Alchemy and Potions: would this expansion of the skill be balanced?

[Segev]

As it stands, I've always found potions to be the worst of many worlds when it comes to magic items. They use the priciest structure for one-off spells-in-magic-items, they require their own feat to create, they're limited to level 3 spells or below, and they don't in any way behave differently than a magic pebble somebody uses Craft Wondrous Item to enchant to be a one-off spell of any level up to 3rd. (The CWI stone, however, can have ANY level spell in it, if the crafter chooses.) Heck, such a pebble could be a ruby you throw for a Fireball; a potion cannot cast a Fireball at an arbitrary foe.

There's literally no reason to pick up Brew Potion over Craft Wondrous Item, except to be less capable. (Leaving out PrC entry requirements...and I've yet to see a PrC that focuses on potions that makes them actually good as opposed to merely "less bad.")

However, potions had some interesting (albeit nigh unusable by PCs who aren't cheesing to or beyond the point of cheating) rules in 2e and earlier editions. One in particular involved what happened when you combined them. Now, I'm not about to try to replicate this table (and, if you want to, you can look it up online; I'm sure it's out there somewhere, and the mechanics of it are trivial to translate to 3e). But combining potions might provide an interesting reason to use them despite their built-in limitations.

So, I propose the following additional use of the Alchemy skill, and turn it over to my fellow Playgrounders to dissect for problems with balance (or to critique to make more useful, if it's not good enough):

Potions, unlike most beverages, cannot be divided into smaller parts. The liquid may be separated, but the potion remains a contiguous thing. This can be seen by the speed with which adventurers often quaff them: it is that first mouthful they swallow that confers the effects, and whatever remains in the bottle is nothing more than the non-magical sum of its ingredients.

Mixing Potions
A skilled Alchemist can combine multiple potions into one draught. A successfully-combined potion takes one standard action to drink, and confers the effects of every potion in the mixture to the drinker at once. Alchemists are prized for this ability by adventurers, who often wish to acquire multiple magical effects in a short period of time just before or as battle starts.

To combine potions together, the Alchemist carefully titrates one into another. The one he is titrating is called the "additive," and the one he is adding it to is called the "base potion." This takes 1 minute to do successfully, and requires an Alchemy Skill Check with a DC equal to five times the number of potions being combined. Each individual potion to be added requires a separate roll, but multiple mixed potions may be combined together in one (high DC) roll.

For example, if Morty the Magician wishes to combine a Potion of Haste with a Potion of Bull's Strength for Amandil the elven fighter, he takes one minute to carefully titrated one into the other, and makes a DC 10 Alchemy check. If he succeeds, Amandil can drink this combined potion as a standard action to gain the benefits of both.

If Morty decides he also wants to put a potion of Fly into it so that Amandil can take on a dragon in melee combat, he takes another minute to carefully titrate the potion of Fly into the already-combined potions of Bull's Strength and Haste. This requires a DC 15 Alchemy check, because there are three total potions being combined.

Later, Morty finds two sets of already-combined potions: one of Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, and Bear's Endurance, and another of Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, and Eagle's Spleandor. He decides he wants to make one big potion that buffs all six stats at once. This requires, again, one minute to titrate one of the mixed potions into the other, and requires a DC 30 (5 per potion in the total final mix) Alchemy check.

You may only take 10 on this check if you have an Alchemist's Lab. Without one, you can still perform the titrations, but you cannot take 10.

If you fail the Alchemy check, the additive is ruined. For every 5 by which your check is below the DC, one of the potions (chosen randomly) in the base potion is also ruined.

You may also attempt to separate out combined potions, if you wish. Doing so requires ten minutes and the use of an alchemist's lab. Each check removes one potion of your choice from the mix, separating it into an individual potion on its lonesome once more. The DC for this operation is ten for each potion in the mixture with which you start.

If Morty found that mixed potion of all six stat-boosting spells, and wanted to separate it into the physical potion and the mental potion, he would have to succeed on a DC 60, 50, then 40 Alchemy check to separate each of the mental potions individually, taking 30 total minutes (10 each), and THEN he would have to combine them together in a DC 10 and DC 15 check, taking one minute each.

[Omegas]

Your right Brew potion is low on the totem pole but the key to potions is that anyone can use them where as not everyone can use a staff, wand, or scroll.

your idea is sound but honestly it belongs in Homebrews.
Rather then one DC, I would have them roll for each spell they added to the concoction. Example DC = (10 + the combined spell levels in the potion )

It is enough to combine potions without an explosive reaction. Being able to separate potions pushes the limit of believability in D&D tech.

Set a max number of spells in a potion. Perhaps by saying the number of caster levels can not exceed the players caster level. So if a 12 lvl caster made a bull/cats grace potion they could have 4/8 caster levels divided.

As these spells are rather low cost to the caster i would make a failed check result a ruined potion. Exception = failed concoction potion dont result in EXP loss if failed.

Why a minute? Honestly there is no reason to reduce the crafting time. It has to be done outside of combat and noncombat time is moot as the DM simply states x number of days pass.
The problem is the barbarian with the uber potion. Without a limit what is to prevent your caster from crafting super potions that buff all stats, AtK, saves, AC, and Skills at once? Most any DC can be overcome.

Your idea is good you just need a limit to prevent it from becoming over powered. I could see potions being useful at higher levels if they had more effects.

[Segev]

Thanks for the reply!

Your right Brew potion is low on the totem pole but the key to potions is that anyone can use them where as not everyone can use a staff, wand, or scroll. It's worse than that; I can replicate every potion in the game with Craft Wondrous Item, and have it cost exactly the same amount and be just as useful. But I can have the Wondrous Item (call it a "magic pebble") be a one-off of any spell in the game, up to level 9. And it isn't limited to single-target magics, and can be used offensively without being a self-buff first. Potions literally are not needed.


your idea is sound but honestly it belongs in Homebrews. Ah, that might explain the long time before there was a reply. I might remake it over there. Thanks!



Rather then one DC, I would have them roll for each spell they added to the concoction. Example DC = (10 + the combined spell levels in the potion )The idea here is that they roll each time they add another potion to the mix. And the DC goes up each time. So they start by mixing two potions to make one mixed potion, at DC 10. Then they add a third, rolling against DC 15. A fourth would mean a fourth roll and DC 20. Etc.

It is enough to combine potions without an explosive reaction. Being able to separate potions pushes the limit of believability in D&D tech.You could be right. I just thought it was cool and in line with an alchemist's abilities if he had the tools.


Set a max number of spells in a potion. Perhaps by saying the number of caster levels can not exceed the players caster level. So if a 12 lvl caster made a bull/cats grace potion they could have 4/8 caster levels divided.I was going to ask why, but I think I see why in later parts of this. I'll get back to this.


As these spells are rather low cost to the caster i would make a failed check result a ruined potion. Exception = failed concoction potion dont result in EXP loss if failed.

Why a minute? Honestly there is no reason to reduce the crafting time. It has to be done outside of combat and noncombat time is moot as the DM simply states x number of days pass.
The problem is the barbarian with the uber potion. Without a limit what is to prevent your caster from crafting super potions that buff all stats, AtK, saves, AC, and Skills at once? Most any DC can be overcome.
Okay, these two tell me that you're reading my proposal as if it were about brewing one potion at the cost of one potion or something like that.

That's not what I was going for.

This doesn't require you to be brewing the potion at all. It requires you to already have the potions in question in hand. Brew Potion has to be used to individually make each of them before this process is even attempted.

(Note that the alchemist need not be the one who brewed them; he could be taking potions he and his party found on an adventure and combining them.)

So he has to make or acquire them individually, and THEN make the mixture checks. Effectively, each of these potions has already been "paid for" by whatever means potions get paid for, whether found, stolen, bought, or brewed.

There is nothing, save the high DC, to stop "the uberpotion" from being mixed together, no. That's kind-of the idea; a high-enough level group of adventurers aren't going to see a whole lot of use for the relatively expensive potions that only give up to 3rd level buffs if there isn't a big advantage to them over the usual "get buffs that last all day" routine. And it's relatively high-level adventurers who'll be mixing "uberpotions," since they're the only ones who can afford that many potions.


Your idea is good you just need a limit to prevent it from becoming over powered. I could see potions being useful at higher levels if they had more effects.Thanks! You could still be right: it might be overpowered. I'd like a little more examination of how, though, beyond "it sounds like it might." Not that I don't appreciate the evaluation; I just think it bears a little more scrutiny so that the way to adjust it is clearer.

[Segev]

Created a thread for this in Homebrew.