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Isomenes
2007-01-29, 01:00 PM
I'm trying to get a handle on the breakdown of costs for magical items, but I'm somewhat new to the mechanics of the SRD. Specifically, I'm getting confused by the variability of caster level for potions, scrolls and wands in contrast to fixed caster level for rods, staves, rings, and other wondrous items. For a wondrous item, is caster level determined by the minimum level needed to cast a given spell, or by the caster level of the creator at the time of creation? Can the caster cast the spell during creation at a lower level and thereby change the caster level?

Purely as an example, I created an amulet of Light. The price breakdown I understand runs as follows:

PC Wizard, CL 6th
Use-activated item: Spell level x CL x 2,000gp

light: 0.5 x 6 x 2,000gp = 6,000gp
50 charges (half base price) = 3,000gp

But couldn't it be

light: 0.5 x 1 x 2,000gp = 1,000gp
50 charges (half base price) = 500gp

if the caster cast the spell at 1st level? The variable effects would be those of a 1st-level caster, so the duration would be ten minutes per use. Not very useful insofar as a light spell goes, but it serves both as an example of ways to make magic items more accessible, and how they limit themselves in doing so. Does this make sense?

Also, is anyone else completely unimpressed with the rationalization about potions in the Complete Arcane (that they are the most effective form of delivering magical energy, perfected over hundreds of years)? Due to the rules for Craft and magical item creation, potion tiles and the like seem essentially out of reach for practical use until at least 20th--this should not be the case.

I have a crafty Bard, who makes his trade selling potion tiles--they have the advantage that they can't be ruined by a black dragon's corrupt water. But he's at 8th level, so even with a 20 on the skill roll for Craft (woodworking), he couldn't create a single 1st-level tile until seven weeks of max Craft rolls:

Wondrous Item materials cost: half base price
Craft (woodworking) ornate tile: DC 20 (arbitrary, but based on other items in the SRD)
Tile of cure light wounds: 1 x 8 x 50gp = 400gp = 4000sp
Max roll (31) x DC (20) = 620sp

In order to jump-start the trade, the DM allowed me to sink my remaining gold (we started at 8th) into the raw materials, as if I had already crafted the tiles. But it seems like that's all I would get, with no real payoff for trying to craft a potion tile without Brew Potion. Am I missing something here?

ThunderEagle
2007-01-29, 01:05 PM
The thing is, you still use Brew Potion to make a potion tile. They are exactly the same as potions, but look different (and have the advantages noted by you).

adanedhel9
2007-01-29, 01:47 PM
I'm trying to get a handle on the breakdown of costs for magical items

...

if the caster cast the spell at 1st level? The variable effects would be those of a 1st-level caster, so the duration would be ten minutes per use. Not very useful insofar as a light spell goes, but it serves both as an example of ways to make magic items more accessible, and how they limit themselves in doing so. Does this make sense?

...


This is exactly right. If you want another example, look at the various versions of wands of magic missile. The 1st-level version (1 missile) costs 750, the 3rd-level version (2 missiles) costs 2250, etc. Remember, though, you can never lower the caster level below the minimum to cast the spell. So you can't have a CL1 wand of cure moderate wounds, for example.

Darrin
2007-01-29, 02:03 PM
For a wondrous item, is caster level determined by the minimum level needed to cast a given spell, or by the caster level of the creator at the time of creation? Can the caster cast the spell during creation at a lower level and thereby change the caster level?


From the SRD:

"A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell."

The caster level is essentially up to the creator, and it's usually brought down to the minimum level necessary to cast the spell just so the item costs are much cheaper.

So yes, for your amulet of light, you'd want the caster level to be 1st, since no one in their right mind is going to buy a use-activated cantrip item for anything over 500 GP. (Unless it's something like a stone of Cure Minor Wounds, which requires some DM intervention to ixnay otherwise infinite healing gets way too horrendously cheap.) A low-level creator can also incorporate a higher-level spell that he may not be able to cast yet by getting help from another spellcaster, or by using scrolls/wands/etc., although you'll want to check that with the DM first.

You can fudge things a bit on the effects set by caster level (duration, range, etc.) with a little hand-waving and artistic license. Magic items that incorporate spell effects don't necessarily have to mimic the spell's stat block exactly... in fact, you get more colorful/interesting magic items if you don't copy the spell effects exactly.

For example, for your amulet of light, rather than worrying about the duration of a 1st-level spell running out, it's much easier to just call it a continuous effect and can be turned on/off at will.

However, particularly for the higher level spells, you can occasionally combine multiple castings at a lower caster level to add up to 24 hours, which then in effect becomes a continuous effect. For example, in 3.0 a Necklace of Adaptation required Water Breathing, a 3rd level spell, but 3 x 5 x 2000 = 30,000 GP, which is really expensive for a generally low-level utility effect. However, two Water Breathing castings per day at 5th is 20 hours, bump up the caster level to 6th or modify the price a bit to account for the extra 4 hours, and you can cut the cost by around 2/5ths, maybe 14,400 GP, which is slightly more reasonable.

In 3.5, they changed the prereq to Alter Self for some reason. 2 x 3 x 2000 = 18,000 GP, and they cut the price in half to 9,000 GP since you're not getting the full benefit of Alter Self, just the ability to breath normally in adverse conditions.

I'm not familiar with potion tiles, but creative use of Craft Wondrous Item can render most other item creation feats redundant. Need a one-shot item to buff yourself? Call it an "elixir" or a "pill" instead of potion. Need a fancy stick that casts X/Y/Z spells? Just don't call it a rod/wand/staff.

The Brew Potion feat is the most obvious, but the level restrictions after that get really silly. At 3rd level I can start building a Helm of Brilliance but I can't possibly understand the complexities of making a ring until 12th level? The level restrictions on item creation are arbitrary and unnecessary... you keep the players from making Ring of Magical Unicorn Wishes by requiring high-level spells, not dictating at what level they can take a feat.

Sorry, bit of a rant there. Magic item creation is more of a really elaborate performance art than science, even though there are supposedly formulas and tables given to work it all out mathematically.

Isomenes
2007-01-29, 02:10 PM
The thing is, you still use Brew Potion to make a potion tile. They are exactly the same as potions, but look different (and have the advantages noted by you).

Ah, ok. That makes things a little more tenable. Given that, however, it still takes 4 weeks for a bard to craft a second-level potion tile at max ranks and rolls, and first-level tiles are only able to come once a week. Compare this to a bard who crafts regular potions, able to outlay the gold and (assuming he has 350gp) get seven first level potions a week. Seems kind of a shafting, doesn't it?

Thomas
2007-01-29, 02:30 PM
"Brewing a potion requires one day."

Brewing a potion - any potion and all potions - requires one day. That's repeated both in the feat description for Brew Potion, and in the longer bit of rules about brewing potions.

It doesn't make a difference if it's a potion tile or magical fruit or whatever else. Those are brewed with the exact same rules, and function the same way. They also take one day to brew.

Isomenes
2007-01-29, 03:06 PM
"Brewing a potion requires one day."

Brewing a potion - any potion and all potions - requires one day. That's repeated both in the feat description for Brew Potion, and in the longer bit of rules about brewing potions.

It doesn't make a difference if it's a potion tile or magical fruit or whatever else. Those are brewed with the exact same rules, and function the same way. They also take one day to brew.

You're correct--the enspelling of a potion tile takes one day. But the creation of the tile itself requires use of the Craft skill, the rules of which bar the possibility of crafting even a cantrip potion tile in a single day until much higher levels than 8th. (To paraphrase, you craft your skill roll * the DC in silver pieces each week, or in coppers each day.)

At this point I'm just bemoaning the situation; I'm rather pleased at being corrected on the use of Brew Potion. :smallbiggrin:

Telonius
2007-01-29, 03:42 PM
You know, for this item I'd say that it would cost even less than that. An Everburning Torch only costs 110 gp, and the item you're talking about would be considerably less useful (not permanent, and limited number of charges). I'd only charge 50gp for it, if I were DMing.