So what's the Snarl's challenge rating?

[bertoltus]

I'm really curious.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'd say Challenge Rating Vorlon.

By which I mean: Here is a summary of the Stat Block of a Vorlon from the Babylon 5 d20 book:

-We're not stating this
-If you fight a Vorlon, you lose
-Not even if you try that
-Or that
-Not even that

[Chantelune]

Considering it's a god-killing abomination, I'd say the CR is "roll a new char already".

[oppyu]

The whole statblock is just 'lol, you dead' in really big letters.

[Sunken Valley]

High, but it's statblock would be that of a trap or an environmental hazard, not a creature.

[Rodin]

It eats 1d4 Adventurers per round. No save.

[WindStruck]

The scouter read 9001 and then fried itself. Or maybe that was because of Tarquin's iron grip crushing it.

[Copperdragon]

From what we got told the Order of the Scribble did manage to fight it.

Yes, you are not going to whack it down but at least individual tentacles should have stats.

How much this is worth is debatable, as the story just went into "Actually... we know nothing"-mode.

[Comissar]

Stats of the Snarl:
HP: Lots.
Armor Class: Can't touch this.
Saving Throws: Yes.
Attack: Successful - undoes target.
Challenge Rating: Too high.

I'm afraid I can claim no credit for the above :smalltongue:

[Cicciograna]

CR: you lose.

CR: a lot higher than you.

CR: seriously?!?

CR: n/0+, ∀ n ∈ ℕ+.

CR: TREE(3) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal%27s_tree_theorem#Friedman.27s_finite_form) (this one is finite, but VERY large)

[WindStruck]

CR: Don't bother rolling for stealth or initiative. Instead roll a new character. Preferably in a completely unrelated setting.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Challenge Rating: TPK

[maxi]

Answer - probably somewhere around 264,093,876,000,000,000,000,000,058,608 (exact number)
Point of reference - this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?164660-Why-did-I-do-this-Because-I-could&p=2873260#post2873260)

[Scow2]

I'd say it's somewhere between 21 and 30... but it's a Trap/Environment Hazard, not a monster. Just because you can't kill it doesn't mean you can't bypass/negate it.

[Sir_Leorik]

I'm really curious.

Calculate your party's APL (Average Party Level). Then multiply that by Infinity. That's the Snarl's CR.

The closest that you're going to see to a monster like The Snarl in a D&D adventure is something like Gwydion the Sorcerer-Fiend, from the 2E mega-module "The Shadow Rift". Gwydion is an eldritch abomination that is so powerful you can't fight it, only fight it's claw, eye, and a few other organs, as it is trying to force itself out of a Gate where it was sealed in 4,000 years ago. The only way to beat Gwydion is to toss one of the Regalia of Arak the Erlking into the Obsidian Gate, sealing Gwydion in.

[Lheticus]

High, but it's statblock would be that of a trap or an environmental hazard, not a creature.


From what we got told the Order of the Scribble did manage to fight it.

Yes, you are not going to whack it down but at least individual tentacles should have stats.

How much this is worth is debatable, as the story just went into "Actually... we know nothing"-mode.

Hmm...I'm intrigued. I would think if the Snarl got totally free, then the unstatable stuff would pretty much apply--or maybe not! I'm starting to think of it in terms of stating the Kraken--placing each "Snarl Tendril" as a separate entity--this would perhaps reduce each tendril to an Epic level, but technically beatable, CR--maybe something like every single Snarl Tendril is = to 1 Xykon or so. In the ridiculously unlikely event that enough Tendrils are destroyed to expose the "core" whatever it would be...I have no idea. Maybe if enough Tendrils are destroyed, it would be beatable--provided that they don't simply regenerate, which they probably do. It managed to kill the Western Gods because they weren't just fighting the tendrils, they were fighting the whole thing--and the "core" portion of the Snarl is almost certainly leagues more dangerous than all the tendrils combined--and it probably has like thousands. UNLESS we're dealing with some kind of hive-mind collective type of thing here, where the more pieces of the Snarl present = every single piece is stronger, in which case the gods were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of the hive mind.

This could go any number of ways--including a select few where the Snarl IS technically beatable, I think.

[factotum]

Considering it's a god-killing abomination, I'd say the CR is "roll a new char already".

However, Shojo said that it's possible gods would be even more sensitive to the Snarl's attacks than a mortal would, so the converse of that suggests a mortal might last longer in direct combat with it than a god. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean anything considering it killed an entire pantheon of gods and destroyed a world in 21 minutes...

[Arcane_Secrets]

High, but it's statblock would be that of a trap or an environmental hazard, not a creature.

But when Shojo was describing it to the OotS, he said that it killed off an entire pantheon before then turning to destroy the first version of the world. At a minimum, that implies that it is intelligent enough to select targets in an order-and that if it had a CR it would have to be well above the gods themselves to take them out that easily.

[Giggling Ghast]

The infinity symbol.

[Skorj]

It eats 1d4 Adventurers per round. No save.

In one of the various rules systems in which Cthulhu has been statted, his damage was listed as "d4+4 adventurers per round". I always liked that.

[Bulldog Psion]

I'm afraid I can claim no credit for the above :smalltongue:

I use that as my signature, in fact. :smallbiggrin:

[IW Judicator]

Roll D%. The result, by DM choice, is either

1) How many minutes it will take for reality to be undone by the Snarl or

2) How much of reality will be undone by the Snarl this round.

[Amphiox]

Out of curiosity of mechanics, perhaps it is more interesting to ask what the Snarl's *lowest possible challenge rating* would have to be to have done what it canonically has done - ie TPK an entire pantheon of gods, and terrify all the other pantheons into not even attempting to fight it after that. (Naturally in "reality" its CR could be much higher than that minimum....)

I don't know if we should bother adding "unmaking a world" to that since, because that world was still in the process of being formed and we don't know how solidly put together it was at the time, and it is entirely possible that unmaking the world at that particular point might not have been all that challenging a task, relatively speaking.

The Greek Pantheon has 6-12 gods in it, depending how you want to count, and their levels would have to be 40-60 thereabouts, with at least Zeus being up in the higher range of that....

[SaintRidley]

I'm afraid I can claim no credit for the above :smalltongue:

I believe I can, however.

[Loreweaver15]

"Already-dead".

[Jay R]

Greater than that of all the Eastern Gods combined.

So calculate the CR for Zeus & all the rest, then add (at least) one.

[Amridell]

Pretty certain the snarl looks like this:

CR: yes

[snikrept]

r.e. CR for Zeus etc

Shojo speculated in the flashback that gods might be particularly susceptible to Snarl attacks in a way that mortals are not. I feel that this will eventually turn out to be important.

[Scow2]

If the Snarl were truly an insurmountable Challenge, then the Order of the Scribble would have failed at locking it away. It's obviously not "d4+X adventurers per round", otherwise Soon wouldn't have survived the attack on his wife, and NONE of the scribblers would have survived the final battle where only Kraagor was destroyed (After defeating the Snarl 5 or so times before).

[factotum]

If the Snarl were truly an insurmountable Challenge, then the Order of the Scribble would have failed at locking it away.

The OotScribble *didn't* lock it away. The Gods locked it away--all the Scribble did was seal some relatively small holes in the prison that was already created.

[Roland Itiative]

The OotScribble *didn't* lock it away. The Gods locked it away--all the Scribble did was seal some relatively small holes in the prison that was already created.

The fact remains that the Order of the Scribble managed to hold their own ground in battle with a part of the Snarl for at least a few rounds (I'm assuming the Snarl just appeared at the end of the ritual here, worst case scenario would have them fighting without their primary casters for as long as it took for the ritual to complete), and only one of them died, so definitely a party of mortals can "beat" the Snarl in controlled circumstances. Unless the backstory is a lie, of course.

[ChristianSt]

The fact remains that the Order of the Scribble managed to hold their own ground in battle with a part of the Snarl for at least a few rounds (I'm assuming the Snarl just appeared at the end of the ritual here, worst case scenario would have them fighting without their primary casters for as long as it took for the ritual to complete), and only one of them died, so definitely a party of mortals can "beat" the Snarl in controlled circumstances. Unless the backstory is a lie, of course.

(Emphasis mine)

Part != the whole thing. So that does tell us very little about the Snarl's CR.

I think my left thumb has a much smaller CR than me whole :smallwink:.

[Killer Angel]

Its CR should be similar to the Lady of Pain's.

[MReav]

CR of Snarl: Large enough to describe a creature capable of soloing multiple gods in a single round.

CR of Snarl Fragment Jutting Through The Portal: Some are low enough that a team of Epic Level characters can hold it back temporarily.

[JustWantedToSay]

IIRC, in the Geekery thread, someone pointed out that Dorukon could be up to level 40, based on the number of energy drains it took to kill him.

At the absolute minimum, Girard would have been level 3 before the final gate. (2 ranger + 1 Illusionist)

So the question would be, what CR would the snarl be, if defeating it gave enough exp to level up six characters from level 3 to 40. (Let's assume Kraagor's share of the experience goes to oblivion)

Now the D&D experience formula typically caps at 7 levels difference.

If we continued the formula, doubling the experience for every +2 cr, it would only require a CR28 monster. Seems too little though

So let's try A different way: A CR10 monster gives 10800 exp to the party, or 1800 by six. 432 of those would be enough to level up the party to 40. And then divide by CR10 to get CR 43.

Back to the regular formula, A creature 7 levels higher than a party give Party level * 3600 xp.

Now let's compare that, assume Dorukon and other we're already level 40. They would have to earn less than 40k exp each from the encounter to stay level 40 (240k total). A CR 47 creature gives a level 40 party 144,000 . Level 49, should be double that so too much. So CR 48 max.

How about if they were level 33, 292k exp needed for each, 1,752,000 total. CR 40 monster gives 118,800 exp up. So we get CR47.

Maybe there's something in between that gives a higher CR, if someone wants to do the calculations.

[blueblade]

Its CR should be similar to the Lady of Pain's.

This. CR: No.

[Zubrowka74]

So the question would be, what CR would the snarl be, if defeating it gave enough exp to level up six characters from level 3 to 40. (Let's assume Kraagor's share of the experience goes to oblivion)

IIRC you can only level once with any boost in XP. If an encounter nets you enough XP to pass two or more levels, you get the first one and you XP amount is set at halfway to the second. Or something like this.

Most likely, the OotScribble did not get the XP in one shot.

[Jay R]

I just went through a short speculation.

If the Snarl is far less powerful against mortals than the gods, sufficiently so that it even has a Challenge Rating, then why wouldn't the gods have sent a team of mortals to slay it?

So then I thought, how would they do that?

Well, they'd need to hold back the snarl until people were strong enough to face it. Then they'd need some way for people to reach it after that time. So there would have to be some sort of entryway available into the Snarl's prison. Then they'd need to come up with some reason for the adventuring party to care about the Snarl, and finally, the snarl would have to start coming out to be attacked ...

Oh. Right.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think people are misinterpreting that line. The actual quote is "Some have theorized since that the gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been".
Important takeaways:

This is not solid fact, it is only a theory.
"more vulnerable" does not mean that a mortal would survive. If it slays two gods in one round, then it slays one mortal (of a similar level) in one round.
Finally, it says "of the same level". This means that it would be a very high level character, just without divine ranks.

I think that when Soon and Kraagor are fighting the Snarl, they are only fighting a single tentacle, which is not as powerful as the whole thing, so they are able to survive.

[Thrillhouse]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

If this comic is accurate, the Snarl's claws can be fought and beaten back. Which could mean Laurin and Miron will try and fight this appendage...

[Red XIV]

The Snarl's CR: too high.

[SoC175]

If the Snarl is far less powerful against mortals than the gods, sufficiently so that it even has a Challenge Rating, then why wouldn't the gods have sent a team of mortals to slay it? A mortal of their level. Now were to get a level 60-80 mortal?

Oh. Right.Except that even Xykon is nowhere near deity level or the deities of the OotS world are just sissies (with planet-sized avatars if they want, but still sissies)

[Jay R]

A mortal of their level. Now were to get a level 60-80 mortal?

Not necessarily. Some have theorized that the gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a person of their level would have been. So possibly, a group of a lesser level could beat it.


Except that even Xykon is nowhere near deity level or the deities of the OotS world are just sissies (with planet-sized avatars if they want, but still sissies)

25% of them are dead. The Snarl killed two gods - one of them the god of war - in the first round of combat. Avoiding the Snarl and imprisoning it is a sane response.

[Mousedigits]

I'm a bit late, but....

Originally Posted by SaintRidley
Stats of the Snarl:
HP: Lots.
Armor Class: Can't touch this.
Saving Throws: Yes.
Attack: Successful - undoes target.
Challenge Rating: Too high
The CR on this thing is too damn high!http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1326450.1366834887!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/ny-governors-race.jpg