The Elan economy problem (comments please)

[Halafax]

My regular group has played the boxed game a few times now, and we like the game a lot. Our trouble is that playing Elan has been mostly disappointing. The role is, mind you, not just under-powered, but actually frustrating and un-fun to play (for us). Our experience runs something like this:
- His combat shticks are low power or don't cause wounds.
- This results in fewer monster cards to "trade in" for shticks.
- To get shticks, he trades in his loot.
- Doing so take the "dual-use Elan drool loot" out of the game economy.
- An absence of Elan loot makes bard song less functional.
- Elan can't advance shticks for lack of loot or monster trade-ins.
It's a destructive cycle. Not having shticks means that he has a harder time in deeper levels, yet he has to stay with the group or risk not getting any loot at all (since most of his comes from assisting others).
Anyhoo, the purpose of this email is to get some feedback to our "duct tape" solution. Elan gets a new "red border shtick" called "I'm helping!". "Flip this shtick to gain a new shtick after assisting with a successful battle." It's not perfect, but I think it has relative balance. My concern is that Bard Song is already Elan's premier ability- I'm not sure that making it even more powerful is the wisest fix. My considerations to date:
- Unflipping the shtick requires resting or a special effect. Resting prevents Elan from assisting for a turn, temporarily cutting him off from bard song freebies.
- Because the effect requires a successful battle, other players might be more inclined to throw "screw this" cards at whoever Elan is assisting.
- Belkar. Attempting to abuse the card by resting every other turn is likely to attract a certain halfling with psychotic tendencies.
- It allows Elan an advancement path that doesn't screw up the game economy.
Please to let me know what you think. As always, sugar coating the truth is appreciated.

[apegamer]

Tap? Did you say Tap?! I'm thinking the Wizards attorneys looking up my phone number right now!

Your suggestion sounds intereting. My thought is that people will give Elan loot to help less often, since having him assist means he gains a shtick if the battle is successful. I'd be interested to hear how real live games using this rule worked, though.

[Zink]

I don't think that it would work that well. It would turn Elan into the equivalent of Munchkin's elf: Attractive to ask for help, because you earn more for your buck, but the helper gets much stronger if you do. My experience with elves in Munchkin is that they don't get to help a lot, and if Elan wouldn't even be asked to help a lot of times, he would be much weaker.
Sure, this card requires unflipping, but rest isn't that awkard for Elan, as he has several magic Shticks and some more that flip. But the problem is that players will usualyl not ask you for help anyway when the card is unflipped - unless they're your friend gamewise, you're way behind them, or they really really need your help - and the card will stay unflipped for a long time, and by then you would probably have enough reasons to rest.

Now, to the real point: I don't think Elan is underpowered. With some Shticks (Chain Shirt, Conscience Angel and X-Treme Diplomacy*2 or Rapier), he can get a more than decent +6 damaging defense; Lute, Banjo and Dumb as Mud can make this even higher, and Poorly Planned Illusion is great to use if you started clearing the pile and came to a monster too tough for your swrod and wits. A boosted Rapier or Banjo can give you a decent attack as well. It's true that X-Treme Diplomacy is the only weapon you start with, and by itself isn't strong, but the Bard Song and Illusion will help you make some friends. Instead of throwing all of your loot down the drain for Shticks, gain them by fighting with assitance from your friends. It's completely possible, as long as you have enough friends. I had Roy for a good friend the second time I played Elan, and I defeated Xykon and won that game, two points ahead of Roy (there were two other players in that game as well).

[Halafax]

While I see your point about Elan eventually maturing with the right shtick progression, our group's problem was that Elan never really matured at all. In both cases he burned up his loot trying to keep up with the other players. Doing so made bard song stop working (because no one had Elan loot to ask for assistance with).

[The Giant]

That was the misatke: Don't try to keep up with other players and don't burn up your Loot. You have to play Elan like Elan, cluelessly walking around and getting into fights that are way over his head and counting on his friends to bail him out. You have to not worry about the fact that your shtick has a +1 Defense, just get in there and fight a Monster anyway. You get to add a d12, which means you still have a 50-50 chance to beat a Str 6. You'll lose some, yes, but who cares? There's no real penalty for losing to a Monster. Just hang around the Dungeon Entrance and pop back when you need to heal. Over time, you'll get lucky (or other players will take pity on you and assist you) and you'll win battles. Then you'll get shticks, and once you have a few of those, Elan will start to shine.

If you stress out about whether you are equal to the other players at every given moment, then yes, Elan sucks to play. If you wander around and do your best and not worry about whether you win or lose, Elan becomes surprisingly effective.

[Cybren]

yeah like you'd know.

[Halafax]

If you stress out about whether you are equal to the other players at every given moment, then yes, Elan sucks to play. If you wander around and do your best and not worry about whether you win or lose, Elan becomes surprisingly effective.

I strongly suspect you've played the game a few more time than I have (understatement), so I'm not going to disagree. At the same time, I don't see a lot of messages around here about Elan being "surprisingly effective". Elan appears to have a burden above and beyond the other characters (not being able to spend loot - his assist role requires it) while not really having an upgrade scheme beyond "hope for easy or lucky encounters".
We (my group) have had 2 un-fun experiences with Elan. That may have been a coincidence, but I think it merits some consideration on my part. My friends and I will attempt to play Elan with your recommendations in mind, although I'm still considering damage control measures, just in case.

[Bookman]

I strongly suspect you've played the game a few more time than I have (understatement), so I'm not going to disagree. At the same time, I don't see a lot of messages around here about Elan being "surprisingly effective". Elan appears to have a burden above and beyond the other characters (not being able to spend loot - his assist role requires it) while not really having an upgrade scheme beyond "hope for easy or lucky encounters".
We (my group) have had 2 un-fun experiences with Elan. That may have been a coincidence, but I think it merits some consideration on my part. My friends and I will attempt to play Elan with your recommendations in mind, although I'm still considering damage control measures, just in case.

I do know that El Jaspero and Masked Llama in 2 different occasions (that they mentioned elsewhere to me) WON the game with Elan and had a fun time doing it.

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

I do know that El Jaspero and Masked Llama in 2 different occasions (that they mentioned elsewhere to me) WON the game with Elan and had a fun time doing it.

I can't speak for LLama, but both times I won as Elan it was on loot from helping people with my crazy super-buffed Bard Song. And like the man said...you play Elan like Elan would play Elan. Sure, someone just screwed you...but don't you want to be nice and help them anyway? Best case of this was when Haley used whichever schtick it is that gets you to help, then takes the loot back, three times in a row on me. It was a perfect Elan moment, and of course I fell for it because I was playing Elan!

[Richard II]

I've only played the game three times, but twice were as Elan, and I gotta say I had a lot of fun, even managing to win one of the games. I'm not sure if we play differently, but we ask each other for help on almost every battle, and seldom lose to the monsters. So I got a lot of loot from others and used the loot that I got to give to others to help me win battles. I didn't end up with as many schticks as others but I had a LOT of Elan-droolworthy loot.

[Kyle]

I think I've seen Elan win more than anyone else, actually. Granted, he seems to get played almost every game.

Last night, we actually had a five player game, and Elan spanked everyone else except Durkon. That may have been because Haley's player wasn't paying much attention to her hit points, and the player running Roy was rolling terribily--serriously, everyone else had five or more shticks before he killed his first monster--and then annoyed Belkar's player [me] one too many times with the Screw This! cards. Thus, Elan and Durkon were the ones trailblazing towards Xykon, while a high strength Belkar was chasing a low strength Roy around the upper dungeon levels.

All in all, it was a fun couple of hours.

As for playing Elan, not only is he pretty decent once you get a lot of his shticks out, he's increadibly fun. The look on the last person's face to notice that everyone else is touching thier nose after you've flip the Wacky Hijinks card is priceless.

[The Giant]

Well, there's a few posts about how Elan is surprisingly effective. Also, I suspect that this is your problem, too:


(not being able to spend loot - his assist role requires it)

No, it doesn't.

No, seriously, it doesn't, at all. Your problem is that you've decided that trading is the only way to make it work, when you haven't actually tried it with not trading.

Spending Loot fot shticks is an emergency measure ONLY. Doing so too often will hurt you, because 3 Loot is worth 3 points at the end of the game, but 1 shtick is only worth 1 point. You're better off just hoarding all Elan-droolworthy Loot they give you and not getting ANY shticks then you are wasting your Loot on shtick-trading. Elan can win the game with just his starting shticks if he has enough Loot to make up for it!

Try this: Next tme you play Elan, pretend the rule that allows you to trade Loot in for shticks doesn't exist for you. Don't trade any away, either. Just hold on to your Loot come hell or high water and take whatever lumps that brings. Just stay on the same floor as everyone else and always pick Bard Song for any shticks you earn. When they start going after Xykon, you back up and head toward the Entrance so you can earn those "Exited First" points.

Chances are, at the end of the game, you will have 5-6 less shticks but 8-10 more Loot, and you will be in the running to win.

[Enaloindir]

Last night, we played a 3-player game, and I just had to play Elan.

We wanted to reduce the game time a bit, so we used the quick-and-dirty rule Rich provided somewhere on the boards: we all started with 6 loot, and 6 shticks (pick 3 normal starting shticks, shuffle remaining shticks, draw 4 and pick 3, reshuffle). I was a bit lucky to start with a boosted Bard Song and Conscience Angel, but the other players (Roy and Haley) also had some nice boosts for their Greenhilt Sword and Sneak Attack.

In the start, Roy was a bit unlucky, as he was presented a number of flying monsters, and didn't have his Bag of Tricks yet. I managed to defeat quite a few monsters, and gathered a shtick or two (only by trading monsters, I didn't trade any loot during the entire game). Meanwhile, Haley was ripping through monsters, quickly accumulating shticks. Luckily for me, she had handed me almost all the Elan-loot she drew.

I got some more boosts for my X-treme Diplomacy and Bard Song, and that's when Elan really began to shine. I could quite easily defeat monsters by asking the NPCs for assistance, but I found almost no Elan-loot.

By this time, Haley didn't really need any assistance anymore, and her loot stash was rapidly growing. That's when I started playing easy monsters for Roy, who was trailing quite badly.

After a short while, Roy started to catch up with the rest of us, and we finally managed to find stairs leading down to Xykon's lair. I helped Roy some more by giving him enough loot to enter Xykon's Lair. This way, the odds of Haley defeating Xykon diminished. I should mention that we spent such a long time on level 3, that Haley allready had all her shticks in play, Roy still had 5 shticks in his pile, and I had all but 2 of my shticks.
I also hung around Xykon's lair, easily defeating the Creature in the Darkness and earning enough monsters to draw my final shticks.

That's when Roy entered the final room of Xykon's Lair and encountered the guy himself. A few monsters, and Xykon was standing at a comfortable 24 Attack and 24 Defense. I helped Roy defeat Xykon, while hanging back near the stairs leaving the Lair. This way, I could get to the Dungeon Exit first, picking up some more loot along the way. By this time, we had already gone through the loot pile at least once, and I knew no Elan loot would be found (as none was discarded before). I picked up some nice Haley loot however, and kept it for myself.

I reached the Dungeon Exit first, with Haley coming in second. After adding up the bragging points, Roy had something in the low 30's, Haley had around 40, and I had 50.

After the game, I found out Haley had been holding some Elan loot (including the triple Elan) for when she had to fight Xykon. In this case, getting the triple Elan loot and letting Haley defeat Xykon would not have been that bad...I still would have had around 50 bragging points, and Haley would only have 46 or so.

In conslusion, Elan didn't seem all that bad to me. I was able to win by doing as Rich said: keeping all Elan loot, and never trading it in!

Sorry for the long post,
Enaloindir

[Halafax]

I think this strikes close to the heart of the matter, and it's something I've been considering. My group's issue with Elan was the difficulty we had "getting him going". Gaining the first few shticks was a trial- so much so that we eventually started eating his treasure to try to "kick start" him with some better shticks. Clealy that didn't work so well, for reasons already covered. Using quickstart would give him more options at the start of the game.


Last night, we played a 3-player game, and I just had to play Elan.

We wanted to reduce the game time a bit, so we used the quick-and-dirty rule Rich provided somewhere on the boards: we all started with 6 loot, and 6 shticks (pick 3 normal starting shticks, shuffle remaining shticks, draw 4 and pick 3, reshuffle).

[Castaras]

Elan is so damn fun to play.

The wacky hi-jinks was so fun when conspiring against that annoying halfling. And my little brother kept winning with Elan.

[ghost_warlock]

I played the game for the first time last night and I played as :elan:. At the end, the only reason I didn't win was because another player (:haley:) defeated Xykon in a 5-level dungeon. Of course, it helped that I ended up with Bard Song boosted into the stratosphere (3/4 shticks + Loot boost) almost from the beginning - the extra 6+ I'd add to a combat was just too tempting for them. We take the strategy that it's better to win by landslide than risk taking a Wound because of a crappy die roll; many battles were resolved without even using the die.

[EdgarVerona]

Just stay on the same floor as everyone else and always pick Bard Song for any shticks you earn.

Ack, I think I missed something in the rules... I thought when you get a schtick, you had to pick the top one off the pile? Is there a rule change that allows you to pick the schtick you get next? If so... awesome =)

And indeed, I agree with you that playing Elan can be fun/effective given the right people. I think that the best help for Elan is when people playing the game don't come to the table with an overwhelming desire to win. The game has seemed, to me, to be more about having fun in the act of playing. If we had a player obsessed with actually winning the game, I think it would've been less fun for everyone at the table... and Elan would've proven less useful as a result.

So the solution is: kick the type A personalities out of your games. =) Actually, I think I hold that as a general philosophy about life as a whole. =) lol

[Bookman]

Ack, I think I missed something in the rules... I thought when you get a schtick, you had to pick the top one off the pile? Is there a rule change that allows you to pick the schtick you get next? If so... awesome =)


If ya read carefully the rule is if you turn in 3 X's you get to look at the top 3 schticks and then choose your favorite and then put it on the bottom. However, when you turn in 3 Drool Point of Loot, You get only the TOP schtick. This also confused I and my sister :wink:

[EdgarVerona]

Ohh!!! Man, I totally missed that somehow! Woot, that'll make it a lot easier. Between my mistake on that rule and when we were using the dice that came in the box (see my other thread =) ), that first hour or so of playing basically consisted of all six players getting thoroughly hammered by every baddie they came across. =) It was mostly fixed when I started using my own dice, but I think everyone at my table will be relieved to know this rule about drawing the new schtick.

(reminds himself to practice learning comprehension... and maybe re-read the rule book again =) )

[GeoffA]

I just won a game playing Elan last night. Admittedly, my whole gaming group is relatively new to the game (each player had played it <5 times) so I think they may have called on my help more than was wise. I just kept all the loot people gave me, as well as some of the powerful (3 headed) loots belonging to other players. I spent most of the game following the group around, picking up extra treasures that were lying around and rarely getting in fights myself.

Pretty much every Elan valued treasure in the game + well-timed run for the exit = win.

Belkar tried to beat me up a couple of times, but once I won and once he decided to take the Amulet of Dorukan because it was useful to him, so it only set me back one point. Everyone else in my group seems to be unreasonably nice about not making player attacks depsite being highly vindictive with "Screw This!" cards.

[apegamer]

Speaking of picking up extra loot laying (lying?) around, Elan's Poorly Planned Illusion is great for moving piles of monsters on the 2nd and 3rd levels that are sitting on loot.

In one of the game events that I ran at Owlcon this weekend, Elan came in 2nd place using that strategy (he had 3 PPI's in play by the end of the game.) He probably would have won, but it was his first time playing and he didn't realize that the victory conditions allowed him to only count loot that HE drooled over (he had a huge pile of loot, but hardly any with his face.)

[Harkone]

In the games I have played so far, all the characters seem equally usable. Roy is obviously the most adept at defeating Xykon, but I have seen every character win the game at least once. I have found Elan and Haley to be deceptively good (in my opinion), and Vaarsuvius tends to end up low on loot (due to ranged attacking), but otherwise it seems like a pretty even playing field. Way to go, Game Designers!

[Arcade]

To add more support to Elan, I played on the weekend and won with Elan using the "keep all your loot" strategy. It took a looong time to get any schticks as the other players eagerly traded in their loot for schticks. It worked against V though, since V was schtick heavy, but couldn't go to Xykon's level until much later. In the end, Durkon beat Xykon and got out first. And Elan won by 1 point. (Elan 45, Durkon 44, V 40, Roy 30, Belkar 17).

I think honestly, some Belkar advice is needed far more than any of the other characters- they can all hold their own. But Belkar's abilities, while good, is overshadowed by the general feeling of everyone else not wanting to attack other players and shunning the one character who needs to.

[V Junior]

Elan isn't as bad as all that. I played three of my cousins. Minnie dropped out early (actually after Xykon had been defeated), but Hannah (Roy) and Izzy (Elan) drawed for first. She just attacked monsters and rested, and got help easy. Simple as that, really, and she drawed for first. Use her stratagy and Elan's not too bad!

[Kiero]

I found Elan a lot of fun to play, often asking other players if they wanted my help. Works better with 4 or more players so you can spread the love around. Also helps if you're asking them for help so there's a Loot economy going around.

Looking to win through Loot accumulation is much easier than messing about trying to get Schticks. Lets remember there are only four ways to get Bragging rights: Loot, Schticks, killing Xykon and getting out the dungeon before the others. Loot is the easiest of all for Elan if you encourage other players to take your help. Interestingly, I found when I played Elan that way, everyone generally asked for and gave help more readily.

As to trading Loot for Schticks, bad economy, don't do it. With any character.

[Melange]

I just played Elan and had a blast. I found it initially discouraging that I had only +1/+1 but found a way to milk it. I started offering other players "investments" I would give them a loot that had 1 drool for them, but 2 for me. That way I got +2 and then they could give it back for +4 (+bardsongs) a great gain for them (which could still be hurt by screw this cards). Doing this allowed me to bring my attacks/defenses to draws and wins by giving others a lucrative reason to support me. In the end I always got each item back because it was worth it for them to get +7-9 on top of the drool factor. I still won at the end from treasure, even with spending fun and the magic 8-ball for 2 shticks, and I stayed competive (especially when I finally got banjo)

[Harkone]

Yup, Elan rules

[Sirelroka]

I didn't have much fun playing Elan in a two person game. Perhaps it would be better with more.

[Enaloindir]

I didn't have much fun playing Elan in a two person game. Perhaps it would be better with more.
In a two person game, there are far too many opportunities to ask NPCs for assistance. It's the smarter move to use all your NPC loot before even starting to consider asking your "opponent" for assistance. This way, it's really hard for Elan to gather a lot of loot from giving other players assistance.

Enaloindir

[Drager]

I've had quite alot of fun with Elan by trading loot back to people, knowing they will be about to trade it stragiht back to me. I get Elan loot for assisting, then I fight a monster (usually a rubbish one) that I can't beat without assistance and give that loot to soemone who will be fighting a big monster next turn, then get it back on their turn, thus I get monsters and loot. You don't need to trade loot back all the time, just when you need a boost so mostly early game and then loot starts coming in more than going out so you end up +loot and +shticks.

Advantage of this is you help everyone else out all the time doing things this way so people are less likely to Screw you.

At least in my experiences.

[RandomNPC]

this sounds a lot like the munchkin game.......

anywho, im working 10 hour shifts now, so i might actually be able to get the game some time this year....

edit: also my main reason for posting:

is it a lot like munchkin?

[Kiero]

I've had quite alot of fun with Elan by trading loot back to people, knowing they will be about to trade it stragiht back to me. I get Elan loot for assisting, then I fight a monster (usually a rubbish one) that I can't beat without assistance and give that loot to soemone who will be fighting a big monster next turn, then get it back on their turn, thus I get monsters and loot. You don't need to trade loot back all the time, just when you need a boost so mostly early game and then loot starts coming in more than going out so you end up +loot and +shticks.

Advantage of this is you help everyone else out all the time doing things this way so people are less likely to Screw you.

At least in my experiences.

That's mine too. Play Elan as the helper who makes everyone's battles easier with Bard Song, and you do fine. Not least because it's cheap for them to give you Loot. Tends to make the game generally more amicable, but doesn't work if there are less than four players.