most common kind of bonus, so you may or may not actually get that +4. If you were to take a different class, when do you think you'd want to take it, early or late?

Glancing at your early plans, I don't see Inertia Surge anywhere. This is an issue. Inertia Surge is one of the best utterances in the game. I understand the urge to get some kind of WoN online ASAP (so as to have a direct effect on combat), but Inertia Surge is going to be way, way better in the long run. I say either take IS as your second utterance or squeeze in Minor Utterance of the Evolving Mind somewhere, because it's hella useful.

I do see a lot of WoN in your build. You might look into feats that will give WoN more oomph . . . Mortalbane is the obvious early front-runner, and Knowledge Devotion actually does apply to WoN's damage if you're into that sort of thing. Some of the SLA-boosting feats (Maximize, Empower, etc.) are also pretty cool. I forget if there's any ways of maintaining concentration on an SLA without spending your full action on it (or more specifically, any ways that are easily available to 'Namers), but if you can think of any, that'd be worth poking at.

Regarding Trickery Devotion, that's a GM call, since Trickery Devotion basically didn't think of, well, anything that could be done with it. At best, it'd only work at level 15+ (remember that utterances aren't a function of the skill itself, but rather SLAs that you possess), and even that's ambiguous ("combat actions," WotC? Vague much?).

Not sure if anything I said here is actually helpful, but hey, here you go. If I can answer any other questions, fire away, though the more specific you make them, the better.

[Chronos]

Quoth Spuddles:

I'm not really sure what your point is, other than the class is too hard to break.
My point isn't that it's hard to break; it's that it's hard to make work at all. As in, to make it work at all, you need to do things that, in any other case, would be considered broken. Beyond broken, actually: Even in the context of TO builds like the Jumplomancer, an Item Familiar is considered to be just going too far. And yet, that's what people routinely suggest for the Truenamer to reach even basic competence.

[Rejusu]

Truenaming is a skill check, the easiest thing to optimize in the game. With an item familiar and a handful of other tricks, hitting truenaming DCs is trivial.

It's a class with a high optimization floor and low ceiling. You'd think CharOp would be all over that sort of "balance", but I guess not.

Except it's the DCs that are the problem with Truenamers, not the skill check. And as far as I know there's nothing that can be done to optimise those. Plus as already noted many of the methods used for optimising skill checks only work on specific skills. It's far easier to optimise the core skills than true speaking. And even if you go through the trouble of doing that all it does is make the class just about playable, not good.

CharOp isn't all over it because optimisers are more interested in optimising something to work better, not to make it work at all.

[prufock]

How badly do you want conjunctive gate? Ditch the marshal level and pick up Leadership instead to get a marshal cohort with Motivate Intelligence. Ditch Exemplar since the bonus is competence and those should be easy to get and don't stack. Taking 10 is nice but do you want to take 10 or do you want XP-free GATES at level 20? Free wishes for everyone!

[Snowbluff]

Even if you hit the DCs all the time it's pretty lackluster, that's why. The homebrew fixes don't just fix the math, they also tweak the Laws (especially Sequence) and give it better things to do.

Law of Sequence isn't that bad. It's not bad at all, actually. By uttering and Utterance with an altered level/check, you don't run into it. The Law of Sequence is like Multiclassing rules in that way.

Honestly, I don't think the Truenamer is really that dysfunctional with skill optimization. I am more worried about the effects you can generate. If I were to do a Truenamer fix, I would pretty much have to rewrite every utterance and make the class into more of a skill monkey in addition to the utterances.

[Spuddles]

Except it's the DCs that are the problem with Truenamers, not the skill check. And as far as I know there's nothing that can be done to optimise those. Plus as already noted many of the methods used for optimising skill checks only work on specific skills. It's far easier to optimise the core skills than true speaking. And even if you go through the trouble of doing that all it does is make the class just about playable, not good.

CharOp isn't all over it because optimisers are more interested in optimising something to work better, not to make it work at all.

I guess I just dont see the problem with that.

[Ravens_cry]

If you find yourself with a group that doesn't optimize much but you enjoy it a lot, it could be a good exercise to scratch that itch without completely overshadowing the rest of the group, not because it is easy but because it is hard.

[Spuddles]

If you find yourself with a group that doesn't optimize much but you enjoy it a lot, it could be a good exercise to scratch that itch without completely overshadowing the rest of the group, not because it is easy but because it is hard.

Good point.

[Bonzai]

I have played a True Namer from lvl 3- 15, so I have a bit of input.

1st. Make sure that Item Familiar is allowed. Do that and you won't really have to worry about DC's, and all improvements that you make actually make to your skill check actually are improvements. Without it, you are actually losing 5% efficiency every level unless band aided by items and other abilities. If your DM seems reluctant, offer to take a watered down version that only does the skill boost.

2nd. See if your DM will work with you for a home brew feat that lets you effect more than one target. Ideally, one that functions like speak to the masses, but lets you target your whole party within a certain distance. Other wise the law of sequence becomes really burdensome and frustrating when you are trying to buff your party.

If those things are okay with your DM, then I will say that a True Namer can be an OK experience and contribute a lot to a party.

Next, there are three play styles that the class can play as, and you really need to plan your build around them.

1. Gish. You can actually get some very decent AC, Healing, and all kinds of buffs that can turn you into a pseudo gish.

2. Save monkey. A lot of utterances force saves, and if you want those to be failed with any regularity, then you need to optimize it.

3. Buffer/no save de-buffer. Play a support character. Give your tank hast healing, fly, extra attacks, etc.. What you do use on enemies shouldn't rely on saves. Things like slow, taking away flight, etc...

I kept an online diary of my experience with the class. You can find it here.

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1193391

[Psyren]

Law of Sequence isn't that bad. It's not bad at all, actually. By uttering and Utterance with an altered level/check, you don't run into it. The Law of Sequence is like Multiclassing rules in that way.

That's the problem - the only way to keep the LoS from being debilitating is to intentionally read the rules in such a way as to take it to the other extreme and make it a meaningless, toothless limitation and a waste of text. Limitations shouldn't vary from crippling to nonexistent with no middle ground.

That rule about higher level utterances not counting as the same one was clearly meant to apply to utterances with different grades, e.g. Lesser Word of Nurturing vs. Greater Word of Nurturing. It was a way to keep Truenamers who had taken both from being overly punished compared to TNs who had not. The Heighten rule meanwhile was purely to deal with things like Globe of Invulnerability.

I much prefer Kyeudo's version of the LoS, which only applies per target. So you can throw Reversed WoN on as many foes as you want (subject to the Law of Resistance of course) but you can't cast it again on them until the first one has run its course. It's simple, elegant and doesn't screw you for not having Speak Unto The Masses yet.

[Snowbluff]

That's the problem - the only way to keep the LoS from being debilitating is to intentionally read the rules in such a way as to take it to the other extreme and make it a meaningless, toothless limitation and a waste of text. Limitations shouldn't vary from crippling to nonexistent with no middle ground.

That rule about higher level utterances not counting as the same one was clearly meant to apply to utterances with different grades, e.g. Lesser Word of Nurturing vs. Greater Word of Nurturing. It was a way to keep Truenamers who had taken both from being overly punished compared to TNs who had not. The Heighten rule meanwhile was purely to deal with things like Globe of Invulnerability. You don't really have to imply that it's only a certain reading that does this. It tells you this. I don't need to tell anyone that this is an intentional reading, since that would imply someone is trying to screw the rules. It's the rule.

Really it's just wonky crap that stand between you and uttering the same ability again. Resistance adds a +2 to the DC, and you have to add another +4 to the DC if you already have the Utterance active. It's only as pointless as the Law of Resistance, even less so since the DC change is higher. If anything, it looks like they intended this, and it's entirely RAW.

[Kyeudo]

Truenamers as written.


You poor, poor fool. :smallfrown: Run while you still have a chance, before you end up like me.

[Psyren]

You don't really have to imply that it's only a certain reading that does this. It tells you this. I don't need to tell anyone that this is an intentional reading, since that would imply someone is trying to screw the rules. It's the rule.

Really it's just wonky crap that stand between you and uttering the same ability again. Resistance adds a +2 to the DC, and you have to add another +4 to the DC if you already have the Utterance active. It's only as pointless as the Law of Resistance, even less so since the DC change is higher. If anything, it looks like they intended this, and it's entirely RAW.

The problem is that your reading treats it as a different utterance, which means it resets the Law of Resistance and renders that meaningless too. Have you healed so much with WoN that you're now looking at an impossible to hit +16 DC, and you need more healing? You can simply take the base utterance, add +4, and treat it as a brand new one to effectively start over. Functionally, you've subtracted -12 from your DC for no investment at all. It renders not just one but both Laws meaningless. No, I can't possibly agree with this reading being intended, whatever you say.

[Snowbluff]

Tome of Magic, page 234, lines 1-3. It literally states this as the case. The laws are immediately after the rules about altering Utterance level. Unless you are arguing the author has an attention span of 3 paragraphs, I think this might be entirely intended.

Oh wait... this is truenaming. It is possible the author was actually several monkeys and a typewriter.

[Steward]

Has there ever been an official or unofficial explanation for why that particular chapter was so badly edited? I mean, there are obviously many dysfunctional rules in the books but the Truenamer is the only one that I've seen where they left out the mechanics for a full 1/3rd of the class and had to release it later as an errata (which to me is the game design equivalent of making a car without an accelerator or publishing a book without any binding to hold the pages together).

Anyway, about the Law of Sequence...

Are you guys talking about this part?


It's also okay ot use a higher-level version of an utterance while a lower-level version is active, or vice versa, because these constitute different utterances

If so, I always interpreted that line in the lens of the next paragraph, which says that you could use both "lesser word of nurturing" and "minor word of nurturing" (two different levels of word of nurturing). I never thought that that it meant that you could just voluntarily negate the LoS by increasing the DC.

The word choice does seem to be relevant. In the Law of Sequence paragraph, it uses the phrase, "higher-level version of an utterance" to refer to the distinction between minor and lesser words of nurturing, and in the other paragraph they talk about "effective spell level of an utterance".

To me, those are supposed to be distinct concepts -- it's like the difference between the arcane spells "Magic Weapon" and "Greater Magic Weapon" vs. the difference between "Fireball" and "Fireball, modified with a Maximized Spell metamagic feat". I would consider "Greater Magic Weapon" to be a different version of "Magic Weapon", while "Fireball" and "metamagic'd Fireball" are just the same spell with the spell levels modified.

[Snowbluff]

I would consider "Greater Magic Weapon" to be a different version of "Magic Weapon", while "Fireball" and "metamagic'd Fireball" are just the same spell with the spell levels modified.

Lesser Word of Nurturing is supposed to be a different Utterance (not level of utterance), like GMW and MW. If it was meant to be otherwise, that was lost in the writing. I mostly follow a similiar line of logic you have here for the conclusion above, except we would mean Heightened Fireball for maximum parity.

It's entirely possible the guy was writing convoluted crap, because all of the most complicated systems prior (Spells, Psionics) were the most successful. I really could speculate all day on why this is.

[Steward]

Lesser Word of Nurturing is supposed to be a different Utterance (not level of utterance), like GMW and MW. If it was meant to be otherwise, that was lost in the writing. I mostly follow a similiar line of logic you have here for the conclusion above, except we would mean Heightened Fireball for maximum parity.

The paragraph below doesn't seem to say that though.

Here's what it says:


For example, you could speak a 2nd-level lesser word of nurturing utterance on one ally, then target another ally with a 1st-level minor word of nurturing utterance.

This sentence comes immediately after the one that says, "it's also okay to use a higher-level version of an utterance while a lower-level version is active", which leads me to believe that they intended to mean that '2nd-level lesser word of nurturing' is a higher-level version of '1st-level minor word of nurturing', thus bypassing the Law of Sequence.

(The section on equivalent spell level is located on the previous page and sounds like it's talking about a different concept, basically caster levels for truenamers. If I cast fireball normally and then cast fireball at a +1 caster level for whatever reason (feat, class feature, racial bonus, etc.), it's basically the same spell -- it's not a different spell.

Similarly, if I use 'minor word of nurturing' and later on 'minor word of nurturing with a higher DC', those are the same utterance. Raising the DC is just like boosting the caster level or applying a metamagic feat; it's not the equivalent of casting a spell of a higher level that happens to have a similar name, like 'Magic Weapon' vs. 'Greater Magic Weapon' or 'Cure Light Wounds' vs. 'Cure Moderate Wounds').



It's entirely possible the guy was writing convoluted crap, because all of the most complicated systems prior (Spells, Psionics) were the most successful. I really could speculate all day on why this is.

It's just a badly written chapter in my opinion. Forget the game balance issues, it doesn't even look like it was copy-edited. I can definitely see why there's ambiguity here. It reminds me of the classic Order of the Stick strip about, 'up a level'/'down a level' -- I really think the author intended that the 'equivalent spell level' and the 'higher-level version' concepts be treated as distinct, but the jumbled and cluttered writing and organization and class design are so bad that it's really up to the reader how they interpret it.

[Snowbluff]

It's just a badly written chapter in my opinion. Forget the game balance issues, it doesn't even look like it was copy-edited. I can definitely see why there's ambiguity here. It reminds me of the classic Order of the Stick strip about, 'up a level'/'down a level' -- I really think the author intended that the 'equivalent spell level' and the 'higher-level version' concepts be treated as distinct, but the jumbled and cluttered writing and organization and class design are so bad that it's really up to the reader how they interpret it.
I think the author might have been entirely unfamiliar with the material of 3.5. GMW is not a higher level version of MW. The lesser Word of Nurture isn't a lower level version of anything in the game rules, so then entire term use is beyond a misnomer. This is true for Utterances as well. For this not to be the case, the Utterances would need to be considered the same across all levels. If this were the case, they would actually need the example given.

Also, CL is a gross example on this subject. CL is very different from spell level. It's a huge difference, and you need to understand that. Heightened Color Spray qualifies as a second level spell for PrCs and feats. A CL 3 Color Spray is worth relatively little, since CL requirements are rare and usually start at five.

[Zaq]

It's bizarrely written. The whole "higher level/lower level" thing is a point of contention and always has been, and given that the book actually got errata already, we're never going to hear squat from WotC.

By the strictest RAW, yes, you can twiddle the effective levels up and down and skirt the LoS. In my mind, that's on par with Monks going "how do I shot unarmed strike" and being unable to see the sun. But it's there by strict RAW, much as I think it's unmitigated BS.

In practical terms, talk to your GM. If your GM wants you to be less inhibited with the LoS, see if they'll just tweak it or remove it. If your GM wants you to be bound by the LoS, then saying "but look at this obvious glitch in the RAW!" is, honestly, not likely to win you any favor, any more than "but RAW says salt is a trade good that can be used like gold!" is likely to get him or her to say "well, I was going to crack down on you using Flesh to Salt for money hax, but I guess it's okay, then."

I'm sure that somewhere out there, there's a GM who is okay with using the level-twiddling nonsense but not with relaxing the LoS itself. Personally, I'd be wary of playing under that GM. That mindset is alien to me, and I feel like it's likely to cause weird problems elsewhere if applied consistently. Enforce the LoS or relax the LoS, but having a strategy hinging on an obvious loophole in one of the worst-written documents to bear the WotC name is . . . obtuse, in my mind.

If you're discussing theory and therefore don't have a GM to consult, then just decide ahead of time if you're going to adhere to the LoS or skirt it. It's a question that's basically settled as unsettled; the RAW is there, and it's not especially productive to argue RAI. No one's mind will be changed. Just pick a position for a specific situation and stick with it. In my guide, I take the position that the Law is the Law, and I assume that a GM will smack down the loophole. I also acknowledge that the glitch exists, but when I'm describing your utterances and your tactics, I'm assuming that you only get one shot at each utterance until it runs out. I acknowledge that the glitch exists, but you won't convince me to act like it's a good idea to assume access to it.

The Truenamer chapter was poorly done. Honestly, it looks like it was just plain rushed, in that it really seems like a rough draft in a lot of ways. (The monster section is revealing to me, but I digress.) Playing a Truenamer requires working with your GM even without shenanigans. I don't see much gain in trying to outsmart the rules or the GM, at least in this regard.

[Psyren]

By the strictest RAW, yes, you can twiddle the effective levels up and down and skirt the LoS. In my mind, that's on par with Monks going "how do I shot unarmed strike" and being unable to see the sun. But it's there by strict RAW, much as I think it's unmitigated BS.

And drowning to heal; agreed.

And yeah, skirting the LoS in this way can also be used to skirt the LoR as I noted. It's horrible editing, nothing more.