Mutants and Masterminds: Learning the Ropes

[Coidzor]

I'm potentially joining a Mutants and Masterminds game soon and will be playing with a number of new players and a couple of people who have played before of unknown experience(aside from one of the players having GM'd before). I'm completely new to the system aside from knowing that it's based on the d20 mechanic and is reputed to be capable of approximating a more balanced version of D&D 3E. So any heads up about potential traps and pitfalls, especially for someone coming from a background of having mostly played D&D 3.X/PF and a smattering of decidedly non-d20 systems.

Right now I'm thinking some kind of combination Luchador/Magical Girl(or should it be Super Sentai? Henshin Hero?) idea. Any suggestions for things to look out for or to consider on that front would be appreciated. I think I heard something about grappling being tricky to accomplish, though more streamlined than either D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder's takes on the subject.

I'm basically drawing inspiration from Guacamelee (http://youtu.be/2bzpRc-GBd4?t=3m46s) and Mucha Lucha (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUnurwA92ik) right now. Potentially this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z7UnO66q9w)as well, but I could take that or leave it.

[Beleriphon]

So any heads up about potential traps and pitfalls, especially for someone coming from a background of having mostly played D&D 3.X/PF and a smattering of decidedly non-d20 systems.

The game is effects based. If you find an effect that does 90% of what you want use that. For example you might be inclined to use Create to produce a tangling vine, but the better choice is going to be Affliction.

Within your concept max out your relevant combat stats. Make sure you have the maxed out attack bonus for your primary attack, make sure your toughness at at least ONE of you active defenses are maxed out for your trade-offs. Alternate Effects are your friend, use them whenever it makes senses within your concept.

Variable effects are complicated, don't use them since most of the time you don't need them.

[Spamotron]

Before creating your character mechanically talk to your GM and group about what kind of genre and power level you all have in mind. And I don't mean the games concept of PL. M&M can create just about any power or power combination conceivable and its easy to come up with a power combo that's very hard to deal with in an uncontrived fashion. The iconic/infamous combo of Mind Control and Intangibility on the same character comes to mind. Find out what kinds of powers and power combos your group is okay with so your own character isn't over or underpowered compared to everyone else.

[Coidzor]

We're getting together tomorrow for formal character creation, though we've all been reading over the rules in advance and coming up with general concepts.

The proposed character concepts so far seem to be my Luchador, a dragon that turns into a flying brick-style hero (or possibly a flying brick style hero who can turn into a dragon?), and an honest-to-goodness Magical Girl that may or may not be using attacks that are solely aimed at groins.

So we're at least shying away from something dark and brooding.

There was some mention of Kamen Rider and Neo-Heisei seriousness, but I haven't actually made good on my intentions to start watching Kamen Rider, so I only have some vague notions about that.

So we're starting at PL 10, but after reading through the book and starting again on my second read through, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to determine a few of the things that I have to balance that are capped by power level.

Specifically the limitation of attack bonus vs. effect rank and the interaction of such with attacks that are not powers. So my attack bonus and effect ranks have to be 20 or less, what does that mean for, say, someone with 4 Fighting and 6 Close Combat(unarmed) skill that wants to deck evil in the schnoz but isn't using a Power to do so?

Does that mean the character's Strength can't exceed 10 or something else? If not, what is the effect rank for an attack that isn't a power? Can one even make an attack without using a power? :smallconfused:

[The_Snark]

Specifically the limitation of attack bonus vs. effect rank and the interaction of such with attacks that are not powers. So my attack bonus and effect ranks have to be 20 or less, what does that mean for, say, someone with 4 Fighting and 6 Close Combat(unarmed) skill that wants to deck evil in the schnoz but isn't using a Power to do so?

Does that mean the character's Strength can't exceed 10 or something else? If not, what is the effect rank for an attack that isn't a power? Can one even make an attack without using a power? :smallconfused:

Correct; in this case, your character's Strength can't exceed 10. If you want higher Strength, you can lower your attack bonus and/or buy Power Lifting (Enhanced Strength with the Limited to Lifting flaw).

It is technically possible to make attacks without using a power: unarmed or thrown-object attacks using your Strength are the most obvious example, but the Improvised Weapon and Throwing Mastery advantages also come to mind. That said, damaging attacks are always going to work like the Damage power, and so they're always going to have an effect rank.

It should usually be pretty easy to tell what the effect rank is. Strength 10 = effect rank 10. Throwing Mastery 6 + Strength 2 = effect rank 8. Assault rifle (Ranged Multiattack Damage 5) = effect rank 5. And so on.

[Coidzor]

Thank you, The_Snark. :smallsmile: Sorry for the tardiness of my reply.

I've since come up with a few more questions though, for better or worse.

One of the key concepts for my character idea that I've been trying to figure out is if it's possible to throw an enemy or otherwise force them to move without using mind control and getting them to move for you or using a teleportation attack on them. Since I'm a fan of taking a mother****er and beating another mother****er with 'em(and/or throwing them at them), I'm interested in if I can model that and how, aside from knocking out a minion and using it as an improvised weapon, potentially killing the minion in the process if I recall the rules on incapacitated targets, taking damage, and the dying rules correctly.

Another is that I want him to be able to Jump Good (http://youtu.be/Uwbqr2UjeSg), but I don't see anything about vertical jumps or how much air I can get in the Leaping effect. Do I just take the distance I can jump thanks to leaping and divide it by 10(or possibly 5, since it doesn't mention anything about increased distance with a running long jump when using quick leaping) like with Athletics and the difference between standing long jumps and standing vertical jumps? Is this just something I have to completely ad-hoc hash out with the GM? If so, any recommended interpretations to present when discussing it? Or would I be better off modifying the Flight power in some way in combination with Safe Falling?

If I want to try to do a Whirlwind Attack and make an attack versus everyone in reach of my character, would I typically be better served by trying to use Multiattack as a modifier and saying that the arc is a circle around my character or just applying the Area modifier and accept that I'm no longer making a rolled attack? Or just take the Takedown Advantage and refluff it, since such a thing would only ever be useful against minions anyway?

Does applying the Reach modifier to an attack power that would otherwise just be usable against adjacent foes make it unable to be used to attack those foes "inside" the reach or can it be used to attack any foe within the distance allowed by the ranks in Reach as well as at the limit?

[Beleriphon]

One of the key concepts for my character idea that I've been trying to figure out is if it's possible to throw an enemy or otherwise force them to move without using mind control and getting them to move for you or using a teleportation attack on them. Since I'm a fan of taking a mother****er and beating another mother****er with 'em(and/or throwing them at them), I'm interested in if I can model that and how, aside from knocking out a minion and using it as an improvised weapon, potentially killing the minion in the process if I recall the rules on incapacitated targets, taking damage, and the dying rules correctly.

Yes, yes, and yes. Teleportation attacks tend to be kind of cheesey though. Use grab, throw target.


Another is that I want him to be able to Jump Good (http://youtu.be/Uwbqr2UjeSg), but I don't see anything about vertical jumps or how much air I can get in the Leaping effect. Do I just take the distance I can jump thanks to leaping and divide it by 10(or possibly 5, since it doesn't mention anything about increased distance with a running long jump when using quick leaping) like with Athletics and the difference between standing long jumps and standing vertical jumps? Is this just something I have to completely ad-hoc hash out with the GM? If so, any recommended interpretations to present when discussing it? Or would I be better off modifying the Flight power in some way in combination with Safe Falling?

Leaping distance is either vertical or horizontal height as needed. It doesn't operate on the same rules as Athletics since its basically another move effect that uses the move action. I think the rules function on the basis that the height on a horizontal leap to travel is whatever is necessary to work in game. Reasonably it should probably only be twenty feet up or so, but its up to you and the GM to determine the specifics.


If I want to try to do a Whirlwind Attack and make an attack versus everyone in reach of my character, would I typically be better served by trying to use Multiattack as a modifier and saying that the arc is a circle around my character or just applying the Area modifier and accept that I'm no longer making a rolled attack? Or just take the Takedown Advantage and refluff it, since such a thing would only ever be useful against minions anyway

Takedown is good for minions, Multiattack can work as well. Generally the accepted method is using area with Selective.


Does applying the Reach modifier to an attack power that would otherwise just be usable against adjacent foes make it unable to be used to attack those foes "inside" the reach or can it be used to attack any foe within the distance allowed by the ranks in Reach as well as at the limit?

Reach allows attacks to be made beyond just adjacent targets, but doesn't prevent it from being used against adjacent targets, or anything within the distance it provides. Generally speaking unless the rules explicitly disallow an option after being modified then the original use is still possible.

[Coidzor]

Yes, yes, and yes. Teleportation attacks tend to be kind of cheesey though. Use grab, throw target.

Huh. It almost seemed like that would be too simple/easy. XD


Leaping distance is either vertical or horizontal height as needed. It doesn't operate on the same rules as Athletics since its basically another move effect that uses the move action. I think the rules function on the basis that the height on a horizontal leap to travel is whatever is necessary to work in game. Reasonably it should probably only be twenty feet up or so, but its up to you and the GM to determine the specifics.

We'll see how that goes then. I'm starting to suspect I've filled up too much on advantages and abilities to invest much in Leaping right now anyway.


Takedown is good for minions, Multiattack can work as well. Generally the accepted method is using area with Selective.

Good to know, thank you. I guess that's an alternate effect I'll probably want to pick up then.


Reach allows attacks to be made beyond just adjacent targets, but doesn't prevent it from being used against adjacent targets, or anything within the distance it provides. Generally speaking unless the rules explicitly disallow an option after being modified then the original use is still possible.

Ah, ok. Thank you.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. Reading over it, I seem to have missed how Power Level limits on effect rank and extras, both flaws and modifiers, interact, so I'm not sure how many bells and whistles I can add on to an attack. I get that if the effect rank limit for an attack is 10, then I can have 5 damage and 5 affliction linked together (unless I misread the rules badly) as part of the same attack power or just straight up 10 damage. Not sure how much(or if) it would reduce my max effect rank if I wanted to take that rank 10 damage effect and then make all of the Damage ranks Penetrating or Incurable or only some of them.

Also, can one apply Penetrating to one's damage effect derived from strength? What about Impervious to one's toughness dervied from stamina? How does one do that?

If one's Toughness(stamina + protection) is 10 and Stamina is 6, does one just take Protection 4 (Impervious 6?)? Protection 4 and Impervious Toughness 6 as separate effects? :smallconfused:

[The_Snark]

Hmm. Reading over it, I seem to have missed how Power Level limits on effect rank and extras, both flaws and modifiers, interact, so I'm not sure how many bells and whistles I can add on to an attack. I get that if the effect rank limit for an attack is 10, then I can have 5 damage and 5 affliction linked together (unless I misread the rules badly) as part of the same attack power or just straight up 10 damage. Not sure how much(or if) it would reduce my max effect rank if I wanted to take that rank 10 damage effect and then make all of the Damage ranks Penetrating or Incurable or only some of them.

Modifiers and extras are not limited by power level at all; you could conceivably buy a Penetrating Homing Incurable Multiattack Damage power at full PL. In practice, this isn't always a good idea, because a) it can get pretty expensive, and b) your GM may put their foot down if it looks like your attack power is going to unbalance something.

I'll also note that you've got a misunderstanding about Linked - you don't have to add together the rank of Linked powers when comparing them against the power level. For example, the Disintegrate power (can't remember if that's a standard power in the 3e book, but it used to be) is usually built as follows:

Weaken Toughness X (linked to Damage, affects objects +1/rank, ranged +1/rank)
Damage X (linked to Weaken Toughness, ranged +1/rank)

It's pretty devastating in a fight, forcing a Fortitude save against a Weaken Toughness effect followed by damage. But it costs 5 points per rank, meaning a PL 10 hero who wants it at rank 10 has to spend 50 points. That is a lot. It's pretty hard to squeeze into the budget, even with arrays and flaws helping out.


Also, can one apply Penetrating to one's damage effect derived from strength? What about Impervious to one's toughness dervied from stamina? How does one do that?

If one's Toughness(stamina + protection) is 10 and Stamina is 6, does one just take Protection 4 (Impervious 6?)? Protection 4 and Impervious Toughness 6 as separate effects? :smallconfused:

Yes to both. It doesn't really work any differently; in your example, one buys Stamina 6 (12 points), Protection 4 (4 points), and Impervious 10 applied to Toughness (10 points). (Assuming, of course, that you want 10 ranks of Impervious Toughness; you could cut back on the Impervious modifier and only apply it to part of your Toughness, if you like.)

For Penetration, you'd just buy Penetrating X applied to your unarmed attacks. (If you want it to apply to any Strength-based attack, you might need to add 1 rank of the Variable Descriptor modifier.)

Basically, just apply the extra to the damage effect/save directly; it doesn't really matter if part of the effect is derived from Strength or Stamina.

[Sith_Happens]

Is there a way to have a power be Easily Removable, but only while inactive?

[Coidzor]

Yet more tedious, possibly wrongheaded questions. x.x

If I want to be grabbing enemies, am I basically obligated to have 10 strength/dex (or at least 10 strength/dex, limited to grabbing?) minimum in order to be able to have any decent chance of doing it and justifying the investment in Grab-enhancing advantages?

If not using Fast Grab, how do I determine the attack bonus on a grab check? Is it just the default Close Combat modifier(so Fighting Ability Rank + [any] Ranks in the general Close Combat advantage) + anything miscellaneous, such as ranks in Elongation?

If I have that ability to use improvised weapons (in this case specifically wielding another creature or at least a construct as a weapon) and a power linked to my unarmed attacks, depending upon the descriptor, could I potentially use it in conjunction with the improvised weapon? Is it entirely based upon how I describe the base power whether it'd work with a punch or a crowbar or the guy's best friend's torso?(That's... what I'm leaning towards right now, but I'm not really quite sure I'm thinking about it in the right way)

If I use fast grab to punch, grab, pick up, and then on the next turn, throw someone at someone else, would I need a rank in the Throwing Mastery Advantage in order for a human (or robot/zombie/golem as long as it wasn't like... teeny-tiny action figure sized or something) to count as a damaging thrown weapon? Entirely an ask your GM thing?

Would I need to have the person I was grabbing be restrained or full-up bound in order to throw them/hit someone with them as a Close attack or do they have to be physically unable to resist entirely such as by being incapacitated or paralyzed or otherwise unable to physically react? How would I begin to find out how much damage was done to the person being wielded as a weapon/projectile and the person being hit by the weaponized person? It seems almost like somehow making it so that the weaponized person was delivering a Slam attack and so taking half-damage from whatever damage they were delivering to the person being primarily attacked would model it, but I don't really see any way to untangle the effect of Slam from the framework around it to use it here. Would it just require tagging on the Multiattack extra and lowering my attack bonus by 2 for attempting to damage 2 targets and just roll against the both of them.

What about a piledriver? Say I successfully manage to move someone I'm grabbing, I have the Improved Grab advantage that lets me act normally while grabbing someone, and I use a Leaping movement power to simulate a high jump sufficient to get me high enough that I'd be taking falling damage if not for the safe fall property of the Leaping effect. I then use grab to deal Strength damage to the grabbed creature/make an attack against them for damage in conjunction with hitting the ground again. Would my Leaping power's safe fall effect mean they wouldn't take any falling damage? Would the falling damage and the damage of my attack be handled separately? Would the falling damage apply a circumstance modifier to the effect of my damage allowing me to have an effectively higher damage effect than otherwise allowed by the PL due to the cirumstances I had to go through to get it? Is it a completely grey morass entirely ruled by however the GM feels with no rules basis whatsoever?

I've been seeing a lot about being defense-shifted or attack-shifted or damage-shifted as well, basically to exclusion from what I've seen of the Atomic Think Tank. Am I basically screwing myself without realizing it by staying more or less balanced because I can't really decide what to sacrifice? It seems like Power Attack and Accurate Attack/All-Out Attack would let me simulate being Attack or Damage shifted as needs dictated though. Especially if Improved Critical is worth taking, though I'm not quite sure how much to take(if I should take any) since it seems like constructs/robots/non-living creatures can't be critted on and it's 2 power points, base, to get immunity from them(and the only way around that would be to somehow nullify said immunity, though since nullify works mostly along descriptors/power sources, that'd be tricky to actually line up?)


Modifiers and extras are not limited by power level at all; you could conceivably buy a Penetrating Homing Incurable Multiattack Damage power at full PL. In practice, this isn't always a good idea, because a) it can get pretty expensive, and b) your GM may put their foot down if it looks like your attack power is going to unbalance something.

I'll also note that you've got a misunderstanding about Linked - you don't have to add together the rank of Linked powers when comparing them against the power level. For example, the Disintegrate power (can't remember if that's a standard power in the 3e book, but it used to be) is usually built as follows:

Ahh, so it's just the individual effects connected to an attack roll. Well, that's kind of a relief. :smallbiggrin: Thank you.

That makes things simpler(though I suppose in real terms it increases the complexity of my options) and means I don't have to choose between full rank damage, full rank affliction, or reducing one or the other below effectiveness in order to combine them. That's good. I'm currently more interested in making a punch that causes dizzyness leading to getting straight up knocked out(Daze>Stun>Incapacitated seem to be the best progression for such, though I might limit it to Daze>Stun for points).


Weaken Toughness X (linked to Damage, affects objects +1/rank, ranged +1/rank)
Damage X (linked to Weaken Toughness, ranged +1/rank)

It's pretty devastating in a fight, forcing a Fortitude save against a Weaken Toughness effect followed by damage. But it costs 5 points per rank, meaning a PL 10 hero who wants it at rank 10 has to spend 50 points. That is a lot. It's pretty hard to squeeze into the budget, even with arrays and flaws helping out.

50 definitely seems too high. What is a good metric for points to invest into one's primary attack for a character that's primarily going to be melee-ranged? It seems like a selective close-ranged burst (Selective, Area) attack using one's unarmed damage is 20 pp to apply it to 10 ranks of damage(on top of the cost of the Damage, which if Strength-derived, has already been paid for at 2pp/rank) would be the base effect/power of choice for any melee-ranged attacks for other alternate effects, though since there's no longer any attack roll I'm somewhat confused as to its relation to PL caps, since Perception attacks have their own limit made explicit, but Area attacks do not.

I was thinking maybe some kind of Penetrating alternate effect, but from what I've seen of that and impervious, that's basically a waste for anyone who isn't low-damage or those cases where one is facing a character who is of a much higher PL, correct? Seems like a Multiattack, possibly with increased Reach might be a good alternate effect. Maybe an attack with some Incurable Damage as well if I can swing it? Probably a dedicated affliction/weaken in contrast with the affliction/damage that's seeming more and more likely for my "primary" single-target attack.


Yes to both. It doesn't really work any differently; in your example, one buys Stamina 6 (12 points), Protection 4 (4 points), and Impervious 10 applied to Toughness (10 points). (Assuming, of course, that you want 10 ranks of Impervious Toughness; you could cut back on the Impervious modifier and only apply it to part of your Toughness, if you like.)

For Penetration, you'd just buy Penetrating X applied to your unarmed attacks. (If you want it to apply to any Strength-based attack, you might need to add 1 rank of the Variable Descriptor modifier.)

Basically, just apply the extra to the damage effect/save directly; it doesn't really matter if part of the effect is derived from Strength or Stamina.

In terms of power construction was the main point of confusion with Protection and Impervious, since I wasn't quite sure whether they had to be the same power or if they could be separate powers. Say, having the ability to choose between being resistant to lesser forms of damage from Impervious Toughness or being able to Regenerate as alternate effects, but not both at the same time(or maybe a dynamic array, where the resistance to damage decreases the faster it tries to heal) but the Protection rank is always the same regardless of which alternate effect is currently active.


Is there a way to have a power be Easily Removable, but only while inactive?

I'm le neophyte, but from reading over the OGC and the core book it seems like one of those times they'd do the rulestext equivalent of shrugging and saying "just use a quirk or complication." :smallconfused:

I'd almost be tempted to use that to model how it's easy to take away his mask if he's not wearing it or hasn't transformed yet, but once he is transformed it's much less easy to get off of him or perhaps isn't really possible without killing/decapitation/special circumstances.

[Beleriphon]

Is there a way to have a power be Easily Removable, but only while inactive?

I'd call it removable at that point. If it can be removed but only under certain circumstances, probably involving incapacitating the target, then the Removable is a good way to go.

[Beleriphon]

Yet more tedious, possibly wrongheaded questions. x.x

If I want to be grabbing enemies, am I basically obligated to have 10 strength/dex (or at least 10 strength/dex, limited to grabbing?) minimum in order to be able to have any decent chance of doing it and justifying the investment in Grab-enhancing advantages?

If not using Fast Grab, how do I determine the attack bonus on a grab check? Is it just the default Close Combat modifier(so Fighting Ability Rank + [any] Ranks in the general Close Combat advantage) + anything miscellaneous, such as ranks in Elongation?

Its the general attack bonus options, so you have it correct. Keep in mind that you can take Close Combat: Attack as a skill choice.


If I have that ability to use improvised weapons (in this case specifically wielding another creature or at least a construct as a weapon) and a power linked to my unarmed attacks, depending upon the descriptor, could I potentially use it in conjunction with the improvised weapon? Is it entirely based upon how I describe the base power whether it'd work with a punch or a crowbar or the guy's best friend's torso?(That's... what I'm leaning towards right now, but I'm not really quite sure I'm thinking about it in the right way)

I suppose it should be able to, but really its up to you and the GM to work out whether that's legit. I don't see a particular issue, but you'd still be limited by the PL of your game.


If I use fast grab to punch, grab, pick up, and then on the next turn, throw someone at someone else, would I need a rank in the Throwing Mastery Advantage in order for a human (or robot/zombie/golem as long as it wasn't like... teeny-tiny action figure sized or something) to count as a damaging thrown weapon? Entirely an ask your GM thing?

No, it counts as a thrown weapon based on your character's strength.


Would I need to have the person I was grabbing be restrained or full-up bound in order to throw them/hit someone with them as a Close attack or do they have to be physically unable to resist entirely such as by being incapacitated or paralyzed or otherwise unable to physically react?

I'd go with them having to be incapacitated or moved them into the bound status as per the Grab rules, otherwise they are able to actively resist your efforts.


How would I begin to find out how much damage was done to the person being wielded as a weapon/projectile and the person being hit by the weaponized person? It seems almost like somehow making it so that the weaponized person was delivering a Slam attack and so taking half-damage from whatever damage they were delivering to the person being primarily attacked would model it, but I don't really see any way to untangle the effect of Slam from the framework around it to use it here. Would it just require tagging on the Multiattack extra and lowering my attack bonus by 2 for attempting to damage 2 targets and just roll against the both of them.

Go with either a slam or damage equal to the target's toughness.


What about a piledriver? Say I successfully manage to move someone I'm grabbing, I have the Improved Grab advantage that lets me act normally while grabbing someone, and I use a Leaping movement power to simulate a high jump sufficient to get me high enough that I'd be taking falling damage if not for the safe fall property of the Leaping effect. I then use grab to deal Strength damage to the grabbed creature/make an attack against them for damage in conjunction with hitting the ground again. Would my Leaping power's safe fall effect mean they wouldn't take any falling damage?

You're leaping power protects anything you are holding, including another creature. You could drop them by jumping straight up if you wanted.


Would the falling damage and the damage of my attack be handled separately? Would the falling damage apply a circumstance modifier to the effect of my damage allowing me to have an effectively higher damage effect than otherwise allowed by the PL due to the circumstances I had to go through to get it? Is it a completely grey morass entirely ruled by however the GM feels with no rules basis whatsoever?

Yes, falling damage should handled as a separate damage dealer. There aren't exactly clear cut rules for these situations since they tend to be corner cases best handled by the GM and the player. A pile driver in the wrestling sense is really just damage (possibly Strength Based with the Grab Based flaw).


I've been seeing a lot about being defense-shifted or attack-shifted or damage-shifted as well, basically to exclusion from what I've seen of the Atomic Think Tank. Am I basically screwing myself without realizing it by staying more or less balanced because I can't really decide what to sacrifice?

No. Shifting works as a way to build different types of character. That said Toughness shifting is generally mathematically better than even or Defense shifting.


It seems like Power Attack and Accurate Attack/All-Out Attack would let me simulate being Attack or Damage shifted as needs dictated though. Especially if Improved Critical is worth taking, though I'm not quite sure how much to take(if I should take any) since it seems like constructs/robots/non-living creatures can't be critted on and it's 2 power points, base, to get immunity from them(and the only way around that would be to somehow nullify said immunity, though since nullify works mostly along descriptors/power sources, that'd be tricky to actually line up?)

Keep in mind that all characters can use Power Attack, Accurate Attack, All-out Attack and Defensive Attack but only at +2/-2 without the advantage.


50 definitely seems too high. What is a good metric for points to invest into one's primary attack for a character that's primarily going to be melee-ranged? It seems like a selective close-ranged burst (Selective, Area) attack using one's unarmed damage is 20 pp to apply it to 10 ranks of damage(on top of the cost of the Damage, which if Strength-derived, has already been paid for at 2pp/rank) would be the base effect/power of choice for any melee-ranged attacks for other alternate effects, though since there's no longer any attack roll I'm somewhat confused as to its relation to PL caps, since Perception attacks have their own limit made explicit, but Area attacks do not.

Depends, up to half is probably okay if you're going for a character with a bunch of powers. If you look at archetypes the paragon has 84 points of 150 dedicated to powers.

If an attack doesn't require an attack roll the maximum rank it can have is equal to the PL of the game/character. So a PL 10 game the highest rank an area attack can have is 10. That doesn't mean your character couldn't have other attacks at high or lower ranks so long as they require an attack roll.


I was thinking maybe some kind of Penetrating alternate effect, but from what I've seen of that and impervious, that's basically a waste for anyone who isn't low-damage or those cases where one is facing a character who is of a much higher PL, correct? Seems like a Multiattack, possibly with increased Reach might be a good alternate effect. Maybe an attack with some Incurable Damage as well if I can swing it? Probably a dedicated affliction/weaken in contrast with the affliction/damage that's seeming more and more likely for my "primary" single-target attack.

Just a note Multiattack explicitly doesn't allow the attack to overcome Impervious if the base attack isn't a high enough base damage to do so.


In terms of power construction was the main point of confusion with Protection and Impervious, since I wasn't quite sure whether they had to be the same power or if they could be separate powers. Say, having the ability to choose between being resistant to lesser forms of damage from Impervious Toughness or being able to Regenerate as alternate effects, but not both at the same time(or maybe a dynamic array, where the resistance to damage decreases the faster it tries to heal) but the Protection rank is always the same regardless of which alternate effect is currently active.

You could do this, but both effects would need to be modified from permanent to sustained effects, and one could be an AE of the other. You can also have Impervious applied to the Toughness directly rather than Protection. This would allow you to have Impervious or Regeneration active.

[Coidzor]

Its the general attack bonus options, so you have it correct. Keep in mind that you can take Close Combat: Attack as a skill choice.

So Close Combat(Unarmed) and Close Combat(Grab) would be rendered as separate skills in addition to other categories like swords, axes, spears, bludgeons, then?


I suppose it should be able to, but really its up to you and the GM to work out whether that's legit. I don't see a particular issue, but you'd still be limited by the PL of your game.

Alright, thank you. Keeping coming up on areas where I'm not sure if it's my reading of the rules not quite jiving or if it's hitting upon hash it out with the GM territory. x,x


No, it counts as a thrown weapon based on your character's strength.

So a damage effect equal to strength rank. Gotcha, well, that's one area I don't need to worry about stepping on the toes of the guy who wants to play a Gambit expy then.


I'd go with them having to be incapacitated or moved them into the bound status as per the Grab rules, otherwise they are able to actively resist your efforts.

Makes sense.


Go with either a slam or damage equal to the target's toughness.

Equal to the target's toughness, eh? Never would have thought of that one, I'll run those both by my GM and see what he thinks then. Thank you. Heck, I'll probably just show him this thread...


You're leaping power protects anything you are holding, including another creature. You could drop them by jumping straight up if you wanted.

I wasn't quite sure about whether that first part was implied or explicit, so thank you for clearing that up.


Yes, falling damage should handled as a separate damage dealer. There aren't exactly clear cut rules for these situations since they tend to be corner cases best handled by the GM and the player. A pile driver in the wrestling sense is really just damage (possibly Strength Based with the Grab Based flaw).

That would simplify things, yeah.


No. Shifting works as a way to build different types of character. That said Toughness shifting is generally mathematically better than even or Defense shifting.

Hmm. Well, that's a bit of a relief. Thank you.


Keep in mind that all characters can use Power Attack, Accurate Attack, All-out Attack and Defensive Attack but only at +2/-2 without the advantage.

Point. I was considering dropping those, at least for now, or at least only keeping Power Attack and either Accurate Attack or All-Out Attack. Right now sort of weighing them against ranks of Improved Critical.


Depends, up to half is probably okay if you're going for a character with a bunch of powers. If you look at archetypes the paragon has 84 points of 150 dedicated to powers.

Mostly I'm angling for a close combat fighter who is fairly mobile through the use of Speed and Leaping and can at least chuck anything that's conveniently in the area when someone is out of his ability to reach and has some durability and senses to ago along with that. Initially I was thinking I could use Damage to supplement a slightly lower Strength of 5-6, but it seems like I'm going to need to bump strength up to 10 or axe any plans for using Grabbing.

I either saw it mentioned in a sidebar or saw it mentioned in the atomic think tank that being too fast without some quickness to allow my character to process what's going on might mess things up, but he's currently looking more like he can run ~60-120 mph rather than what a real speedster would pull out.

Currently I'm 10 points over on my tentative build, though I'm rejiggering his abilities and defenses since I realized the Growth effect allows me to both model him as around 8 feet tall and boosts stamina and strength at the same cost of just boosting one of them.

(I was thinking 5 or 6 ranks, since apparently(?) it takes 4 ranks of growth to have a human who is 6 feet tall or taller(but less than 15' tall) and 8 ranks would make him a rank 0 size creature and so ~30 feet tall even though 15' is the cap for rank -1 size, so I'm slightly confused as to how that works out, since Growth 1-3 is clearly limited to being less than 6 feet tall by the nature of size ranks[which at least seem to be synced up with the distance ranks for humanoid shaped things]. Growth 5 since my attempts to break up the 9 feet between 6' and 15' into 4 groups would suggest that it's a 2.25' per rank of growth in that range, Growth 6 since it's the next round number. Or am I overthinking it and I can just say I'm whatever height between 6' and 15' that's as long as I'm in that size rank, so it doesn't matter if I have Growth 4 or Growth 7.)


If an attack doesn't require an attack roll the maximum rank it can have is equal to the PL of the game/character. So a PL 10 game the highest rank an area attack can have is 10. That doesn't mean your character couldn't have other attacks at high or lower ranks so long as they require an attack roll.

That makes sense, yeah. x.x Not sure how I managed to miss that, maybe I just mentally translated it into perception attacks when taking notes because that was the only non-attack-rolling attack I was aware of at the time.


Just a note Multiattack explicitly doesn't allow the attack to overcome Impervious if the base attack isn't a high enough base damage to do so.

Oh, yeah. Multiattack was just as one of a couple possible alternate effects for punching and wrestling things into submission.


You could do this, but both effects would need to be modified from permanent to sustained effects, and one could be an AE of the other. You can also have Impervious applied to the Toughness directly rather than Protection. This would allow you to have Impervious or Regeneration active.

Thank you both, again, for clearing that up for me. :smallsmile:

Now to just figure out what level of Regeneration is considered high regeneration and innately problematic and stay below that. I don't think I'd want to go above 10 anyway, though some level of Persistent seems like it would be a good idea for insurance if nothing else.

[Sith_Happens]

Mostly I'm angling for a close combat fighter who is fairly mobile through the use of Speed and Leaping and can at least chuck anything that's conveniently in the area when someone is out of his ability to reach and has some durability and senses to ago along with that.

For the throwing things part, how about Enhanced Strength (Limited to Throwing) (Linked to Speed)?


Initially I was thinking I could use Damage to supplement a slightly lower Strength of 5-6, but it seems like I'm going to need to bump strength up to 10 or axe any plans for using Grabbing.

Once again, Enhanced Strength (Limited to Grabbing) is probably what you want.

[Coidzor]

Oh, and just for the lulz, what sort of power would it be that'd allow one to either make a wrestling ring out of materials from the surrounding area or just summon one out of the ether or from elsewhere? A straight up Create effect application? Some kind of Feature? Some kind of Hero Point-only action?


For the throwing things part, how about Enhanced Strength (Limited to Throwing) (Linked to Speed)?

Once again, Enhanced Strength (Limited to Grabbing) is probably what you want.

What would Linking it to Speed do? :smallconfused:

Wouldn't having both Enhanced Strength(limited to grabbing) and enhanced strength(limited to throwing) or really any two instances of limited enhanced strength be somewhat counter productive or at least getting ahead of myself unless I'd hit upon the strength cap for power level for the attack bonus I want?

Unless I wanted different levels of each, I suppose... *lightbulb?*

Hm. Good point for after hitting the PL cap for strength for damage though. Too bad limiting it to both probably isn't enough of a limitation for it to change the price... Though I guess I could make them alternate effects if I wanted to have less ability to throw grappled foes which seems clunky enough that I probably don't want to do it anyway...

Or if I can switch between them fast enough I suppose I could have the enhanced STR(grab) up and then switch to enhanced STR(throw) after I had them bound and ready to throw but before they could contest their bound status? Or maybe it'd be one of those times where a Dynamic Alternate Effect might be in order? :smallconfused:

[Sith_Happens]

Oh, and just for the lulz, what sort of power would it be that'd allow one to either make a wrestling ring out of materials from the surrounding area or just summon one out of the ether or from elsewhere? A straight up Create effect application? Some kind of Feature? Some kind of Hero Point-only action?

How passable do you want the edge of the ring to be?


What would Linking it to Speed do? :smallconfused:

For thematic purposes, since I assume the super-speed is supposed to be part of what makes him good at throwing things.

[Coidzor]

How passable do you want the edge of the ring to be?

I think normally it'd be a minor obstruction to get into/around, though I guess that's less important than if it can be entered and exited or not? Though you've now given me the mental image of being able to potentially cause cage matches with one's foes which is... intriguing.


For thematic purposes, since I assume the super-speed is supposed to be part of what makes him good at throwing things.

Oh, no. I guess it would help with spinning around and tossing someone though. Mostly it was part of helping take steps to make sure he can at least *try* to get close enough to enemies and deliver an elbow drop full of justice in a somewhat timely manner. I may drop the super speed completely for now or lower it. I've got some further revision of the powers list to do at any rate.

[Sith_Happens]

I think normally it'd be a minor obstruction to get into/around, though I guess that's less important than if it can be entered and exited or not? Though you've now given me the mental image of being able to potentially cause cage matches with one's foes which is... intriguing.

How about a Selective Environment (Impede Movement) effect, then?

[Beleriphon]

(I was thinking 5 or 6 ranks, since apparently(?) it takes 4 ranks of growth to have a human who is 6 feet tall or taller(but less than 15' tall) and 8 ranks would make him a rank 0 size creature and so ~30 feet tall even though 15' is the cap for rank -1 size, so I'm slightly confused as to how that works out, since Growth 1-3 is clearly limited to being less than 6 feet tall by the nature of size ranks[which at least seem to be synced up with the distance ranks for humanoid shaped things]. Growth 5 since my attempts to break up the 9 feet between 6' and 15' into 4 groups would suggest that it's a 2.25' per rank of growth in that range, Growth 6 since it's the next round number. Or am I overthinking it and I can just say I'm whatever height between 6' and 15' that's as long as I'm in that size rank, so it doesn't matter if I have Growth 4 or Growth 7.)

Growth 4 makes your character Large. The default size is Size Rank -2 for humans which ranges between 3 and 6 feet. Anything between Growth 1 and 3 is larger than a fairly large person. Once you hit Rank 4 the character can become Large sized.

[Coidzor]

Growth 4 makes your character Large. The default size is Size Rank -2 for humans which ranges between 3 and 6 feet. Anything between Growth 1 and 3 is larger than a fairly large person. Once you hit Rank 4 the character can become Large sized.

And I'm over 6 feet tall and Large sized, apparently, despite being well within human norms which may be part of why it's giving me a headache.

[Beleriphon]

And I'm over 6 feet tall and Large sized, apparently, despite being well within human norms which may be part of why it's giving me a headache.

No, you're still medium sized with one rank of Growth. You need the full Growth rank 4 to be large sized which starts at 15 feet tall. Growth ranks 1 to 3 don't increase the actual size category, only every four full ranks (4, 8, 12, 16, and 20) increase size categories. So ranks 1 to 3 give you a height somewhere between just over 6 feet and just under 15.

At a certain point unless you want the bonus stats from Growth just state your character is a certain reasonable size and go with it. If you look at DC Adventures Darkseid doesn't have Growth despite being 12 feet tall, so at a certain point it comes down to the mechanical benefits you want to have.

[Coidzor]

I guess I'm mixed up about how ranks work then. I thought it was that the entry on a rank was its upper limit. So Distance Rank -2 is anything from 3.000000001 feet and 6 feet. and Distance Rank -1 is anything from 6.00000000001 feet and 15 feet. That is, anything above the rank one lower and anything equal to or lower than the figure for the rank itself.

So being over 6' tall should put one into size rank -1 unless size rank also factors mass rank as well as height, right? :smallconfused:

...Are size ranks defined anywhere other than in the Growth effect?

[The_Snark]

I guess I'm mixed up about how ranks work then. I thought it was that the entry on a rank was its upper limit. So Distance Rank -2 is anything from 3.000000001 feet and 6 feet. and Distance Rank -1 is anything from 6.00000000001 feet and 15 feet. That is, anything above the rank one lower and anything equal to or lower than the figure for the rank itself.

So being over 6' tall should put one into size rank -1 unless size rank also factors mass rank as well as height, right? :smallconfused:

...Are size ranks defined anywhere other than in the Growth effect?

Not that I'm aware of. Ordinarily, I'd say you were right about ranks defining the upper limit, but in this case I think you're overthinking it a bit. Being 6'6" feet tall instead of 6 is a pretty trivial difference (and on a larger scale, so is being 70 feet tall instead of 60). You don't need Growth to be 6'6", and you definitely don't need 4+ ranks of it.

Generally, I wouldn't bother with Growth or Shrinking unless you plan to be significantly outside human norms. If you want to be 7-8 feet tall, then a rank or even two of Growth is probably appropriate; taking Shrinking for a 5'2" character is unnecessary.

Outside of that, remember that Growth (and Shrinking) should affect size with every rank, regardless of whether it's an interval of 4. Growth 4 is ~15 feet tall; Growth 8 is ~30. Growth 5, 6 or 7 would all lie somewhere in between (not worth working out exact values, just eyeball it). The size ranks are more like signposts than categories, if that makes sense.

[Coidzor]

Ok, so we had our first session last night, but I think I might have messed something up or possibly violated the PL cap. The GM didn't doublecheck our characters as much as I was expecting, but he did get frustrated pretty quickly when in the first tutorial fight we had I managed to grab the main enemy and that enemy couldn't actually escape from my grab(?) if we were remembering how things worked correctly(though I suspect we forgot that at the very least a nat 20 would have gotten him out if nothing else).

Also, is there a way for a character to stop a second character from grabbing a third character or otherwise disrupt the hold? We ended up having a Power Rangers moment where the bad guy in question was made about 60 feet tall

Also, would anyone mind doublechecking these powers I put together? I wasn't quite sure if the activation required flaw applied to each individual power or just the powers as a whole or if I should add up the points of all of the different powers combined for the removable flaw or if I should just do the individual powers and apply the removable flaw to each power individually.

Super Strength: (Enhanced Strength 8 ranks (16 points) - 2 Activation Required Flaw) = 14 points. - 1/5 ranks Removable Flaw 14 - 3 = 11 points.

Super Endurance: (Enhanced Stamina 9 ranks (18 points) - 2 activation required flaw) = 16 points. - 1/5 ranks Removable Flaw 16 - 4 = 12 points.

Super Agility: (Enhanced Agility 7 ranks (14 points) - 2 activation required flaw) = 12 points. - 1/5 ranks Removable Flaw 12 - 3 = 9 points.

Super Prowess: (Enhanced Fighting 9 ranks (18 points) - 2 activation required flaw) = 16 points. - 1/5 ranks Removable Flaw 16 - 4 = 12 points.

Heroic Presence: (Enhanced Presence 4 ranks (8 points) - 2 activation required flaw) = 6 points - 1/5 ranks Removable Flaw 6 - 2 = 4 points

Heroic Wisdom: (Enhanced Awareness 4 ranks (8 points) - 2 Activation required flaw) = 6 points - 1/5 ranks Removable Flaw 6 - 2 = 4 points.

Heroic Wits: (Enhanced Intellect 2 ranks (4 points) - 2 Activation required flaw) = 2 points - 1/5 ranks Removable flaw 2 - 1 = 1 point.

Heroic Stature: (Growth 2 ranks (4 points) - 2 activation required flaw) = 2 points. -1/5 ranks Removable Flaw 2 - 1 = 1 point. [Note: I think I'm gonna just call this like... 8 feet tall or so, was sort of wavering on 7'-8' ish]

Super Speed: Quickness 3 ranks(3 points) Speed 5 ranks (5 points) = 8 - 2 activation required flaw = 6 ranks - 1/5 ranks Removable flaw 6 - 2 = 4 points.

Luchador Aerial Mastery: Leaping 8 ranks(4 points)(Acrobatics Check Required: -1 cost per rank, 2 ranks per 1 point) - 2 activation required flaw = 2 ranks - 1/5 ranks Removable flaw 2 - 1 = 1 point.

Lucha Parkour: Movement(sure-footed) 2 ranks (4 points) - 2 activation required. 2 points - 1/5 removable flaw 2 - 1 = 1 point.

Wall-Jumping: Movement 1 rank(Safe Fall) 1 rank(Wall-Crawling) (4 points) - 2 activation required = 2 points - 1/5 rank Removable flaw 2 - 1 = 1 point.

Luchador Senses: Accurate Hearing (2 ranks 2 points), Extended Hearing 1 rank (1 point), Extended Vision 1 rank (1 point), Danger Sense 1 rank (1 point), Darkvision 2 ranks (2 points), Low-light vision 1 rank (1 point) combine to be... 8 ranks, 8 points. 8 points - 2 activation required flaw = 6 points. 6 points - 1/5 ranks removable flaw. 6 - 2 = 4 points.

Luchador Resilience: Regeneration 5 ranks(5 points) - 2 activation required = 3 points. 3 - 1/5 ranks Removable flaw = 2 points.

Lucha Grappling: Enhanced Strength 5 ranks(Limited: Resistance check to avoid being grabbed and checks to escape grabs only, not Strength damaging through grapples) 5 points. - 2 activation required. 3 points - 1/5 removable flaw 3 - 1 = 2 points. [Note: Does this violate the PL cap by making my +10 attack bonus for grabbing(or hitting with an unarmed strike and then grabbing via fast grab) sync up with a 15 Strength for their resistance check adding up to 25 instead of the 20 they'd be limited by PL?]

Lucha Spinning Lariet: Selective(+1/rank) Area(+1/rank) applied to Strength Damage. +20 points for 10 ranks. - 2 activation required. 18 points - 2 Acrobatics Check required for 16 points. 16 - 1/5 ranks removable flaw = 16- 4 = 12 points.

11+12+9+12+4+4+1+1+4+1+1+1+4+2+2+12 = 81
Points Subtotal: 81

[The_Snark]

Also, would anyone mind doublechecking these powers I put together? I wasn't quite sure if the activation required flaw applied to each individual power or just the powers as a whole...

Technically, you can do it either way, but if you apply it to each individual power then you need to spend a standard action to activate every power separately. This means it'll take a couple of minutes to power up, which I do not recommend - that's unusable in combat and trivial if you do it before entering a fight, and on the whole it'd be better to do it with a complication.

If you want to be able to activate all those powers with a single standard action, which is what I think you're going for, just apply it once to the whole group.


or if I should add up the points of all of the different powers combined for the removable flaw or if I should just do the individual powers and apply the removable flaw to each power individually.

Shouldn't matter, but I'd go for the former, just to minimize rounding error. (Especially if these powers are all bound up in one removable device/talisman/thingy, as opposed to sixteen different ones.)


[Note: Does this violate the PL cap by making my +10 attack bonus for grabbing(or hitting with an unarmed strike and then grabbing via fast grab) sync up with a 15 Strength for their resistance check adding up to 25 instead of the 20 they'd be limited by PL?]

Yes. If you're grabbing with 15 Strength, you're limited to an attack bonus of +5. Using Fast Grab to try to get around that is... I don't know if it works by a strict reading of the rules as written, but it definitely shouldn't work by the spirit of the rules.

(Though I would disagree with your assumption earlier; I think Close Combat: Unarmed would cover grabbing as well as basic unarmed attacks, tripping, disarming, and so on. That's a bit of a GM judgment call, though.)

[Coidzor]

Technically, you can do it either way, but if you apply it to each individual power then you need to spend a standard action to activate every power separately. This means it'll take a couple of minutes to power up, which I do not recommend - that's unusable in combat and trivial if you do it before entering a fight, and on the whole it'd be better to do it with a complication.

Ugh. Now to find the developers and complain at them for not wording that more clearly in the first place and get banned from their website for pointing out their flaws.

It takes entirely too much reading to figure out how to do a basic transforming superhero. :smallannoyed:


Yes. If you're grabbing with 15 Strength, you're limited to an attack bonus of +5. Using Fast Grab to try to get around that is... I don't know if it works by a strict reading of the rules as written, but it definitely shouldn't work by the spirit of the rules.

(Though I would disagree with your assumption earlier; I think Close Combat: Unarmed would cover grabbing as well as basic unarmed attacks, tripping, disarming, and so on. That's a bit of a GM judgment call, though.)

Well, that is why I asked earlier if unarmed and grab were separate attack skills.

[Sith_Happens]

It takes entirely too much reading to figure out how to do a basic transforming superhero. :smallannoyed:

Only if you don't read the "Alternate Form" sample power which is exactly that.

[Coidzor]

Only if you don't read the "Alternate Form" sample power which is exactly that.

Ah, yes, the brief text blurb which only told me that Activation Required was somehow involved.

How helpful.

Especially when I am now told that all of my powers having the activation required modifier was nobadwrong powergaming.

[Sith_Happens]

Then choose the action required to assume your Alternate Form: if it requires a move action, subtract 1 character point from the total cost of the effects. If it requires a standard action, subtract 2 points.

Multiple effects, one application of the flaw. It's right there.