Rogue helping the paladin be stealthy.

[Tegu8788]

So, in my game I have a Psion, Bard, and Barbarian, none of which have a a shred of stealthing skill.

I also have a Rogue and dex-Ranger, each of which has phenomenal stealth.

My sneakers joined late, and now the party wants to sneak into as many situations as they can.

Tactics, I'm good with this. It will really help them survive, given their lack of defender, and the fact that everyone acts like a striker, except the bard the just SNotes and heals. So I'm good with them being sneaky.


The problem is, my players all roll, and at least one always botches it. I hate watching a nat 20 negated when the barbarian gets a total of 4.



I played a few rounds of Next, and I saw it included letting the Rogue make a check to not only sneak through undetected, but to also clear things out of the way, making it easier for the rest of the party. My thought is to bump up the DC, but I'm not sure by how much. 4, 5, 8?


I know I could have them use Aid Another, but the challenge isn't great enough, nor is the reward useful enough. Is there some gradation scale beyond half-level+10 for +2?

[Kimera757]

You could use a group skill check instead. The group has to make Stealth checks against an easy DC. (The paladin will probably fail, of course.) If at least half the group makes their checks, the whole group succeeds.

The rogue may be able to effectively Stealth independently from the other PCs if it keeps at least 10 squares away as well.

[masteraleph]

I'd go with Kimera's solution. The Paladin may or may not make the check (it's an easy check, so there's always a chance), but even if they don't, you just have to get the rest of the party to make it. Generally a preferable form when you're not trying to help someone in particular shine. At other times, if the Rogue wants to sneak in and sneak out again with information- that's when you should be having the Rogue make amazing feats of stealthyness.

[Gavran]

Yep. It's RAW and everything, specifically with stealth as an example. Fluffwise I like to think of it as the more skilled folks helping to cover for the others with minor distractions or stealthy-pathfinding.

[Tegu8788]

The Rogue and Ranger have had great success sneaking ahead on their own, getting info on bad guys positions and numbers. That's not my concern.

But when half the party fails even an easy check, that makes it tough. A pair of brothers are playing practical ninjas, while the others...

Barbarian: 0
Bard: 4
Psion: 0
Ranger: 13
Rogue: 12

These guys don't roll that well, barring the barbarian when it comes to athletics, he crits like mad.

Gavran, can you find me a source on that? I'd not in the compendium, but if that's the case, then that solves my issue. My sneaky guys specifically asked if there was a way could help the party sneak in and get a surprise round.

Backstory, they are hunting some local bandits. They managed to get right up to the edge of the camp, and using a mid-game call ruling got the rest of the party pretty close, when the Bard ghost sounded a Xena war cry from the middle of the bandit camp. Things went south from there...

[Gavran]

RC 128 talks about it, but there's nothing there that hasn't been said here.

Half the party has to succeed, easy DC.

[kailkay]

You could always encourage them to split the party... :smallyuk:

[Kurald Galain]

Here's an idea: the bard could help the paladin be stealthy, by singing at him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0217.html)!

Yes, this works. There's a ritual called Traveler's Camouflage which gives the party a stealth bonus while traveling, and bards can perform rituals by singing them. Ta dah!

[Epinephrine]

Items go a long way, as does training stealth. The party I DM for went from having 2 sneaks to all being sneaky, in no small part due to items. Assassin's Cloak and a +item bonus to stealth is a big change.

If they can all spare a feat, the Guild feat Silent Shadows is amazing (actually, even just the three weak stealth need to).
It grants a +2 feat bonus to Stealth checks, and you can reroll any result you don't like, rerolling +1 bonus for each ally with the feat within 5 of you, using the best result. If the three weak stealth characters spare a feat, they would roll twice, taking the better result of a roll at +2 and a roll at +4. Add an item bonus to stealth and train the skill and you're a ninja, even with no Dex bonus.

[Tegu8788]

I will look into items, level 3 so they don't have that many yet. And that ritual will be great, I have three ritual guys, so that's a perfect thing for them to acquire. And as they're about to storm a magic school drop out fortress, easy for them to find.

[masteraleph]

I will look into items, level 3 so they don't have that many yet. And that ritual will be great, I have three ritual guys, so that's a perfect thing for them to acquire. And as they're about to storm a magic school drop out fortress, easy for them to find.

As noted, RC 128. And the online Compendium does have it, but you have to know to look for Group Checks.

At level 3, Easy difficulty is a 9. The odds of rolling 3 rolls under a 9 are quite low- a group stealth check should be a pass for you (rolling against the Easy DC) in upwards of 90% of occurrences, and the Bard only needs a 5 to pass, so he would have an 80% chance on his own.

I'd note, though, that I wouldn't give them a surprise round for it. Or if you wanted to, I'd make it part of a skill challenge- maybe they sneak past some guards, but they also need to use nature to find an ideal hidden path, and diplomacy/bluff to talk their way past anyone who might see them while sneaking around or to find out where the hidden entrances are, dungeoneering for an idea of where to find the stuff, arcana/perception to avoid setting off alarms, etc. Surprise rounds should be unusual because they're relatively unbalancing, especially if they happen frequently.

[Gavran]

Definitely agree. I think Group Check stealth should be more of a plot thing than an encounter thing, if that makes sense. Say you've successfully infiltrated the enemy forces and now you need to sneak out of their camp at night with the prisoners - Group Stealth. If you just want to set up an ambush, you'd better get some stealth investment or have the less subtle guys further back. Effectively they waste their "surprise round" getting into favorable position. Except without actually giving it to them, because ranges vs general encounter map sizes.

Actually, I thought of a better way to put it: Group Check Stealth is for Stealth in the abstract, much like when a single PC is sneaking around to avoid notice. It's an entirely different beast from Combat Stealth where one needs concealment and all that other business.

[Yakk]

A skill challenge (to get into an ambush situation of some foes) is appropriate.

A group check could be appropraite.

A more simlationist case would be the sneaky people find a safe path, and grant circumstance bonuses to the noisy folk. Naturally finding a safe path for the clumsy oafs is harder than just taking a safe path yourself.