PF - Wall of Fire or Wall of Ice

[Winds of Nagual]

You can only choose one - which do you choose?

[Drachasor]

Wall of Ice. Making Barriers is good.

[Psyren]

Ice is more versatile. You can section the battlefield, block a volley of arrows, repair bridges or battlements, make a parapet etc. It also lasts much longer and doesn't need concentration.

[ericgrau]

+1 wall of ice.

[grarrrg]

Ice is more versatile. You can section the battlefield, block a volley of arrows, repair bridges or battlements, make a parapet etc. It also lasts much longer and doesn't need concentration.

But, but, but...It's FIRE!
Anyone can make a Wall of Ice (especially since it's winter), but who wouldn't want to make a WALL made out of FIRE!!

Fire.

[Drachasor]

Also, one of the biggest problems with Wall of Fire is that it just doesn't do enough damage. A 2nd level spell totally negates the damage, and even without that it doesn't do much.

About the only justification for it I can see would be if your arcane school is Fire and you have Permanent Walls of Fire that you reposition. RAW, you can do this no matter where the Wall of Fire is (the 30 ft. limit is for non-magical fires). Even then this isn't all that good, but it is funny.


But, but, but...It's FIRE!
Anyone can make a Wall of Ice (especially since it's winter), but who wouldn't want to make a WALL made out of FIRE!!

Fire.

Talk your DM into letting you get Energy Substitution from 3.5. Your Wall of Ice is now Fire.

Or get Lingering Spell Metamagic and your Fireball can last for one round. Maybe your DM lets Lingering Evocations (Evoker Arcane School) work with this, so it lasts even longer.

[deuxhero]

Fire is neat for a Summoner with a lesser dazing rod, but otherwise, meh.

[ericgrau]

Also, one of the biggest problems with Wall of Fire is that it just doesn't do enough damage. A 2nd level spell totally negates the damage, and even without that it doesn't do much.
And a 1st level protection from evil negates a 9th level dominate, but neither actually works for a variety of reasons including duration and casting time. If anything it's to the caster's advantage because he can ward himself and other party members in expectation of filling the field with a wall of fire, whereas foes won't predict it.

It has a huge area which is nice against large numbers of foes and in enclosed spaces, but that isn't always what/where you're fighting. So wall of ice is nicer for the greater versatility and good power as a no save but destructible battlefield control. But swapping it in plus plus resist energy on a dungeon run for a prepared caster wouldn't be a bad idea. Or getting it 2nd or later on a spontaneous caster, with a more general purpose spell first.

[Arbane]

Ice. On top of everything else mentioned, you can always melt it for water.

[Drachasor]

And a 1st level protection from evil negates a 9th level dominate, but neither actually works for a variety of reasons including duration and casting time. If anything it's to the caster's advantage because he can ward himself and other party members in expectation of filling the field with a wall of fire, whereas foes won't predict it.

Resist Energy lasts 10 min/level, and Prot from Evil only 1 min/level. Further, Fire Resistance is very common and there are many other spells that grant it as well as natural resistance. Even Fire Resistance 5 gets rid of most of the damage. Fire Resistance 10 makes going through the wall trivial. A lot of things have a lot more resistance.

Further, even 2d4 doesn't average out to even one hit die of damage per round. This is very, very little damage. And 1d6+CL is not much damage either. So it doesn't really do crowd control very well, nor does it help against anyone you are going to fight that is actually a threat.

It's simply far too weak.


It has a huge area which is nice against large numbers of foes and in enclosed spaces, but that isn't always what/where you're fighting. So wall of ice is nicer for the greater versatility and good power as a no save but destructible battlefield control. But swapping it in plus plus resist energy on a dungeon run for a prepared caster wouldn't be a bad idea. Or getting it 2nd or later on a spontaneous caster, with a more general purpose spell first.

I have to disagree. Firewall is a bad idea. It's not a good wall, doesn't do good damage, and there are plenty of non-metamagicked 3rd level spells that are a better use of your 4th level slot.

Friends don't let friends wall of fire.

[andreww]

I am going to act as devil's advocate and suggest Wall of Fire. Wall of Ice is just another battlefield control and not a very good one at that. It has all of 3hp per caster level so wont be stopping much for very long. If, as is likely, you have other control spells it isnt going to add much. Wall of Fire on the other hand:

1. Is freaking huge, 20' long per level.
2. Doesn't have to be straight. You can shape it to hit everything on the field of battle or create one in layered rows forcing enemies to move through multiple sections to get to you taking damage multiple times.
3. Does loads of damage to undead without a save.
4. Can have Dazing added to it making it an almost guaranteed kill against anything that doesn't have resistance to at least two elements (you will take Elemental Spell if using Dazing Spell) or all elements if you are an Admixture Wizard. Dazing Wall of Fire is an encounter ender for multiple opponents in the same way that Dazing Ball Lightning murders single target enemies.
5. You can throw people back into it with stuff like Telekinesis for more damage opportunities.
6. Size Large and bigger monsters will often have real problems getting out of it due to space limitations and so be taking automatic damage every round.
7. A two way combo of Wall of Fire and Wall of Force/Stone can spell death for any room of enemies which only has one entrance.

[Invader]

I think it's fair when debating the merits of one spell over the other to exclude metamagic, especially when you explain how it helps one but ignore how helps the other.

[andreww]

What metamagic are you thinking of applying to Wall of Ice?

[Winds of Nagual]

I was on board with ice - but we have a bullrusher (not a bull....er) in the party. Could pair nicely with fire.

[Invader]

What metamagic are you thinking of applying to Wall of ice

My point is, if you say x is good if you do this and this and this to make it better then its not that good to begin with.

[Winds of Nagual]

Doesn't have to be straight. You can shape it to hit everything on the field of battle

I didn't think you could do this...

Also


My point is, if you say x is good if you do this and this and this to make it better then its not that good to begin with.

While x is only better than y if you add stuff to it is a completely valid if y cannot have anything added to it. X gets a bonus for potential flexibility.

[andreww]

I didn't think you could do this...

The spell doesnt say one way or the other so expect table variation.

[Barstro]

The spell doesnt say one way or the other so expect table variation.

The spell does say;

opaque sheet of flame up to 20 ft. long/level or a ring of fire with a radius of up to 5 ft./two levels; either form 20 ft. high

That's "or" not "for example". You get a 20ft./lvl sheet or a ring. As much as I like it, you do not get to weave it in and out of the battlefield.

[ericgrau]

stuff
90% of things still won't have fire resistance. For the 10% that do, you use one of your other 10 spells. If a foe is resistant to that, you wall of fire. Changing your mind is a non-action that happens before any drawback. That's why overly specific defenses are downright laughably meaningless.

One thing you can do is use the circle version in a dungeon room so that there's no escape. Ahead of time, at the dungeon entrance you ward the party against fire because you actually know it's coming. In 2-3 rounds against a large number of foes it does a very large amount of damage, more than a fireball, due to the large area and no save. Enough to end an entire encounter quickly since the remaining hp will be easy pickings. There are also some other dungeon applications like using the concentration + X duration to hold a passage for a while and get some free damage from an action made before the fight even begins. The problem is you aren't always facing a large number of foes in an enclosed dungeon room, so you want to learn a more general purpose spell first. That's the real weakness. Specific defenses are a joke.


I was on board with ice - but we have a bullrusher (not a bull....er) in the party. Could pair nicely with fire.
The spell's advantage is against multiple foes not a single foe. He can swing his weapon for more damage. PF APG has a create pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit) spell at level 2 you can use instead. Specifically anyone bull rushed gets no save to avoid falling in; the spell is made for your situation. There's also a spiked pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spiked-pit) at level 3.

[Winds of Nagual]

Oh - I know pit spells. Just finding newer, better, and more creative ways of controlling the chess board. Out last fight we combined my summon pit with our sorcerer's flaming sphere.

[ericgrau]

Ah then there's dazing spell as suggested and also selective spell. Both are +1 metamagics though so assuming you're level 7-8 you need to use them on spells like (multi-targeted) magic missile and fireball for now. Later you can put them on higher level spells. For now I'd get wall of ice and then in a couple levels wall of fire could be more reasonable, especially with metamagic and an easier ability to spam resist energy and/or draconic reservoir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/draconic-reservoir) on the party. Since it's spammed maybe the sorcerer could grab resist energy.

[Invader]

I didn't think you could do this...

Also



While x is only better than y if you add stuff to it is a completely valid if y cannot have anything added to it. X gets a bonus for potential flexibility.

That's like saying a fighter is good if you take 20 lvls of wizard too.

It's just not a good way to form an argument imo.

It's the same as saying wall of ice is better if I quicken and extend it but I don't do the same for wall of fire.

[andreww]

Ah then there's dazing spell as suggested and also selective spell. Both are +1 metamagics though so assuming you're level 7-8 you need to use them on spells like (multi-targeted) magic missile and fireball for now. Later you can put them on higher level spells. For now I'd get wall of ice and then in a couple levels wall of fire could be more reasonable, especially with metamagic and an easier ability to spam resist energy and/or draconic reservoir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/draconic-reservoir) on the party. Since it's spammed maybe the sorcerer could grab resist energy.

Dazing Spell certainly isn't a +1 adjustment. Its ridiculous enough as +3. Also you cannot take selective until 10th level due to the skill prerequisites.

[Winds of Nagual]

That's like saying a fighter is good if you take 20 lvls of wizard too.

It's just not a good way to form an argument imo.

It's the same as saying wall of ice is better if I quicken and extend it but I don't do the same for wall of fire.

I MOSTLY agree with you. Perhaps a better way to state my argument was that Wall of Fire has more metamagic applications than Wall of Ice. Therefore metamagic can be considered a factor in the debate over 'which is best.'

[Bigmchuge]

Barring metamagic, I'd go with a firewall floating in the air above my victims weaving back and forth to prevent their escape (IIRC no wall spell can be placed where a current creature occupies the space). Constant damage may be small, but it could be the difference between winning and losing some fights.

Me and my friend played twin sorcerers in my last Pathfinder group. He was a pyromancer and I was a cryomancer. We once encircled a garrison with his firewall and 15 feet away was my ice wall. The garrison took damage coming out of their fort and continued to take damage until they broke through my wall, then took some more damage going through mine. Good times.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Create a wall of ice to the north. Then round up your criminals, make em wear black and swear an oath of brotherhood, then stick em on the wall.

[Nibbens]

Ice - For the hemisphere. 180hp to pass through one 5 foot square sounds like a heck of a crowd control device.
Like mentioned earlier, it's a good stalling tactic when you have them taking damage from some other source such as a wall of fire, or cloudkill, acid fog etc.

[andreww]

Ice - For the hemisphere. 180hp to pass through one 5 foot square sounds like a heck of a crowd control device.
Like mentioned earlier, it's a good stalling tactic when you have them taking damage from some other source such as a wall of fire, or cloudkill, acid fog etc.
How do you get that? It is still only 1 inch thick per caster level and has 3hp for inch of thickness which is far away from 180hp.

[ericgrau]

Ya it generally takes one hit to break through. It's usually no save though, so absolute worst case scenario you use hemisphere mode to trade actions with a foe and maybe do minor damage. Great after splitting up the field with straight walls of ice or other battlefield control to delay a foe while your foes mop the other weakened foes and then join you. Had a sorc do that. Or from the start you could trade actions with a very strong foe while your allies take care of the rest.

[Drachasor]

90% of things still won't have fire resistance. For the 10% that do, you use one of your other 10 spells. If a foe is resistant to that, you wall of fire. Changing your mind is a non-action that happens before any drawback. That's why overly specific defenses are downright laughably meaningless.

One thing you can do is use the circle version in a dungeon room so that there's no escape. Ahead of time, at the dungeon entrance you ward the party against fire because you actually know it's coming. In 2-3 rounds against a large number of foes it does a very large amount of damage, more than a fireball, due to the large area and no save. Enough to end an entire encounter quickly since the remaining hp will be easy pickings. There are also some other dungeon applications like using the concentration + X duration to hold a passage for a while and get some free damage from an action made before the fight even begins. The problem is you aren't always facing a large number of foes in an enclosed dungeon room, so you want to learn a more general purpose spell first. That's the real weakness. Specific defenses are a joke.


The spell's advantage is against multiple foes not a single foe. He can swing his weapon for more damage. PF APG has a create pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/create-pit) spell at level 2 you can use instead. Specifically anyone bull rushed gets no save to avoid falling in; the spell is made for your situation. There's also a spiked pit (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/spiked-pit) at level 3.

You seem to think that the piddling damage of the Wall of Fire is somehow going to "trap" creatures inside it. This is not the case. Short of exceptional circumstances, you are not going to be able to ensure enemies stay within the fire zone for more than a round, if that. And so this will generally be a lot less useful than Fireball -- especially since Fireball does its damage in one go.

And 2-3 rounds is not a "large amount of damage". It's just 4d4 to 6d4, or 10-15 damage. And that's IF they are close to it. Fireball at least can overwhelm meager fire resistance, so it is more generally useful. Wall of Fire cannot.

About the ONLY justification for Wall of Fire is...
1) The DM lets your Fire School Wizard move Permanent Walls of Fire no matter where they are. Then that's fun stuff even if it isn't optimal, though you could metamagic it up quite a lot.
2) Your DM lets you use Dazing Spell, one of the most broken metamagics ever written.
3) You can trap the enemies in an enclosed area they can't escape from, they have no fire resistance and can't get any, and they aren't more easily taken out by more conventional means.

And there are much, much better things you can do with your spells beyond spending 4 or so 2nd level spells to make Wall of Fire very marginally useful.

Wall of Ice has a lot more uses, such as making a bridge, holding off enemies for a round or two -- that's a long time in combat, and so forth.

[Nibbens]

Ice - For the hemisphere. 180hp to pass through one 5 foot square sounds like a heck of a crowd control device.
Like mentioned earlier, it's a good stalling tactic when you have them taking damage from some other source such as a wall of fire, or cloudkill, acid fog etc.
How do you get that? It is still only 1 inch thick per caster level and has 3hp for inch of thickness which is far away from 180hp.
http://paizo.com/prd/spells/wallOfIce.html
The hemisphere is 3 feet plus 1 foot per caster level with the same Hp progression as the sheet.
so, a 5 foot square is 60 inches. 60inchesx3hp = 180hp for a 5 foot square.

[andreww]

That is the radius of the hemisphere not the thickness of the walls. While the spell desciption is not entirely clear it still seems to be 1" thick per caster leve so 30hp at level 10.

[Nibbens]

That is the radius of the hemisphere not the thickness of the walls. While the spell desciption is not entirely clear it still seems to be 1" thick per caster leve so 30hp at level 10.
Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like a hemisphere is half of a sphere, so at some point, the thickness (from the center of the flat side of the hemisphere to the center of the round part of the hemisphere) will be as long as the radius is (thus creating the thickness) or else it cannot be a hemisphere, it would be a "bowl" or "swimming pool" formation according to your description.
You're right in saying it is confusing. It needs to be worded more clearly, I think. (or maybe include a diagram. lol.)

[ericgrau]

It's a hollow hemisphere. "Hemisphere" isn't necessarily solid.


You seem to think that the piddling damage of the Wall of Fire is somehow going to "trap" creatures inside it.
Fills a dungeon room. Resist energy allies. Hitting more targets makes damage add up. Not gonna repeat the rest.

Also has other options to essentially do a little mass damage without a combat action with prep, giving it a pseudo-quicken, and a use against undead.

[Larsen]

Maybe I am wrong, but it seems like a hemisphere is half of a sphere, so at some point, the thickness (from the center of the flat side of the hemisphere to the center of the round part of the hemisphere) will be as long as the radius is (thus creating the thickness) or else it cannot be a hemisphere, it would be a "bowl" or "swimming pool" formation according to your description.

Thats the difference between a sphere and a ball. Technically, a sphere has no thickness and is empty, the ball is a sphere filled with matter

[Nibbens]

Hmmm. I thought it was the other way around. lol. Oh well. Geometry fail on my part. haha.
Which now brings up an interesting question - why would a player ever chose the hemisphere when it severly limits the original form of the wall of ice with no additional benefit?
Even if it was for the curvature rather than the straight pane of ice, it still seems like a loss from 10 square feet per caster level.

[Drachasor]

Fills a dungeon room. Resist energy allies. Hitting more targets makes damage add up. Not gonna repeat the rest.

Enemies can leave the room (most rooms have multiples ways in and out).

Now you've spent 4 or more 2nd level spells to give one 4th level spell MARGINAL use. By the time it does remotely decent damage the combat is long over. Especially when most of the time a Fireball will fill up a dungeon room just fine.

Again, it's an extremely marginal spell. Wall of Ice can reliably delay enemies for a round or more and has non-combat uses. Wall of Fire takes many rounds to do anything remotely useful. A round is a very long time in combat, when most fights last 5 rounds or less.


Also has other options to essentially do a little mass damage without a combat action with prep, giving it a pseudo-quicken, and a use against undead.

No more than any other spell. I'd love to hear you explain how it is especially good against undead.


Hmmm. I thought it was the other way around. lol. Oh well. Geometry fail on my part. haha.
Which now brings up an interesting question - why would a player ever chose the hemisphere when it severly limits the original form of the wall of ice with no additional benefit?

To buy some time for the party to buff or perform actions within the hemisphere.
To protect someone in it.
To delay an enemy by placing them in it.

[Winds of Nagual]

To separate a charmed or berserk character from the rest of the party.

[TuggyNE]

http://paizo.com/prd/spells/wallOfIce.html
The hemisphere is 3 feet plus 1 foot per caster level with the same Hp progression as the sheet.
so, a 5 foot square is 60 inches. 60inchesx3hp = 180hp for a 5 foot square.

Ah, no. The thickness of the actual wall is still the same; the radius of the outside is the only thing specified. The hemisphere is not solid. As such, the HP totals for a 10' square section are used. (It's possible they would need to be reduced by some amount, but calculating that out would be tedious.)