Dual wielding question 3.5

[Teapot Salty]

Hey guys. Since I found out that higher level characters get multiple attacks (I found out about a minute ago, thanks to eggynack for answering) I was wondering, If I have standerd, improved, greater and perfect TWF, and I where a 20th level barbarian (or fighter, or ranger or really anything that gets full BAB) would I get seven (or six, my math is kinda iffy today) attacks with my off hand? Four from perfect, one from greater, one from improved and one because of the extra weapon? And also If I were a 20th level barbarian, weilding two weapons with no feats, I get four attacks from my primary and one from my secondary? As always, go nuts.

[weckar]

First off, Perfect TWF is an Epic feat, so you wouldn't be able to have it.

[Teapot Salty]

First off, Perfect TWF is an Epic feat, so you wouldn't be able to have it.

Touche. For the sake of argument, lets say I can. Although, how do you get epic feats?

[weckar]

Either be an Epic Character (over CL 20) or be a Dragon.

[Teapot Salty]

Either be an Epic Character (over CL 20) or be a Dragon.

So if I was a 20th level barbarian and a first level rogue I would be epic?

[eggynack]

Four. One from each of improved, greater, and perfect, and a base one from hitting with an off-hand weapon. Perfect just says that you get to make a certain number of off-hand attacks. I don't think there's an implication that it's additive. Also, yes, a barbarian with no feats and two weapons would get five attacks, though they would have pretty hefty penalties.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You normally get to make one extra attack when fighting with two weapons, but you take penalties to all of your attacks for doing so. Two-Weapon Fighting reduces those penalties.

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting adds an additional attack when fighting with two weapons, at a reduced bonus to hit.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting also adds an additional attack when fighting with two weapons, again at a reduced bonus to hit.

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectTwoWeaponFighting) overrides and replaces the normal number of offhand attacks you would get with a set value equal to the number of attacks you make with your primary weapon.

For example, if you have a +20 BAB for three extra iterative attacks (20/15/10/5), Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) for an additional attack, and Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) for yet another attack, you're making six attacks with your primary weapon. Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to make an equal number of offhand attacks, which in this case would be six.

[ngilop]

Perfect two wepaon fighting gives you as many attacks with your off hand as you get with your main hand, that means no other things considered.

SO you get 4 with your main hand and 4 with your off hand

with a feat that gives you an addtional attack NOW you get 5 and 5 haste brings that up again. etc etc

Perfect two weapon fighitng in effect replaces greater two weapon fighting. the feats do not stack with eah other

no feat gives you 1 attack, the improved gives you 2 attacks and greater gives you 3 attacks

[weckar]

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectTwoWeaponFighting) overrides and replaces the normal number of offhand attacks you would get with a set value equal to the number of attacks you make with your primary weapon.

I'd agree with you, were it not that it calls out the lower bonuses in the [normal] section. I'd say it may be additive.

[Teapot Salty]

You normally get to make one extra attack when fighting with two weapons, but you take penalties to all of your attacks for doing so. Two-Weapon Fighting reduces those penalties.

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting adds an additional attack when fighting with two weapons, at a reduced bonus to hit.

Greater Two-Weapon Fighting also adds an additional attack when fighting with two weapons, again at a reduced bonus to hit.

Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectTwoWeaponFighting) overrides and replaces the normal number of offhand attacks you would get with a set value equal to the number of attacks you make with your primary weapon.

For example, if you have a +20 BAB for three extra iterative attacks (20/15/10/5), Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm) for an additional attack, and Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) for yet another attack, you're making six attacks with your primary weapon. Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to make an equal number of offhand attacks, which in this case would be six.
Ohhhh. Well then that's not nearly as op as I thought it was. Anyway thank you everybody.

[eggynack]

I'd agree with you, were it not that it calls out the lower bonuses in the [normal] section. I'd say it may be additive.
That's not really an implication that the normal section is making. It's saying that you normally get this many attacks, either one, two, or three, and now you get this many attacks, which is as many as you get with your main hand.

[weckar]

Fact is that it lists them separately, implying that the bonus drifts aside from the perfect feat.

[Vhaidara]

Not really. Notmal states: without this feat, you get this. While Benefit states: with this feat, you get this.

So, if you have the feat, read from benefit. If you don't, read from normal.

[eggynack]

Fact is that it lists them separately, implying that the bonus drifts aside from the perfect feat.
Actually, it's the exact opposite of that. The normal section there means that the bonus from PTWF replaces the normal single attack from TWF, or the two attacks from ITWF, or the three attacks from GTWF. The thing in the normal section is what is overwritten. Were the thing about the TWF feats not there, there would be some implication that those feats are not being replaced, but it is there, so it is replaced. I'd argue against the idea of stacking even were those things not listed in the normal section, because those feats talk about the extra off-hand attacks as second and third attacks instead of as "extra attacks", but this just makes the way it works even more clear.

[weckar]

Shmeh... I suppose I really shouldn't be trying to do this at 5am. Sorry for the interruption everybody!

[Teapot Salty]

Shmeh... I suppose I really shouldn't be trying to do this at 5am. Sorry for the interruption everybody!

You must live super far east for it to be 5am where you live(unless your being sarcastic, I really can't tell over the internet).



Anyway, I think my dm would prefer if it the attacks didn't stack with each other but I'm curious if you guys will find out which way the rules say it does.

[eggynack]

Anyway, I think my dm would prefer if it the attacks didn't stack with each other but I'm curious if you guys will find out which way the rules say it does.
I don't think there's really any current opposition to the idea that these things do not stack. It all seems pretty cut and dry to me. It is a rare thing in rules arguments sometimes, but it happens.

[weckar]

No, they are right. They don't stack. And I wasn't being sarcastic. The internet IS a worldwide thing, you know.

[Teapot Salty]

I don't think there's really any current opposition to the idea that these things do not stack. It all seems pretty cut and dry to me. It is a rare thing in rules arguments sometimes, but it happens.

Ya I suppose your right, It's always interesting when you see two opinions try to reason with one another. You almost always learn something.