LGBTAIitp #48: For a cuddly tomorrow!

[Miriel]

Hello, hello, welcome, one and all, to the forty-eigth iteration of our thread, the humble LGBTAI in the playground thread!

The AI is for All-Inclusive, because we have only so much space but everyone, regardless of orientation, direction, letter, acronym or chosen astrological symbol is welcome here!

We do, unfortunately, have a few rules. We are not an anarchical state! Or, we weren't until they voted we were? But shush.

1. We are primarily a support thread.
This means that the primary focus should be in helping people here feel better; about themselves, about their lives, about their problems. We are also an education thread, but when helping someone learn involves not supporting, we will default to support - Mostly. We are only mostly human, after all.

All of the other rules are basically precisions of rule #1.

2. If you want answers to triggering topics, spoiler-box or ask them privately.
Triggering topics are those which are likely to make other people feel bad, in any way whatsoever: for instance, rape, violence, bullying and many others may be triggering to some people. If someone, even just that one individual person, has a problem with a topic because it stirs demons best left in their pit, Do. Not. Bring. It. Up. Publically. Use a spoilerbox, and think carefully about whether this is the place to broach the topic at all (see rule #1: "We are primarily a support thread.")

If you have questions or need help on something that involves triggering topics, please use spoiler tags and label your spoilers for trigger warnings. When in doubt, put trigger warnings.

3. Avoid discussing politics or religion.
It doesn't matter how much these two topics intersect with our forum topic, they are verboten. Sometimes, hints are... Looked over, such as "man, in my countery being gay sucks", but detail is right out, and even that could be considered willful disregard. Be Careful. As the moderators themselves often say, if you aren't sure, Don't.

4. Do not discuss moral justification.
No one here is going to discuss whether or not it's Right" or "Okay" to be LGBTAEIOUsometimesY or anything else. It's not topical, it's not relevant. We are, and we are here to cope with that and with the stresses it causes.
And no, my joking acronym doesn't constitute considering this rule less important.

5. Do not opst sexually explicit content.
It's against forum rules, it's against decorum, and it will get us shut down pretty fast. What adults do behind closed doors is cool, and allusion is fine. Anything that could involve a diagram, though? No.

6. Avoid unfriendly debates.
Several topics of conversation have created huge arguments that made several people uncomfortable and defied our goal of being a support thread. This is especially true debates of definition. These do not always end well, and are best avoided.

This thread has a past of traumatic experiences which we would rather not repeat, and some topics which have created (in)famous rows include:
- the precise distinction between bi- and pansexual;
- what is or isn't a polyamorous relationship;
- whether transgender is more correct than transgendered.
(Other topics may be added to the list.)
Unless you need support or help about this, please refrain from bringing up these topics.

Also, if a conversation that is not about support runs long, spoiler it if possible, even if it is polite.

Glossary of Common Terms

And, for reference, here is a list of commonly used words and definitions by our community. Please understand that this list is currently undergoing construction right now. Any contributions to the list are appreciated.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*

LGBTAI: LGBT+Asexual/Allies+Intersex+All Inclusive

Lagerbeta: A fine brewski to be drunk by all - the name comes from the above abbreviation.

QUILTBAG:
Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Unidentified
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay, Genderqueer

Where a word below is in italics, that means it has it's own entry on the list.

A note on labels: many of these labels are seemingly interchangeable, and for some people they are. However, please do not presume to correct or judge another person's use of a label. Bisexual and Pansexual are especially tricky in this regard, as are transgender and transsexual to a lesser degree.
Often the difference in why one person feels one label is appropriate and not another is deeply personal. If you wish to know more it is probably a topic to seek private advice on, from one of the people listed in the next section.


AFAB/AMAB: Assigned Female/Male at Birth

Agendered: Someone who lacks a gender.

Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.

Androsexual: A person who is attracted to men.

Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction.

Binary, The: See: Gender Binary.

Bisexual: 1. attracted to two genders; 2. attracted to one's own gender and another gender; 3. attracted to various genders; 4. attracted to people regardless of gender; 5. ask the person who says they're bi what exactly they mean by that. See also Pansexual

Cis: See: Cisgender

Cisgender (CG): Somebody whose gender and sex align.

Demisexual: A person who is sexually attracted to someone(s) only after they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.

Dysphoria: The disassociation Trans* people feel with their own body.

Male-to-Female (MtF): Someone who was assigned male at birth, but is female. (AKA: trans woman)

Female: See: Woman

Female-to-Male (FtM): Someone who was assigned female at birth, but is male. (AKA: trans man)

FAAB: Female Assigned at Birth.

Feminine: Something generally associated by society with women.

FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. Associated primarily with MAAB Trans people

FtM: See: Female to Male

Gay: A man who is attracted to men.

Gender Binary: The commonly held notion that there are only men and women on two extremes, with nothing in between.

Gender Expression (GE): How one expresses their Gender Identity to society.

Gender Identity (GI): How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other".

Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between different genders.

Genderqueer (GQ): Someone who is not of a binary gender; someone who is not male or female.

Gynosexual: A person who is attracted to women.

Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.

Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.

HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's tend to progestrogens, oestrogens and androgen blockers, while FtM's take testosterone almost exculsively.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.

MAAB: Male Assigned at Birth.

Male-to-Female (MtF): Someone who was assigned male at birth, but is female. (AKA: trans woman)

Man/men: A cis man or trans man. Male.

Masculine: Something generally associated by society with men.

Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender. See also Bisexual

Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.

Presenting: Trans* shorthand for appearing as their preferred gender, regardless of any HRT, SRS or other changes.

Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender primarily, with the asterisk denoting that the trans- prefix could be followed by any number of appropriate words. It also includes other labels, and is a catch-all term for people who identify as something other than their biological sex at birth.

Transgender: Used in reference to a person whose sex(body) and gender(mind) are at odds or do not match. A transgender person can also identify as genderqueer, transsexual, or may use transgender as their only identity.

Transitioning: The process a Trans* person undergoes to move to their preferred gender. Often includes HRT, SRS, FFS.

Transsexual: In common terms the same as transgender above. In medical terms refers specifically to people who wish to transition from male to female or female to male, not accommodating any other options.

SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.

Sexual Orientation (SO): How one identifies who they are attracted to.

Significant Other(s) (SO): Person(s) you are in a relationship with.

Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa. Also a person who feels they do not identify with any other gender identity.

Woman: A cis woman or trans woman. Female.

Allies: Hetereosexual-Cisgender people who support equality for sexual, gender, and romantic minorities.


Private Consultation.

We have a list of people whoa re willing and able to discuss topics that may not be thread-appropriate but are still topical. They can be reached by Personal Message (PM), thought they may not respond immediately, or may be on sabbatical.


Name: Especially familiar with the topic(s) of
KenderWizard: General/basics, gender and feminism, bisexuality
Musashi: General/basics, asexuality/demisexuality, depression
noparlpf: General/basics, asexuality, greysexuality, biology, Skype
Lea Plath: Genderfluidity
Lycunadari: Genderqueer and agendered
Eldest: General/basics, bisexuality, polyamory, pansexuality will Skype(voice if needed, no video)
HMS Sophia: Trans stuff (esp hormones)
Lix Lorn: General/basics
Eirala: Trans stuff (esp emotional issues), Skype(no voice or video, however)
Absol197: Gender identity issues
Warkitty: Academic/technical discussions
Lentrax: General/basics, depression, bullying
Wormwood74: Transgender legal issues, transgender outside contacts
Astrella: GSRM rights, feminism, trans stuff, Skype
Asteron Questar: Relationships, depression
Mystic Muse: Skype-y goodness.
Socratov: Skype-ness
Chess435: Skype
Irish Musician: PM, Rants/Venting
Metditto: PM/Skype for L, T, GQ, BDSM(Off-thread or Spoiler Triggered), demisexual, feminism, therapy, depression, dissociative identities
inuyasha: Shoulder on which to cry, someone to listen
Partysan: PM/Skype, polyamory, pansexuality, BDSM(Off-thread or Spoiler Triggered), Rants/Venting
TaiLiu: General Transgender information, transphobia.
Enrico Dandolo (Caroline) : Trans stuff, mental health, feminism, asexuality, hugs. PM first, Skype chat if asked.
Rain Dragon: Trans stuff (FtM). Lurks at the moment, but still available by PM.
Kesnit: Trans stuff (FtM), legal issues.

Some people are also willing to talk off-board, through Skype or email or other means; this is especially useful if your question involves board-forbidden topics such as religion or politics. Also, we can't (and ethically shouldn't!) give medical advice. If you need medical advice, please see a professional!

And as a parting note, I will say that even though moderators do not read PMs, they are still part of the forum and still subject to forums rules. Non-allowed topics and discussion should NOT be conducted via PM.


Previous Incarnations

Like the Glorious and Unconquered Sun, we have risen, lived, died, and risen anew, with many faces, many voices, many hearts. In this past, much can be found, both good, and bad, should one be brave or perhaps, foolish, enough to seek it.


LGBT people in the playground

LGBT people in the playground - part II

LGBTitp - part III

LGBTitp 4: We are a family?

LGBTitp - Part Five

LGBTitp - Part Six

LGBTitp - Part Seven

LGBTitp - Part Eight

LGBTitp - Part Nine

LGBTAitp - Part Ten

LGBTAitp - Part Eleven

LGBTAitp - Part Twelve

LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

LGBTAitp - Part Fourteen

LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

LGBTAitp - Part Sixteen

LGBTAitp - Part Seventeen

LGBTAitp - Part Eighteen!

LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty - Critical Hit!

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty-One - BLACKJACK!

LGBTAitP Part 22: The Best There Is

LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

LGBTAitP: Alphabet Soup-with 24 different Vitamins!

LGBTAitP part 25: Doing Away With Subtitles

LGBTAitP 26: No Time For Snappy Titles

LGBTAitP 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax

LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!

LGBTAitP #29: The Rainbow Outreach Program

LGBTAitP 30: Free Cuddles (Enquire Within)

LGBTAitP #31: Cuddles Are On Back Order. Have Some Snuggles!

LGBTAitp #32: The Great Plushie Invasion!

LGBTAitp #33: The Thread at the End of the Rainbow!

LGTAitP #34: <3!!

LGBTAitp #35: What Midlife Crisis? :3

LGBTAitp #36: May Contain Bites!

LGBTAitP #37: Once upon a time...

LGBTAitP #38: Once More With Feeling!!

LGBTAitP #38: Making Your Way in the World Today....

LGBTAitP #40: Technicolour Partyboat

LGBTAitp #41 - Imprecise Terminology Supercenter

LGBTAitp #42: Better Than Skittles/The Meaning of Life!

LGBTAitp #43 [Insert snappy subtitle here]

LGBTAIitP #44: Quick, We Need To Vote A New Title!

LGBTAIitP #45: Rainbow Anarchy

LGBTAitP #46: I Cast Prismatic Hugs

LGBTAIitp #47: Weather Control Central






Webcomics that touch on... Well, everything related to the thread.
Venus Envy. (http://www.venusenvycomic.com/) Long dead webcomic. The creator has chosen not to continue it and move forward in life.
Rain. (http://rain.thecomicseries.com/comics/first/) A story of a MtF girl in high school.
Khaos Komix. (http://www.khaoskomix.com/)As the creator puts it(from his site): "A complete GLBTWTFBBQ comic about gender and sexuality. (Trigger warnings for EVERYTHING and nothing is safe for work.)"
Always Raining Here. (http://alwaysraininghere.com/index.php/first-page/) "Adrian is heartsick, Carter is horny. This is a story about their misadventures as awkward teenagers as they fumble through unrequited romances."
Tripping over you. (http://trippingoveryou.com/comic/gmorning-sunshine/)An awkward blind date leads to better options.
Questionable Content. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/) The LGBTA characters are well done, and not stereotypes.
What's normal anyway. (http://whatsnormalanyway.net/?p=93) "What’s Normal Anyway? is a comic that discusses the trans male experience through the story of Mel, who takes the big risk of being himself and transitioning from female to male."
Princess. (http://the-princess.funonthe.net/) A webcomic.
Twokinds. (http://twokinds.keenspot.com/) Keveak: "It generally portrays GRSM matters positively and is quite a nice tale overall."
Misfile (Misfile.com) The Rose Dragon: "Ash is a young boy who, as a result of a screw-up in Heaven, gets stuck in a girl's body in a life he doesn't recognize, and has to deal with the changes and challenges of his new body while trying to get back his old life. Supernatural hijinks and car racing are involved."
I know I missed a few webcomics, and if anyone finds more, feel free to PM them to me with a brief description, and I will add them.


The Brand New LGBTA Arts & Crafts Thread! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288941)

[turkishproverb]

Hi again! *hugs new thread*

*offers cookies to people coming to it*

[Asta Kask]

Yohoo!

New thread sighted! Get ready to cuddle!

*takes cookies*

[Jormengand]

Yohoo!

New thread sighted! Get ready to cuddle!

*takes cookies*

*Cuddles people who want it*

Thread! THREAD!!! Yaaay!

[Lentrax]

*sets out pretzels and cake*

So. How is everyone today?

[Asta Kask]

Not particularly good, but that's par for the course this time of year. At least I have my cats.

[WarKitty]

*begins duplicating self to properly apply kitty cuddles to everyone*

[Philemonite]

*sets out pretzels and cake*

So. How is everyone today?

Seriously pissed, gonna start biting soon.:furious:

[Jormengand]

Seriously pissed, gonna start biting soon.:furious:

If you need someone to bite, bite me. I don't mind, and it's good to have someone to take out your anger on.

What's wrong?

[Philemonite]

If you need someone to bite, bite me. I don't mind, and it's good to have someone to take out your anger on.

What's wrong?

People are really doing their best to get on me nerves today.

And as a cherry on the top my colleague is going to be almost an hour late.:smallfurious:

I am working first shift, I worked double shift yesterday, and second shift the day before that.

I can't keep my eyes opened.

:furious::furious::furious::furious::furious:

Also, I thought I had a huge deficit in the registry, but fortunately that was a mistake.
There was actually a little more than there was supposed to, so yay, free money.

[Mono Vertigo]

[Insert here usual comment about the smell of a new thread in the morning, even when it's not morning]

Facing some... frustration(?) concerning a game. It's not a tangent this time!
I had so far managed to ignore the ending to Naoto's Social Link, where she finally says without ambiguity "I feel finally comfortable enough to consider myself a woman"; she only had a masculine lower-case persona to defy crappy traditional gender roles.
Now I found out, it bugs me a lot. Not entirely sure why. Maybe it's because it somehow kinda justifies retroactively several instances of disrespect Naoto suffered (blatant breach of privacy to find out her measurements, the hot bath fiasco, etc). Not that they're okay either way, particularly when you remember she hadn't "come out" as actually a girl to anyone when they happen generally. And revealing someone's measurements without their consent is vile anyway, whether they're trans* or cis, boy or girl.
Or maybe it's because Naoto was a sort of BF-expy to me (albeit in an "evil twin" kind of way*). That the character turns out to have been "just confused all along" rubs me the wrong way because of this.
In fact, it rubs me the wrong way, period. "See, she was a girl all along, she was just confused because of gender roles!"
All I know is that BF probably already knows, having completed the link, and doesn't care. So perhaps I'm overreacting, or something. Am I?
Meh.
Well, in my fantasy headcanon, Naoto is still totally a boy. Or agender.

Now though that makes that stupid argument I had with those clingy creeps in that con twice as embarrassing for every single party involved. You two, if you're reading this, I shall quote the Dude and declare that while you may not have been wrong, you were [REDACTED].



*Yeah, we were making very funny faces during the whole rescue arc.
Funnily, I also saw my "evil twin" in the form of Yumi, one of the Sun's social link. Her father dying while she was still in high school is the most major event in her life, however, while her story uses the same elements as those in my own life, they were twisted around. When I got tired of her whining even though she had a chance to say goodbye to her father, I decided I hated her**.
**It's not that being visibly depressed in that situation is bad, it's just that I felt like I was being taunted by the narrative. "Hey, watch her lose her bad father slowly but bitch about having the opportunity to tell him goodbye, and remember how much it still hurts to have lost your good dad suddenly! Oh, by the way, she has an Amazing Magical Protagonist to help her along and heal her scars faster. Not like you."

[KenderWizard]

I feel crap too, all stressed and worthless... I hope tomorrow really is cuddly!

[alaalba_123]

I feel crap too, all stressed and worthless... I hope tomorrow really is cuddly!
Me three. Also, hai new thread. Hai people. I'm tired.

Also, on a happy note Valentines Day is finally over. So yay.

[Mina Kobold]

*sets out pretzels and cake*

So. How is everyone today?

*Eats pretzels and replaces them with danishes*

Swinging. Well, not in the "What a swinging day! :D" way, or the sexy times way... Shifting? Mood-swingy? ^_^'

Started out kinda sleepy and annoyed at some stuff in video games, then got moderately wanting-to-do-stuff with Star Trek (Watching TOS, turns out it has a more diverse racial cast than a lot of modern stuff (though Sleepy Hollow, Orange is the New Black and such do sound even more diverse on many axes), even if it's reeeeaaally obvious that gender and sexuality is seen from a particular perspective), then got all apathetic and down (depressingly common for me) before getting better and more "Yay! DoStuffFuns!" around the time it got dark. Hoping I'll stay here, but that's a bit rare nowadays. >_>

Also:

*Offers hugs, new pretzels and listening to Asteron, Kender and everybody else who could use them*

[Astrella]

*hugs everyone who needs / wants them*

I got some nice femmy glasses yesterday. Well, I don't have them yet, they're ordered and will likely have them next week. The frames are pretty big, so you can see my eyes properly and they're nice dark purple that fades out towards the bottom. ^^

[Asta Kask]

Why are we so humble in our thread-making anyway? Shouldn't we stand tall and proud?

[Proud Tortoise]

*Drapes streamers over everything. EVERYthing.*

I like the number 48. For those who are uninformed about it:

48=2x2x2x2x3
48 is a highly totient number as well as a Størmer number.
It is a semiperfect number.
It is one less than 49 which is 7^2.
It is the atomic number of Cadmium.
It is the international phone code for Poland.

[Lentrax]

So, all you people are making my cold look like its the best thing in the world.

*hugs*

[Akowrules]

Yaaaaaay new thread!!

[Asta Kask]

So I just learned a new term:

Gold Star Lesbian: A "Gold Star Lesbian" is a lesbian who has never had sexual relations with a man and does not intend to.

Is this really a distinction that's necessary to make? Or is it just a way to say "I'm more lesbian than you are"?

And are there really that many lesbian who intend to have sexual relations with a man? Wouldn't that make them bisexual?

I am so confused right now.

[Astrella]

Yeah, it's a pretty ****ty term. It's not always used badly, but there's often enough a connotation of "I'm a truer / better lesbian than you". (Not to mention that's it's also sometimes used to be ****ty to lesbians who date trans women.)

[Moonwolf727]

Welp, since there's a new thread I suppose this is my chance to stop lurking and actually join in again :smallredface:

[ArlEammon]

Can I ask for PMs?

[Lentrax]

You don't have to lurk out there. Just come in, put your feet up, have some pretzels.

[Mono Vertigo]

If that's a thing, and people are actually happy it exists, then there should also be Gold Star Heterosexuals, Gold Star Asexuals, etc...
... until you reach the point of Gold Star Pansexuals. And Jack Harkness therefore becomes the only Gold Star Pansexual, for there is nothing and no one that he wouldn't want to have sex with as long as they gave consent. At which points he becomes the de facto king of sexual orientations, and declares Gold Stars [Orientation] is just a silly thing. Because if sexual orientation is a contest, then he wins forever, and if it's not, why try to make it one?
But mostly, I wouldn't be unhappy in a world where Jack Harkness rules over something.
No, I was not trying to make a clever point this time. I just wanted to imagine Jack Harkness as king of something and share the image. :smallbiggrin:

[ArlEammon]

What would happen if Vaarsuvius is a Gold Star Elf?

[Asta Kask]

You mean "only has had sex with Elves"? :smallconfused:

[Eldest]

*begins duplicating self to properly apply kitty cuddles to everyone*

*helps spread the feline hugs*


I feel crap too, all stressed and worthless... I hope tomorrow really is cuddly!

And you get one of the above! *hugs*


*Drapes streamers over everything. EVERYthing.*

I like the number 48. For those who are uninformed about it:

48=2x2x2x2x3
48 is a highly totient number as well as a Størmer number.
It is a semiperfect number.
It is one less than 49 which is 7^2.
It is the atomic number of Cadmium.
It is the international phone code for Poland.

It is, however, not a power of two, which makes my programmer side very disappointed in the number.


So I just learned a new term:

Gold Star Lesbian: A "Gold Star Lesbian" is a lesbian who has never had sexual relations with a man and does not intend to.

Is this really a distinction that's necessary to make? Or is it just a way to say "I'm more lesbian than you are"?

And are there really that many lesbian who intend to have sexual relations with a man? Wouldn't that make them bisexual?

I am so confused right now.

It's also a thing for gay people (Gold Star Gay) and no, I personally don't think it's a needed distinction. However, because a lesbian has had sex with a man doesn't make them bisexual.


Welp, since there's a new thread I suppose this is my chance to stop lurking and actually join in again :smallredface:

*waves at* Hiiii!

[ArlEammon]

You mean "only has had sex with Elves"? :smallconfused:

Well I hope so. He/She is married to one.

[Proud Tortoise]

If that's a thing, and people are actually happy it exists, then there should also be Gold Star Heterosexuals, Gold Star Asexuals, etc...
... until you reach the point of Gold Star Pansexuals. And Jack Harkness therefore becomes the only Gold Star Pansexual, for there is nothing and no one that he wouldn't want to have sex with as long as they gave consent. At which points he becomes the de facto king of sexual orientations, and declares Gold Stars [Orientation] is just a silly thing. Because if sexual orientation is a contest, then he wins forever, and if it's not, why try to make it one?
But mostly, I wouldn't be unhappy in a world where Jack Harkness rules over something.
No, I was not trying to make a clever point this time. I just wanted to imagine Jack Harkness as king of something and share the image. :smallbiggrin:

XD This reminds me of the fandom discussion. "I'm a better fan than you bluh bluh"

[Mono Vertigo]

XD This reminds me of the fandom discussion. "I'm a better fan than you bluh bluh"

Technically, he's omnisexual, but I figured that for the sake of the joke, I should at least make the effort of using a real orientation. :smallwink:
More seriously, there are also asexuals who claim they're better because they've never had sex and do not ever intend to. By which I mean they seem to believe they're better than sexuals and "lesser" asexuals. So, Gold Star Asexuals, I guess. Sexual orientation elitism is pretty damn stupid.

[Asta Kask]

It's also a thing for gay people (Gold Star Gay) and no, I personally don't think it's a needed distinction. However, because a lesbian has had sex with a man doesn't make them bisexual.

Well, no. But if they intend to have sex with a man...

(of course, you can be bisexual without intending to have sex with a man. the only requirement is that man-sex isn't off the table)

[Jormengand]

Welp, since there's a new thread I suppose this is my chance to stop lurking and actually join in again :smallredface:

*Drags you into the light.*
*Hugs you.*

Stop lurking. You're too cute to lurk.

[Mina Kobold]

Well, no. But if they intend to have sex with a man...

(of course, you can be bisexual without intending to have sex with a man. the only requirement is that man-sex isn't off the table)

More if they feel attraction and a desire to have sexy times. Lots of people sadly intend to have sex because society is very strict on "this is how relationships are, do this. No buts" and painting heterosexuality as the only legitimate thing and as something necessary not to be wrong. Which is really really damaging and hurtful, but sadly far too common an environment to live in. ;_;

On the gold-star topic: So the reason I never got one for school was that people are hoarding them and not giving them out to anyone but those who stick to purely being single-category sexualities? Meanies. D:

[Mono Vertigo]

On the gold-star topic: So the reason I never got one for school was that people are hoarding them and not giving them out to anyone but those who stick to purely being single-category sexualities? Meanies. D:

Ayup. I got an Asexual Golden Star, which I lost, but in exchange I received a BF-sexual Golden Star. Yeah, I cheat, so what. :smallbiggrin:

[Asta Kask]

You cheat? On your boyfriend? :smalltongue:

[Lentrax]

And all I got in school were gumball stickers...

granted I got a soda when I collected twenty of them, and I got two a day on average. but still... woulda been nice to get a star.,..

[SiuiS]

So I just learned a new term:

Gold Star Lesbian: A "Gold Star Lesbian" is a lesbian who has never had sexual relations with a man and does not intend to.

Is this really a distinction that's necessary to make? Or is it just a way to say "I'm more lesbian than you are"?

And are there really that many lesbian who intend to have sexual relations with a man? Wouldn't that make them bisexual?

I am so confused right now.

It's not a lesbian term. We had a comic some threads back mentioning a gold-star gay (who was a man, making him not a lesbian), who brought it up because he was confused that people wanted to deny that because he dated transmen.

It's not intention. A woman who, until she comes out as gay, shows the 'usual, expected' interests in men and who possibly tries to ignore their inclinations and attempts relations with men anyway, would not have that gold star.


Welp, since there's a new thread I suppose this is my chance to stop lurking and actually join in again :smallredface:

Hi again!


If that's a thing, and people are actually happy it exists, then there should also be Gold Star Heterosexuals, Gold Star Asexuals, etc...

There are.

[Asta Kask]

There are.

There are Gold-Star Heterosexuals? I suppose I would be one then.

...although I've been in a MFM threesome...

...although I was concentrating on her...

What is a woman? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58ysCOIXXRM)

What is a man? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2PUiFBVjO0)

Look through the entire videos.

[Jormengand]

...although I've been in a MFM threesome...

...although I was concentrating on her...

[Obligatory Lonely Island reference here.]

[Asta Kask]

Lonely Island? :smallconfused:

Explain to a culturally challenged old man.

[ArlEammon]

. . . so.
If anyone is available for some advice giving or whatever my in-box is empty.

[Lycunadari]

*offers hugs for everyone who needs them/wants them*


Welp, since there's a new thread I suppose this is my chance to stop lurking and actually join in again :smallredface:
Hi! *waves*


I don't think I get any Golden Stars.:<

[Philemonite]

. . . so.
If anyone is available for some advice giving or whatever my in-box is empty.

I'm always here for you.:smallwink:

[Miriel]

Well I hope so. He/She is married to one.
Not anymore, as of 679.

Btw, I'm sort of available by PM. Should be doing serious work though. You know how it is...

[ArlEammon]

I'm always here for you.:smallwink:

I have to go now, but I'll be back. . . :D

::Douglas MacArthur:: "I shall return!"

[KenderWizard]

Well I hope so. He/She is married to one.

Well, V could have had sex with someone else before marrying Inky.

Also, feel free, when asking for PMs, to actually ping someone. We can't tell if someone else has already PM'd you or not, but you can just shoot a PM to anyone who said they were open, or to anyone in the list in the first post. :smallsmile:



And you get one of the above! *hugs*


Yay! *cuddles*

[Eldest]

Well, no. But if they intend to have sex with a man...

(of course, you can be bisexual without intending to have sex with a man. the only requirement is that man-sex isn't off the table)

If they identify as a lesbian, they're a lesbian. My approach on the matter. :smalltongue:


Not anymore, as of 679.

Btw, I'm sort of available by PM. Should be doing serious work though. You know how it is...

Technically I think that's only the start of the divorce proceedings, but I dunno.

[Miriel]

Technically I think that's only the start of the divorce proceedings, but I dunno.

V's say they won't contest the divorce.

[Lycunadari]

Well, V could have had sex with someone else before marrying Inky.

Or V could have cheated on Inky, or their relationship could have been non-exclusive or they could have threesomes with someone else... Lots of options for V to not have a Golden Star. :smalltongue:

[Asta Kask]

Were they good for each other anyway?

[Eldest]

V's say they won't contest the divorce.

Which doesn't necessarily mean it's gone through yet. Bureaucratic delay and all that. But that's just a nitpick.

[Asta Kask]

You get a Bronze Star for valor... so a Bronze Star heterosexual would be one who went to bed with someone really scary?

[Irish Musician]

Welcome lovely happy new people.

Hugs for those that want them.

Cookies for ALL! :smallsmile:

M

[Thufir]

And are there really that many lesbian who intend to have sexual relations with a man? Wouldn't that make them bisexual?

It could make them whatever the number is on the Kinsey scale that's "Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual" or however it's phrased. So they still identify as lesbian but there could be some men who would be exceptions.
Homoflexible would be another term which might be used for that.


Technically, he's omnisexual, but I figured that for the sake of the joke, I should at least make the effort of using a real orientation. :smallwink:

Hey, some people may identify as omnisexual, who're you to say it's not a real orientation?
It's certainly accurate enough for Jack Harkness.


(of course, you can be bisexual without intending to have sex with a man. the only requirement is that man-sex isn't off the table)

Excuse me, I think you will find that many people have been actively bisexual without any of their man-sex being on tables. :smalltongue:

[Astrella]

Found this bra-fitting guide for trans women on Reddit, might be helpful for people here? (http://www.reddit.com/r/ABraThatFits/comments/1q2j3q/looking_for_feedback_on_the_trans_guide_warning/)

[Lentrax]

Excuse me, I think you will find that many people have been actively bisexual without any of their man-sex being on tables. :smalltongue:

Tables have some very good uses though. I know I have found more than one way to include them in a great many of my intimate encounters.

[ArlEammon]

Tables have some very good uses though. I know I have found more than one way to include them in a great many of my intimate encounters.

My TOS-Sense is tingling.:smalltongue:

[Asta Kask]

The Periodic Table, for instance.

[Coidzor]

Facing some... frustration(?) concerning a game. It's not a tangent this time!
I had so far managed to ignore the ending to Naoto's Social Link, where she finally says without ambiguity "I feel finally comfortable enough to consider myself a woman"; she only had a masculine lower-case persona to defy crappy traditional gender roles.
Now I found out, it bugs me a lot. Not entirely sure why. Maybe it's because it somehow kinda justifies retroactively several instances of disrespect Naoto suffered (blatant breach of privacy to find out her measurements, the hot bath fiasco, etc). Not that they're okay either way, particularly when you remember she hadn't "come out" as actually a girl to anyone when they happen generally. And revealing someone's measurements without their consent is vile anyway, whether they're trans* or cis, boy or girl.
Or maybe it's because Naoto was a sort of BF-expy to me (albeit in an "evil twin" kind of way*). That the character turns out to have been "just confused all along" rubs me the wrong way because of this.
In fact, it rubs me the wrong way, period. "See, she was a girl all along, she was just confused because of gender roles!"
All I know is that BF probably already knows, having completed the link, and doesn't care. So perhaps I'm overreacting, or something. Am I?
Meh.
Well, in my fantasy headcanon, Naoto is still totally a boy. Or agender.

Now though that makes that stupid argument I had with those clingy creeps in that con twice as embarrassing for every single party involved. You two, if you're reading this, I shall quote the Dude and declare that while you may not have been wrong, you were [REDACTED].



*Yeah, we were making very funny faces during the whole rescue arc.
Funnily, I also saw my "evil twin" in the form of Yumi, one of the Sun's social link. Her father dying while she was still in high school is the most major event in her life, however, while her story uses the same elements as those in my own life, they were twisted around. When I got tired of her whining even though she had a chance to say goodbye to her father, I decided I hated her**.
**It's not that being visibly depressed in that situation is bad, it's just that I felt like I was being taunted by the narrative. "Hey, watch her lose her bad father slowly but bitch about having the opportunity to tell him goodbye, and remember how much it still hurts to have lost your good dad suddenly! Oh, by the way, she has an Amazing Magical Protagonist to help her along and heal her scars faster. Not like you."

The main thing is that like Kanji, you can't know the truth despite seeking it, because the protagonist is a reality-warper, and observation changes the nature of the observed.

So at the end of the day, it's ambiguous what happened even if the result isn't. Granted, that probably doesn't particularly help.

Also, I get the weirdest feeling of deja vu... :smallconfused:


So I just learned a new term:

[I]Gold Star Lesbian: A "Gold Star Lesbian" is a lesbian who has never had sexual relations with a man and does not intend to.

Is this really a distinction that's necessary to make? Or is it just a way to say "I'm more lesbian than you are"?

And are there really that many lesbian who intend to have sexual relations with a man? Wouldn't that make them bisexual?

I am so confused right now.

This came up on the facebook group earlier, but it was about a gay man who was religiously defending his Gold Star Gay status against people who contended that it didn't count because he's had sex with trans men.

Like many things, it probably is entirely dependent upon how much people read into it, so it's either as meaningless as getting a gold star in kindergarten or some kind of sign of superiority or something inbetween or something completely different.


Technically, he's omnisexual, but I figured that for the sake of the joke, I should at least make the effort of using a real orientation. :smallwink:
More seriously, there are also asexuals who claim they're better because they've never had sex and do not ever intend to. By which I mean they seem to believe they're better than sexuals and "lesser" asexuals. So, Gold Star Asexuals, I guess. Sexual orientation elitism is pretty damn stupid.

I always thought that was an expected side effect of people choosing to declare themselves better than others in the short-hand for their self-identifying term. And that's the leading reason as to why I avoid using that term if I can help it.

IIRC, they just cross the line to being out-and-out antisexuals when they go to that extreme of thinking they're superior to everyone who isn't just like them.


Well, no. But if they intend to have sex with a man...

(of course, you can be bisexual without intending to have sex with a man. the only requirement is that man-sex isn't off the table)

Don't even try to wrap your head around the reasons why a lesbian would have sex with a man. That way lies madness. And headaches. Okay, mostly just headaches.


There are Gold-Star Heterosexuals? I suppose I would be one then.

What is a man? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2PUiFBVjO0)

No, of course not, that's just expected. You don't get any special prizes for being default. :smalltongue:

A miserable little pile of secrets, of course. (http://youtu.be/OMTizJemHO8?t=33s) :smalltongue:


Excuse me, I think you will find that many people have been actively bisexual without any of their man-sex being on tables. :smalltongue:

Mores the pity, even if that is one way to avoid getting splinters.

[Lentrax]

The Periodic Table, for instance.

Well you know they say the key to any good relationship is chemistry...

[Coidzor]

Well you know they say the key to any good relationship is chemistry...

Please do not blow up or otherwise destroy any tables without adult supervision.

[Lentrax]

Please do not blow up or otherwise destroy any tables without adult supervision.

Can I count myself as an adult?

Would my clone count as supervision?

[Asta Kask]

No, of course not, that's just expected. You don't get any special prizes for being default. :smalltongue:

'What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an Angel! in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world! The paragon of animals! And yet to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me; no, nor Woman neither; though by your smiling you seem to say so."

Oh, give me a clone
Of my own flesh and bone
With its Y-chromosome changed to X
And when it is grown
Then my own little clone
Will be of the opposite sex.

(Chorus)
Clone, clone of my own,
With your Y-Chromosome changed to X
And when I'm alone
With my own little clone
We will both think of nothing but sex.

Oh, give me a clone
In my sorrowful moan
A clone that is wholly my own.
And if she's an X
Of the feminine sex
Oh, what fun we will have when we're prone.

(Chorus)

My heart's not of stone,
As I've frequently shown
When alone with my own little X
And after we've dined
I am sure we will find
Better incest than Oedipus Rex.

(Chorus)

Why should such sex vex
Or disturb or perplex
Or induce a disparaging tone.
After all, don't you see
Since we're both of us me
When we're having sex, I'm alone.

(Chorus)

And after I'm done
She will still have her fun
For I'll clone myself twice ere I die.
And this time without fail,
They'll be both of them male
And they'll ravage her by and by.

(Chorus)

(By Randall Garrett and Isaac Asimov)

[Heliomance]

So I just learned a new term:

Gold Star Lesbian: A "Gold Star Lesbian" is a lesbian who has never had sexual relations with a man and does not intend to.

Is this really a distinction that's necessary to make? Or is it just a way to say "I'm more lesbian than you are"?

And are there really that many lesbian who intend to have sexual relations with a man? Wouldn't that make them bisexual?

I am so confused right now.

Relevant. (http://comics.billroundy.com/?p=1116)

Warning: Slightly NSFW.

[Miriel]

Tables have some very good uses though. I know I have found more than one way to include them in a great many of my intimate encounters.
In speed dating, your potential partners are rolled out of the Random Encounters table.

[Heliomance]

Apparently my grandmother's worried that if I transition, I'll regret it and that I'll have ruined my life as a guy, and have to detransition and stuff. Does anyone know where to find statistics on regret rates and detransitioning and stuff? I remember seeing something suggesting that the regret rates for SRS are staggeringly lower than for other elective surgeries, but I don't remember where I saw it. Anyone know?

[Eirala]

Apparently my grandmother's worried that if I transition, I'll regret it and that I'll have ruined my life as a guy, and have to detransition and stuff. Does anyone know where to find statistics on regret rates and detransitioning and stuff? I remember seeing something suggesting that the regret rates for SRS are staggeringly lower than for other elective surgeries, but I don't remember where I saw it. Anyone know?

I've never seen actual statistics, though everytime the regret rate comes up i heard / read that it was really, really low, not only for SRS but also for HRT.

[Miriel]

Apparently my grandmother's worried that if I transition, I'll regret it and that I'll have ruined my life as a guy, and have to detransition and stuff. Does anyone know where to find statistics on regret rates and detransitioning and stuff? I remember seeing something suggesting that the regret rates for SRS are staggeringly lower than for other elective surgeries, but I don't remember where I saw it. Anyone know?
I've seen 1-2%. Nothing higher.

With hormones, the bad reactions I've heard of were mostly that it didn't do enough feminizing changes, not that it ruined a perfect male life.

[SiuiS]

You get a Bronze Star for valor... so a Bronze Star heterosexual would be one who went to bed with someone really scary?

I qualify my exes for that! =D
And Braz actually...



Excuse me, I think you will find that many people have been actively bisexual without any of their man-sex being on tables. :smalltongue:

Only in America. Because ikea. :smalltongue:

[Moonwolf727]

So I skimmed and saw that there was a skype group mentioned... how do I get into that?

[SMEE]

I've seen 1-2%. Nothing higher.

With hormones, the bad reactions I've heard of were mostly that it didn't do enough feminizing changes, not that it ruined a perfect male life.

Last I checked MtF HRT can and will turn a male body permanently infertile after several months/years of usage.
How many months depends on the person body, but it will happen at some point.
That's why you freeze your stuff before starting.

[SiuiS]

Found this bra-fitting guide for trans women on Reddit, might be helpful for people here? (http://www.reddit.com/r/ABraThatFits/comments/1q2j3q/looking_for_feedback_on_the_trans_guide_warning/)

Neat!


Apparently my grandmother's worried that if I transition, I'll regret it and that I'll have ruined my life as a guy, and have to detransition and stuff. Does anyone know where to find statistics on regret rates and detransitioning and stuff? I remember seeing something suggesting that the regret rates for SRS are staggeringly lower than for other elective surgeries, but I don't remember where I saw it. Anyone know?

Wait, how would that ruin your life as a male? Assuming the small chance comes to pass, you transition, and don't like it... You can transition back. "You can fix this if you do change your mind" is not a reason to not try at all, it's a reason to go ahead sooner!


Last I checked MtF HRT can and will turn a male body permanently infertile after several months/years of usage.
How many months depends on the person body, but it will happen at some point.
That's why you freeze your stuff before starting.

Yuss.

[Chess435]

Poked Eirala, but still no response. Could anyone in the Skype group add me? (Skype name is Cody Trumbel. [Send the invites to both since I had to make an alternate Skype account because the Linux version is stupid.])

[Heliomance]

Wait, how would that ruin your life as a male? Assuming the small chance comes to pass, you transition, and don't like it... You can transition back. "You can fix this if you do change your mind" is not a reason to not try at all, it's a reason to go ahead sooner!

It's more that once you're past a certain point, you can't fix it fully. She's worried that I'll go past the point of no return, and only then regret it.

[Eirala]

Poked Eirala, but still no response. Could anyone in the Skype group add me? (Skype name is Cody Trumbel. [Send the invites to both since I had to make an alternate Skype account because the Linux version is stupid.])

Actually i sent a request on Skype many hours ago, it seems that didn't work. Let's try this again...

[Karen Lynn]

I'm scared. Absitively, posolutely terrified. Tomorrow morning is my Electro appointment, and I am nervous to high heavens... Hugs? Words?

[Serpentine]

Well, no. But if they intend to have sex with a man...

(of course, you can be bisexual without intending to have sex with a man. the only requirement is that man-sex isn't off the table)
Repeating Thufir, but I don't think so at all. I consider myself effectively heterosexual because I expect it is highly unlikely that I will ever fall for a woman. I am not at all adverse to falling for or fooling around with a woman, however, and if the falling for ever happens and/or the fooling around starts to happen on a regular basis I may reassess my sexuality but I could well end up deciding that the former is a freak occurrence and the latter is just fun sex and therefore my identification as mostly-straight will remain intact.
I will grant that my sexuality might best be described as heteroflexible/borderline bisexual demiheteroromantic, but I don't think it's at all unlikely that there are a lot of very straight people interested in having fun with the same sex, and gay people interested in fun with the opposite sex. Being hetero/homosexual doesn't mean that the same/opposite sex, or the idea of sex with the same/opposite sex, disgusts you.

[Eirala]

I'm scared. Absitively, posolutely terrified. Tomorrow morning is my Electro appointment, and I am nervous to high heavens... Hugs? Words?

Does it count as both when i offer you hugs with words, and also cuddles and cookies and ice cream?

I'll go to bed now so just take what you want :3

[Miriel]

Our College trans* group is starting its petition tomorrow!

"We, students and employees of [College], ask that the University :
• forbid explicity discrimination targeting gender identity and expression;
• allow use of a preferred name on all its unofficial documents and tools;
• offer gender neutral bathrooms on its buildings;
• train its personnel to interact correctly with trans* people;
• broadcast its trans* policies."

We're getting lots of likes and shares and other social media good things, too!

[Heliomance]

Eh... I'm on the fence about gender neutral toilets. Not convinced they're a great idea, myself.

[SiuiS]

I'm scared. Absitively, posolutely terrified. Tomorrow morning is my Electro appointment, and I am nervous to high heavens... Hugs? Words?

You'll be fine, hon. You've been through worse, and the pay off is tremendous~


Being hetero/homosexual doesn't mean that the same/opposite sex, or the idea of sex with the same/opposite sex, disgusts you.

Yeah. That's probably a male culture thing that's just assumed because Women Don't Differ/Men Are Default.


Eh... I'm on the fence about gender neutral toilets. Not convinced they're a great idea, myself.

For one thing, the sanitation levels plummet. Women can miss, but it's not as frequent. Though I don't suppose it's not missing if you don't have a a cruel target, it's like they just spray and hope for the best.

But then I also find the sacred nature of the Lou to be asinine. There is nothing magical about tile and porcelain behind a sign with a skirt. The social pressure that establishes wetting yourself out of no recourse being superior to using someone else's toilet is unhealthy.

[Miriel]

Eh... I'm on the fence about gender neutral toilets. Not convinced they're a great idea, myself.
I'm thinking more of changing gendered single-occupancy bathrooms to neutral bathrooms, and making sure such single-occupancy bathrooms are included in future building plans. Not, necessarily, you know... "Yay, one huge bathroom for everyone!"

[Skeppio]

Poked Eirala, but still no response. Could anyone in the Skype group add me? (Skype name is Cody Trumbel. [Send the invites to both since I had to make an alternate Skype account because the Linux version is stupid.])

Same here. Though Eirala's offline... :c

My Skype name is, of course, Skeppio. :smalltongue:

[Belladonna Took]

Hello everyone! *offers scritches* Just happened upon this forum, and just wanted to share a story.

Spoiler'd for length.
In middle school I realized something that was different. Being bi for girls was cool and awesome... But being bi for guys was terrible and horrendous. (In the eyes of most other students that is) And for some reason this made me not want to come out. I am a girl, but it just blew my mind that the reactions for some things could be so different once gender was involved. Finally one night, I was talking on the phone with my best friend. (this wasn't exactly anything new or exciting, we literally had 16 hour phone calls most days that we didn't have school) and he sort of sighed to me and told me that he really needed to tell me something. I decided that I really needed to tell him something too, but I said that I would listen to him first. I remember the exact words that happened next. "I'm going to tell you... and then I'm gonna hang up the phone and go to bed... so that way you get a chance to think about it." Me: "... Uhm Okay sure." Him: "Well... Here goes... I'm Bi." and quickly, before he could hang up the phone I whispered "Me too." And that was the best day of our lives. We headed a LGBTQ group at our school, advocating awareness and support all throughout high school, distributing Day of Silence waivers and duct tape to those who signed the agreement to get duct tape. It was the best decision of my life. Of course we eventually ended up not being friends (as life goes) but the LGBTQ group at our school still remains and teams up with the Improv group every year to put on a very humorous play. I just wanted to let everyone know that it helps to talk to someone! Be it a random person on here, a friend, or a guidance counselor, someone will help. And if they don't, then they are clearly the wrong person to talk to.

[Lentrax]

I'm scared. Absitively, posolutely terrified. Tomorrow morning is my Electro appointment, and I am nervous to high heavens... Hugs? Words?

*hugs*

It'll be alright, Karen. And once it's over you'll feel better about yourself. We're all here, cheering for you across the internet. :smallsmile:


I'm thinking more of changing gendered single-occupancy bathrooms to neutral bathrooms, and making sure such single-occupancy bathrooms are included in future building plans. Not, necessarily, you know... "Yay, one huge bathroom for everyone!"

This is a good idea. Because though I like the idea of a room with enough stalls for everyone, it isn't something I would want to take my daughter into so she can go.

As an added advantage, it helps people with bladder shyness relax, which helps promote better health and hygiene for everyone.

[Karen Lynn]

So, rumor abound that blood tests can cost anywhere from $100-$4k. Anyone has info on this? Trying to find health insurance if the costs for uninsured are greater than $500 every six months. I can afford that, barely. But 3500 every three months? No way. Can't afford that...

[Remmirath]

Hello again, all! I've been rather busy with theatre and other stuff the past few weeks, but I've still been around every now and again.


I'm scared. Absitively, posolutely terrified. Tomorrow morning is my Electro appointment, and I am nervous to high heavens... Hugs? Words?

Good luck!

My memories of it are slightly hazy (this being close to twenty years ago now), but I ended up walking with my mom to several of hers, and from my observation and what she said it's no worse than going to the dentist. Well, what I assume going to the dentist is like for people other than me. I get scared even of simple tooth cleanings about a week beforehand. She's about as generally freaked out by medical stuff as I am, so it must not've been too bad.

All I can do in the way of hugs is awkward hugs, but you can have some of those!


Our College trans* group is starting its petition tomorrow!

"We, students and employees of [College], ask that the University :
• forbid explicity discrimination targeting gender identity and expression;
• allow use of a preferred name on all its unofficial documents and tools;
• offer gender neutral bathrooms on its buildings;
• train its personnel to interact correctly with trans* people;
• broadcast its trans* policies."

We're getting lots of likes and shares and other social media good things, too!

Good luck! It sounds as though people are supportive of it, at least.


I'm thinking more of changing gendered single-occupancy bathrooms to neutral bathrooms, and making sure such single-occupancy bathrooms are included in future building plans. Not, necessarily, you know... "Yay, one huge bathroom for everyone!"

I think that's reasonable. One thing that frequently bothers me about restrooms is how they often seem to end up on opposite ends of the building, so it would really be more convenient if there were just two neutral bathrooms instead of one gendered bathroom way at one end of the building and the other at the other end.

Some places I've been (trains are the first example that comes to mind) already do have only single-occupancy neutral bathrooms, and they don't seem to be noticably worse than other public restrooms. Of course, my opinion of public restrooms in general is rather low, and I'm inclined to avoid them if at all possible.


Hello everyone! *offers scritches* Just happened upon this forum, and just wanted to share a story.

Spoiler'd for length.
In middle school I realized something that was different. Being bi for girls was cool and awesome... But being bi for guys was terrible and horrendous. (In the eyes of most other students that is) And for some reason this made me not want to come out. I am a girl, but it just blew my mind that the reactions for some things could be so different once gender was involved. Finally one night, I was talking on the phone with my best friend. (this wasn't exactly anything new or exciting, we literally had 16 hour phone calls most days that we didn't have school) and he sort of sighed to me and told me that he really needed to tell me something. I decided that I really needed to tell him something too, but I said that I would listen to him first. I remember the exact words that happened next. "I'm going to tell you... and then I'm gonna hang up the phone and go to bed... so that way you get a chance to think about it." Me: "... Uhm Okay sure." Him: "Well... Here goes... I'm Bi." and quickly, before he could hang up the phone I whispered "Me too." And that was the best day of our lives. We headed a LGBTQ group at our school, advocating awareness and support all throughout high school, distributing Day of Silence waivers and duct tape to those who signed the agreement to get duct tape. It was the best decision of my life. Of course we eventually ended up not being friends (as life goes) but the LGBTQ group at our school still remains and teams up with the Improv group every year to put on a very humorous play. I just wanted to let everyone know that it helps to talk to someone! Be it a random person on here, a friend, or a guidance counselor, someone will help. And if they don't, then they are clearly the wrong person to talk to.

It's cool that you did that, and that it's still going on. Thanks for sharing the story, and welcome!

[Lauren]

I'm scared. Absitively, posolutely terrified. Tomorrow morning is my Electro appointment, and I am nervous to high heavens... Hugs? Words?

*hugs* Best wishes Karen.


Hello everyone! *offers scritches* Just happened upon this forum, and just wanted to share a story.

Spoiler'd for length.
In middle school I realized something that was different. Being bi for girls was cool and awesome... But being bi for guys was terrible and horrendous. (In the eyes of most other students that is) And for some reason this made me not want to come out. I am a girl, but it just blew my mind that the reactions for some things could be so different once gender was involved. Finally one night, I was talking on the phone with my best friend. (this wasn't exactly anything new or exciting, we literally had 16 hour phone calls most days that we didn't have school) and he sort of sighed to me and told me that he really needed to tell me something. I decided that I really needed to tell him something too, but I said that I would listen to him first. I remember the exact words that happened next. "I'm going to tell you... and then I'm gonna hang up the phone and go to bed... so that way you get a chance to think about it." Me: "... Uhm Okay sure." Him: "Well... Here goes... I'm Bi." and quickly, before he could hang up the phone I whispered "Me too." And that was the best day of our lives. We headed a LGBTQ group at our school, advocating awareness and support all throughout high school, distributing Day of Silence waivers and duct tape to those who signed the agreement to get duct tape. It was the best decision of my life. Of course we eventually ended up not being friends (as life goes) but the LGBTQ group at our school still remains and teams up with the Improv group every year to put on a very humorous play. I just wanted to let everyone know that it helps to talk to someone! Be it a random person on here, a friend, or a guidance counselor, someone will help. And if they don't, then they are clearly the wrong person to talk to.

That's a really awesome story, Bella!

On the Gold Star *insert sexuality here*, I wonder how it works for non-monosexuals. Like, would one have to have sex with equal numbers of the genders to whom one was attracted?

I kind of stopped thinking about it, because rainbows are pretty.

[SiuiS]

So, rumor abound that blood tests can cost anywhere from $100-$4k. Anyone has info on this? Trying to find health insurance if the costs for uninsured are greater than $500 every six months. I can afford that, barely. But 3500 every three months? No way. Can't afford that...

Hmm. Where are you establishing home base? It might be easier to find out based on location.

try informed consent clinics?
Might have to have someone repeat this, I think Karen blocked me for her sanity.



On the Gold Star *insert sexuality here*, I wonder how it works for non-monosexuals. Like, would one have to have sex with equal numbers of the genders to whom one was attracted?

I kind of stopped thinking about it, because rainbows are pretty.

*shrug*

I think the real moral is that something important to someone else may not be important to you, may even be detrimental to you, but it's still valuable to them. Celebration of differences and all.




My memories of it are slightly hazy (this being close to twenty years ago now), but I ended up walking with my mom to several of hers, and from my observation and what she said it's no worse than going to the dentist. Well, what I assume going to the dentist is like for people other than me. I get scared even of simple tooth cleanings about a week beforehand. She's about as generally freaked out by medical stuff as I am, so it must not've been too bad.

Heh. I'm actually kinda freaked out by needles, myself, but not in the usual manner? Had a bad experience with a sick kitty and an IV, so I've got actual PTSD symptoms from them; anxiety, cold shakes, flash backs, sleeplessness... But I can do the dentist just fine, and after a vaccine a few weeks ago I realized I was freaking out for nothing — my sharpest darling kicking off my chest because Braz turned on the vacuum when I picked him up was way more painful.

Life is funny.

[Karen Lynn]

I thought I blocked you for my own mental sanity as well. Surprises abound.

It is an IC clinic, but still requires bloodwork and labs for hormones. That's a standard until I can make genetically cloned and vat grown body replacements a possibility with partial brain transplants to fully graft a person to their proper body.

I've chosen Wisconsin for some gods awful reason. Snowman army building is not worth the cold. :3

[SiuiS]

Hmm. And they couldn't give you an estimate? Or just haven't checked in person yet?

I can't make heads or tails of the process without trying to sign up, but it looks like each process is about $100, and the three involved are basic health, basic blood, and endocrine checks. So conservatively I would say it would be in the range of $350 a month (you can afford that?! I'll have to mimic your career path XD), but I would recommend saving up for a bit and getting an overly exhaustive and more expensive full panel to make sure your baseline is what they think it is.

Ugh. So depressing. I remember why I haven't gotten anywhere now; any and all trans, health, or family problems are reducible to 'work out for six months, pay a hundred usd in licensing, and then you can start getting a career path moving". :smallfrown:


Also I seem to spell it Winsconsin. Must be the cheese from earlier affecting me...

[Karen Lynn]

I was so nervous, I didn't ask. I'll be calling tomorrow to ask for details. So, bloodwork can be anywhere from monthly to six months apart? Geeze...

Also, drive truck or deliver pizzas. Good money in both

[Togath]

Out of curiosity... what is Electrolysis?
I know it's meaning in regards to chemically altering metals with electric currents, but I'm not actually sure what it means in this context.
Well.. other than that it involves hair removal.. though I'm having trouble finding much information.:smallsmile:
(wikipedia unfortunately only seems to have a page on the metallurgy usage of the term, so I'm having trouble finding out more)

[Karen Lynn]

Electrolysis is permanent hair removal through the use of a metallic probe inserted into th hair follicle, which is then electrified to kill the hair follicle. No more hair~

[Zorg]

My bloodwork when I started HRT was initially one month intervals, then three where it is currently (having recently started on an oestrogen implant) and may then be six months apart.

And electrolysis is super effective, but really painful and messes your skin up for days after.

[SiuiS]

And electrolysis is super effective, but really painful and messes your skin up for days after.

So is shaving. I'll take the plunge.

Actually, pithy one liners aside, I have a reason to post!
Does anyone have any idea how to find a trans friendly hair dresser? I was feeling out Braz's, while still adapting (hair dresser? A personal one? That's as novel as having a family physician or going to the dentist regularly for maintenance!), but she seems to hate me on the premise that I am male and have sexed up her client who she's known for thirty years. I don't want to ask for a feminine hair style from someone who wants me to man up.

[Asta Kask]

SiuiS, if Braz had been from the Appalachians, would that have made her your hill-filly?

[SiuiS]

That's fantastic. I'm actually going to google the area of whichever state she actually grew up in so I can call her that anyway =D


We're quite a pair, she and I. A red neck raised to be a city chick and a vato city slicker raised by good ol' boy rednecks. Hahaha.

[Lentrax]

That's fantastic. I'm actually going to google the area of whichever state she actually grew up in so I can call her that anyway =D


We're quite a pair, she and I. A red neck raised to be a city chick and a vato city slicker raised by good ol' boy rednecks. Hahaha.

Ohh those Duke girls are gonna be in a whole heap of trouble again...

[Asta Kask]

Out of curiosity... what is Electrolysis?
I know it's meaning in regards to chemically altering metals with electric currents, but I'm not actually sure what it means in this context.
Well.. other than that it involves hair removal.. though I'm having trouble finding much information.:smallsmile:
(wikipedia unfortunately only seems to have a page on the metallurgy usage of the term, so I'm having trouble finding out more)


Electrolysis is permanent hair removal through the use of a metallic probe inserted into th hair follicle, which is then electrified to kill the hair follicle. No more hair~

Maybe we should start electroplating... gold-plated trans* people... hmm...

[Miriel]

Hello everyone! *offers scritches* Just happened upon this forum, and just wanted to share a story.

Spoiler'd for length.
In middle school I realized something that was different. Being bi for girls was cool and awesome... But being bi for guys was terrible and horrendous. (In the eyes of most other students that is) And for some reason this made me not want to come out. I am a girl, but it just blew my mind that the reactions for some things could be so different once gender was involved. Finally one night, I was talking on the phone with my best friend. (this wasn't exactly anything new or exciting, we literally had 16 hour phone calls most days that we didn't have school) and he sort of sighed to me and told me that he really needed to tell me something. I decided that I really needed to tell him something too, but I said that I would listen to him first. I remember the exact words that happened next. "I'm going to tell you... and then I'm gonna hang up the phone and go to bed... so that way you get a chance to think about it." Me: "... Uhm Okay sure." Him: "Well... Here goes... I'm Bi." and quickly, before he could hang up the phone I whispered "Me too." And that was the best day of our lives. We headed a LGBTQ group at our school, advocating awareness and support all throughout high school, distributing Day of Silence waivers and duct tape to those who signed the agreement to get duct tape. It was the best decision of my life. Of course we eventually ended up not being friends (as life goes) but the LGBTQ group at our school still remains and teams up with the Improv group every year to put on a very humorous play. I just wanted to let everyone know that it helps to talk to someone! Be it a random person on here, a friend, or a guidance counselor, someone will help. And if they don't, then they are clearly the wrong person to talk to.
Aaaaw, that's a nice story :smallsmile:


I think that's reasonable. One thing that frequently bothers me about restrooms is how they often seem to end up on opposite ends of the building, so it would really be more convenient if there were just two neutral bathrooms instead of one gendered bathroom way at one end of the building and the other at the other end.
The main building was built in the era before women could go to college, so they only built men's rooms. Since the population changed, they re-labeled some for women, but it still means you don't really know where the nearest correct bathroom is -- they're always far apart.

[Mono Vertigo]

I forgot to give hugs the first time round. Unacceptable!
*hugs for Karen and whoever else needed one*

You cheat? On your boyfriend? :smalltongue:Nah, I just cheat, period.
And when I don't, I'm a horrible player.
My friends are considering banning me from all board games. :smallbiggrin:

Hey, some people may identify as omnisexual, who're you to say it's not a real orientation?
It's certainly accurate enough for Jack Harkness.
I had expected the rebuttal!
Sure, there are people who do IRL. Personally, basing my observations on Doctor Who and Torchwood, I see the difference as such: pansexual potentially covers all humans, omnisexual covers anything that can give consent, and also magically turns others gay/straight/whatever for you.

[Asta Kask]

Is Harkness limited to that which can give consent? Wasn't he attracted to the Planet Earth or something?

[SiuiS]

Is Harkness limited to that which can give consent? Wasn't he attracted to the Planet Earth or something?

Doctor who has covered words being power from a time that predates science as functional, the actual satan being discovered and defeated by an ejector seat improv, a sealed time loop closed from all access except everyone accesses it, a creature which fully regains a multihundred year life span when it does by reconstituting the potential energy of the life lived, and had a time traveling immortal who became a giant talking head with a message because Reasons.

Earth giving consent is not outside the bounds of possible. Or even weird, when you think about it.

[Mina Kobold]

In speed dating, your potential partners are rolled out of the Random Encounters table.

But Kobolds are on that table... Eep. O_O


Apparently my grandmother's worried that if I transition, I'll regret it and that I'll have ruined my life as a guy, and have to detransition and stuff. Does anyone know where to find statistics on regret rates and detransitioning and stuff? I remember seeing something suggesting that the regret rates for SRS are staggeringly lower than for other elective surgeries, but I don't remember where I saw it. Anyone know?

Shouldn't that mean she'd be just as worried that you'd ruin your life as a girl by not doing it? That's at least what my argument will be if I get that when I come out. ^_^'

I don't have statistics, sadly. Best I have is Natalie Reed's article on detransitioning, but that is more of a discussion about a single case.


I'm scared. Absitively, posolutely terrified. Tomorrow morning is my Electro appointment, and I am nervous to high heavens... Hugs? Words?

*Hugs*

All I can say is that you are a very brave person and you have come amazingly far, and nothing will stop that at the appointment. Even if everything went wrong, it would at worst delay, but never stop it. :smallsmile:


So, rumor abound that blood tests can cost anywhere from $100-$4k. Anyone has info on this? Trying to find health insurance if the costs for uninsured are greater than $500 every six months. I can afford that, barely. But 3500 every three months? No way. Can't afford that...

Eep. I wish I could help, but I neither have gotten to that point yet nor would have much to compare to (Dentistry is pretty much the only medical anything that is paid by the individual patients here. Wish I could extend that and help you pay, but I don't think they allow that. ;_;)

Hope it is much cheaper than it sounds and that you can pay with no trouble. It shouldn't be a matter of money when it comes to health and happiness.


Maybe we should start electroplating... gold-plated trans* people... hmm...

Ooh, sounds fun and shiny. Maybe-

*Sound of dice being thrown*

Eep!

*Disappears to flee speed dating adventurers*

[Asta Kask]

Doctor who has covered words being power from a time that predates science as functional, the actual satan being discovered and defeated by an ejector seat improv, a sealed time loop closed from all access except everyone accesses it, a creature which fully regains a multihundred year life span when it does by reconstituting the potential energy of the life lived, and had a time traveling immortal who became a giant talking head with a message because Reasons.

Earth giving consent is not outside the bounds of possible. Or even weird, when you think about it.

Fair enough. I've never seen a Doctor Who show. I'm more of a Star Trek man.

[Astrella]

Hi everyone, I got a haircut this morning and got my usually slightly curly hair straightened. I took a few pictures and while the scarf hides my pretty awful chin and throat I'm pretty happy with them. :smallsmile:

Linky. (http://imgur.com/a/xiFak)

[SiuiS]

Hi everyone, I got a haircut this morning and got my usually slightly curly hair straightened. I took a few pictures and while the scarf hides my pretty awful chin and throat I'm pretty happy with them. :smallsmile:

Linky. (http://imgur.com/a/xiFak)

Wow. I literally do not recognize you.

[Miriel]

Hi everyone, I got a haircut this morning and got my usually slightly curly hair straightened. I took a few pictures and while the scarf hides my pretty awful chin and throat I'm pretty happy with them. :smallsmile:

Linky. (http://imgur.com/a/xiFak)
You're looking good!

(Hum... You remind me that I should learn to use scarves.)

[Asta Kask]

Hi everyone, I got a haircut this morning and got my usually slightly curly hair straightened. I took a few pictures and while the scarf hides my pretty awful chin and throat I'm pretty happy with them. :smallsmile:

Linky. (http://imgur.com/a/xiFak)

Yeah, you don't think us cis people hide our awful parts? It's the first principle of advertising. :smallsmile:

I don't know what to say, really. It's a girl. With pretty eyes (I stand by that). Anything more and we're looking at a restraining order. :smalltongue:

Keveak, apparently one can electroplate parts for lubrication. So I'm getting certain parts electroplate before I go out again.

[Lentrax]

Hi everyone, I got a haircut this morning and got my usually slightly curly hair straightened. I took a few pictures and while the scarf hides my pretty awful chin and throat I'm pretty happy with them. :smallsmile:

Linky. (http://imgur.com/a/xiFak)

*Clears throat*

Who's the pretty girl in the mirror there? [/sing]

Oh it's Lena! Hello Lena! You look pretty.

[Thufir]

Hi everyone, I got a haircut this morning and got my usually slightly curly hair straightened. I took a few pictures and while the scarf hides my pretty awful chin and throat I'm pretty happy with them. :smallsmile:

Linky. (http://imgur.com/a/xiFak)

You so adorable.

[Zorg]

Lena, you look totally gorgeous! ^_^

[noparlpf]

Fair enough. I've never seen a Doctor Who show. I'm more of a Star Trek man.

Why not both? I watched TOS a few years ago, and then the entirety of Doctor Who from 1963 on, and I'm working on Next Generation now.


Hi everyone, I got a haircut this morning and got my usually slightly curly hair straightened. I took a few pictures and while the scarf hides my pretty awful chin and throat I'm pretty happy with them. :smallsmile:

Linky. (http://imgur.com/a/xiFak)

You look pretty good.

[Proud Tortoise]

As far as "gold stars" go, most people can have a Tautosexual Gold Star :3

[Asta Kask]

Why not both? I watched TOS a few years ago, and then the entirety of Doctor Who from 1963 on, and I'm working on Next Generation now.

Well, I could say I have a life but we both know that's not true.

Doctor Who has never been a part of Swedish TV - I don't know that they've ever been broadcasted here. And right now I'm busy converting a Swedish RPG world - and gaming system - to GURPS, so I'm rather busy.

[noparlpf]

Well, I could say I have a life but we both know that's not true.

Doctor Who has never been a part of Swedish TV - I don't know that they've ever been broadcasted here. And right now I'm busy converting a Swedish RPG world - and gaming system - to GURPS, so I'm rather busy.

You can find a lot of it online if you look. And if you watch one episode a day you might catch up to the present in about ten years.

[Mina Kobold]

Hi everyone, I got a haircut this morning and got my usually slightly curly hair straightened. I took a few pictures and while the scarf hides my pretty awful chin and throat I'm pretty happy with them. :smallsmile:

Linky. (http://imgur.com/a/xiFak)

You look very nice. The scarf/coat combo really works, and the hair works very well. ^_^


As far as "gold stars" go, most people can have a Tautosexual Gold Star :3

But I'm not sexually attracted to stuff being said! I can't get that. D:


Well, I could say I have a life but we both know that's not true.

Doctor Who has never been a part of Swedish TV - I don't know that they've ever been broadcasted here. And right now I'm busy converting a Swedish RPG world - and gaming system - to GURPS, so I'm rather busy.

I know some of the newer Who is being broadcast on BBC in Denmark, but even that is rather obscure. Which may explain why I am only on the First Doctor right now. Also only on the first season of the original Star Trek, I'm terrible at being a geek. >_<

[NeroGrimm]

How is everyone this fine Monday morning? Did everyone have a nice weekend?

[Mono Vertigo]

As far as "gold stars" go, most people can have a Tautosexual Gold Star :3

So that's the point of this label!
You get a Gold Star! You get a Gold Star! Everyone gets a Gold Star!

[Irish Musician]

Hi everyone, I got a haircut this morning and got my usually slightly curly hair straightened. I took a few pictures and while the scarf hides my pretty awful chin and throat I'm pretty happy with them. :smallsmile:

Linky. (http://imgur.com/a/xiFak)

Whooooooooo's that laaady.....who's that laaady...

Beau-tiful laaaady......who's that lady...... (http://youtu.be/q1DDgNCLD84?t=34s)

:smallsmile:

[Philemonite]

I'm terrible at being a geek. >_<

Unless the council receives proof of improvement, your membership will be revoked soon.:smalltongue:

Looking good Lena, I think this is the first time I see you.

[Karen Lynn]

Nero! Can I call you a M*******?

So, sad eevee is sad. Apparently my hormone appointment has no labs scheduled at all, and offs just a consultation appointment. Most likely no hormones then.

[NeroGrimm]

Nero! Can I call you a M*******?

So, sad eevee is sad. Apparently my hormone appointment has no labs scheduled at all, and offs just a consultation appointment. Most likely no hormones then.

Hopefully things work out. Also, a M-what? 0.0 I'm confused.

[Coidzor]

On the Gold Star *insert sexuality here*, I wonder how it works for non-monosexuals. Like, would one have to have sex with equal numbers of the genders to whom one was attracted?

I'd hazard the guess that the way it works for non-monosexuals is that it *doesn't* work for non-monosexuals. Why would something that's deliberately exclusionary be inclusive?

[Mina Kobold]

How is everyone this fine Monday morning? Did everyone have a nice weekend?

I just had dinner. Spring rolls and rice. Yum. ^______^

Weekend was pretty nice overall. Watched some Star Trek, squeed at some things, read some blogs, drew some stuff. Nothing much, but fun.

Today I learnt that Bouton is apparently slang for something related to how someone is a lesbian. Not sure what buttons relate to, but it could be a lead in the gold star research. :3


So that's the point of this label!
You get a Gold Star! You get a Gold Star! Everyone gets a Gold Star!

Yay! Gold stars to all! ^_^

*Grabs one*

Yay!


Unless the council receives proof of improvement, your membership will be revoked soon.:smalltongue:

Oh eep, that's no good at all! O_O


So, sad eevee is sad. Apparently my hormone appointment has no labs scheduled at all, and offs just a consultation appointment. Most likely no hormones then.

*Offers hugs to the sad Eevee*

Hope this means they plan on very soon giving you a lap scheduled appointment as soon as they're finished with mandatory consultation! >_<

[Serpentine]

Like I said before, Lena, I think you look lovely :smallsmile:

I'm half-way through that show Hit and Miss. So far... I think I like it, overall. The main character is complex and hardcore, and I think her transsexuality is for the most part treated with great sensitivity. It pretty much opened with a full-body nude shot, and penis-shots have recurred, but it's mostly... kinda neutral, I guess, or sympathetic, and mostly necessary for the plot or at least empathising with her. There was one very strange and disturbing... uh... self-abuse scene; I think that scene would either be insulting to trans people, or they would relate to it on an intimate level. I'm honestly not sure which. A summary of the scene for the interested:
She's just had a fight with the kids, one of whom called her a freak and similar nasty things. She runs away to some sort of safe house, puts on a long rubber nose, and stands naked in front of a mirror. She says "I'm a real boy. I'm a real boy!", and then starts to punch and slap her genitals while calling herself a freak.
Her job as an assassin is, or at least is building up to be, about as big a complication as her transsexuality.
So so far, I think worth a look. I'll let you know what I think when I've finished it.

[Zorg]

You get a Gold Star! You get a Gold Star! Everyone gets a Gold Star!

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7044/oprahbees.gif

[Proud Tortoise]

But I'm not sexually attracted to stuff being said! I can't get that. D:

Sexually attracted to what you're sexually attracted to.

[Heliomance]

As far as "gold stars" go, most people can have a Tautosexual Gold Star :3

Only most?


But I'm not sexually attracted to stuff being said! I can't get that. D:

Pretty sure a Gold Star Tautosexual would be someone that's only ever had sex with people they've had sex with. Or, for a version that doesn't exclude asexuals, someone that's never had sex with anyone they've never had sex with.

[Eldest]

Only most?



Pretty sure a Gold Star Tautosexual would be someone that's only ever had sex with people they've had sex with. Or, for a version that doesn't exclude asexuals, someone that's never had sex with anyone they've never had sex with.

Actually, I think -sexual is who you want to have sex with, so it would be those who want to have sex with the people they want to have sex with.

[Miriel]

Lots of signatures :smallsmile: Some people really didn't want to sign, but they were a small minority. There's hope yet in the world.


Nero! Can I call you a M*******?

So, sad eevee is sad. Apparently my hormone appointment has no labs scheduled at all, and offs just a consultation appointment. Most likely no hormones then.
... What?

*hugs sad Eevee*


Actually, I think -sexual is who you want to have sex with, so it would be those who want to have sex with the people they want to have sex with.
Yes, but it's a Gold Star, so it has to be exclusive.

The Tautosexual Gold Star is still problematic, because some people have had sex despite their intent with people they didn't want... Yeah.

[Asta Kask]

So if "Pulp Fiction" was remade as a gay movie, would the text on Jules' wallet read "Bad Father****er"?

[Karen Lynn]

Mass Hole. Slang for people from Mass. Usually Boston. :3

Turns out she is not exactly informed consent. Nearest IC clinic would be Chicago, and I hate Chicago. She wants a therapist letter, but more will be spoken about during my consultation.

Electrologist wants me to do laser first, as it's faster, cheaper, and easier on the skin. She has a really good laser from the research I've done on it. $2k/five sessions. She does the entire face for that much, so hopefully it's worth it for me.

In other news, I fixed my car. Was making noises. No more. :3

[Astrella]

Sorry it's not going that well, Karen. :smallfrown:

Also thank you everyone for the nice words, you make me blush. :smallredface: I'm actually feeling reasonably okay with how I look right now. Hoping new glasses and more clothes will help with even more. (And nice compliments help too. :) )

[Asta Kask]

Laser? LASER?

AWESOME!!!

[Jormengand]

Laser? LASER?

AWESOME!!!

AH'M A FAHRIN' MAH LAYZOWR!!!

[Asta Kask]

Laserrifle!!!

http://legacy.the-junkyard.net/images/weapons/tvengeance/sniperrifle.jpg

[NeroGrimm]

Mass Hole. Slang for people from Mass. Usually Boston. :3


Ah, yeah. Makes sense. I'm actually from NH, but I live in Mass for school.

[Karen Lynn]

Ah, okay, so you aren't a Mass hole then. :P

[Mina Kobold]

Mass holes? Are they becoming aware of our experiments with Element Zero on this planet's inhabitants? Plans may have to be changed...


Turns out she is not exactly informed consent. Nearest IC clinic would be Chicago, and I hate Chicago. She wants a therapist letter, but more will be spoken about during my consultation.

Electrologist wants me to do laser first, as it's faster, cheaper, and easier on the skin. She has a really good laser from the research I've done on it. $2k/five sessions. She does the entire face for that much, so hopefully it's worth it for me.

In other news, I fixed my car. Was making noises. No more. :3

Mrrr, that's too bad about complications with the clinic, but I hope things turn out all right even despite Chicago.

Ooh, lasers. *w*

Yay for fixing things! ^_^


Sorry it's not going that well, Karen. :smallfrown:

Also thank you everyone for the nice words, you make me blush. :smallredface: I'm actually feeling reasonably okay with how I look right now. Hoping new glasses and more clothes will help with even more. (And nice compliments help too. :) )

I hope glasses and clothes will make you feel super-nice! You already are and look super-nice, but help is always good! ^_^

[Lentrax]

Bad Kobold! Starfleet has prohibited the creation of Biotics on Earth until the 22nd century. At least.

[Eldest]

Bad Kobold! Starfleet has prohibited the creation of Biotics on Earth until the 22nd century. At least.

We... we did?

I mean of course we did heh heh heh...

[Lentrax]

We'll I don't know how things are done in section 31. But that ain't how you run it on my ship. Keep pushing it and you be scouring out the latrines. Micron By micron.

[SiuiS]

Unless the council receives proof of improvement, your membership will be revoked soon.:smalltongue:

Looking good Lena, I think this is the first time I see you.

We all know that even if you die you'll get reinstated by the council, and they won't give a damn what proof you have ever. They'll have "dismissed that claim".


m
So, sad eevee is sad. Apparently my hormone appointment has no labs scheduled at all, and offs just a consultation appointment. Most likely no hormones then.

Huh.
Well. That does make sense. But still.



Her job as an assassin is, or at least is building up to be, about as big a complication as her transsexuality.
So so far, I think worth a look. I'll let you know what I think when I've finished it.

:eek:

Just weird and offensive, I think.


Mass Hole. Slang for people from Mass. Usually Boston. :3

Turns out she is not exactly informed consent. Nearest IC clinic would be Chicago, and I hate Chicago. She wants a therapist letter, but more will be spoken about during my consultation.

Electrologist wants me to do laser first, as it's faster, cheaper, and easier on the skin. She has a really good laser from the research I've done on it. $2k/five sessions. She does the entire face for that much, so hopefully it's worth it for me.

In other news, I fixed my car. Was making noises. No more. :3

Hmm. Are you fair haired enough for laser?

[Eldest]

We'll I don't know how things are done in section 31. But that ain't how you run it on my ship. Keep pushing it and you be scouring out the latrines. Micron By micron.

That wasn't my section, thought! :smalleek:

Besides, my ship. :smalltongue:

[Heliomance]

Hmm. Are you fair haired enough for laser?

Laser needs dark hair, not fair.

[Alad]

Electrologist wants me to do laser first, as it's faster, cheaper, and easier on the skin. She has a really good laser from the research I've done on it. $2k/five sessions. She does the entire face for that much, so hopefully it's worth it for me.

If its not too much trouble, I'd be interested to hear how the laser treatment goes. I despise having facial/most of my body hair. :smallsigh: One of my friends had it and it worked for them but more perspectives are good.
(also it only works on some hair types? what?)

[SiuiS]

Laser needs dark hair, not fair.

That makes more sense with the science of it, actually. I guess I vacillate on whether I consider myself fair or dark of hair. I remember being sad I couldn't do laser.



(also it only works on some hair types? what?)

I don't remember if it's that the laser passes too easily through lighter hair or it's just much harder to target the lighter follicle, but yes. Very blond people need a needle stuck into their pore and flooded with electricity instead of having light amplified between high and low energy state gasses and launched at their face.

[Serpentine]

:eek:

Just weird and offensive, I think.
Her job as an assassin building up to be a major complication is? :smallconfused:

[SMEE]

Blond hair here.
One year of laser... and it did nothing... :smallannoyed:

I am invulnerable to your silly lasers! I will stomp Tokyo and roar and use my atomic breath or something. :smalltongue:

[Eirala]

(also it only works on some hair types? what?)

Yup, sadly. More light gets absorbed by dark hair, everything in the case of black hair. If you have really fair hair not much of the light from the laser gets absorbed by the hair and you can't destroy the roots of the hair.

[Alad]

That makes more sense with the science of it, actually. I guess I vacillate on whether I consider myself fair or dark of hair. I remember being sad I couldn't do laser.



I don't remember if it's that the laser passes too easily through lighter hair or it's just much harder to target the lighter follicle, but yes. Very blond people need a needle stuck into their pore and flooded with electricity instead of having light amplified between high and low energy state gasses and launched at their face.

Well, I'm not very blonde. at least not anymore. :smallbiggrin: (although I think I still probably count as fair) I shall look into it when I'm living on my own and on my own income ect. Thank you for the info. I'd looked it up before but I didnt see anything on hair color being relevant.

[Asta Kask]

Yup, sadly. More light gets absorbed by dark hair, everything in the case of black hair. If you have really fair hair not much of the light from the laser gets absorbed by the hair and you can't destroy the roots of the hair.

Could you dye your beard?

ETA: I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.

[noparlpf]

Could you dye your beard?

ETA: I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.

That might not get into the root well enough for it to work. I dunno though.

[golentan]

Hi guys, I'm back. Confused as ever. My sexuality seems to have taken a definite veer towards the gay since last we spoke, but no idea how long if at all that will last, so...

I was hoping to get some advice on something. I think I got asked on a date. I signed up for a dating site a few years back, but have gotten basically no traction from anyone but illiterate mouthbreathers. Now, a fellow who seems nice and intelligent enough has asked to meet for coffee. I haven't felt any sparks in our conversation so far, but I've never really been on a casual date and I'm thinking maybe I should give it a shot. There's on concern that's bothering me, though.

His profile claims to be straight. I wouldn't normally worry about labeling discrepancies (I spent the better part of a year dating someone who identified as lesbian), but a couple months back I heard about someone locally who went out on what he thought was a date with a gentleman suitor found online and instead wound up on the receiving end of several baseball bats. This fellow doesn't seem like he's entrapping me, coffee is a fairly public proposition, but is this something to be worried about?

[noparlpf]

Hi guys, I'm back. Confused as ever. My sexuality seems to have taken a definite veer towards the gay since last we spoke, but no idea how long if at all that will last, so...

I was hoping to get some advice on something. I think I got asked on a date. I signed up for a dating site a few years back, but have gotten basically no traction from anyone but illiterate mouthbreathers. Now, a fellow who seems nice and intelligent enough has asked to meet for coffee. I haven't felt any sparks in our conversation so far, but I've never really been on a casual date and I'm thinking maybe I should give it a shot. There's on concern that's bothering me, though.

His profile claims to be straight. I wouldn't normally worry about labeling discrepancies (I spent the better part of a year dating someone who identified as lesbian), but a couple months back I heard about someone locally who went out on what he thought was a date with a gentleman suitor found online and instead wound up on the receiving end of several baseball bats. This fellow doesn't seem like he's entrapping me, coffee is a fairly public proposition, but is this something to be worried about?

Ask him about his sexuality tag?

Also, good to see you again.

[golentan]

Ask him about his sexuality tag?

Also, good to see you again.

Open and honest communication? Blasphemy! :smalltongue:

Good to see you too. How you been?

[noparlpf]

Open and honest communication? Blasphemy! :smalltongue:

Good to see you too. How you been?

I'm not much good with the humans so I like being straightforward. Worth a shot if nobody has a better idea.

Not so great right now, actually. I need to sort my head out. Kind of hoping for a snow day tomorrow.

[Proud Tortoise]

"Teach children how to think, not what to think."
Am I wrong in thinking that's the most important thing to remember while raising a child? Other than, you know, feeding it and such?

[golentan]

"Teach children how to think, not what to think."
Am I wrong in thinking that's the most important thing to remember while raising a child? Other than, you know, feeding it and such?

For me, a bigger one would be teach children to respect others and respect themselves. I'd rather not teach children how to think either, as I think they should find ways that work for them (one of the things that I've consistently found tutoring people is that a lot of clever people think they're stupid because they're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole: I like to try and give people 5 or 6 examples of mental tools to solve a problem and then recommend they come up with their own way, then show them any errors if they come to a clearly wrong answer).

[ArlEammon]

For me, a bigger one would be teach children to respect others and respect themselves. I'd rather not teach children how to think either, as I think they should find ways that work for them (one of the things that I've consistently found tutoring people is that a lot of clever people think they're stupid because they're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole: I like to try and give people 5 or 6 examples of mental tools to solve a problem and then recommend they come up with their own way, then show them any errors if they come to a clearly wrong answer).

People who taught me how to think in school made me ten times dumber and a hundred times less smart.

[Alad]

Hrm... education is not an easy one... I have plenty of objections with the way i was taught. (specifically. NO dont do it your way, even though it is faster and more effective. DO IT THE RIGHT WAY. and my all time favorite STOP WORKING AHEAD.)
Oh well. also I think that teachers really get shafted in terms of job respect and pay, for people who have to put up with children every day. and have a monumental impact on the lives of so many other people. They really should get a better deal, I mean your likely to do a better job if you feel like your getting a good deal out of it, or at least thats what I think.

[SiuiS]

Her job as an assassin building up to be a major complication is? :smallconfused:

No, but we both know posting a spoiler of stuff one thinks is offensive and saying "that's offensive" would just have folks look into the spoiler and complain about it :smallbiggrin:


Could you dye your beard?

ETA: I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.

Huh.

I don't think so. The stain wouldn't get deep enough. Whenever something requires tweezers, it's usually like, 4mm into the skin.

I've actually got one hair, just. One. Hair. That looks not like a hair but an organic needle. It's like a cricket leg stuck into my face. It's a chitinous tube and at first I thought it was just weird but then it grew back.
:smalleek:


Ask him about his sexuality tag?

Also, good to see you again.

Both of these things.

Have someone nearby as back up. Tell them you will text them an all clear if everything seems fine, immediately, ten minutes in, and twenty minutes in, and that you'll give them a heads up for a reset if anything happens like being lured somewhere else which could possibly out you in the same situation.

It's not much but having someone counting the breaths between "I'm here" and "all clear" gives you insurance so you can go ahead and enjoy yourself if it's an actual date.

[Eldest]

Ask him about his sexuality tag?

Seconding this, and just stick to public, well lit places. Probably best for meeting people off the internet in general that you don't trust tons. (e.g. thread meetup should be good, random guy offering to sell you a TV, stay safe)

[golentan]

Yeah, I was planning on letting a friend know where I was and who I was with. Updates during sounds like a good addition, thanks.

I'm paranoid about new people, anyway. I'd want a public meeting place for anyone I'd never met in person before, regardless.

[SiuiS]

Good stuff, then. I would still prefer you have an able bodied ally aggressor on your side and nearby for immediate deployment, but I am quite possibly a psychopath. :smallsmile:

[golentan]

Good stuff, then. I would still prefer you have an able bodied ally aggressor on your side and nearby for immediate deployment, but I am quite possibly a psychopath. :smallsmile:

You... do realize you're talking to someone with a kill count orders of magnitude greater than the total number of Homo Sapiens who have ever lived, right?

[SiuiS]

You... do realize you're talking to someone with a kill count orders of magnitude greater than the total number of Homo Sapiens who have ever lived, right?

That you're going in without backup is all the more surprising then O•:

[Eirala]

Could you dye your beard?

ETA: I'm sorry if this is a stupid question.

It is not, but sadly the answer is no, as noparlpf already said. That is, you can dye your beard, but it doesn't help you with laser hair removal.

The thing is, you don't want to heat up the hair above the skin which is the only part you can dye. To permanently remove the hair you need to heat up and destroy the root. You could theoretically bring dye into the skin deep enough that it dyes the root, but then you can also just zap it, which is was electrolysis is all about.


ION, i'll be going to uni now and write the third and last test (if you ignore the second one which i did not pass) this semester without any preparation. Fun~

[Philemonite]

Hi guys, I'm back. Confused as ever. My sexuality seems to have taken a definite veer towards the gay since last we spoke, but no idea how long if at all that will last, so...

I was hoping to get some advice on something. I think I got asked on a date. I signed up for a dating site a few years back, but have gotten basically no traction from anyone but illiterate mouthbreathers. Now, a fellow who seems nice and intelligent enough has asked to meet for coffee. I haven't felt any sparks in our conversation so far, but I've never really been on a casual date and I'm thinking maybe I should give it a shot. There's on concern that's bothering me, though.

His profile claims to be straight. I wouldn't normally worry about labeling discrepancies (I spent the better part of a year dating someone who identified as lesbian), but a couple months back I heard about someone locally who went out on what he thought was a date with a gentleman suitor found online and instead wound up on the receiving end of several baseball bats. This fellow doesn't seem like he's entrapping me, coffee is a fairly public proposition, but is this something to be worried about?

I second nop's suggestion.

Also, nice to see you.:smallamused:


Hrm... education is not an easy one... I have plenty of objections with the way i was taught. (specifically. NO dont do it your way, even though it is faster and more effective. DO IT THE RIGHT WAY. and my all time favorite STOP WORKING AHEAD.)

I am getting elementary school math flashbacks.
Whenever I skipped a few steps (in writing) my teacher asked me to explain. Luckily, she realized I was actually doing it in my head, not just guessing the right answer.:smalltongue:


but I am quite possibly a psychopath. :smallsmile:

But in a good way.:smallamused:

[SiuiS]

But in a good way.:smallamused:

I'd like to think so!

[KenderWizard]

Good to see you, Golly! If I meet anyone from the internet, I meet them in a place I know well, with at least two exits, near a safe place, with one or more people aware of where I am and who I'm with and when I expect to be back. In this case, I would also recommend meeting in a gay-friendly area. No sense meeting in public if "public" are homophobes who don't step in to help. Got a nearby gay bar that does coffee?


Hello everyone! *offers scritches* Just happened upon this forum, and just wanted to share a story.

Spoiler'd for length.
In middle school I realized something that was different. Being bi for girls was cool and awesome... But being bi for guys was terrible and horrendous. (In the eyes of most other students that is) And for some reason this made me not want to come out. I am a girl, but it just blew my mind that the reactions for some things could be so different once gender was involved. Finally one night, I was talking on the phone with my best friend. (this wasn't exactly anything new or exciting, we literally had 16 hour phone calls most days that we didn't have school) and he sort of sighed to me and told me that he really needed to tell me something. I decided that I really needed to tell him something too, but I said that I would listen to him first. I remember the exact words that happened next. "I'm going to tell you... and then I'm gonna hang up the phone and go to bed... so that way you get a chance to think about it." Me: "... Uhm Okay sure." Him: "Well... Here goes... I'm Bi." and quickly, before he could hang up the phone I whispered "Me too." And that was the best day of our lives. We headed a LGBTQ group at our school, advocating awareness and support all throughout high school, distributing Day of Silence waivers and duct tape to those who signed the agreement to get duct tape. It was the best decision of my life. Of course we eventually ended up not being friends (as life goes) but the LGBTQ group at our school still remains and teams up with the Improv group every year to put on a very humorous play. I just wanted to let everyone know that it helps to talk to someone! Be it a random person on here, a friend, or a guidance counselor, someone will help. And if they don't, then they are clearly the wrong person to talk to.

Thank you for sharing, that made me smile. :smallsmile:


http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7044/oprahbees.gif

This is one of my all time favourite gifs! Someday I'm going to be like "BEES!! AHAHAHA!!" and my younger grandchildren will be like "What's up with Granny?" and my older grandchildren will be like "I have no idea, she just shouts 'BEES!!' and laughs sometimes and then mutters stuff about someone called 'Opera' or something."

[SiuiS]

This is one of my all time favourite gifs! Someday I'm going to be like "BEES!! AHAHAHA!!" and my younger grandchildren will be like "What's up with Granny?" and my older grandchildren will be like "I have no idea, she just shouts 'BEES!!' and laughs sometimes and then mutters stuff about someone called 'Opera' or something."

"What, like, the browser? You're weird, grandma."

[NeroGrimm]

Hola, amigops. How are we all today?

[SiuiS]

I found out the fun way that Brie (the cheese) might be a migraine trigger. My only migraine trigger.

Otherwise, good!

[noparlpf]

It's practically a blizzard outside and they didn't cancel school. My car was skidding on the way here. Also, I feel kind of like a panic attack might happen today. I want to go back to bed.

[Asta Kask]

I found out the fun way that Brie (the cheese) might be a migraine trigger. My only migraine trigger.

Otherwise, good!

Had you been drinking grapefruit?

ETA: Huh... I never realized Wonder Woman's weakness was BDSM.

[Eldest]

Had you been drinking grapefruit?

ETA: Huh... I never realized Wonder Woman's weakness was BDSM.

...Lasso of Truth. What did you expect?

[Asta Kask]

So she loses her powers if tied up... but only if a man does it.

...

I think I'll go now.

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/3/3/2/91332_v1.jpg

Ahh, feminism. I can hear you whimpering as I tie you up.

[SMEE]

That Wonder Woman weakness is... long gone.
I believe it was gone even before Crisis on Infinite Earths. :smallconfused:

[SiuiS]

Had you been drinking grapefruit?

No, why? It was a sandwich.


ETA: Huh... I never realized Wonder Woman's weakness was BDSM.

Why not? It's one of mine. u_u


So she loses her powers if tied up... but only if a man does it.

...

I think I'll go now.

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/3/3/2/91332_v1.jpg

Ahh, feminism. I can hear you whimpering as I tie you up.

Eh. I think that actually works well. If she relinquishes her sovereignty, she loses her sovereignty. That's tautological but interesting. It depends on where they take it.

[Eldest]

So she loses her powers if tied up... but only if a man does it.

...

I think I'll go now.

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/3/3/2/91332_v1.jpg

Ahh, feminism. I can hear you whimpering as I tie you up.

Huh. She has bracelets of submission already. And can't let a man tie them together.

Who should we be shipping her with?

[Lentrax]

Yeah, I think it vanished sometime in the 70s.

Good thing her enemies have several other options to choose from to deal lasting damage to Wonder Woman.

Like bullets. Or an enraged Superman.

Or poison.(A really common theme for her it seems)

[The Succubus]

Interesting phrase, given that being as weak as other women in a man ruled world must also include Catwoman, Supergirl, Hawkgirl and even Death herself (Sandman being very briefly part of the DC Universe). :smalltongue:

Still, at least we now know why Smee's avatar carries those handcuffs around with her.

[Asta Kask]

No, why? It was a sandwich.

Never mind. Turns out I was confusing two different things. :smallredface:

[Zorg]

Why Wonder Woman is awesome:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/d5f1e16db3d5b96a845de6010f2f51da/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo1_250.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/e9f44915a46576ab5bb4e1f1bd478f5d/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo2_250.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/42bc9ad312fb26a98b56bef7931e70e3/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo3_250.gif http://24.media.tumblr.com/e922ffe78fbea5f8e9a08be15b2a37bf/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo4_250.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/0dc89cd2c357cc5c07de33294c7042da/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo5_250.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/d998d0adb114e54ebdac4224ebbab9cc/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo6_250.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d0f0f1bcff9d4419cfa8633117dfcba4/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo7_250.gif http://24.media.tumblr.com/792f0b7c4205220a170befb8be2f06f0/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo8_250.gif

(WW is very important to me)

[SiuiS]

Why Wonder Woman is awesome:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/d5f1e16db3d5b96a845de6010f2f51da/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo1_250.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/e9f44915a46576ab5bb4e1f1bd478f5d/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo2_250.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/42bc9ad312fb26a98b56bef7931e70e3/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo3_250.gif http://24.media.tumblr.com/e922ffe78fbea5f8e9a08be15b2a37bf/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo4_250.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/0dc89cd2c357cc5c07de33294c7042da/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo5_250.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/d998d0adb114e54ebdac4224ebbab9cc/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo6_250.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d0f0f1bcff9d4419cfa8633117dfcba4/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo7_250.gif http://24.media.tumblr.com/792f0b7c4205220a170befb8be2f06f0/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo8_250.gif

(WW is very important to me)

Yeah, Wonder Woman is pretty fantastic, and tumblr has done a good job of showing it. My favorite is WW in the old west. "God these shoes are terrible!" "... You fight in heels." "I fight in heels that fit."

[Asta Kask]

Can you smash something like slut-shaming and not be judgmental about it? I mean, by smashing it you're pretty much saying it's bad, aren't you?

[BladeofObliviom]

Can you smash something like slut-shaming and not be judgmental about it? I mean, by smashing it you're pretty much saying it's bad, aren't you?

Presumably what is meant is that she was smashing the argument but refusing to judge the person making said argument.

You know, like how rational arguing is supposed to work but never actually seems to. :smallwink:

[Asta Kask]

But if someone is slut-shaming, isn't it appropriate to judge them?

If it's wrong to slut-shame, and people who do things that are wrong should be judged... Like Popper says, a maximum of tolerance leads to no tolerance at all.

[Coidzor]

But if someone is slut-shaming, isn't it appropriate to judge them?

If it's wrong to slut-shame, and people who do things that are wrong should be judged... Like Popper says, a maximum of tolerance leads to no tolerance at all.

You can't just go around decapitating people though, is the thing, so you have to use some nuance and judgment as to how you go about judging people.

Sometimes all you need to do is deflate the argument entirely and that public humiliation will be enough without also rubbing their faces in it on top of it and making one's self look bad when one doesn't need to.

[Iruka]

Hi everyone, I got a haircut this morning and got my usually slightly curly hair straightened. I took a few pictures and while the scarf hides my pretty awful chin and throat I'm pretty happy with them. :smallsmile:

Linky. (http://imgur.com/a/xiFak)

You kinda look like a girl I once had a crush on. :smallredface:

[Asta Kask]

You can't just go around decapitating people though, is the thing, so you have to use some nuance and judgment as to how you go about judging people.

Sometimes all you need to do is deflate the argument entirely and that public humiliation will be enough without also rubbing their faces in it on top of it and making one's self look bad when one doesn't need to.

Oh, absolutely.

It's just that there's a tendency in our culture to say that all moral judgments are meaningless, flatus vocis. I think that's dangerous so I like to argue against it when I can.

[Skeppio]

Why Wonder Woman is awesome:

The thing I don't understand is, some people will say her costume is awful and degrading, despite her saying it empowers her, and the sex-positive aspects of the views going around. Aren't those people in a way also slut-shaming? Or is it only bad if a man is designing the costumes (I've seen a lot of that hypocrisy). And would that mean my art is "degrading" too, since I draw cute girls n stuff?

...I don't get people. I'm probably digging too far into irrelevant topics. I'm gonna slink away and just draw what I want, like cute girls and guys, and demihumans, and sometimes big scary monsters. ._.

[Ahmanae]

Hello everybody!

[SiuiS]

Can you smash something like slut-shaming and not be judgmental about it? I mean, by smashing it you're pretty much saying it's bad, aren't you?

I dunno. Being judgmental is casting judgement on the person, not the action, right? The idea being that a person can change their mind. But then, heck, sometimes judgement if people is fine. It's a very complex subject.


But if someone is slut-shaming, isn't it appropriate to judge them?

If it's wrong to slut-shame, and people who do things that are wrong should be judged... Like Popper says, a maximum of tolerance leads to no tolerance at all.

That's true. But a faulty argument can be engaged and deconstructed without attacking the person. Judging the person and not the action quickly leads to as hominem attacks. Really, what you need is discernment in yourself more than a set of rules by which to violently engage another.

[Coidzor]

Hello everybody!

Ahoy-hoy! :smallsmile:


The thing I don't understand is, some people will say her costume is awful and degrading, despite her saying it empowers her, and the sex-positive aspects of the views going around. Aren't those people in a way also slut-shaming? Or is it only bad if a man is designing the costumes (I've seen a lot of that hypocrisy). And would that mean my art is "degrading" too, since I draw cute girls n stuff?

Arguing against objectification of women is not quite the same thing as slut-shaming. Telling a dudebro their character design and characterization is harmful/bad/just plain wrong is not the same thing as telling a woman that the way she personally dresses of her own free will is setting back Feminism 30/50/100/150 years.

Similarly, disapproving of people cheating in relationships isn't slut-shaming (by most metrics) unless one only disapproves of women doing it or something equally egregious/hypocritical, such as actively contributing to an environment of relationships that have no mutual interest and either no or reduced ability to leave said relationships, leaving people trapped and in some cases driven to cheat.

As for where the line between sexy and objectifying is drawn... *shrug* I'm waiting for a position that feels reasonable and isn't just "I know it when I see it," but I'm starting to suspect that like obscenity, it's impossible to put a finer point on it.


Oh, absolutely.

It's just that there's a tendency in our culture to say that all moral judgments are meaningless, flatus vocis. I think that's dangerous so I like to argue against it when I can.
It would be nice to have a medium between disregarding such things and embracing even immoral moral judgments, yeah.

Granted, I see a lot more facetiously treating morality as if it didn't exist because moral relativism than actual serious disregard for any and all moral judgments. And I see even more of an embrace of moral judgments regardless of their validity, morality, or negative impact on society and those who embrace such moral judgments. :/

[Lentrax]

Wonder Woman: I love her costume. Not just from a masculine 'Its a half-naked chick. Har-har.'

I like it because they could have changed it over the years. As Superheroes changed and evolved, so did their costumes. But the one who changed the absolute least, aside from becoming more sleek, is Wonder Woman.

I totally envisage her as a real person, taking something determined by the men who first drew her, and saying: "You may have given this to me to demean me, or objectify me, but I am going take it. I am going to take this and make it my own. I will make this so recognizable, that people will equate it with a symbol of the power in my femininity. It's mine now, and the people will love me for it."

[SiuiS]

There was that time where she got time-warped and had a jacket, jeans, and and a wonder buckle redneck belt.

[Asta Kask]

I dunno. Being judgmental is casting judgement on the person, not the action, right? The idea being that a person can change their mind. But then, heck, sometimes judgement if people is fine. It's a very complex subject.

Shaming can be an extremely powerful motivator to do, or not do, something even if it feels natural. Any trans* person probably knows that, but we can also use that against the homophobes as long as we can get the numbers. A crucial point here is that in order to give shaming power, we must know that there are many who agree. That's one reason why it's so important for people to come out*, that's one reason why allies are so important, and why it is important to be a public ally*. It shows how many we are, and when we are enough it becomes embarrassing to yell slurs at or even beat up people for being different. That would be a step forward.

*if you are a trans person, or an ally, who's not out - I don't intend to put pressure on you. Always consider the cost of coming out and be safe, ok.


That's true. But a faulty argument can be engaged and deconstructed without attacking the person. Judging the person and not the action quickly leads to as hominem attacks. Really, what you need is discernment in yourself more than a set of rules by which to violently engage another.

Some arguments. But one of my favorite philosophers is Karl Popper, who said "No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude."* In that case, shaming can be very effective. At the very least, it may make others who listen question if they really want to be on the same side as that guy.

*Another of my favorite authors is Shakespeare, who said "Drink is a great provoker of nose-painting, sleep, and urine."

[Mina Kobold]

The thing I don't understand is, some people will say her costume is awful and degrading, despite her saying it empowers her, and the sex-positive aspects of the views going around. Aren't those people in a way also slut-shaming? Or is it only bad if a man is designing the costumes (I've seen a lot of that hypocrisy). And would that mean my art is "degrading" too, since I draw cute girls n stuff?

...I don't get people. I'm probably digging too far into irrelevant topics. I'm gonna slink away and just draw what I want, like cute girls and guys, and demihumans, and sometimes big scary monsters. ._.

Because Wonder Woman is not a real person, but a character made to dress and want to dress the way she does as a choice by the creator. The reason she feels empowered by her costume is not because she chose it, but because the storytellers chose it. Often, the reason for the choice lies in the creators' views on women or lack of criticism of traditions based on archaic views, especially with much of mainstream comic art (the change over time from large shorts to a thong for WW is pretty suspect, for example.)

This doesn't mean a character can't be sexy or that drawing people you find cute is bad, just that it is problematic when the standard comic-book superheroine will be wearing a bathing suit for battle and posing in uncomfortable positions to accentuate her breasts and ass. It's not necessarily because someone wanted to focus on sex appeal above logic, but often because people draw what feels right. Sadly, what feels right is often based on what one has seen before, and thus may carry issues from before. Doesn't mean there's a problem with characters being sexy, cute or wearing less than average clothing is bad, just that it is necessary to criticise when it becomes the near-ubiquitous norm that women in fiction want to do is to fulfil straight guys' sexual fantasies (Specifying because it's generally not taken into consideration what anyone else who is gynosexual in some respect wants), whether people are actively trying to force it to be so.

On a tangent: that carry-over of past issues is kinda why a lot of my earlier characters who are women tend to be thin and very very white. Seriously, I counted, my DeviantArt's first 18 characters with human skin tones have only one who is not very very pale. And that's all fairly recent. >_<

[ArlEammon]

Why Wonder Woman is awesome:

http://31.media.tumblr.com/d5f1e16db3d5b96a845de6010f2f51da/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo1_250.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/e9f44915a46576ab5bb4e1f1bd478f5d/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo2_250.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/42bc9ad312fb26a98b56bef7931e70e3/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo3_250.gif http://24.media.tumblr.com/e922ffe78fbea5f8e9a08be15b2a37bf/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo4_250.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/0dc89cd2c357cc5c07de33294c7042da/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo5_250.gif http://25.media.tumblr.com/d998d0adb114e54ebdac4224ebbab9cc/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo6_250.gif

http://25.media.tumblr.com/d0f0f1bcff9d4419cfa8633117dfcba4/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo7_250.gif http://24.media.tumblr.com/792f0b7c4205220a170befb8be2f06f0/tumblr_mztl89Nupa1qhfadgo8_250.gif

(WW is very important to me)

Funny, but kind of stupid. Wonder Woman isn't dressed that skimpy. lol.

[golentan]

What I've seen of non-old-school wonder woman seems to be pretty good, but honestly I don't know enough to contribute, so... uh... Slut shaming is bad, y'all. And so is objectification of people.

On the subject of objectification, is it bad that I'm usually more attracted to trans people than cis people? It... came up in a discussion with a friend last night. I mean, I don't want to sexualize what's a problem for people, and I know that chasers are a real problem. But I keep finding myself dropping my jaw over transladies and gentlemen. *guilt face*

[Asta Kask]

Is it bad that I'm more attracted to redheads than to brown-haired women?

[SiuiS]

Shaming can be an extremely powerful motivator to do, or not do, something even if it feels natural. Any trans* person probably knows that, but we can also use that against the homophobes as long as we can get the numbers. A crucial point here is that in order to give shaming power, we must know that there are many who agree. That's one reason why it's so important for people to come out*, that's one reason why allies are so important, and why it is important to be a public ally*. It shows how many we are, and when we are enough it becomes embarrassing to yell slurs at or even beat up people for being different. That would be a step forward.

*if you are a trans person, or an ally, who's not out - I don't intend to put pressure on you. Always consider the cost of coming out and be safe, ok.

I can vaguely see how this applies, but it's not clicking for me.



Some arguments. But one of my favorite philosophers is Karl Popper, who said "No rational argument will have a rational effect on a man who does not want to adopt a rational attitude."* In that case, shaming can be very effective. At the very least, it may make others who listen question if they really want to be on the same side as that guy.

Och, aye. I don't like shame as an inflicted thing, however. Change has to come from within, which means it's just a more violent means of achieving the same thing.


Is it bad that I'm more attracted to redheads than to brown-haired women?

No. It is discrimination, but discrimination is not always bad and it's not being wielded in a fashion that would be bad, so it's clear. And attraction/romance/etc is an elective activity, so there's much more leeway.

[Asta Kask]

Escher girls. (http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/) Because bad drawing isn't limited to boobs.

[golentan]

Is it bad that I'm more attracted to redheads than to brown-haired women?

Have I been horribly overthinking things?

[Miriel]

We have more than 300 signatures on our trans* rights petition. Yay :smallsmile: And I have a meeting with the vice-rector of student affairs and a radio interview on the campus radio. And there'll another article on trans* stuff soon in the college paper. :smallsmile:

... Wow. It's strange how 4-5 months ago, I was just a lost soul in a gender limbo, and now, I'm some kind of authority and leader for trans* rights at my college. :smallredface:

I should get myself some sort of student involvement scholarships.


Oh, absolutely.

It's just that there's a tendency in our culture to say that all moral judgments are meaningless, flatus vocis. I think that's dangerous so I like to argue against it when I can.
But it's also dangerous to say that your moral judgements are obviously right when most of us, in the Western World, are very privileged individuals in many different ways.

[Zorg]

My point about the non-judgemental aspect was that WW took the criticism, went "you're wrong, I'm awesome - you should be awesome to!" rather than ridiculing him as would be the cutural norm in such a situation. I mean seriously - a cartoon has a grown man saying he likes to cross-dress as Wonder Woman and it's not a joke but a teachable moment.
I have very personal reasons that this resonates with me perhaps more than others - my literal earliest memory is wanting to dress up as Wonder Woman and being laughed at for it - but I still think it's a good example.

Well basically it's in the name. Like say you're someone who is attracted to women, and you also like doritos. You walk into a party and see a bowl of doritos on the table. You also see a very attractive lady in a low cut top.
Now, the expectation is that the doritos are there for your enjoyment and for you to consume at your discretion with no need to ask permission. I mean they're just sitting out there for everyone to see so of course you can.

Now, if you treat the attractive lady the same way - she is "putting it on display" so thus if because you find her attractive you see here as something , to sate your hungers, not a person any more - that's what I would call objectification.
Now, I don't think objectification is inherently bad, but only when:

1) the objectified person is a willing participant

&

2) being objectified is not the norm (as it will generally cancel out #1 anyway).

This also applies to things like attraction to different "types" of people. For instance I apparently have a thing for blondes, given my dating history, but it's a very superficial thing and I'm really tired so can't articulate this bit properly so hopefully it makes sense.

But as Golentan mentioned there are a lot of views on objectification (to put it mildly), and these are mine so I'm not up for a debate on it, just sharing thoughts.

[Mina Kobold]

On the subject of objectification, is it bad that I'm usually more attracted to trans people than cis people? It... came up in a discussion with a friend last night. I mean, I don't want to sexualize what's a problem for people, and I know that chasers are a real problem. But I keep finding myself dropping my jaw over transladies and gentlemen. *guilt face*

Most likely not, seeing as the issues with chasers lie in treating trans people as a fetish and as "exotic" objects, rather than simply being attracted to people. Being attracted to a subset of one or more genders merely means that you are attracted to traits that are most common in that group. Like Asta's example with hair colour, or with someone who tend to be attracted more easily by people that are shorter or taller than them.

In essence, what matters is what you do with your attraction. If you treat people as people and are not basing your wish to date them on whether or not they are trans*, you should be fine.

*e.g. if one of the people you've already dropped a jaw at turned out to be genderqueer, agender, cisgender or otherwise not trans, it would not nullify the attraction.


Escher girls. (http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/) Because bad drawing isn't limited to boobs.

I read that. By which I mean I read everypost andI'msuchageek. >_<

Ahem, I'd also add Repair her Armor (http://repair-her-armor.tumblr.com/) and Bikini Armor Battle Damage (http://bikiniarmorbattledamage.tumblr.com/) (Warning, their avatar image depicts someone shot by arrows due to lack of armour) to the list.

[Asta Kask]

We have more than 300 signatures on our trans* rights petition. Yay :smallsmile: And I have a meeting with the vice-rector of student affairs and a radio interview on the campus radio. And there'll another article on trans* stuff soon in the college paper. :smallsmile:

... Wow. It's strange how 4-5 months ago, I was just a lost soul in a gender limbo, and now, I'm some kind of authority and leader for trans* rights at my college. :smallredface:

I should get myself some sort of student involvement scholarships.

How many students are there?


But it's also dangerous to say that your moral judgements are obviously right when most of us, in the Western World, are very privileged individuals in many different ways.

Absolutely. I return to Popper, because he really says things so much better than I do.

We could then say that rationalism is an attitude of readiness to listten to critical arguments and to learn from experience. It is fundamentally an attitude of admitting that 'I may be wrong and you may be right, and by an effort, we may get nearer to the truth'. It is an attitude which does not lightly give up hope that by such means as argument and careful observation, people may reach some kind of agreement on many problems of importance; and that, even where their demands and their interests clash, it is often possible to argue about the various demands and proposals, it is often possible to argue about the various demands and proposals and to reach - perhaps by arbitration - a compromise which, because of its equity, is acceptable to most, if not to all. In short, the reationalist attitude, or, as I may perhaps label it, the 'attitude of reasonableness', is very similar to the scientific attitude, to the belief that in in the search for truth we need co-operation, and that, with the help of argument, we can in time attain something like objectivity. (The Open Society and Its Enemies, volume 2; p.225.

I may have to reread Popper.

There are two opposite standpoints, both dogmatic. One is that "I know, and I cannot be swayed by arguments or experience." We all know that there are people like that. The other standpoint is "I don't know, you don't know, no one knows, no one will ever know, and therefore all viewpoints are equal." People like this also occurs, although they tend to restrict this to moral knowledge which is weird and has to do with David Hume. And here I quote yet another person, Sam Harris:


Morality must relate, at some level, to the well-being of conscious creatures. If there are more and less effective ways for us to seek happiness and to avoid misery in this world - and there clearly are - then there are right and wrong answers to questions of morality.

The foundation of morals and the attitude of reasonableness are the what I strive to base my morality on.

[Coidzor]

On the subject of objectification, is it bad that I'm usually more attracted to trans people than cis people? It... came up in a discussion with a friend last night. I mean, I don't want to sexualize what's a problem for people, and I know that chasers are a real problem. But I keep finding myself dropping my jaw over transladies and gentlemen. *guilt face*

Only if you believe any observation of a difference between a trans person and a cis person should be ignored or pretended that it doesn't actually exist because anyone who is attracted to a trans person without being unable to differentiate them from a cis person is automatically a chaser who is a horrible monster who fetishizes and dehumanizes trans people.

[SMEE]

Let the record state that Wonder Woman, Power Girl, Super Girl are all awesome and I wish I was 1/4th as awesome as they are.

[KenderWizard]

Eh. I think that actually works well. If she relinquishes her sovereignty, she loses her sovereignty. That's tautological but interesting. It depends on where they take it.

Yeah, the problem isn't that she can be "demoted" if she allows herself to be restrained, the problem is in all the gender-coding that surrounds it: that it's only if a man does it, that she's "demoted" to a "normal woman" who is obviously powerless and helpless.


The thing I don't understand is, some people will say her costume is awful and degrading, despite her saying it empowers her, and the sex-positive aspects of the views going around. Aren't those people in a way also slut-shaming? Or is it only bad if a man is designing the costumes (I've seen a lot of that hypocrisy). And would that mean my art is "degrading" too, since I draw cute girls n stuff?


It's all context. First of all, there's a HUGE difference between a real woman choosing -- without coercion or pressure -- a revealing outfit that makes her feel sexy, and a comic book artist drawing a woman in a costume specifically designed and intended to show her off as a sex object for presumed-straight-cis-men to ogle.

Within art, there's always lots of fuzzy grey lines between "this is okay", "this might be okay", "you're pushing it now" and "what is wrong with you, that is not okay!!". And those lines are in different places for different people. I would say that if it's art you mean to share, then clothes -- like anything else about the character -- should have an in-universe explanation. "This character wears short shorts because she finds any kind of trousers too restrictive to fight in, plus she loves showing off her superheroically toned legs!" is an excellent reason, and might be signified in her stance (powerful and ready to kick some butt) or her speech ("Skirts aren't for me, I'm all about freedom of movement, baby!") or just implied in some way. The reason "This character wears short shorts so I can get in some panty shots for the dudes stuck reading/watching about a woman lol!" is a terrible reason. EVEN if it's porn. That doesnt mean you're not _allowed_ use it as a reason, there's no thought police, just that it's not woman-friendly and not good characterisation.

[Miriel]

How many students are there?

... Lots. Something like 30-40k. But we can only reach so many of them in a few hours.

[golentan]

Kender's explanations make everything better.

ED: Would non-student signatures be helpful at all?

[Asta Kask]

... Lots. Something like 30-40k. But we can only reach so many of them in a few hours.

And you got 1% in a few hours? That's amazing!

This is enormously important, because - again - it creates an environment where people know that if they say something transphobic, there will probably be people - maybe lots of people - who disapprove. And that in itself makes people uncomfortable if they think about doing that. Self-censorship is necessary in a social animal, and it's not always bad*.

What do you do if he offers a compromise? Say that he knows many students would be uncomfortable going to unigender toilets, and that he designates one-third of the toilets unigender? Evenly sprinkled on campus, of course, so you don't have to run a marathon every time you need to pee.

* (in fact, I'd argue that it's most often good in a society constructed around a proper morality, and that our society is a pretty good one)

[Miriel]

ED: Would non-student signatures be helpful at all?
We're really looking for signatures from students and staff from the university. It's a paper petition, so if you asked because you wanted to sign, it'll be difficult :smalltongue:


And you got 1% in a few hours? That's amazing!

This is enormously important, because - again - it creates an environment where people know that if they say something transphobic, there will probably be people - maybe lots of people - who disapprove. And that in itself makes people uncomfortable if they think about doing that. Self-censorship is necessary in a social animal, and it's not always bad*.

* (in fact, I'd argue that it's most often good in a society constructed around a proper morality, and that our society is a pretty good one)
That's what we hope :smallsmile: But we also want people to know that yes, we do face specific issues and that we want to solve them.


What do you do if he offers a compromise? Say that he knows many students would be uncomfortable going to unigender toilets, and that he designates one-third of the toilets unigender? Evenly sprinkled on campus, of course, so you don't have to run a marathon every time you need to pee.
We're mostly trying to redesignate the few single-occupancy bathrooms on campus, and make them add new ones like that on future buidings. We don't intend to change any larger spaces.

[SiuiS]

Escher girls. (http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/) Because bad drawing isn't limited to boobs.

Man, I had sleep to do. >_<


My point about the non-judgemental aspect was that WW took the criticism, went "you're wrong, I'm awesome - you should be awesome to!" rather than ridiculing him as would be the cutural norm in such a situation. I mean seriously - a cartoon has a grown man saying he likes to cross-dress as Wonder Woman and it's not a joke but a teachable moment.
I have very personal reasons that this resonates with me perhaps more than others - my literal earliest memory is wanting to dress up as Wonder Woman and being laughed at for it - but I still think it's a good example.

Well basically it's in the name. Like say you're someone who is attracted to women, and you also like doritos. You walk into a party and see a bowl of doritos on the table. You also see a very attractive lady in a low cut top.
Now, the expectation is that the doritos are there for your enjoyment and for you to consume at your discretion with no need to ask permission. I mean they're just sitting out there for everyone to see so of course you can.

Now, if you treat the attractive lady the same way - she is "putting it on display" so thus if because you find her attractive you see here as something , to sate your hungers, not a person any more - that's what I would call objectification.
Now, I don't think objectification is inherently bad, but only when:

1) the objectified person is a willing participant

&

2) being objectified is not the norm (as it will generally cancel out #1 anyway).

This also applies to things like attraction to different "types" of people. For instance I apparently have a thing for blondes, given my dating history, but it's a very superficial thing and I'm really tired so can't articulate this bit properly so hopefully it makes sense.

But as Golentan mentioned there are a lot of views on objectification (to put it mildly), and these are mine so I'm not up for a debate on it, just sharing thoughts.



Man, why couldn't I be that succinct in that whole thread for this stuff?
Or was that a tangent here? Och, I'm crossing streams.



Absolutely. I return to Popper, because he really says things so much better than I do.

I may have to reread Popper.

There are two opposite standpoints, both dogmatic. One is that "I know, and I cannot be swayed by arguments or experience." We all know that there are people like that. The other standpoint is "I don't know, you don't know, no one knows, no one will ever know, and therefore all viewpoints are equal." People like this also occurs, although they tend to restrict this to moral knowledge which is weird and has to do with David Hume. And here I quote yet another person, Sam Harris:

The foundation of morals and the attitude of reasonableness are the what I strive to base my morality on.

Neat. Who are these guys that I could find this stuff?



* (in fact, I'd argue that it's most often good in a society constructed around a proper morality, and that our society is a pretty good one)

How would one define proper morality, though? I assume this means proper in the sense that the equation is sound, without actually having to define the variables?

[Asta Kask]

We're really looking for signatures from students and staff from the university. It's a paper petition, so if you asked because you wanted to sign, it'll be difficult :smalltongue:

Not at all. All we have to do is sign up at the university. :smallsmile:


That's what we hope :smallsmile: But we also want people to know that yes, we do face specific issues and that we want to solve them.

Well, every year is a little better than the day before. We often miss the slow changes just because they're slow. I wonder if this would have been possible 10 years ago? 20 years ago? Yes, it's taking time, and yes things could reverse themselves, but we are winning. The West is getting more tolerant, slowly but surely.

Now we just have to get the rest of the world to agree to the rainbow slogan.


We're mostly trying to redesignate the few single-occupancy bathrooms on campus, and make them add new ones like that on future buidings. We don't intend to change any larger spaces.

Well, it's a first step. Who knows what the next generation can do? :smallsmile:


Neat. Who are these guys that I could find this stuff?

Karl Popper is most well known for his work in the philosophy of science, but he also wrote The Open Society and Its Enemies (2 volumes) as a defense of democracy and the open society, tracing the roots of totalitarianism to people like Heracleitus and Plato forward to our time. I will not say more about the politics, but if you can find the books online or in a library they are well worth the read.

Sam Harris have written a number of very inflammatory books on religion - I'm not even going to give the titles here - but if you look for him online he's easy to find.


How would one define proper morality, though? I assume this means proper in the sense that the equation is sound, without actually having to define the variables?

That's the central problem. Sam Harris says that morality is concerned with the suffering of conscious creatures, and is some kind of utilitarianist (greatest possible utility for the greatest number of creatures). There's a lot of problems with that position, beginning with how to measure and aggregate suffering (are two creatures suffering 'x' twice as bad as one creature suffering 'x').

I'm more of a virtue ethicist myself. There are a number of values that are important to me and I try to live a life so that I follow these values. But how do I determine which virtues to follow? That's a knotty problem.

And the third major direction of ethics is deontology, where you select a number of rules and follow them. So Kant, for instance, says its wrong to lie and he means that. You're not allowed to lie even if it saves a life, or if it saves the world. How do I determine what rules to follow?

You may see that there's a common theme here - how do we get to the basics of ethics. This is a topic called metaethics and I can't say that much about that topic because it always put me to sleep. :smallsmile:

[Iruka]

Karl Popper is most well known for his work in the philosophy of science, but he also wrote The Open Society and Its Enemies (2 volumes) as a defense of democracy and the open society, tracing the roots of totalitarianism to people like Hera****us and Plato forward to our time. I will not say more about the politics, but if you can find the books online or in a library they are well worth the read.


Hera who? :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Hera who? :smalltongue:

Take your pick. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracleitus_%28disambiguation%29)

[TaiLiu]

Has anything exciting occurred while I was away?

Also, how's the conversation going, SMEE?

[Skeppio]

I'm still a bit confused. So it's fine to draw characters in skimpy or "sexy" outfits and stuff, as long as there's a reason for said stuff beyond "boobs to ogle"? Like say, someone wearing less armour because they value dexterity. Does it count if it's a part of the character's personality? Say, I have a character who just rpefers to wear that sort of stuff? Or is that part of "bad sexist writing"?
Of course, I want to draw more male characters as well, I'm a bit out of practice with them. Maybe I should alternate?

I just don't want to offend people, but at the same time, it's just what I like to draw. So I worry a lot about my art, even if not that many people view it. So it's not like I'd be a big enough name to generate controversy or anything. I just worry. I'm just confused. :c

[Asta Kask]

Caroline is slowly turning her university into trans central. Won't somebody think of the children?!?!

[Mystic Muse]

I think what people are arguing is the intent is what matters. What is your intent for drawing the character in that outfit/pose/etc?

Now, there's nothing wrong with porn. It's when people try to argue porn and things like it are intended to be empowering, when that's basically not the point of porn at all.

[Lentrax]

I'm still a bit confused. So it's fine to draw characters in skimpy or "sexy" outfits and stuff, as long as there's a reason for said stuff beyond "boobs to ogle"? Like say, someone wearing less armour because they value dexterity. Does it count if it's a part of the character's personality? Say, I have a character who just rpefers to wear that sort of stuff? Or is that part of "bad sexist writing"?
Of course, I want to draw more male characters as well, I'm a bit out of practice with them. Maybe I should alternate?

I just don't want to offend people, but at the same time, it's just what I like to draw. So I worry a lot about my art, even if not that many people view it. So it's not like I'd be a big enough name to generate controversy or anything. I just worry. I'm just confused. :c

It really, I think, all comes down to portrayal. If you draw a woman in a metal bikini, just to have something to stare at, then yeah, its demeaning. Like the horde of guys in MMOs who play a female avatar because "If I'm gonna watch something run around for 8 hours, it'd better have an ass I can look at."

But if its something like, for example, this version of Wonder Woman:
http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/118/8/4/wonder_woman_by_jeffach-d59egpa.jpg

Which is revealing enough to appeal to the senses of the adolenscent male, but is not distastefully so. (For an example of something counter to this, look at what 'normal' young adult women wear for swimsuits regular clothing these days.

I think, that if it would be something that makes sense for the character, then it would not offend the common person. The trouble is when you put it out there, that the people who think its offensive will be very vocal about it, whereas the people who just like it, won't say anything at all, beyond maybe a quick "I like this."

So, I say, just go for it, Skeppers. And to hades with what anyone else thinks about it. Its your art after all.

[Heliomance]

As regards the Wonder Woman gifset, it's apparently more problematic than it appears at first glance. (http://ami-angelwings.tumblr.com/post/74372349657/is-nobody-else-going-to-push-back-against-this-horrible)

[Mono Vertigo]

As regards the Wonder Woman gifset, it's apparently more problematic than it appears at first glance. (http://ami-angelwings.tumblr.com/post/74372349657/is-nobody-else-going-to-push-back-against-this-horrible)
I like this gifset, and I avoid Tumblr like the plague for my own sanity, but honestly, I have to agree with that.
(Also where fiction is concerned, characters are not actually people with their own thoughts. It's trivially easy for a creator to pretend the character feels better in a skimpy outfit but have designed the outfit for less noble reasons. In fact, I'm sure it has already been criticized in these very threads. So, am I missing something here?)

[SiuiS]

Karl Popper is most well known for his work in the philosophy of science, but he also wrote The Open Society and Its Enemies (2 volumes) as a defense of democracy and the open society, tracing the roots of totalitarianism to people like Hera****us and Plato forward to our time. I will not say more about the politics, but if you can find the books online or in a library they are well worth the read.

Sam Harris have written a number of very inflammatory books on religion - I'm not even going to give the titles here - but if you look for him online he's easy to find.
Neat.



That's the central problem. Sam Harris says that morality is concerned with the suffering of conscious creatures, and is some kind of utilitarianist (greatest possible utility for the greatest number of creatures). There's a lot of problems with that position, beginning with how to measure and aggregate suffering (are two creatures suffering 'x' twice as bad as one creature suffering 'x').

I'm more of a virtue ethicist myself. There are a number of values that are important to me and I try to live a life so that I follow these values. But how do I determine which virtues to follow? That's a knotty problem.

And the third major direction of ethics is deontology, where you select a number of rules and follow them. So Kant, for instance, says its wrong to lie and he means that. You're not allowed to lie even if it saves a life, or if it saves the world. How do I determine what rules to follow?

You may see that there's a common theme here - how do we get to the basics of ethics. This is a topic called metaethics and I can't say that much about that topic because it always put me to sleep. :smallsmile:

I actually had a response to this, hours ago! But then hours passed. XD


As regards the Wonder Woman gifset, it's apparently more problematic than it appears at first glance. (http://ami-angelwings.tumblr.com/post/74372349657/is-nobody-else-going-to-push-back-against-this-horrible)

I believe it. At first glance, the last part is nice (the guy in the lasso), but the first part with the slut shaming kinda undercuts it by adding an agenda, if nothing else.

*reads*

Hm.


Regardless of those distinctions, shaming cross-dressers enforces the gender binary and does harm to trans people. We need to work toward a culture where people can explore their identity and express their gender however they want, without judgment.

Hmmm.


Despite that, though, I have absolutely zero doubt that cross-dressing was only brought up in the first place because whoever wrote this wanted the lasso to force him to admit something really, really embarrassing. The perceived shame of gender nonconformity may be undermined (at least nominally) by Wonder Woman’s line, but that doesn’t change the fact that the idea that it’s shameful is the only reason gender nonconformity comes up at all.


Hmm hmm hmmmm.


But instead of actually mounting a defense of her right to be scary and swing a sword, Wonder Woman chooses to make sure nobody ever listens to this guy again by publicly outing him as a cross-dresser. No matter how much of a misogynistic jerk he is, that’s really not okay.

Aha.



Seems I was right! How novel~!
The inclusive clause there, "and" in this guy's speech, sort of changes the topic. It seems to me that how he feels about Wonder Woman swinging the sword is not really a problem, it's a pretty face put onto his dislike, which is a complex mix of misogyny, envy, and other things.

But! Excise the sword. Excise the the 'you dress like a white' and you're left with "I dress like Wonder Woman to feel powerful' and then acknowledgement and acceptance. And this medium is one where the soundbyte is valid. The first few quotes aren't a problem; the first is directly the point, and the second is the mechanism of the point; of course it's brought up as shameful. It has to be established as something this man finds shameful in order for the acceptance to have any meaning.

[Asta Kask]

Which is revealing enough to appeal to the senses of the adolenscent male, but is not distastefully so. (For an example of something counter to this, look at what 'normal' young adult women wear for swimsuits regular clothing these days.

Which made me wonder about adolescent lesbians and Kenders. Do female gynophiles go for other things than male gynophiles?

ETA: And here's some Reb Brown beefcake for all youse who like that stuff.

http://content7.flixster.com/photo/94/06/12/9406125_ori.jpg

And here's the mascot for the thread:

http://cdn.superbwallpapers.com/wallpapers/funny/cat-riding-a-fire-breathing-unicorn-16414-400x250.jpg

[Lentrax]

Why is the unicorn setting the Mushroom Kingdom on fire?

[Asta Kask]

He's tired of Princess Peach and her "oh-come-and-rescue-me" ways.

[The Succubus]

Why is the unicorn setting the Mushroom Kingdom on fire?

Because barbequed mushrooms with a little seasoning and maybe some feta or boursin cheese are godly.

[Philemonite]

Because barbequed mushrooms with a little seasoning and maybe some feta or boursin cheese are godly.

And now I'm hungry.:smallwink:

Good thing I have fresh mushrooms waiting for me when I get home.:smalltongue:

Also, stupid elections, making me have political opinions, and I can't even express them.:smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious:

[SiuiS]

Why is the unicorn setting the Mushroom Kingdom on fire?

Well, someone has to.

[Skeppio]

It really, I think, all comes down to portrayal. If you draw a woman in a metal bikini, just to have something to stare at, then yeah, its demeaning. Like the horde of guys in MMOs who play a female avatar because "If I'm gonna watch something run around for 8 hours, it'd better have an ass I can look at."

But if its something like, for example, this version of Wonder Woman:
http://th00.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2013/118/8/4/wonder_woman_by_jeffach-d59egpa.jpg

Which is revealing enough to appeal to the senses of the adolenscent male, but is not distastefully so. (For an example of something counter to this, look at what 'normal' young adult women wear for swimsuits regular clothing these days.

I think, that if it would be something that makes sense for the character, then it would not offend the common person. The trouble is when you put it out there, that the people who think its offensive will be very vocal about it, whereas the people who just like it, won't say anything at all, beyond maybe a quick "I like this."

So, I say, just go for it, Skeppers. And to hades with what anyone else thinks about it. Its your art after all.

I'm one of those people who plays a female character, sometimes with skimpy armour, in an MMO. >.>; But I do it as a form of escapism... :/
Thanks. Maybe I'm overthinking things, and should just draw what I want.


I like this gifset, and I avoid Tumblr like the plague for my own sanity, but honestly, I have to agree with that.
(Also where fiction is concerned, characters are not actually people with their own thoughts. It's trivially easy for a creator to pretend the character feels better in a skimpy outfit but have designed the outfit for less noble reasons. In fact, I'm sure it has already been criticized in these very threads. So, am I missing something here?)

Hm, I guess... I usually have a characters personality nailed out before I've fully designed an outfit, etc. Plus you folks know I'm not an objectifying type of person....right? :smalleek:
I know I at least would feel good in skimpy clothes, if I had the body for it... >.>

[Eldest]

As regards the Wonder Woman gifset, it's apparently more problematic than it appears at first glance. (http://ami-angelwings.tumblr.com/post/74372349657/is-nobody-else-going-to-push-back-against-this-horrible)

I... honestly, I dunno if that's right. I mean, it's assuming that the man meant every word he said (which is not how I read it), and that the fact that they had the guy admit to something embarrassing and then had the heroine go "Ok, embrace that." was important because they made somebody opposing WW admit to something embarrassing.

The last bit of outing somebody publicly I do agree with.

Also yaaay beefcake.

[Asta Kask]

And speaking of Wonder Woman:

Did you know there was a TV pilot? (http://blip.tv/radio-dead-air/wonder-woman-2011-a-review-5888251)

So bad it never made it to air... that's a review, btw.

[Rawhide]

Well, Rich has just revealed the Secret Project™.

[SMEE]

Well, Rich has just revealed the Secret Project™.

Yes... no more twirling moustaches and cackling maniacally while talking about it behind the scenes like the good evil masterminds we are. :smallfrown:

[Philemonite]

I'm kinda disappointed, I was expecting world domination.:smalltongue:

Wait, what if this is all part of a bigger plot?:smallamused:

[NeroGrimm]

We should all band together and take over the world- one forum at a time!
And then we should burn everything. With fire. And lasers.

[Eldest]

Yes... no more twirling moustaches and cackling maniacally while talking about it behind the scenes like the good evil masterminds we are. :smallfrown:

Would that be good Evil masterminds, or Good evil masterminds, or Good Evil masterminds, or... @.@

[Philemonite]

We should all band together and take over the world- one forum at a time!

Why are you looking at me? There are absolutely no plans to take over the world.

Stick to the white text, the mods can't see it.
OK, you can be the minister of burning, once we take over the world.

[NeroGrimm]

Why are you looking at me? There are absolutely no plans to take over the world.


Of course not. My bad.
Mwahaha! That sounds like an excellent job. I will begin preparing by burning down gingerbread houses.

[Mono Vertigo]

I'm one of those people who plays a female character, sometimes with skimpy armour, in an MMO. >.>; But I do it as a form of escapism... :/
Thanks. Maybe I'm overthinking things, and should just draw what I want.



Hm, I guess... I usually have a characters personality nailed out before I've fully designed an outfit, etc. Plus you folks know I'm not an objectifying type of person....right? :smalleek:
I know I at least would feel good in skimpy clothes, if I had the body for it... >.>
Nah, context is not the same, plus as you're saying, your situation is not the same.
I was thinking more about, say, frequent cases of bikini armor on RPGs where the artist or player justifies themselves by saying "she feels more comfortable wearing almost nothing! Besides, it's not like she really needs to wear proper armor in the first place, she's that strong. It's not sexist. Even though I personally find it very nice to look at!".
If it weren't so damn frequent, or happened more frequently with male characters, it would sound more credible. But now, I tend to find it oddly refreshing when the (woman-loving) creator just outright admits "Yeah, she wears skimpy clothes just because I/the fans find it sexy, and I wouldn't do that with a male character because I/the fans wouldn't find it as sexy".

[SiuiS]

Man, wow. After growing up a bit and examining things, I'm actually kinda sleeved out by a lot of movies. Never Back Down sort of defines the morality of it's conflict by which of protag or antag has the favor of The Girl, who of course exists to be sexually conquered.

I'm kind of afraid to go back and watch any of the movies I glanced over pre-2008.