Simple, tier 1-3, pure melee build?

[kroonermanblack]

I was wondering, can anyone recommend a handbook for a melee oriented (so not ranged casting or throwing or archery etc.) build?

We started a campaign today where I was playing a pretty typical bruiser (half orc fighter, two handed weapon), and I usually enjoy that role.

And since we started at level 1, I was a bit more effective than our pure casters. But I'm expecting to die off at some point, and might try to go for a similar route with more shelf life past level 4-6. I don't really care if it's dex/stren/int/whatever based, as long as it's primarily concerned with a semi-tank front line role (I know, 3.5 doesn't allow 'tanks'). Maybe melee meatshield?

We didn't quite break level 2 (only a total of 800 exp or so) due to massive party size and lots of new players (me, me!).

I had an absolute blast, and I'm glad someone recommended I develop a good character backdrop, gave me a good idea of what he would/wouldn't do.

[Tevesh]

You're looking at Warblades, Factotum or Swordsages.

Tier List:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=bc18425e5fa73d30e4a9a54889edf4 4e&topic=1002.0

[kroonermanblack]

Oh, for some reason I didn't think those were really front line units, I've got a notion that all 'not tier trash' characters have to be casters.

Thanks!

[Firechanter]

Pure melee can never be Tier 1-2, by definition, because those Tiers mean you can do anything :)
However, go for Crusader or Warblade and you'll be fine. ^^
Crusader is actually the closest thing to a Tank you can build in 3.5. And it's also very easy to build. And really effective. You get tools that leave your enemies with no good options. Try it, you'll love it.

[ryu]

Oh, for some reason I didn't think those were really front line units, I've got a notion that all 'not tier trash' characters have to be casters.

Thanks!

Most of them are kinda pseudo-casters. The initiators use maneuvers which heavily blur the line between mundane and magic. Some the stuff you see in the maneuver list is basically pretty reasonably believable, and possible in a magic free environment. Some of it really isn't. Looking at you iron heart surge...

[Gavinfoxx]

A Mystic can be a good, solid, meleeist...

I made a Tier 2 Melee character once:
http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=202212
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=427641

[Just to Browse]

A good T3 melee build could use spontaneous cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) or the Favored Soul from Complete Divine. They play like sorcerers (you have a spells known list that you select from the cleric spell list). If you stick to melee spells and throw some utility on the side, you'll feel like a solid Tier 3 character, and it's a pretty simple character to play!

If you went core spells, you could pick up some from the following (warning, some of these are from domains. I've forgotten stuff):
1st:
[Melee] Enlarge Person, Shield of Faith, Protection from [X], Divine Favor, Magic Weapon, Entropic Shield
Comprehend Languages, Remove Fear, Sanctuary, Endure Elements

[u]2nd:
[Melee] Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Align Weapon, Resist Energy
Calm Emotions, Augury, Find Traps, Darkness, Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Lesser Restoration, Shield Other, Silence, Status, Undetectable Alignment

[u]3rd:
[Melee] Magic Vestment, Protection from Energy, Water Walk, Fly, Wind Wall
[Utility] Daylight, Invisibility Purge, Locate Object, Magic Circle against [X], Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove curse, Remove Disease, Water Breathing, Stone Shape, Speak with Dead

With these, you're basically a better paladin than the paladin. You can sandbag a little and dip 1-2 levels in fighter for those early bonus feats and the ability to wear whatever armor you want.

If you want a significant power-up, you can go spontaneous cleric with a focus on Charisma, and then pick up Divine Metamagic + Quicken/Persist Spell and be the master of melee. Bonus point at level 7 when you get divine power and basically outperform the fighter at everything.

[limejuicepowder]

Some the stuff you see in the maneuver list is basically pretty reasonably believable, and possible in a magic free environment. Some of it really isn't. Looking at you iron heart surge...

I'd argue that almost everything is perfectly reasonable for mundanes in a high fantasy setting, setting aside maybe 1/3 of the maneuvers from shadow hand and desert wind.

Iron heart surge? How common is it for the gritty and determined warrior to break free of curses/enchantments/obstructions with a gnash of his teeth and an animal roar?

Even the healing strikes from devoted spirit could easily be mundane. Getting a second wind, or again, a surge of determination. When it's used on others, it's a reassuring order or word that calms an ally, instilling in them renewed hope.

The only overtly magical schools are the above mentioned, and only when they do obvious stuff like generate flame or teleport.

[Gavinfoxx]

A good T3 melee build could use spontaneous cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) or the Favored Soul from Complete Divine

I still think that Spontaneous Cleric, Favored Soul, and Mystic are Tier 2. Aren't they the definition of T2?

[OldTrees1]

Goal: Tier 3

Half Minotaur(LA Buy Off) Raptorian Barbarian(Spirit Lion Totem, Favored Enemy, Archery Combat Style, Wolf Totem) 2 / Fighter(Exoticist, Zhentarim Soldier) 2 / Swordsage 1 / Fighter +2 / Rogue 1 / Warblade 1 / Scarlet Corsair 5 / Horizon Walker 1 /Fighter +5

In combat: Charger, Battlefield Control & Mass Debuffer
Flying Charge into melee with a Dire Flail.

As a swift action use Demoralize to make everyone within 30ft cowering (if vulnerable to fear & vulnerable to mind effecting effects) vulnerable to fear cowering within 30ft. (Targeting only 1 foe removes the mind effecting component)

Attack up to 7 foes within 10ft with: Hit with one head, Trip and then Hit with the other head, Knockback if your primary head hit, Save vs Daze if both heads hit.

Every 2d4 rounds you can feint as a free action. This lets you sneak attack that foe during your full attack. This renders them Staggered until healed.

Anyone foolish enough to provoke an AoO from you (by attacking you or moving through your zone of control) will suffer a Hit-Trip-Hit combo before their attack/movement. Standstill is available as an alternative to the AoO if needed.

Out of combat: Bad Cop & Mobility
Intimidate +YES
Bluff +Yes
Flight

[Firechanter]

So that monstrosity counts as "Simple" in your book?

[kroonermanblack]

Goal: Tier 3

Half Minotaur(LA Buy Off) Raptorian Barbarian(Spirit Lion Totem, Favored Enemy, Archery Combat Style, Wolf Totem) 2 / Fighter(Exoticist, Zhentarim Soldier) 2 / Swordsage 1 / Fighter +2 / Rogue 1 / Warblade 1 / Scarlet Corsair 5 / Horizon Walker 1 /Fighter +5

In combat: Charger, Battlefield Control & Mass Debuffer
Flying Charge into melee with a Dire Flail.

As a swift action use Demoralize to make everyone within 30ft cowering (if vulnerable to fear & vulnerable to mind effecting effects) vulnerable to fear cowering within 30ft. (Targeting only 1 foe removes the mind effecting component)

Attack up to 7 foes within 10ft with: Hit with one head, Trip and then Hit with the other head, Knockback if your primary head hit, Save vs Daze if both heads hit.

Every 2d4 rounds you can feint as a free action. This lets you sneak attack that foe during your full attack. This renders them Staggered until healed.

Anyone foolish enough to provoke an AoO from you (by attacking you or moving through your zone of control) will suffer a Hit-Trip-Hit combo before their attack/movement. Standstill is available as an alternative to the AoO if needed.

Out of combat: Bad Cop & Mobility
Intimidate +YES
Bluff +Yes
Flight

Haha, there is absolutely no way I could get my DM to let that fly. Like, any part of it. At all. But it's awesome.

[eggynack]

Iron heart surge? How common is it for the gritty and determined warrior to break free of curses/enchantments/obstructions with a gnash of his teeth and an animal roar?
I think the problem with IHS as non-magic is that it also explodes the spell for non-warblades, and then also the sun for good measure. In other words, it's non-magic when it's used in a not-silly manner.

[OldTrees1]

Haha, there is absolutely no way I could get my DM to let that fly. Like, any part of it. At all. But it's awesome.

You would probably be surprised.

The only OP component used is Half Minotaur which I use in a nerfed version (no size modifiers to stats). The other components are easily welcomed by DMs. The entire package looks complex and overbearing but the components are simple (Ex feat chains: Improved Trip + Knock-down , Power Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Knockback, Weapon Focus + Power Attack + Improved Sunder + Two Weapon Fighting + Dire Flail Smash).


A toned down version would be Raptorian/Dragonborn(wings) + Scarlet Corsair(Ftr/Rog Prestige Class) + Knock-down(feat chain) + Imperious Command(feat) + Combat Reflexes(feat) + Reach(reach weapon).

[Bloodgruve]

You can play Cleric and Druid as front line fighters. Druid turns on with Wild Shape or Shape Shift and Cleric turns on with Divine Metamagic/Persist Spell and Divine Power.

You'll get t1 casting for options but you can fight in the front lines just as well as anyone and do some really good damage with all the buffs you can give yourself.

I run a Shapeshift druid and its very fun. At lvl 13 I have the highest HP and AC of the group and can be very effective in combat.

Otherwise the Tome of Battle classes are great as suggested.

GL
Blood~

[Gemini476]

I think the problem with IHS as non-magic is that it also explodes the spell for non-warblades, and then also the sun for good measure. In other words, it's non-magic when it's used in a not-silly manner.

It's just dysfunctional in general, to be honest. Kind of like Evasion and Improved Evasion: If a nuclear bomb explodes next to the Rogue, he will be noticeably less vaporized than everyone else (he might even be unharmed!)
Pre-3E Evasion also had issues, since it had the Rogue move out to the end of the AoE. That meant that you could have multiple mages fire Fireballs at him and he'd move across the battlefield faster than he could run, all the while explicitly avoiding the explosion. Or so I've been told, at least.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd argue that almost everything is perfectly reasonable for mundanes in a high fantasy setting, setting aside maybe 1/3 of the maneuvers from shadow hand and desert wind.

Iron heart surge? How common is it for the gritty and determined warrior to break free of curses/enchantments/obstructions with a gnash of his teeth and an animal roar?

Even the healing strikes from devoted spirit could easily be mundane. Getting a second wind, or again, a surge of determination. When it's used on others, it's a reassuring order or word that calms an ally, instilling in them renewed hope.

The only overtly magical schools are the above mentioned, and only when they do obvious stuff like generate flame or teleport.
Let's not rehash that old argument again.

Anyway, +1 to Crusader or Warblade. Anything else that wants to hang with casters is either going to be a caster itself (melee cleric builds, psychic warrior, abjurant champion gish, etc) or fail at being simple (wildshape ranger, builds like OldTrees1's)

[OldTrees1]

Anyway, +1 to Crusader or Warblade. Anything else that wants to hang with casters is either going to be a caster itself (melee cleric builds, psychic warrior, abjurant champion gish, etc) or fail at being simple (wildshape ranger, builds like OldTrees1's)

^It's a fair cop.

Crusaders and Warblades are indeed a good default. They do Tier 3 martial combat well.

However I am glad that there exist non-caster/non-maneuver builds that reach Tier 3.

[12owlbears]

In other words, it's non-magic when it's used in a not-silly manner.

Which is how its supposed to be used.

[eggynack]

Which is how its supposed to be used.
Not necessarily. You have a warblade standing in a web, and the warblade uses IHS, and the web goes away. It is apparently a completely intended purpose, and it is also a pretty magic seeming one. Maybe you could think of that as some physical object that you're tearing off of yourself, but if there's any spell that affects multiple folks, IHS removes it from all of them. It's a somewhat odd thing.

[12owlbears]

Not necessarily. You have a warblade standing in a web, and the warblade uses IHS, and the web goes away. It is apparently a completely intended purpose, and it is also a pretty magic seeming one. Maybe you could think of that as some physical object that you're tearing off of yourself, but if there's any spell that affects multiple folks, IHS removes it from all of them. It's a somewhat odd thing.

Really? I haven't read the exact wording for IHS but I was always under the impression that it only effected the surger not any one else.

[OldTrees1]

Not necessarily. You have a warblade standing in a web, and the warblade uses IHS, and the web goes away. It is apparently a completely intended purpose, and it is also a pretty magic seeming one. Maybe you could think of that as some physical object that you're tearing off of yourself, but if there's any spell that affects multiple folks, IHS removes it from all of them. It's a somewhat odd thing.

Web requires being attached to anchor points for it to be effective. Tearing the web loose from the anchor points would end the effect.

As long as it follows the flavor text

By drawing on your mental strength and physical fortitude, you break free of a debilitating state that might otherwise defeat you.
it remains non magical.

[eggynack]

Really? I haven't read the exact wording for IHS but I was always under the impression that it only effected the surger not any one else.
It ends the effect, which in this case refers to the spell, effect, or condition.

Web requires being attached to anchor points for it to be effective. Tearing the web loose from the anchor points would end the effect.

As long as it follows the flavor text

it remains non magical.
I guess, but that's just one case. There're other things that don't necessarily have such clear non-mundane solutions. Say, something like solid fog. No tearing loose involved.

[OldTrees1]

It ends the effect, which in this case refers to the spell, effect, or condition.

I guess, but that's just one case. There're other things that don't necessarily have such clear non-mundane solutions. Say, something like solid fog. No tearing loose involved.

Disperse the fog with your strong & quick arms.

Sure there might be some example that cannot be overcome by extraordinary physical or mental action. In those rare cases, say no.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Really? I haven't read the exact wording for IHS but I was always under the impression that it only effected the surger not any one else.
That's probably what it meant to say, but as written it ends the effect in general. Hence the jokes about IHSing away gravity, or the sun. (Or if you want to get really dumb, IHS the Strong Force that makes atomic nuclei stick together. Suddenly the universe ends as all matter disintegrates into hydrogen ions.)

[eggynack]

Sure there might be some example that cannot be overcome by extraordinary physical or mental action. In those rare cases, say no.
But that's not what happens in the rules. If you have to say no to such an intended effect, then my point obviously stands.

[OldTrees1]

But that's not what happens. If you have to say no to such an intended effect, then my point obviously stands.

So your point was when RAW breaks from RAI then the non-magical fluff also breaks?

Uh, duh?

I said that as long as IHS is held to its fluff, then it remains non-magical (and then used Web and Solid Fog as examples of non-magical IHS).

None of the intended effects breaks from the non-magical fluff since the non-magical fluff informs us about what was RAI vs what was RAW.

[eggynack]

So your point was when RAW breaks from RAI then the non-magical fluff also breaks?

Uh, duh?

I said that as long as IHS is held to its fluff, then it remains non-magical (and then used Web and Solid Fog as examples of non-magical IHS).

None of the intended effects breaks from the non-magical fluff since the non-magical fluff informs us about what was RAI vs what was RAW.
No, my point was that there are several RAW uses of the maneuver, that seem to be perfectly intended, that also seem magical in nature. If you're going to define RAI as "matches fluff," and define this fluff as being non-magical, and thus define non-magical as the RAI, well go ahead, but it looks a lot like circular logic to me.

[OldTrees1]

No, my point was that there are several RAW uses of the maneuver, that seem to be perfectly intended, that also seem magical in nature. If you're going to define RAI as "matches fluff," and define this fluff as being non-magical, and thus define non-magical as the RAI, well go ahead, but it looks a lot like circular logic to me.

Explanation:
I read the fluff. It does in fact describe non-magical effort.
Then I applied the fluff as context for the rules in order to determine RAI from RAW.
So it is rather linear logic.

However if you are going to try to derive RAI from the poorly worded RAW then I do not know what to say. It seems like you are begging the question by claiming RAI includes things that clash with the fluff and then concluding that it clashes with the fluff.

[eggynack]

Explanation:
I read the fluff. It does in fact describe non-magical effort.
Then I applied the fluff as context for the rules in order to determine RAI from RAW.
So it is rather linear logic.

However if you are going to try to derive RAI from the poorly worded RAW then I do not know what to say. It seems like you are begging the question by claiming RAI includes things that clash with the fluff and then concluding that it clashes with the fluff.
My line of not-RAI is somewhere in sun exploding territory. Y'know, stuff that constitutes conditions that they didn't consider when they used the term. As long as you're ending an effect, and that effect is a spell, it seems clear cut enough to be RAI. That part of the maneuver isn't so poorly worded that the designers could be assumed to not have known what they were doing. You're trying to prove that the RAI matches the fluff, but your definition of RAI is stuff that's represented in the fluff. It's a tautology, and is thus somewhat meaningless.

[OldTrees1]

My line of not-RAI is somewhere in sun exploding territory. Y'know, stuff that constitutes conditions that they didn't consider when they used the term. As long as you're ending an effect, and that effect is a spell, it seems clear cut enough to be RAI. That part of the maneuver isn't so poorly worded that the designers could be assumed to not have known what they were doing. You're trying to prove that the RAI matches the fluff, but your definition of RAI is stuff that's represented in the fluff. It's a tautology, and is thus somewhat meaningless.

Excluding conditions they did not think of but not excluding spells they did not think of (which you have yet to give a good example of despite our joint assumption that a good example probably exists) seems equally absurd.

To each their own.

[Kennisiou]

Pure melee can never be Tier 1-2, by definition, because those Tiers mean you can do anything :)


Kinda true?

Okay, so this is really not a "pure melee" build in any sense but that the only efficient means you have of damaging enemies is via melee attacking (unless you cheese it up and grab cryohydra), but Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper is a solid T2 class whose only strong solution to combat is usually: turn into something that's better at melee than most uberchargers, proceed to melee. They occasionally have access to forms with buffing/debuffing/battlefield control potential, a few forms have breath weapons that aren't awful (although usually they pale in comparison to just going full on huge melee monster still, honestly), and there's a few other tricks you can get in there for combat that aren't just getting close to things and hit them. The thing that makes the build T2 is basically just the MoMF part: there should be very few non-combat situations that you don't have a form to solve, or at least heavily contribute to solving, and occasionally you have access to a form that can situationally break the game. Solid T2 territory, and the closest you usually get to a T2 "pure melee" character.

[eggynack]

Excluding conditions they did not think of but not excluding spells they did not think of (which you have yet to give a good example of despite our joint assumption that a good example probably exists) seems equally absurd.

To each their own.
The problem is mostly that it'd make for a somewhat lengthy search, especially when you consider the fact that there's some core disagreement for what spell's destruction would constitute the effect being magical, combined with the fact that there are enough spells that at least a few will inevitably turn out to require some sort of magic. Finding something reasonable is within the realm of plausibility, but it seems like setting that part aside is a decent idea.

As for excluding conditions and not spells, conditions are ill defined in the text, to the extent that they likely intended the list of defined status conditions, while spells are incredibly well defined, and the list is a known object. I can simultaneously say that they likely didn't expect people to define "being in the sunlight" as a condition, and that they likely did expect people to define crushing despair as a spell. It doesn't seem absurd to me that they intended this to work on any spell that affects you.

[OldTrees1]

@eggynack
Your position is reasonable and if held, there might exist a spell which would would require IHS to be magical.

However if fluff is added as additional evidence to the intent of the authors, I think such a spell would be excluded from RAI.

Since such a spell would be a rare occurrence (assuming neither of us falls for the Guy at the Gym fallacy), I would see IHS as being usually/always non-magical depending on which boundary of RAI was used.

[eggynack]

I don't think I really agree with this definition of RAI, but still, I suppose the mundane-ness of IHS holds in enough situations that it can just be labeled as reasonably mundane. Probably not infinitely mundane, but also probably not magical enough to justify shunting the warblade from the mundane fellows club.

[SinsI]

Try Druid/Warshaper.

[eggynack]

Try Druid/Warshaper.
I'm not really the biggest fan of warshaper on a druid. Most of the stuff that warshaper does seems like a waste of time when you could be doing druid things. MoMF makes for a significantly stronger character, just as straight druid likely does, even in melee terms. Warshaper is a good class, and it seems workable in general, but it's not that great here.

[Just to Browse]

I still think that Spontaneous Cleric, Favored Soul, and Mystic are Tier 2. Aren't they the definition of T2?

Indeed, but for melee character to feel tier 2 you need some serious splatbook-searching, and I was thinking "simple" as in "core only". Level 3 core melee buffs are just... kind of crappy. Fly and wind wall aren't very useful, and magic vestment isn't worth the action cost unless it's persisted or quickened (which means using divine metamagic).

If you choose Favored Soul, then you're at least using the spells/feats in Complete Divine and will be at least noticeably stronger. If you choose Mystic, then you're probably comfortable with complex character-building.

[Firechanter]

Holy crap, my watch must be running slow. Is it Surgeday again already?

[SinsI]

I'm not really the biggest fan of warshaper on a druid. Most of the stuff that warshaper does seems like a waste of time when you could be doing druid things. MoMF makes for a significantly stronger character, just as straight druid likely does, even in melee terms. Warshaper is a good class, and it seems workable in general, but it's not that great here.

6 natural attacks (bite, claw, tentacle, gore, sting, slam) one size larger than your form, immunity to stun and to critical hits, +4 Str and +4 Con, fast healing 2, +5 reach on a melee character is absolutely great. Sure, you lose spellcasting levels - but OP is asking for a melee build. Even better if you take a couple levels of Totemist to get 4 extra claws from Girrallon Arms.

[eggynack]

10 natural attacks one size larger than your form, immunity to stun and to critical hits, +4 Str and +4 Con, fast healing 2, +5 reach on a melee character is absolutely great. Sure, you lose spellcasting levels - but OP is asking for a melee build. Even better if you take a couple levels of Totemist to get 4 extra claws from Girrallon Arms.
It's a nice thing in a vacuum, but it pushes you really far away from what you should be doing, and those things you listed are some very fancy numbers, but that's pretty much all they are. I could see using a different base, because warshaper can be strong, but it just doesn't make that much sense when applied to a druid. Like, why not just build it as a totemist, instead of entering from druid? That seems like it'd be a much more focused build.

[SinsI]

Because totemist is tier 3 or tier 4. Only by putting in druid you get the versality and pure power of a tier 1-2 class.

[eggynack]

Because totemist is tier 3 or tier 4. Only by putting in druid you get the versality and pure power of a tier 1-2 class.
Perhaps, but totemist into warshaper would likely make you better at melee, even after considering the fancy buffs that druids are party to. At some point, you have to ask what you're trying to do here, whether it's getting the most effective melee beatstick possible that fits within these tiers, or getting a versatile and powerful class within this tier range that can melee folks to death. I don't think that either situation calls for a druid into warshaper build.

[SinsI]

The problem is, totemist doesn't qualify you for warshaper, so you have to choose a lousy race like dopplegangers or changlings, or find some other way to be in and alternative form all the day. Shapeshifter druids can switch back and forth at will...

[Artillery]

Pure melee can never be Tier 1-2, by definition, because those Tiers mean you can do anything :)
However, go for Crusader or Warblade and you'll be fine. ^^
Crusader is actually the closest thing to a Tank you can build in 3.5. And it's also very easy to build. And really effective. You get tools that leave your enemies with no good options. Try it, you'll love it.

Crusader is a great tank. It is one of the few classes that benefits significantly from DR because it also works on the delayed damage pool. Unseelie Fey Crusader is very nice. Getting to double dip Damage Reduction is nice, because it also makes make damage from energy reduced by dr.

[eggynack]

The problem is, totemist doesn't qualify you for warshaper, so you have to choose a lousy race like dopplegangers or changlings. Although Shifters might not be too bad...
Well, sure, but race isn't as big of a thing as class, so as long as your race isn't actively harming you, it's not the biggest problem. Warshaper on a druid just feels like such a waste, even more than putting MoMF on a druid. At least the latter gets you some real variety.

[Kennisiou]

Well, sure, but race isn't as big of a thing as class, so as long as your race isn't actively harming you, it's not the biggest problem. Warshaper on a druid just feels like such a waste, even more than putting MoMF on a druid. At least the latter gets you some real variety.

^This.

I've played Druids that went MoMF and while I felt a versatility drop compared to other druids they still worked. Druid > MoMF > Warshaper, though? Definitely not something I wanted to do ever. Basically trading out the versatility of druid spells for being better at melee.. something that's already accomplished by having those druid spells. Without the MoMF? I see even less reason, because at least if you go Druid > MoMF > Warshaper you're kind of focusing on improving the MoMF side, but without MoMF there just doesn't seem like much of a point.

Wildshape Ranger > MoMF > Warshaper is a lot more satisfying to play and in my opinion slightly stronger than the druid version (more HP, more skill points, 2 more BaB, and Endurance as a bonus feat to free up more feat options to take things like Vermin Shape or whatever so you can get even more wildshape versatility -- while it may not look like much in comparison to Druid spells, remember you lack a lot of the powerful higher level spells by going MoMF and also that by going MoMF you're kind of looking at non-spell solutions to problems in general. The additional skill points, feat, and BaB all give you more mundane solutions to your problems).

[eggynack]

Wildshape Ranger > MoMF > Warshaper is a lot more satisfying to play and in my opinion slightly stronger than the druid version
I disagree with the part where it's stronger. Just tallying up long term buffs and utility spells of 3rd level or less grants an edge over what ranger provides. Think stuff like luminous armor, heart of water, primal instinct, wood wose, and so on and so forth. You're superior even without natural spell allowing you to toss stuff out in combat (presumably stuff with less than a standard action casting time), and you're doing a lot better with it. I'm not sure if that's worth the feat cost, but the non-natural spell stuff is enough. Also, the superior animal companion is kinda nice for a few levels.

Ranger into MoMF definitely feels better, because there's an upswing in tier instead of a downswing, but just something like picking up a lesser rod of extend spell and using it on snowsight and obscuring snow is a massive power boost. Spells, even low level spells, are crazy in other words. A mystic wild shape ranger might be able to compete, but even then the druid might come out ahead by virtue of 3rd level druid spells.

Edit: Natural spell style spells include stuff like alter fortune (PHB II, 101), instant of power (FoW, 114), and vision of punishment (CV, 59). It's neat.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

@IHS

I've never heard a single spell cited as making IHS silly that I wasn't ok with it breaking. Even something like a mass mind effecting, the warrior shouts "BY CROM" and everyone is shaken out of it and his cry rallies his allies or his breaking out is so hard it it sends a backlash at the caster that breaks the spell. Dispelling gravity, the sun, etc is the only part that's silly and that requires applying game rules and terms to things that normally aren't expressed as such.

If Pathfinder material is allowed Synthesist Summoner is high tier melee. Summoner is debated between 2 and 3, being a Synthesist and focusing on melee should drop it to a clear and solid 3.