Why are Uberchargers not considered high Tier?

[Abbul]

I don't know how much optimization is factored into the Tier system, but I just don't see how they're considered weak (for any class compatible for this type build). I mean, sure the buffs from casters and the magic items certainly help, but it is difficult to think of how most encounters can get around one.

The reason I'm posting this is I set up a 27-28 or 29 CR Dragon with all sorts of thought and a few little extra abilities, against a group of 6 level 20s. He was a huge boss in the campaign (second to last main).

He had 51 AC and a 50% miss chance with 1,092 health (I gave him max hp). He had a Prismatic Wall in front of him and Black Tentacles on the ceiling above the wall.

The Ubercharger (Elf Fighter 10, Barbarian 8, FB 1, Ranger 1) with medium-medium high optimization passed all 7 checks of the wall, missed her leap attack, used her belt of battle with pounce, and dropped him on the first round. Her charge triggered his Contigency + Celerity + Time Stop shenanigans, and it did not a thing to stop her.

[Grim Portent]

Because the high tiers aren't about damage. They're about flexibility and power. A sorcerer, wizard or cleric can remake the world with just a few spells, an Ubercharger can hit things. Sure that thing will be dead, but that's not a wide repertoire of skills.

[weckar]

There is nothing that says that low tier characters can't be effective at what they do. Unfortunately, that's the ONLY thing they do.

[eggynack]

Because they just do high damage, and pretty inconsistently at that. Your individual anecdotal results, which seem odd, don't really make the plan consistent. I mean, really, it sounds like she got lucky, and like the dragon wasn't really using its stuff to the fullest potential. I mean, what was the dragon even doing with its extra rounds? Really, though, it comes down to the only damage thing. A barbarian can take down a single monster. A wizard can take down entire towns, cities, and civilizations. Casters have options.

What does this barbarian do when she needs to go really far away or to another plane in a hurry? What does she do when she needs to sneak into a place that's hard to sneak into? What does she do when she needs to deal with an army? There really aren't many answers. Casters have answers to all of these problems and more. This barbarian can do exactly one thing, which is hitting enemies when there's a clear path. Any class that can be stopped by a waist-high fence doesn't deserve to be high tier.

Edit: Have you actually read the tier system for classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293) by the by? It seems like it answers this question in a pretty reasonable manner.

[fryplink]

In 3.5, most everyone has the power to make something dead when they can employ their most ready means of making things dead. This seems obvious, but ranking classes on their ability to makes things dead in their chosen field is silly. Every point of damage beyond the lethal point is useless. Thus, it's better to measure classes by the number of avenues they can take to make something dead/disabled/solved.

After a certain threshold of power (that everyone above the middle of tier four meets), tier and power are expressed as flexibility and options over brute damage. Every class tier 4 and above can resolve a level appropriate encounter that is fitted to their strengths, thus measuring strength between classes that are functional in play (ie, not tier 5,6 and 0) is a matter to answer the question "how many different situations can they fix?" not "How well can they fix their situation?". This happens because most classes can fix at least some situations well enough, and comparing degrees of fixedness when dead/alive is often the criteria is silly.

Sure Ubercharger can deal 800 damage a round, but when you only need 300 damage dealt and you need those 300 points airbourne, Mr. Ubercharger is useless, despite his power. Meanwhile, Sally the Sorcerer can ground the target (where ubercharger can hit him), or deal 300 damage over two rounds (or one if it's the mailman), or allow Mr. Ubercharger to fly, or summon a flyer, or teleport you away from it, or banish it to another dimension or any of a number of other things that solve the problem. Sally can also solve out of combat problems, upgrade party members and be quite suave while doing it. Mr. Ubercharger is only able to hit things with a stick. He's quite good at it to be sure, but he does way more damage than is needed, and should have traded some of it for a bit of versatility.

[Endarire]

It depends on what you mean by "ubercharger." Hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0) is an ubercharger, but a variable build concept. The super high damage, mobility, and number of attacks alone make her tier 3. It's the ability to, say, fashion a Whisper Gnome Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage into a Hood that makes her much more versatile.

Having played a generalist Wizard from level 1 to 10 (going on 11), I've found the following to be quite useful:

Charm person
Web
Evard's black tentacles
Improved invisibility
Alter self/draconic polymorph

This is if I'm going at an enemy myself. I've used a lesser planar binding to get a Mirror Mephit (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) to make a simulacrum of another Mirror Mephit. I then used this sim Mephit to make more simulacrums of Mirror Mephits, Efreet, and Solars. I used caster level boosters to get more hit dice from my sims. Each sim Solar can cast as a level 20 Cleric. I'm only level 10 now. With, say, 4 sim Solars, I can deal a lot of damage to the Hells and the Abyss. I don't have to go with them, but I choose to since it's more fun that way and I get EXP.

Damage is useful. Verstability and damage is better. I used a Hood to deal ~400 damage to something with ~20 HP. Simulacrum at least 1/day is where my tier 1 status starts to emerge.

[Ziegander]

missed her leap attack, used her belt of battle with pounce, and dropped him on the first round. Her charge triggered his Contigency + Celerity + Time Stop shenanigans, and it did not a thing to stop her.

How did this work exactly?

So she charged and missed? Then the dragon had some crazy Contingent + Celerity shenanigans with Time Stop? So what exactly happened there, and how could that not stop the charger flat, especially after she had just missed with her charge?

Also, can you even charge into/through a Prismatic Wall/Sphere? The wall is opaque, and to charge a creature, you need to have line of sight. I don't think you can. Anyway, let's assume you waived that requirement.

How did she "use her belt of battle with pounce" to drop the dragon at all? if she's already charged and missed, she's right up in the dragon's grill with her melee weapon in hand. You can't normally back up and then charge again in the same turn, not unless the first charge was with reach, then you 5ft stepped back, and then charged without the benefit of reach.

And even if you somehow were able to get that second charge+pounce off, how are you acting at all, if the dragon had cast Time Stop? If the charge set off the contingency, that happens before anything else the charger is able to do (at least without other contingency weirdness), and so the Time Stop would stop the charger from acting and allow the dragon to do whatever it wants for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Seriously, you couldn't think of anything for a CR 27 minimum dragon to do with that time that would thwart an ubercharger? You're casting as, at minimum, a 17th level Sorcerer here. You can rip the world wide open. A simple Mirror Image would have been just about all the protection you'd have needed against an Ubercharger, but there's so, so much more you could have done.

What the heck happened here?

[Big Fau]

There are days when you need a hammer, then there are days when you need a crowbar. And then there are days when you need to bend reality over your knee and violate four dozen of it's orifices with raw arcane power.


Chargers are the hammer.

[Alent]

How did this work exactly?

So she charged and missed? Then the dragon had some crazy Contingent + Celerity shenanigans with Time Stop? So what exactly happened there, and how could that not stop the charger flat, especially after she had just missed with her charge?

...

and so the Time Stop would stop the charger from acting and allow the dragon to do whatever it wants for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. Seriously, you couldn't think of anything for a CR 27 minimum dragon to do with that time that would thwart an ubercharger? You're casting as, at minimum, a 17th level Sorcerer here. You can rip the world wide open. A simple Mirror Image would have been just about all the protection you'd have needed against an Ubercharger, but there's so, so much more you could have done.

What the heck happened here?

Seriously. "I have 1+1d4 turns to grapple you, before I fly out of my lair and take you six miles into the sky before dropping you as punishment" sounds like a good start.

... Taking one step to the right sounds like a baseline minimum.

But as said earlier, the Tier system is about versatility. Damage competence is assumed as the lowest level of competence, being able to rip holes in reality and turn yourself into a planet is where high level tier 1's dare to tread.

[Zetapup]

Chargers and most fighters only have options in combat, unless they specifically invest into being useful in certain situations outside of combat. There's even times when they have to invest to be useful in combat too. For example, take a wizard and a fighter going against a dragon. The fighter invested his feats into doing lots of damage/tripping/charging/whatever else but these abilities don't come into play because the dragon can just fly out of reach and cast spells or breathe on the fighter. The fighter can plink away at the dragon with a bow, but it's not going to be very useful since the fighter hasn't invested in the bow at all. Now let's look at the wizard. Fly, teleport, dimension door, spells with range... the wizard has a lot of options. Even if they flub up on spell prep the day before, they can teleport away, rest for a while, and come back with spells specifically designed to wipe out the dragon.

TLDR; fighters/lower tier classes have to invest to be remotely useful in any field outside their narrow focus whereas wizards/higher tier classes can be useful in any scenario with some prep. Without prep, they'll still be more useful than a fighter 9 times out of 10.

[Theomniadept]

Please keep in mind that everything tier 4 and above can technically be broken. An Ubercharger can in fact do 9001 damage a turn, but that's a specific build. What happens when the goal is not to kill?

How does an ubercharger live without food or water? How does he make allies? How does he do anything other than kill things?

Wizard can do everything forever in the most efficient and uncounterable way possible.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Luck and a poorly executed response killed your dragon, not the immense power of uberchargeness.

Let's say this was a greatwyrm red, since you didn't specify. The DC's of his prismatic wall would've been 26 vs the charger's fort: yes, ref: +13, will +13 at probable maximum.

The sequence goes ref, ref, ref, fort, fort, will, will. FB >3 means hp damage is irrelevant so we don't need those first three, then a 5% chance of death which was probably converted to 1d6 con damage, then 5% chance of turning to stone, then a 60% chance of going insane, and another 60% chance to be plane-shifted. The odds of making it through all four of the final layers was only about 14%. Any -one- of them could've stopped him cold. Even throwing out insanity for not stopping him immediately it was only about a 1:3 shot and either way that's being generous. He did something reckless and it payed off.

Even then, the contingent celerity to timestop combo should've made it irrelevant. A simple wall of force or resilient sphere would've put him to a -cold- stop. Invisible, unbreakable barrier says, "no, you do not charge the dragon." Or a web, or any of a pile of options that could've made charging impossible, or even simply moving to the other side of the battlefield so that his buddies were in the way. The dragon, in not doing something more solid to prevent the charge, made an immense tactical error. It's his own fault he's dead more than it is the barbarian elf that put an axe in his head.

[Ziegander]

But seriously though, setting aside the luck required to survive those four final layers of doom, I don't see how any of this works.

Is it even possible to charge through a Prismatic Wall to attack a creature on the other side?

How does she "charge again" using Belt of Battle? That doesn't appear to work.

How does she do anything at all during the 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time that the dragon has gained via Time Stop?

[eggynack]

Turn one of time stop: Bwa ha ha, you puny barbarian. You cannot stand against the might of my magic.

Turn two of time stop: To humiliate you, I shall cast a silent image, and it shall be your decayed corpse after I inevitably destroy you. Cower in your barbarian uselessness.

Turn three of time stop: I shall now sing an ode to how amazing I am.
Oh, dragons are so amazing.
We cast spells all the time.
Barbarians are all stupid.
Stupid stupid stupid stupid.
This song is an example of my greatness,
and also of your failure.
Because barbarians are so stupid.
They're the stupidest class around.

And then the time stop ended.

[Theomniadept]

To be honest, dragons should never engage in melee. Seriously, if your dragon isn't circle-strafing and burning/freezing/shocking/dissolving the ranged weapon users and casters then you are doing it wrong.

Dragons have triple treasure and the ability to fly, cast magic, and possibly swim or burrow. Also, they lay eggs and nest with younger ones. Dragons would despise caves and the like, preferring to fly because, get this, caves are inherently bad to a dragon's nature. You make those players earn that treasure.

Uberchargers are nice if they get the drop on a dragon. Against an aware dragon they're dead.

[weckar]

Yet, most dragons tend to make their lairs in caves... Mostly because the entrance is easily defended with a single bottlenecked breath attack.

[JaronK]

I don't know how much optimization is factored into the Tier system, but I just don't see how they're considered weak (for any class compatible for this type build). I mean, sure the buffs from casters and the magic items certainly help, but it is difficult to think of how most encounters can get around one.

I can make an ubercharger at level 20 with a Commoner. Since the tiers are about classes, not everything else, the simple fact that a class CAN be turned into an ubercharger is irrelevant.

As for how encounters can get around uberchargers, how about... anything that stops charging? For example, terrain. Any terrain really. A few tree stumps. Some mud. More flat open plains than the charger can cover in one round. Some mist. Anything that creates difficult terrain or screws with line of sight or otherwise makes charging not work. Other options include "stuff that flies" if you're of a level where the charger can't do so. Also, non combat encounters usually preclude charging as a useful strategy.

A higher tier implies ability to deal with obstacles like "some mud" trivially... it means you can control the world around you more than that.


The reason I'm posting this is I set up a 27-28 or 29 CR Dragon with all sorts of thought and a few little extra abilities, against a group of 6 level 20s. He was a huge boss in the campaign (second to last main).

Okay, so he's flying (if the charger can't fly, game over). Likewise, if it's in a cave with difficult terrain and traps and the like, the charger will be in real trouble. Even casting Silent Image to make it look like the dragon is ahead, tricking the charger into running forward into a trap... that works too.


He had 51 AC and a 50% miss chance with 1,092 health (I gave him max hp). He had a Prismatic Wall in front of him and Black Tentacles on the ceiling above the wall.

Okay, that's a relatively decent start I guess, but why did he give up the initiative?


The Ubercharger (Elf Fighter 10, Barbarian 8, FB 1, Ranger 1) with medium-medium high optimization passed all 7 checks of the wall, missed her leap attack, used her belt of battle with pounce, and dropped him on the first round. Her charge triggered his Contigency + Celerity + Time Stop shenanigans, and it did not a thing to stop her.

Why didn't the dragon just, you know, move out of the way during that Time Stop? If he's so high CR, you'd think he might have thought of "I move 15' to the left" as a clever counter. And then he could have thrown up a wall of force or something.

It sounds like your problem is you weren't aware of all the options your dragon had here.

JaronK

[Oko and Qailee]

Seriously. "I have 1+1d4 turns to grapple you, before I fly out of my lair and take you six miles into the sky before dropping you as punishment" sounds like a good start.


Quick comment on this. You cannot grapple during timestop because it requires an attack roll and time stop explicitly says you cannot make attacks.



Stuff

Don't forget fatigue and exhaustion also prevent charging. Waves of Fatigue would easily stop charger builds as it doesn't allow for a save.

[Alent]

Quick comment on this. You cannot grapple during timestop because it requires an attack roll and time stop explicitly says you cannot make attacks.

Ah, I wasn't thinking of the grapple check as an attack. Good catch.

[Drachasor]

Oh, I would have just had the Dragon cast ANOTHER Prismatic Wall, then move. That would be hilarious. No way the Charger gets to stop since he can't see that Dragon moved, though I suppose an Illusion might be necessary.

Or the Dragon could have made a bunch of summons to surround the charger.

Or any of the dozen things.

In any case no way that Charge should have gotten off, and the Pounce seems just wrong unless we are missing a teleport or something -- and even then, why didn't the Dragon trip the charger or something with an AoO?

I'd say we should assume Free Action and Flight on the Charger, except he didn't fly over the Prismatic Wall.

anyhow...the problem here is the dragon was poorly run, primarily. The hit points being a bad defense in D&D and rocket tag are minor issues comparatively (but not unimportant).

[Firechanter]

I've found that a more sustainable strategy for Chargers is to optimize their charge only to the point where it can reliably oneshot any ~conceivable~ opponent, i.e. within their CR range, without a lot of overkill.
You don't need a damage output Over Nine Thousand when the toughest bugger in the book has less than 1000hp. Invest your remaining resources elsewhere, to be more versatile and not stopped as easily.

[Drachasor]

I've found that a more sustainable strategy for Chargers is to optimize their charge only to the point where it can reliably oneshot any ~conceivable~ opponent, i.e. within their CR range, without a lot of overkill.
You don't need a damage output Over Nine Thousand when the toughest bugger in the book has less than 1000hp. Invest your remaining resources elsewhere, to be more versatile and not stopped as easily.

But if you do over 9000, then you get to Meme it up! Isn't that its own reward?

[Abbul]

I guess I ran the dragon pretty poorly. Here's what happened: rogue has been infiltrating the "Great Dragon's" cult for about 3 weeks, discovering war is coming. She finally met him at one of the cult's bases when she reached that point in her initiation. She found out he was going to be in this fairly large room that really isn't optimal for a dragon, for a few days. I should have prepared for it better certainly, but she was able to sneak away back to her group for the first time in weeks. Then her group buffed up big time, and she used her boots of teleport.

I had Foresight on the dragon, so he was already in battle stance (I'm no expert at all on casters so I didn't know what all he could get out of this). The charger went first and as he charged at her I had his contingency go off. He used celerity and then time stop.

I assumed the prismatic wall would be way better and stop her. I also don't fully know the limits of time stop with offensive spells (knowing they aren't intended to be allowed seemingly). So he buffed himself up and set up the wall and a couple black tentacles. I fully did not expect anyone to be going through the wall so I didn't set up additional road blocks.

I figured since he did all his stuff during her turn it would not affect what she was already doing (maybe I was wrong). So I let her stay course on her charge expecting regret, but much to my dismay she passed all 7 checks in a row and I have no idea how she had that kind of luck.

She then missed the leap attack but kept going with her full attack thanks to Pounce. Then she used her belt of battle to finish off her round in addition to the pounce. Then I rolled like absolute crap with the 50% miss chance. She landed 2 crits and a few normal hard hits.

Also, she has air walk always on her boots (used the cloudwalker anklets as a base). I assume that allows the user to charge in the air, but perhaps that's wrong. It was irrelevant in this situation though because I foolishly did not give him a perch in this room as it was not his actual lair.

I intended for the group to futilely waste their first round, then he was gonna blast them with his 70' cone of Greater Stunning Breath with a 45 DC for 2d4 rounds and bam done. I warned them he was really hard and they would know plenty of his legend. I wanted to use him with his cult to at least take one step in their plans and destroy this nearby city.

Well, all it took was one character to do all the discovery of stuff and getting in, some buffs, and one charge.

But, I concede that I probably should have used his time stop better. I just felt like the wall would save him and his best bet would be attack next round.

[CombatOwl]

I don't know how much optimization is factored into the Tier system, but I just don't see how they're considered weak (for any class compatible for this type build). I mean, sure the buffs from casters and the magic items certainly help, but it is difficult to think of how most encounters can get around one.

The reason I'm posting this is I set up a 27-28 or 29 CR Dragon with all sorts of thought and a few little extra abilities, against a group of 6 level 20s. He was a huge boss in the campaign (second to last main).

He had 51 AC and a 50% miss chance with 1,092 health (I gave him max hp). He had a Prismatic Wall in front of him and Black Tentacles on the ceiling above the wall.

The Ubercharger (Elf Fighter 10, Barbarian 8, FB 1, Ranger 1) with medium-medium high optimization passed all 7 checks of the wall, missed her leap attack, used her belt of battle with pounce, and dropped him on the first round. Her charge triggered his Contigency + Celerity + Time Stop shenanigans, and it did not a thing to stop her.

I find it hard to believe your DM effectively used contingency + celerity + time stop and it didn't stop you. At the very least, the forthcoming wall (of ice, force, stone, whatever) should have done it.


I assumed the prismatic wall would be way better and stop her. I also don't fully know the limits of time stop with offensive spells (knowing they aren't intended to be allowed seemingly). So he buffed himself up and set up the wall and a couple black tentacles. I fully did not expect anyone to be going through the wall so I didn't set up additional road blocks.

Prismatic Wall should never be considered an obstruction. It's best used offensively. Prismatic Sphere can be considered an obstruction, for spells only.

The best use of Prismatic Wall/Sphere comes when you have ways to force them to make the checks repeatedly by forcing movement through the wall.

[Piggy Knowles]

It's been brought up a few times, but as far as I can see, your charger actually couldn't have charged in that instance. In addition to the wall causing lots of saving throws, there's this fun little aspect to the charging rules:


You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). Here’s what it means to have a clear path. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. (If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can’t charge.) Second, if any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge. (Helpless creatures don’t stop a charge.)

A vertical, opaque wall that destroys all creatures and objects would certainly count as an obstacle in my book, and therefore should have broken the charge.

Additionally, don't forget that you cannot charge if you do not have line of sight to your enemy at the start of your turn. Because the wall went up via contingency, it doesn't necessarily make a difference in this case, but it's something to keep in mind. A prismatic wall is an opaque wall and blocks line of sight, so even if the barbarian knows where the dragon is, she can't charge unless she actually has line of sight to it.

[Abbul]

Ah I see. I figured if you're already charging and a colorful wall you simply run through appears on your way you'd be alright.

[HammeredWharf]

Also, she has air walk always on her boots (used the cloudwalker anklets as a base). I assume that allows the user to charge in the air, but perhaps that's wrong. It was irrelevant in this situation though because I foolishly did not give him a perch in this room as it was not his actual lair.


Air Walk doesn't let you charge upwards. "The subject can tread on air as if walking on solid ground. Moving upward is similar to walking up a hill. The maximum upward or downward angle possible is 45 degrees, at a rate equal to one-half the air walker’s normal speed. " is what it says. Since charging specifies that "nothing can hinder your movement", you can't charge upwards with the anklets. So yes, simply flying up a bit would essentially neutralize the charger for a few rounds. It sounds like you had the dragon in a cave where it couldn't maneuver well enough, but that just means your encounter was easier than it should've been.

[Spuddles]

It's been brought up a few times, but as far as I can see, your charger actually couldn't have charged in that instance. In addition to the wall causing lots of saving throws, there's this fun little aspect to the charging rules:



A vertical, opaque wall that destroys all creatures and objects would certainly count as an obstacle in my book, and therefore should have broken the charge.

Additionally, don't forget that you cannot charge if you do not have line of sight to your enemy at the start of your turn. Because the wall went up via contingency, it doesn't necessarily make a difference in this case, but it's something to keep in mind. A prismatic wall is an opaque wall and blocks line of sight, so even if the barbarian knows where the dragon is, she can't charge unless she actually has line of sight to it.

Yet prismatic wall does not slow or block movement. An argument could be made that breaking LoS as impeded vision slows you, but that's not very clear in the text. Arguing that charging through a wall that could kill you counts as an impediment makes as much sense as saying you cant charge through a threatened square because the AoO might kill you.

[vhfforever]

Since the question about tiers not simply being judged by damage has been answered, I'll just chime in a few more cents. Gust of Wind would have been hilarious on a wind walking crazy person who, when frenzied, just goes murderous on everything around her. Grease is funny too, since she doesn't get a check for it, and plenty of other things could have stopped a frenzied crazy murderer in a cave coming at a dragon.

I'd say if you ran it again, but took into account all of the options at hand for the dragon, instead of getting taken off guard by what could be used in time stop, things would go vastly different the second time around.

[Incanur]

As this thread indicates, charges can be pretty easy to prevent as long as the combatants are aware of things like difficult terrain, slowed movement, etc. On the other hand, at level 20 PCs can usually circumvent such impediments. High-level 3.x combat requires tremendous skill to play effectively. I never want to run a high-level 3.x game again, honestly. There's just too much going on.

However, I say you should be happy with how the encounter went. Regardless of the RAW and tier system, charging through a prismatic wall to slay the BBEG dragon is awesome. That strikes me as exactly what should be happening in a game of D&D. :smallsmile:

As DM, I've also had a great wrym go down before I expected. As powerful as dragons are, you've got to put a lot of work into making them potent enough to stand solo against large party, especially past level 17 or so.

Because of just how much damage uberchargers can do, I think there's merit to including one such character in even an optimized party - at least if the campaign is focused on combat. No, the charger can't contribute buffs or silver bullets or prep, but omg can they kill things, especially with a little support. And they're handy in dead magic zones, antimagic fields, and whatnot.

[Eldariel]

Honestly, if the Dragon had e.g. Delay Death or Wings of Cover or some such it could've shrugged off the attacks. The fact that it had a Time Stop and a Celerity (that's 2 rounds and 1 standard action minimum), and it somehow managed to die, meant Darwin was probably knocking on the door. There are also items such as Scarab of Invulnerability which allow blocking all damage caused during a turn.

Overall tho, the Dragon's magic alone should've been more than enough to ensure that the hit never connects. The fact that the Dragon did indeed manage to die is a monumental feat.

[Abbul]

There was one funny part about the whole thing. There was a half dragon guy in the room to the side sitting down reading a book (the Great Dragon was turning the cultists into half dragons, which technically is very incorrect as it's an inherited template but oh well). In a span of about 6 seconds he saw the dragon rise up, a group of 6 people pop up, an elf begin charging forward, tons of spells emerging from the dragon really quickly, the elf finish the charge and attack super fast and drop this living legend.

I had them glance over as he dropped the book and his jaw. :P

The cultists decided not to mess with them.


Also, this is my first campaign to ever DM and the first time in a campaign to go over level 7. My own character in another campaign going on currently as well just hit level 13. Hopefully I can pick up some significant experience for high end stuff. Lots of stuff to wrap my head around when it comes to optimizing spell casters.

[Eldariel]

There was one funny part about the whole thing. There was a half dragon guy in the room to the side sitting down reading a book (the Great Dragon was turning the cultists into half dragons, which technically is very incorrect as it's an inherited template but oh well). In a span of about 6 seconds he saw the dragon rise up, a group of 6 people pop up, an elf begin charging forward, tons of spells emerging from the dragon really quickly, the elf finish the charge and attack super fast and drop this living legend.

I had them glance over as he dropped the book and his jaw. :P

The cultists decided not to mess with them.


Also, this is my first campaign to ever DM and the first time in a campaign to go over level 7. My own character in another campaign going on currently as well just hit level 13. Hopefully I can pick up some significant experience for high end stuff. Lots of stuff to wrap my head around when it comes to optimizing spell casters.

This is the same exact process I went through. I played a high level non-caster with high-level casters. Then someone made a charger, one-shot a Balor who wasn't being very smart and yeah, OP was cried everywhere and the character was retired.

Then we began learning a bit more about magic and noticing all the hilarious things you can do with it and overall, working with the system and suddenly the ability to one-shot a planet appeared insignificant compared to the power of the force.

If you want to play high levels, spells are the bread and butter of the game basically shaping what's possible and how, so at least a reasonable overall awareness of what you can do with them is recommended. Makes running those games and playing in them that much easier.

[Agincourt]

Honestly, if the Dragon had e.g. Delay Death or Wings of Cover or some such it could've shrugged off the attacks. The fact that it had a Time Stop and a Celerity (that's 2 rounds and 1 standard action minimum), and it somehow managed to die, meant Darwin was probably knocking on the door. There are also items such as Scarab of Invulnerability which allow blocking all damage caused during a turn.


Those two spells would not have necessarily stopped the charging character. Delay Death just means he's not dead at less than -9 hit points. Without another NPC to protect the dragon, it's just a matter of time until the PCs figure out another way to kill a helpless, unconscious dragon. Wing of Cover would have negated a single attack, but Abbul said the charging character had pounce and then activated the Belt of Battle for a full attack action. It's possible that negating a single attack would have left the dragon with just enough hit points to still be alive, but the bottom line is that the charger would have left it mortally wounded with all the other PCs turns to come.

[eggynack]

Those two spells would not have necessarily stopped the charging character. Delay Death just means he's not dead at less than -9 hit points. Without another NPC to protect the dragon, it's just a matter of time until the PCs figure out another way to kill a helpless, unconscious dragon.
I'm pretty sure that the usual thing you do is combine it with beastland ferocity, thus allowing you to ignore the dying condition.

[Drachasor]

Well, if they left the cultists alive, then the cultists can resurrect the dragon.

Next time use some simulacrums, muck up the terrain, and sharpen your strategy.

Oh, Dragons have Blindsight, btw. That means they can see in smoke -- most characters can NOT do this.

[eggynack]

Oh, Dragons have Blindsight, btw. That means they can see in smoke -- most characters can NOT do this.
If you're talking about standard true dragons, they only get blindsense. I know lung dragons from OA get blindsight, though I don't know if any others do. Also, a couple get true seeing, and there're a bunch of other vision modes hanging around as well.

[Drachasor]

If you're talking about standard true dragons, they only get blindsense. I know lung dragons from OA get blindsight, though I don't know if any others do. Also, a couple get true seeing, and there're a bunch of other vision modes hanging around as well.

Oops, my brain when somewhere odd. Though, that's still good enough to aim many spells.

I think I might have said that because I usually see them statted with Blind Fight and I'm tired. You can make them pretty effective in smokey areas. Toss on a Eversmoking bottle for funsies. It's a pretty small investment to add an effective low-resource strategy.

[Oko and Qailee]

However, I say you should be happy with how the encounter went. Regardless of the RAW and tier system, charging through a prismatic wall to slay the BBEG dragon is awesome. That strikes me as exactly what should be happening in a game of D&D. :smallsmile:


Agreed. Pretty awesome situation TBH.

Just make the cultistists revive the dragon and then have the dragon learn from his mistakes if yu aren't satisfied with the ending?

[TuggyNE]

Black tentacles right there automatically would have shut down the OP's charger, since it's difficult terrain. (Unless they had freedom of movement, in which case it is entirely useless and does nothing.)

[Sir Chuckles]

My verdict:
Let it slide for now, but don't explain why what happened should not have happened. Or the fact that there were more ways to stop it than there are hairs on your head (unless you're bald).

Reviving the dragon shouldn't take much more than an afterthought. Learning from your mistakes shouldn't take much ore than a skimming through this thread.

Next time, make them earn their triple standard CR29 treasure list.

[Abbul]

Black tentacles right there automatically would have shut down the OP's charger, since it's difficult terrain. (Unless they had freedom of movement, in which case it is entirely useless and does nothing.)

I assumed that would be overkill. I had high expectations for that wall.

I could have the dragon revived, but I am not a big fan of having huge plot point enemies die and then come back.

[Eldariel]

Those two spells would not have necessarily stopped the charging character. Delay Death just means he's not dead at less than -9 hit points. Without another NPC to protect the dragon, it's just a matter of time until the PCs figure out another way to kill a helpless, unconscious dragon. Wing of Cover would have negated a single attack, but Abbul said the charging character had pounce and then activated the Belt of Battle for a full attack action. It's possible that negating a single attack would have left the dragon with just enough hit points to still be alive, but the bottom line is that the charger would have left it mortally wounded with all the other PCs turns to come.

Yup. They wouldn't be my choice of defense if I had Celerity available; at that point you can just Teleport out if you got surprised and aren't prepared, or Time Stop into control or some such. 1v4 isn't good odds. Maybe Maximized Time Stop into a horde of Maximized Maws of Chaos; that could wipe the party but it's risky in case it doesn't.

Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity should probably be there tho. If it has Improved Spell Capacity for 10th level slot (or Improved Metamagic) plus Persistent Spell plus Rod of Reach Spell it can have both Persistent with relatively little investment. So they need to at least dispel his invulnerability before damage matters.

[JaronK]

Consider then having the Dragon in fact working as the figurehead of someone else. That someone else can revive the Dragon as a Zombie (see Draconomicon for special rules on Dragon Zombies) and give it intelligence again with Awaken Undead, so that now the final fight will be against this necromancer riding the Zombie Dragon. Could be fun.

JaronK

[Rejusu]

Given the challenge rating I'd guess this is a dragon with ninth level spells in which case the dragon has the most hilarious means of dealing with a charger available:

The planar holiday.

Step one: After time stop is triggered cast Gate. Make it one to one of the more unpleasant planes. Place it immediately in front of the charging barbarian.

Step two: Ready an action to close the gate the moment the barbarian has passed through.

Step three: Wait for time stop to end.

Step four: Watch as the barbarians momentum sends him through the portal right in front of him that to her eyes wasn't there a moment ago.

Step five: Close the portal, stranding the poor barbarian on the plane of unpleasantness.

Step six: Laugh.

The reason uber charger barbarians aren't high tier is that a high tier class would be back next round. She on the other hand is stuck waiting for rescue unless she happened to be carrying some item that allowed her to plane shift.