Kraagor's Death

[Cikomyr]

While re-reading the comic where we see Kraagor's Death, I came to ponder something..


what if Kraagor wasn't actually dead, but instead he was caught by the Rift and sent to the RiftWorld? And no way to return because he was caught at the exact same time the rift was sealed?

Do you think that maybe Kraagor might make an appearance back into this comic?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

We have seen that at least one part of the Snarl is devoid of life, and possibly the rest of it (although the planet does have green continents, indicating plant life). I think that it is unlikely Kraagor would survive on a world populated only by a god-killing monstrosity.

[Cikomyr]

Kraagor is an Epic-level Barbarian Dwarf

He can survive anything

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Most, of not all of the Scribble was epic-level, and yet 4/6 (at least) are dead.

[orrion]

No need to spoiler, I should think. Your questions aren't new.

The best available information on Kraagor suggests he's deader than dead. Until there's new information, then, he's deader than dead.

[Cikomyr]

Most, of not all of the Scribble was epic-level, and yet 4/6 (at least) are dead.

Two were a puny humen with short lifespan
Another was a Wizard with d4 for hit points

Kraagor is a dwarf being able to live at least 200 years, has most likely +5 hit point/level due to Con bonus, and uses d12 hit points.

I'm pretty sure he could survive the Riftworld if he needed to.

but even if he died of old age, I wonder what he might have built inside the Riftworld? We never actually saw what "killed" Kraagor, we only get the information that.. he will be mourned, and he has been lost to everyone.

Methink he just... Went to the Other Side

[orrion]

Two were a puny humen with short lifespan
Another was a Wizard with d4 for hit points

Kraagor is a dwarf being able to live at least 200 years, has most likely +5 hit point/level due to Con bonus, and uses d12 hit points.

I'm pretty sure he could survive the Riftworld if he needed to.

but even if he died of old age, I wonder what he might have built inside the Riftworld? We never actually saw what "killed" Kraagor, we only get the information that.. he will be mourned, and he has been lost to everyone.

Methink he just... Went to the Other Side

Uh, the amount of health you have does not indicate that you can survive against anything. A spell like Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm) or Implosion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm) will kill someone if they have 5 health or 500 health if they fail the saves.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Snarl kills gods. A puny, low-epic dwarf stands no chance. Also, those Energy Drains would hit Kraagor's just as hard as they hit Dorukan.

[Cikomyr]

Spells with fortitude saves? :smallbiggrin:

[Cikomyr]

The Snarl kills gods. A puny, low-epic dwarf stands no chance. Also, those Energy Drains would hit Kraagor's just as hard as they hit Dorukan.

But here's the thing: We aren't sure that the Snarl did kill those Gods.

We aren't sure of anything. If the Snarl could easily kill gods, then why would Kraagor and Soon be battling it in the Crayon of Times?

There's more afoot here than meet the eyes. Methink the Original Six saw Kraagor being engulfed by the Rift/Snarl, and assumed he was consumed for all intent and purposes.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But here's the thing: We aren't sure that the Snarl did kill those Gods.

We aren't sure of anything. If the Snarl could easily kill gods, then why would Kraagor and Soon be battling it in the Crayon of Times?
They are battling it because they are trying to seal the rift. Also, we only see them fighting a single tendril (if you can call it fighting; none of them are actually striking each other).

If we discount the idea that the gods were slain, then we can discount the idea that they actually fought the Snarl, since both of those facts came from the same source.

[orrion]

Spells with fortitude saves? :smallbiggrin:

Missing the point.

[Keltest]

They are battling it because they are trying to seal the rift. Also, we only see them fighting a single tendril (if you can call it fighting; none of them are actually striking each other).

If we discount the idea that the gods were slain, then we can discount the idea that they actually fought the Snarl, since both of those facts came from the same source.

ehhhhh... Yes and No. The part where the snarl killed the gods clearly could not have come from anyone other than the gods themselves, since they (and the snarl) were the only survivors from that time. Since the god's motivations and actions are at this point pretty suspect, that makes that facet of the story hold a lot less weight than the idea that mortals could whack at the physical embodiment of disorder long enough to keep it from stabbing them.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

ehhhhh... Yes and No. The part where the snarl killed the gods clearly could not have come from anyone other than the gods themselves, since they (and the snarl) were the only survivors from that time. Since the god's motivations and actions are at this point pretty suspect, that makes that facet of the story hold a lot less weight than the idea that mortals could whack at the physical embodiment of disorder long enough to keep it from stabbing them.
Fair enough, I suppose. My personal theory as to why the Snarl didn't just kill them is that it wasn't focusing it's full attention on them, and it had independent out a single tentacle. However, I see your point.

[Snails]

The Snarl kills gods. A puny, low-epic dwarf stands no chance. Also, those Energy Drains would hit Kraagor's just as hard as they hit Dorukan.

The Scribble Tale explicitly suggests that a very high level mortal has much greater staying power than a god, when it comes to standing toe to toe with the Snarl. How to rate "low epic" here is simply unknowable.

Obviously it is impossible to imagine prevailing against the Snarl, when it comes to a fight to the death, regardless of martial skill.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It says that the gods are more vulnerable. However, given that the Snarl eliminated two gods in one round, this could mean it would eliminate one mortal (of the same level) per round. Less vulnerable =/= better against.

[orrion]

The Scribble Tale explicitly suggests that a very high level mortal has much greater staying power than a god, when it comes to standing toe to toe with the Snarl. How to rate "low epic" here is simply unknowable.

Obviously it is impossible to imagine prevailing against the Snarl, when it comes to a fight to the death, regardless of martial skill.

No, it said "Some have theorized since that the gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been."

Low epic is not equivalent to the gods.

[Everyl]

How might Kraagor have survived being sealed into the Snarl's prison-dimension? Well, "... The Snarl clawed and scraped at its dark prison, but it could not break free on its own. In that demiplane, its divine energy was nulled, leaving it weakened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html)."

Based on that quote, it's entirely possible that inside one of the rifts is actually the safest place to fight the Snarl from. Depending just how thorough the "nulling" of its "divine energy" is, it might not be able to "unmake" opponents - or even hurt them at all - inside its prison.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

How might Kraagor have survived being sealed into the Snarl's prison-dimension? Well, "... The Snarl clawed and scraped at its dark prison, but it could not break free on its own. In that demiplane, its divine energy was nulled, leaving it weakened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html)."

Based on that quote, it's entirely possible that inside one of the rifts is actually the safest place to fight the Snarl from. Depending just how thorough the "nulling" of its "divine energy" is, it might not be able to "unmake" opponents - or even hurt them at all - inside its prison.

Ooh, good find. Based on that, I am willing to concede that if Kraagor had ended up on Riftworld, he could survive. It also tells how they could hold of part of the Snarl, but it slaughtered the gods.

[Keltest]

Ooh, good find. Based on that, I am willing to concede that if Kraagor had ended up on Riftworld, he could survive. It also tells how they could hold of part of the Snarl, but it slaughtered the gods.

erm... not to put too fine a point on it, but he would still be dead unless the snarl planet has fresh water and edible plant or animal life, and the rift he went in dumped him near both.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Water (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html).
Plants (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html).
If the planet has oceans, it has rivers too. That means he has fresh water. He can survive.

[Forikroder]

erm... not to put too fine a point on it, but he would still be dead unless the snarl planet has fresh water and edible plant or animal life, and the rift he went in dumped him near both.

or he ahd a ring of sustenance (or whjatever that thing was called) or any of the other dozens of magical items that could circumvent that, like a ring of regeneration for isntance

[Everyl]

erm... not to put too fine a point on it, but he would still be dead unless the snarl planet has fresh water and edible plant or animal life, and the rift he went in dumped him near both.

Or a Ring of Sustenance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#sustenance). They're not what most players would call "optimal," but they're cheap (among magic items) and highly practical.

Also, there appears to be green on some of the landmasses when Blackwing peeks into the rift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html), which might indicate that some plant life survives on the riftworld. Survival is a class skill for Barbarians, so he might be able to forage enough food to survive if that is the case.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

or he ahd a ring of sustenance (or whjatever that thing was called) or any of the other dozens of magical items that could circumvent that, like a ring of regeneration for isntance

Or, if he has a Decanter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater) with him*, he can produce endless water. However, a Ring of Regeneration couldn't help because damage obtained by starvation or dehydration can't be healed until the person gets food or water.

*I can't think of a reason why he would, but this is all a hypothetical situation anyways.

[orrion]

or he ahd a ring of sustenance (or whjatever that thing was called) or any of the other dozens of magical items that could circumvent that, like a ring of regeneration for isntance

Yes of course, because Kraagor obviously planned to get sent into a rift where there was no chance of either one.


Before someone brings it up - whether or not your real life group of players would have such a magic item by this point isn't indicative of a character in the comic doing so. We've seen that often enough.

[Forikroder]

Or, if he has a Decanter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#decanterofEndlessWater) with him*, he can produce endless water. However, a Ring of Regeneration couldn't help because damage obtained by starvation or dehydration can't be healed until the person gets food or water.

*I can't think of a reason why he would, but this is all a hypothetical situation anyways.

regeneration can get you limbs back though right?


Yes of course, because Kraagor obviously planned to get sent into a rift where there was no chance of either one.


Before someone brings it up - whether or not your real life group of players would have such a magic item by this point isn't indicative of a character in the comic doing so. We've seen that often enough.

it wouldnt be wierd if they camped near the gates for long periods of time or needed there spellcasters to cast long rituals and had some just in case supplys ready, as a barbarian dwarf he can carry a ton of stuff just fine its not too far fetched he has something to help him survive

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yes. I'm not sure what that has to do with starvation.

[Forikroder]

Yes. I'm not sure what that has to do with starvation.

step 1: cut off arm
step 2: eat it
step 3: repeat as neccesary

[Jaxzan Proditor]

step 1: cut off arm
step 2: eat it
step 3: repeat as neccesary
Oh, yes, now I see what you are getting at.

[orrion]

it wouldnt be wierd if they camped near the gates for long periods of time or needed there spellcasters to cast long rituals and had some just in case supplys ready, as a barbarian dwarf he can carry a ton of stuff just fine its not too far fetched he has something to help him survive

The way this works is that the characters don't have items until it's shown or deduced that they have items.

It hasn't been shown and it can't currently be deduced, so Kraagor doesn't have those items.


Besides, he's dead. You can infer a floor where gods are lying down, and I can infer a dead guy from the battle with the Snarl and the Scribble members mourning around his statue.

Can't really think of a reason for him to be alive that wouldn't be accomplished by a better method, anyway.

[Forikroder]

The way this works is that the characters don't have items until it's shown or deduced that they have items.

It hasn't been shown and it can't currently be deduced, so Kraagor doesn't have those items.


Besides, he's dead. You can infer a floor where gods are lying down, and I can infer a dead guy from the battle with the Snarl and the Scribble members mourning around his statue.

Can't really think of a reason for him to be alive that wouldn't be accomplished by a better method, anyway.

Dorukon said "not until your clear" whatever he was casting Kraagor would ahve been caught in it too and Dorukon was sealing the rift so theres an extremely high chance that Kraagor was still alive after he cast the spell, furthermore the Snarl is weaker inside his prison then outside so the odds are actually pretty decent that Kraagar could survive

also i disagree with your first statement, even if theres no evidence either way if one can make a good argument that theyd have it then its reason to assume they do

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Personally, I agree that Kraagor is dead. I we just hypothesizeing how he would have survived if he had been stuck in Riftworld.

[Forikroder]

Personally, I agree that Kraagor is dead. I we just hypothesizeing how he would have survived if he had been stuck in Riftworld.

the more i think about it though the more i like him somehow surviving

makes me think of a really crazy theory

[Loreweaver15]

Dorukon said "not until your clear" whatever he was casting Kraagor would ahve been caught in it too and Dorukon was sealing the rift so theres an extremely high chance that Kraagor was still alive after he cast the spell, furthermore the Snarl is weaker inside his prison then outside so the odds are actually pretty decent that Kraagar could survive

also i disagree with your first statement, even if theres no evidence either way if one can make a good argument that theyd have it then its reason to assume they do

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on the people trying to prove that he has something we've never seen or heard about, not the other way 'round.

[orrion]

Dorukon said "not until your clear" whatever he was casting Kraagor would ahve been caught in it too and Dorukon was sealing the rift so theres an extremely high chance that Kraagor was still alive after he cast the spell, furthermore the Snarl is weaker inside his prison then outside so the odds are actually pretty decent that Kraagar could survive

You don't have anything to quantify "weaker" with. All you've got is the upper bound of power, which is enough to slaughter gods with. For all we know, the Snarl's power could get quartered and it could still kill Kraagor without thinking about it.



also i disagree with your first statement, even if theres no evidence either way if one can make a good argument that theyd have it then its reason to assume they do

Your definition of a good argument and my definition of a good argument diverge rather significantly.

[Forikroder]

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on the people trying to prove that he has something we've never seen or heard about, not the other way 'round.

and how do you expect someone to do that if you refuse to accept anything but hard evidence showing him using it?


You don't have anything to quantify "weaker" with. All you've got is the upper bound of power, which is enough to slaughter gods with. For all we know, the Snarl's power could get quartered and it could still kill Kraagor without thinking about it.

Kraagar was able to hold him back at the rift, if he got quartered then it would be Kraagars advantage or at least weak enough for him to escape

[Loreweaver15]

and how do you expect someone to do that if you refuse to accept anything but hard evidence showing him using it?

I don't, that's how :P You're suggesting something for which there is no evidence and for which there is no inference. I can buy the possibility of Kraagor being alive; it's be interesting. But the methods you're proposing rely on you making stuff up. You can't just say "It could work so since there's nothing explicitly saying it didn't we should assume he did that."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Somewhat related to the discussion: When I first read the strip featuring Kraagor's death, I thought Dorukan's spell had somehow turned him into a statue, and that the statue was the gate. Of course, looking back on it, the statue is facing the wrong way and has some kind of base, so that theory can't be right. I think it is interesting what can seem likely at one moment and then silly the next.

[jere7my]

Sorry, but the burden of proof is on the people trying to prove that he has something we've never seen or heard about, not the other way 'round.

There's no "burden of proof" in spitballing. If it's a possibility, it's a possibility; no hard evidence is required.

[Loreweaver15]

There's no "burden of proof" in spitballing. If it's a possibility, it's a possibility; no hard evidence is required.

Oh, I know. I was specifically addressing him saying "It could work so we should assume that's how he did it".

[Lord_Burch]

Kraagar was able to hold him back at the rift, if he got quartered then it would be Kraagars advantage or at least weak enough for him to escape

He hold off exactly one arm of the snarl, and that was probably with healing support from Soon and Lirian. And, even if he did, somehow, survive the rift being sealed over him, how would he be able to fight a running battle with a god-killing abomination for, what, 90 years now?

[jere7my]

Oh, I know. I was specifically addressing him saying "It could work so we should assume that's how he did it".

Ah, fair enough.

[Forikroder]

I don't, that's how :P You're suggesting something for which there is no evidence and for which there is no inference. I can buy the possibility of Kraagor being alive; it's be interesting. But the methods you're proposing rely on you making stuff up. You can't just say "It could work so since there's nothing explicitly saying it didn't we should assume he did that."

the snarl was partly outside its prison, Kraagor was outside the Rift (obviously) and Dorukon said he wasnt clear (as in he was in the area of effect of his spell) with this we can tell that his spll doesnt just grab the edges of the pull it closed like a curtain but creates a sphere (or some other shape) around the rift that pushs everything inside (or at least in some way forces stuff inside the rift) before sealing it

all evidence points to Kraagor being alive before the spell is case, Soon seemed to think at least that Dorukon was ready to cast and was holding it back for Kraagar to get free

since we know that Kraagar did not get free in time (on account of him not being there) that means he was still alive when they cast the spell, since he was not clear he would ahve been forced inside the rift along with the snarl

the inside of the Snarls rift nulls divine energy leaving the snarl weaker inside then outside, since Kraagar could survive it outside he must have been able to survive it inside as well

weve seen a planet, it has fresh water and green so theres a high chance of there being edible sustanance to sustain Kraagar and theres a few magic items that would have made it easy as well, and as a Dwarf he has a high life expectancy so its unlikely hed have died from old age

so theres actually a good chance of him being alive

[orrion]

and how do you expect someone to do that if you refuse to accept anything but hard evidence showing him using it?

You can't. Welcome to the point. Something isn't true just because it could have happened that way.



Kraagar was able to hold him back at the rift, if he got quartered then it would be Kraagars advantage or at least weak enough for him to escape

Alternatively, Kraagor wasn't able to hold the Snarl back at the rift, which is why he's dead.

You're using something that you can't prove happened as proof that something else happening afterward.


By the way, doesn't anyone think the Scribble would have tried to bring him back to life?

[Forikroder]

You can't. Welcome to the point. Something isn't true just because it could have happened that way.

its not false jsut because it may not have happened that way


Alternatively, Kraagor wasn't able to hold the Snarl back at the rift, which is why he's dead.

You're using something that you can't prove happened as proof that something else happening afterward.

im not saying either did or did not happen, im jsut discussing it to try to guess what might happen next

[orrion]

weve seen a planet, it has fresh water and green so theres a high chance of there being edible sustanance to sustain Kraagar and theres a few magic items that would have made it easy as well, and as a Dwarf he has a high life expectancy so its unlikely hed have died from old age

so theres actually a good chance of him being alive

Oceans aren't fresh water. Besides, to you the water shows the Snarl may not even exist anymore.




and as for the water, that shows that the snarl may not even exist anymore


So, by your own argument you can't have both. Either the Snarl exists and there's no water for Kraagor, or there's water and the Snarl doesn't exist.

Care to pick one?

[Forikroder]

Oceans aren't fresh water. Besides, to you the water shows the Snarl may not even exist anymore.



So, by your own argument you can't have both. Either the Snarl exists and there's no water for Kraagor, or there's water and the Snarl doesn't exist.

Care to pick one?

....................?

whats the point even bringing that up at all? theres obviously a planet there, and theres obviously water why are you trying to say its impossible for there to be no water for Kraagor?

[Cikomyr]

Also, Girard seems to hold Soon especially responsible for Kraagor's death/departure, which again wouldn't make sense if Kraagor was simply a victim of the Snarl. The only reason Soon would be held responsible for Kraagor's absence is if his instructions were the actual cause.

Like casting the Sealing Spell on the Rift while Kraagor was still nearby, catching him nearby?


Also, I disagree with the notion that Kraagor would have had to constantly fight the Snarl for all that time. After all, we don't know what's happening INSIDE the Rift, and how the Snarl behaves in his own prison universe.

Finally, like many, many people said: food and water are present in Riftworld, so sustenance wouldn't have been a problem. So please people, stop having your meaningless discussion about a Ring of Sustenance.

While I agree that the evidence shown so far is pointing out to Kraagor's death, I am saying that the evidence is foggier than previously assumed, and that it might end up playing a major plot point in the future.

Unless the Giant reads this thread, gets angry that I guess a plot point he planned ahead of time, and change it out of spite. Didn't he said he'd change stuff if we guessed it?

[Forikroder]

Also, Girard seems to hold Soon especially responsible for Kraagor's death/departure, which again wouldn't make sense if Kraagor was simply a victim of the Snarl. The only reason Soon would be held responsible for Kraagor's absence is if his instructions were the actual cause.

Like casting the Sealing Spell on the Rift while Kraagor was still nearby, catching him nearby?


Also, I disagree with the notion that Kraagor would have had to constantly fight the Snarl for all that time. After all, we don't know what's happening INSIDE the Rift, and how the Snarl behaves in his own prison universe.

Finally, like many, many people said: food and water are present in Riftworld, so sustenance wouldn't have been a problem. So please people, stop having your meaningless discussion about a Ring of Sustenance.

While I agree that the evidence shown so far is pointing out to Kraagor's death, I am saying that the evidence is foggier than previously assumed, and that it might end up playing a major plot point in the future.

Unless the Giant reads this thread, gets angry that I guess a plot point he planned ahead of time, and change it out of spite. Didn't he said he'd change stuff if we guessed it?

he has everything planned out so aside from act of (stronger) god nothing is changing in the story

[UristMcRandom]

Personal opinion: it looks like Kraagor is actually blocking the Snarl from grabbing Soon. Any chance that THAT's why Girard blamed Soon?

And yes, I know this is slightly off-topic.

[Forikroder]

Personal opinion: it looks like Kraagor is actually blocking the Snarl from grabbing Soon. Any chance that THAT's why Girard blamed Soon?

And yes, I know this is slightly off-topic.

Soon ordered Dorukon to cast the spell before Kraagar to get "clear" so thats likely it

[Everyl]

I don't feel like getting caught in the crossfire of another Orrion-Forikroder discussion today, so I'm just going to clarify my position and move on (unless this thread steers back to more civil conversation).

I think that Kraagor might be alive.

I read the crayon comic about his death as saying that he was caught in the rift-sealing spell for the last rift, as a result of Lirian and Dorukan following Soon's order to cast before Kraagor was clear. This also helps explain why the OotScribble tore itself apart arguing after the gates were built - at least three of them participated to some degree in the (apparent) death of a fourth.

The fact that Soon and Kraagor were standing that close to the rift to begin with implies that they had a reasonable expectation of surviving at least a few rounds going toe-to-tentacle with one of the Snarl's tendrils. If the Snarl is indeed weaker in its prison than out, then it's possible that an epic barbarian might have survived the initial clash that would inevitably ensue once the last Gate was in place. Dwarves have long lifespans, and there are numerous ways he might have survived, some based purely on the comic (green landmasses seen through Soon's Rift imply vegetation, the clouds over the Riftsea seen through Girard's Rift imply freshwater precipitation, and Survival is a class skill for barbarians) and others based on D&D rules speculation (magic items). Furthermore, Kraagor being alive would prevent his resurrection just as effectively as him being unmade by the Snarl.

So there is a plausible scenario in which Kraagor could have survived, based on what is known so far. Is it the only way that things could have happened? Hardly. The OotScribble certainly thought he was dead, and they might have good reasons for believing that besides what we've seen. The information we have is far from complete, and there are years of updates yet to go - I'd be surprised if we get good answers before the final act. One-in-a-million chances have this way of defying probability if the plot calls for it (:elan:), and I think it would be a pretty cool twist if, when the Order does finally track down a surviving member of the Scribble to regale them with critical exposition, it's completely-unexpected Kraagor instead of Serini.

That being said, the theory is just a theory. It's speculation, based on what we've seen so far and extrapolating a little beyond that. Some speculation turns out to be accurate, some doesn't. I'll deal with it the same way I deal with all other speculative theories I read and/or come up with: by continuing to read the comic, and enjoying it whether the speculation turns out to be right or wrong.

[SlashDash]

How can Kraagor survive? Easily, if the Giant wanted it that way it would happen. The technobabble can easily go either way on this one.

For the record, it's not really unheard of and as a plot arc was used quite often in other stories.
Big thing of "nothingness" devours something and then that something takes it over it slowly.

He wouldn't be with the Snarl, he would be become one with it.




But of course, that doesn't mean anything. The story can really go either way.

[MrMercury]

Uh, the amount of health you have does not indicate that you can survive against anything. A spell like Destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm) or Implosion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm) will kill someone if they have 5 health or 500 health if they fail the saves.

Both spells were actually demonstrated by Redcloak :smallbiggrin:

[Hopeless]

No, it said "Some have theorized since that the gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been."

Low epic is not equivalent to the gods.

Two points of interest;

1) Kraagor isn't a god... he's a dwarf and they're notoriously tough, argumentative and much more likely to be eating the Snarl than vice versa...:smallwink:

2)I think the reason Girard was p***ed is because Soon didn't mention his wife using divination magics through the rift until they did!:smallmad:

Also except Lirian's gate there was nothing to suggest the Snarl appeared at any until the last gate suggesting something they did there provoked the Snarl.

It wouldn't have been the first time a Paladin forgot to mention stuff that important!

[DeliaP]

That being said, the theory is just a theory. It's speculation, based on what we've seen so far and extrapolating a little beyond that. Some speculation turns out to be accurate, some doesn't. I'll deal with it the same way I deal with all other speculative theories I read and/or come up with: by continuing to read the comic, and enjoying it whether the speculation turns out to be right or wrong.

Do you mind if I sig that?? :smallsmile:

[Snails]

No, it said "Some have theorized since that the gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been."

Low epic is not equivalent to the gods.

The gods themsleves do not necessarily have more class levels than a low epic character.

[Snails]

How might Kraagor have survived being sealed into the Snarl's prison-dimension? Well, "... The Snarl clawed and scraped at its dark prison, but it could not break free on its own. In that demiplane, its divine energy was nulled, leaving it weakened (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html)."

Based on that quote, it's entirely possible that inside one of the rifts is actually the safest place to fight the Snarl from. Depending just how thorough the "nulling" of its "divine energy" is, it might not be able to "unmake" opponents - or even hurt them at all - inside its prison.

Nice catch.

[Sir_Dr_D]

You know it is always possible that Kragaar is only spirtually alive, trapped in the embodiment of the snarl. I am not sure even the order of the scribble understood what happens when the snarl consumes someone.

[Lombard]

I think it is unlikely though not impossible that K-dude is alive in there.

That being said, for me it would be 100% pure awesomeness if he did live and had to like.. battle stuff and survive for all these years like Robinson Crusoe and is now like a level 30 barbarian with 500+ hp and all the Rage feats etc. :thog:

[Snails]

That being said, for me it would be 100% pure awesomeness if he did live and had to like.. battle stuff and survive for all these years like Robinson Crusoe and is now like a level 30 barbarian with 500+ hp and all the Rage feats etc. :thog:

Now that you mention it, K-dude meeting Thog-dude would be quite fun.

[orrion]

The gods themsleves do not necessarily have more class levels than a low epic character.

The distinction of class levels was never made and even if it were granted I'm still waiting to hear how low epic characters are equivalent to gods.

[Snails]

The distinction of class levels was never made and even if it were granted I'm still waiting to hear how low epic characters are equivalent to gods.

"Equivalent" is your word. How it is relevant to this discussion is your row to hoe.

Parse your own words carefully...

No, it said "Some have theorized since that the gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been."

Low epic is not equivalent to the gods.

The first part, no one is disagreeing about.

What I am pointing out is we do not know that gods have more than twentysomething levels. They may happen to have, say, an Asgardian racial template or Olympian racial template of a whopping large Level Adjustment, which does not seem to be much help when facing the Snarl. In fact, being a bog standard humanoid is better than divine in that situation.

[orrion]

"Equivalent" is your word. How it is relevant to this discussion is your row to hoe.

Parse your own words carefully...


The first part, no one is disagreeing about.

What I am pointing out is we do not know that gods have more than twentysomething levels. They may happen to have, say, an Asgardian racial template or Olympian racial template of a whopping large Level Adjustment, which does not seem to be much help when facing the Snarl. In fact, being a bog standard humanoid is better than divine in that situation.

Proving that is your row to hoe. Good luck.

[David Argall]

The current strip gives a serious hit to the idea that Kraagor is still alive. It implies a dead world. With a living world we can imagine that the Snarl loses track of Kraagor in the mob or just doesn't care about one more dwarf. But with the dead world, what else does the Snarl have to do except to hunt Kraagor down? And the explosion makes it less likely the Snarl has mellowed.
The idea of the party visiting the Snarl world also took a hit, which makes the idea of Kraagor surviving less plot helpful. If the party were to visit the Snarl world, meeting Kraagor is a possible development, but if they are staying on this world, Kraagor seems to have no purpose.
The idea is not dead yet, but it is on serious life support.

[Cikomyr]

The current strip gives a serious hit to the idea that Kraagor is still alive. It implies a dead world. With a living world we can imagine that the Snarl loses track of Kraagor in the mob or just doesn't care about one more dwarf. But with the dead world, what else does the Snarl have to do except to hunt Kraagor down? And the explosion makes it less likely the Snarl has mellowed.
The idea of the party visiting the Snarl world also took a hit, which makes the idea of Kraagor surviving less plot helpful. If the party were to visit the Snarl world, meeting Kraagor is a possible development, but if they are staying on this world, Kraagor seems to have no purpose.
The idea is not dead yet, but it is on serious life support.

What? :smallconfused:

[orrion]

What? :smallconfused:

In 945 Laurin said she couldn't sense any fish. No fish in the ocean implies dead world.

[Snails]

Proving that is your row to hoe. Good luck.

Your concession has been noted. Thanks!!!

[Loreweaver15]

In 945 Laurin said she couldn't sense any fish. No fish in the ocean implies dead world.

I hate to agree with David, but yeah; it's very unlikely, but not impossible, that Kraagor has survived.

[Death Knight of]

Kraagor is an Epic-level Barbarian Dwarf

He can survive anything

Not true, the snarl is friggin brutal and bloodthirsty, he'll kill kraagor the first chance it gets

[Death Knight of]

The Snarl kills gods. A puny, low-epic dwarf stands no chance. Also, those Energy Drains would hit Kraagor's just as hard as they hit Dorukan.

Shojo (remember him?) that the snarl was more effective against the gods, kraagor has a pretty good chance of surviving

[Death Knight of]

erm... not to put too fine a point on it, but he would still be dead unless the snarl planet has fresh water and edible plant or animal life, and the rift he went in dumped him near both.

Kraagor is epic level, endurance checks can get him by for many years

[Death Knight of]

the snarl was partly outside its prison, Kraagor was outside the Rift (obviously) and Dorukon said he wasnt clear (as in he was in the area of effect of his spell) with this we can tell that his spll doesnt just grab the edges of the pull it closed like a curtain but creates a sphere (or some other shape) around the rift that pushs everything inside (or at least in some way forces stuff inside the rift) before sealing it

all evidence points to Kraagor being alive before the spell is case, Soon seemed to think at least that Dorukon was ready to cast and was holding it back for Kraagar to get free

since we know that Kraagar did not get free in time (on account of him not being there) that means he was still alive when they cast the spell, since he was not clear he would ahve been forced inside the rift along with the snarl

the inside of the Snarls rift nulls divine energy leaving the snarl weaker inside then outside, since Kraagar could survive it outside he must have been able to survive it inside as well

weve seen a planet, it has fresh water and green so theres a high chance of there being edible sustanance to sustain Kraagar and theres a few magic items that would have made it easy as well, and as a Dwarf he has a high life expectancy so its unlikely hed have died from old age

so theres actually a good chance of him being alive

Ohh, and being a barbarian, kraagor would have some access to primal power and fight in top form

[Death Knight of]

How awesome would it be to have a wacky scene with an old kraagor being hailed as either king or slayer of the snarl in rift world?

And a relative of durkon no less?

[Loreweaver15]

At this point, with the emphasis dwarf culture has on ancestors, I think Durkon would be aware of Kraagor if they were related.

(Also, instead of posting five times in a row, please use the EDIT button)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Shojo (remember him?) that the snarl was more effective against the gods, kraagor has a pretty good chance of surviving
So, Kraagor has the same level as a god now?

[Death Knight of]

Pretty much

[Keltest]

So, Kraagor has the same level as a god now?

cant be. O-chul is the only one allowed to be credited with feats far beyond his actual ability by the community.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

cant be. O-chul is the only one allowed to be credited with feats far beyond his actual ability by the community.
What feats was he credited with?

[Domino Quartz]

What feats was he credited with?

He basically became the "Chuck Norris" of OotS. People were making up "O-Chul facts" (stuff like "<person> doesn't wear a watch - he decides what time it is," except D&D/OotS-specific).

[Jaxzan Proditor]

He basically became the "Chuck Norris" of OotS. People were making up "O-Chul facts" (stuff like "<person> doesn't wear a watch - he decides what time it is," except D&D/OotS-specific).
:smallsigh:
Really? I mean, I like O-Chul, but I think that is taking it a little far. I hope no one does that for Kraagor. Probably doesn't have a big enough fan base.

[Cikomyr]

:smallsigh:
Really? I mean, I like O-Chul, but I think that is taking it a little far. I hope no one does that for Kraagor. Probably doesn't have a big enough fan base yet.

Fixed :smallwink:

[Keltest]

:smallsigh:
Really? I mean, I like O-Chul, but I think that is taking it a little far. I hope no one does that for Kraagor. Probably doesn't have a big enough fan base.

Well, one would think that Chuck Norris jokes would be taking it too far as well.

One of the rules of society is that the cooler a person really is, the cooler their legend will be.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, one would think that Chuck Norris jokes would be taking it too far as well.


Yeah, I don't really like Chuck Norris jokes either.

[orrion]

Pretty much

No. There's no evidence that Kraagor had anywhere near a god's powers, or that any low epic character does.

[Death Knight of]

Well, with the snarls divine power dampened, possibly nullified, i guess kraagor woulda survived given he only has physical prowess and minimal primal power

[Loreweaver15]

:smallsigh:
Really? I mean, I like O-Chul, but I think that is taking it a little far. I hope no one does that for Kraagor. Probably doesn't have a big enough fan base.

It started when the Giant revealed that O-Chul, a level 11-13ish character, had a Constitution score in the mid-twenties, and also had been surviving death traps and constant damage from two epic-level casters for months.

[Cikomyr]

It started when the Giant revealed that O-Chul, a level 11-13ish character, had a Constitution score in the mid-twenties, and also had been surviving death traps and constant damage from two epic-level casters for months.

Plus, there's the method how he acquired Xykon's spell list

One saving throw at the time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)

If that's not badass, what is?

[Kish]

:smallsigh:
Really? I mean, I like O-Chul, but I think that is taking it a little far. I hope no one does that for Kraagor. Probably doesn't have a big enough fan base.
Watching someone insist, based on practically no actual information, that Kraagor could survive the Snarl trying to kill him forever, I think that ship has already sailed.

[Loreweaver15]

Plus, there's the method how he acquired Xykon's spell list

One saving throw at the time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html)

If that's not badass, what is?

Yeah, that joke made itself.

[Death Knight of]

No. There's no evidence that Kraagor had anywhere near a god's powers, or that any low epic character does.

Kraagor would be ulti epic by now if he survived

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Kraagor would be ulti epic by now if he survived
Why? If the Snarl is not powerful enough to kill him, he probably won't gain much experience from fighting it. If the Snarl is powerful enough to kill him, then it kills him. Either way, he is unlikely to have gotten farther than low-epic.

[orrion]

Kraagor would be ulti epic by now if he survived

By doing what? One fight with the Snarl wouldn't be likely to grant him several levels, and there's no evidence that anything else exists in the rift world that would grant him experience.

[Snails]

I am very fond of the He's Alive hypothesis, but I am not a fan of building silly stuff on top on the already unlikely. To be alive, Kraagor must have achieved some kind of peace treaty with the Snarl through negotiation or similar. It is much easier to negotiate if you are capable of surviving ten rounds while toe-to-toe with the Snarl -- that is within the realm of plausible based on what we know.

Yeah, that encounter would probably earn K a level. But that is it. What "challenge" did he face in the mean time?

[orrion]

I am very fond of the He's Alive hypothesis, but I am not a fan of building silly stuff on top on the already unlikely. To be alive, Kraagor must have achieved some kind of peace treaty with the Snarl through negotiation or similar.

How do you negotiate with something that hasn't shown itself capable of speaking or even thinking? Moreover, what evidence is there that Kraagor is capable of such negotiations?



It is much easier to negotiate if you are capable of surviving ten rounds while toe-to-toe with the Snarl -- that is within the realm of plausible based on what we know.

I'm not even sure it's plausible that he survived any combat.

[Snails]

How do you negotiate with something that hasn't shown itself capable of speaking or even thinking? Moreover, what evidence is there that Kraagor is capable of such negotiations?

If the Snarl was capable of negotiation, we would not know it because everything it previously met was busy dying very quickly. The Eastern gods were falling at a rate of 2+ per round.

Certainly the Dark One/Redcloak seems to be working on the assumption the Snarl is a mindless killing machine -- so they appear to agree with you. That is a good guess, based on the known facts. It does not have to be true, however.


I'm not even sure it's plausible that he survived any combat.

Based on the possible "loopholes" in the Scribble Tale, Kraagor may well be the toughest person the Snarl ever encountered. That does not automatically mean anything. But it opens room for possibilities.

[orrion]

If the Snarl was capable of negotiation, we would not know it because everything it previously met was busy dying very quickly. The Eastern gods were falling at a rate of 2+ per round.

Certainly the Dark One/Redcloak seems to be working on the assumption the Snarl is a mindless killing machine -- so they appear to agree with you. That is a good guess, based on the known facts. It does not have to be true, however.

Can you give me a plausible reason why the Snarl would be interested in negotiation, even if it could? Or, hell, why Kraagor would be.



Based on the possible "loopholes" in the Scribble Tale, Kraagor may well be the toughest person the Snarl ever encountered. That does not automatically mean anything. But it opens room for possibilities.

I'm of the opinion that the ability to kill 2 gods in a round means a low epic dwarf barbarian wouldn't stand much of a chance. Why would the Snarl even notice - or care - if it took 30 rounds to kill Kraagor? Or 500? Unless Kraagor is capable of outright killing the Snarl then the Snarl really doesn't have anything to lose and nothing better to be doing.

[Snails]

Can you give me a plausible reason why the Snarl would be interested in negotiation, even if it could? Or, hell, why Kraagor would be.

I'm of the opinion that the ability to kill 2 gods in a round means a low epic dwarf barbarian wouldn't stand much of a chance. Why would the Snarl even notice - or care - if it took 30 rounds to kill Kraagor? Or 500? Unless Kraagor is capable of outright killing the Snarl then the Snarl really doesn't have anything to lose and nothing better to be doing.

We agree that the Snarl would eventually kill Kraagor, if the Snarl were determined. Whether it takes 30 rounds or 500 rounds is not the important issue.

As for the proposed reason for negotiating...because the Snarl is bored. Being cooped up in the prison for so long finally made the Snarl open to new experiences. Trading blows with Kraagor is the most fun the Snarl has had since gutting Zeus centuries ago, and he thinks it would be more fun to somehow have Kraagor around for a bit longer than go straight for the gutting and be all alone in prison again. String enough a-bit-longer's together, and you might have negotiation beginning.

How did Ann Darrow get not eaten by King Kong? By being interesting.

[David Argall]

How did Ann Darrow get not eaten by King Kong? By being interesting.
She was a toy. But we have no information suggesting the Snarl wants a toy.
Now I deem the survival of the dwarf to be most unlikely, but if we do want him to live, maybe we can try an Androcles and the lion. For whatever reason the party wasn't wiped right away, Kraagor survives for a round or two and notices a tangle/spot that looks very painful/"thorn". Deciding that no opponent of his can have any excuse for losing/should suffer that much anyway... he "pulls out the thorn"/untangles this part of the Snarl. This makes the Snarl so friendly/confused that he does not attack and Kraagor is not killed.

[orrion]

She was a toy. But we have no information suggesting the Snarl wants a toy.
Now I deem the survival of the dwarf to be most unlikely, but if we do want him to live, maybe we can try an Androcles and the lion. For whatever reason the party wasn't wiped right away, Kraagor survives for a round or two and notices a tangle/spot that looks very painful/"thorn". Deciding that no opponent of his can have any excuse for losing/should suffer that much anyway... he "pulls out the thorn"/untangles this part of the Snarl. This makes the Snarl so friendly/confused that he does not attack and Kraagor is not killed.

There isn't any more information about the Snarl having thorns than there is information about him wanting a toy, so if you're dismissing the one why are you proposing the other?

[Sir_Dr_D]

I do think it is possible that Kragaar may enter the story yet. But I do not think he is physically alive in the snarl world. I see him as being a snarl equivalent of being turned to stone (in a paralyzed comatose state or something). He can get revived and rescued.

[David Argall]

There isn't any more information about the Snarl having thorns than there is information about him wanting a toy,
Actually there is. The very fact the Snarl acted means it was "suffering" from a "thorn". But a "toy" is a "cure" for only certain types of "thorns" and will be absent from a large number of thorn cases.



so if you're dismissing the one why are you proposing the other?
I'm not really. I stated up front that I don't think either is at all likely. My statement falls in the same category as "don't drink booze, but if you are so foolish, scotch is better [or less harmful] than bourbon." [& if anyone is interested, I have drank neither and have no serious idea if that is true or not].

[orrion]

Actually there is. The very fact the Snarl acted means it was "suffering" from a "thorn". But a "toy" is a "cure" for only certain types of "thorns" and will be absent from a large number of thorn cases.

Alternatively, it means nothing of the kind.



I'm not really. I stated up front that I don't think either is at all likely. My statement falls in the same category as "don't drink booze, but if you are so foolish, scotch is better [or less harmful] than bourbon." [& if anyone is interested, I have drank neither and have no serious idea if that is true or not].

Right, which means you aren't basing your statement on any evidence. That's the point.

[Sunken Valley]

Kraagor is the only Scribble who can deliver exposition.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Kraagor is the only Scribble who can deliver exposition.
Why? Couldn't Serini do the same?

[Haar]

I doubt Kraagor would be alive, unless there is a reason for him to be alive. Eg Helping to resolve the threat of the Snarl or at least telling the OotS how to end it.

It would seem kind of lame to have him survive for so long and then a "k bye" type scenario. Maybe I've just been playing too many games where "Everything happens for a reason".

[Cikomyr]

I doubt Kraagor would be alive, unless there is a reason for him to be alive. Eg Helping to resolve the threat of the Snarl or at least telling the OotS how to end it.

It would seem kind of lame to have him survive for so long and then a "k bye" type scenario. Maybe I've just been playing too many games where "Everything happens for a reason".

... duh.

I am sorry to answer like that, but come on. Assuming that my hypothesis is correct, and that Kraagor has been alive all along, it's kind of obvious that he will be critical to the overall plot.

Ya know, just like Elan's father appearing is critical to the overall plot, even if it's as a new faction to have to deal with.

[Haar]

... duh.

I am sorry to answer like that, but come on. Assuming that my hypothesis is correct, and that Kraagor has been alive all along, it's kind of obvious that he will be critical to the overall plot.

Ya know, just like Elan's father appearing is critical to the overall plot, even if it's as a new faction to have to deal with.

With the unpredictable nature I've seen this comic take, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is found, alive, and immediately offed to something like the last few panels parody here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html).

We won't know till it happens. /shrug

[CaDzilla]

Wait, was Kraagor killed by the spell or the Snarl?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

In #276, we see Soon telling Dorukan to cast the spell, overruling Lirian's protests that Kraagor and Soon need to be out of range, and then the next panel shows a statue of Kraagor.To me, this implies that Dorukan cast his spell, which sealed the rift but had the nasty side-affect of also killing Kraagor

[Everyl]

In #276, we see Soon telling Dorukan to cast the spell, overruling Lirian's protests that Kraagor and Soon need to be out of range, and then the next panel shows a statue of Kraagor.To me, this implies that Dorukan cast his spell, which sealed the rift but had the nasty side-affect of also killing Kraagor

If they just killed Kraagor, they could have raised him. The only reasons they wouldn't be able to raise him would be if he was killed by the Snarl, or if he's actually still alive. Both of those possibilities would imply that he was sealed inside the Rift.

Also, notice that there's no sign of a burial at the Kraagor memorial statue. If he'd died outside the Rift, even if he was skewered by the Snarl before the rift was sealed, they would have had remains to bury.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If they just killed Kraagor, they could have raised him. The only reasons they wouldn't be able to raise him would be if he was killed by the Snarl, or if he's actually still alive. Both of those possibilities would imply that he was sealed inside the Rift.

Also, notice that there's no sign of a burial at the Kraagor memorial statue. If he'd died outside the Rift, even if he was skewered by the Snarl before the rift was sealed, they would have had remains to bury.
Another reason why they wouldn't be able to raise him would be if the spell destroyed him, sort of in the same way that Disintegrate destroys people, but not even leaving ashes behind. This also explains the lack of a burial.

Also, if the spell wouldn't prevent them from getting Soon or Kraagor back, why does Lirian insist that the spell is not cast until they are out of the way?

[Everyl]

Another reason why they wouldn't be able to raise him would be if the spell destroyed him, sort of in the same way that Disintegrate destroys people, but not even leaving ashes behind. This also explains the lack of a burial.

Also, if the spell wouldn't prevent them from getting Soon or Kraagor back, why does Lirian insist that the spell is not cast until they are out of the way?

It's possible that the spell to seal the rift also has a side effect of absolutely obliterating anything and anyone nearby without any hope of resurrection. There's nothing to imply this besides the fact that they didn't raise Kraagor, though. Occam's razor suggests that the rift-sealing spell got Kraagor killed by sealing the rift, not by an unseen, off-panel AoE superdisintegrate effect. Occam's razor isn't always right, especially when presented with incomplete information, but I feel pretty comfortable interpreting that comic as saying that Kraagor was sealed in the rift, not superdisintegrated as a side-effect of the sealing of the rift.

I would speculate that the rift-sealing spell pulls anything nearby into the rift before sealing it, so as to ensure that the Snarl remains entirely on the far side of it from the casters. That would be a logical extension of the stated function of the spell, and would explain why it is important for people to not be standing too close to the Rift when it's cast. It also leads to Kraagor being sealed in, which explains why the rest of the OotScribble considers him to be dead and beyond resurrection without leaving remains behind.

And I'm not sure why you say that I said that the spell wouldn't prevent them from getting Kraagor back. I said that they sealed him in with the Snarl. In that scenario, he's either dead and soul-devoured by the Snarl, or he's alive against all odds and they have no way of knowing that they might be able to rescue him by reopening the prison of a god-killing abomination.

[Lombard]

Maybe there's no fish in the ocean because K-dude ate them all

[Cikomyr]

Wait, was Kraagor killed by the spell or the Snarl?

The entire point of my thread was to point out the ambiguity of the facts we've witnessed.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's possible that the spell to seal the rift also has a side effect of absolutely obliterating anything and anyone nearby without any hope of resurrection. There's nothing to imply this besides the fact that they didn't raise Kraagor, though. Occam's razor suggests that the rift-sealing spell got Kraagor killed by sealing the rift, not by an unseen, off-panel AoE superdisintegrate effect. Occam's razor isn't always right, especially when presented with incomplete information, but I feel pretty comfortable interpreting that comic as saying that Kraagor was sealed in the rift, not superdisintegrated as a side-effect of the sealing of the rift.

I would speculate that the rift-sealing spell pulls anything nearby into the rift before sealing it, so as to ensure that the Snarl remains entirely on the far side of it from the casters. That would be a logical extension of the stated function of the spell, and would explain why it is important for people to not be standing too close to the Rift when it's cast. It also leads to Kraagor being sealed in, which explains why the rest of the OotScribble considers him to be dead and beyond resurrection without leaving remains behind.

And I'm not sure why you say that I said that the spell wouldn't prevent them from getting Kraagor back. I said that they sealed him in with the Snarl. In that scenario, he's either dead and soul-devoured by the Snarl, or he's alive against all odds and they have no way of knowing that they might be able to rescue him by reopening the prison of a god-killing abomination.

Why wasn't Soon also trapped in the rift? According to Lirian, he also wasn't clear yet.

Edit: also, I think that we should probably wait until we have more information until we make a judgement. We know that Shojo's story was missing information, after all. Despite the fact that I have been using the Crayons of Time strip as evidence, I think it should also be considered that they are not entirely accurate.

[orrion]

Why wasn't Soon also trapped in the rift? According to Lirian, he also wasn't clear yet.

Edit: also, I think that we should probably wait until we have more information until we make a judgement. We know that Shojo's story was missing information, after all. Despite the fact that I have been using the Crayons of Time strip as evidence, I think it should also be considered that they are not entirely accurate.

Might be as simple as "Soon moved."

While it's true we don't know the whole story yet I still see no reason to doubt that Kraagor is deader than dead. If he was just dead they would have raised him (Soon presumably wasn't able to raise his wife, either) and if they had questions about whether he was alive they would have cast every spell possible to find him.

[Kish]

Might be as simple as "Soon moved."
Indeed; better Reflex save? Not being Enraged and thus being able to choose to disengage and pull back?

[Cikomyr]

Indeed; better Reflex save? Not being Enraged and thus being able to choose to disengage and pull back?

A raging barbarian can't retreat, eh?

[orrion]

A raging barbarian can't retreat, eh?

Heck, maybe the Snarl stabbed him when he tried.


The Scribble had the means and the power to correct the situation (and I see everyone but Soon at least attempting those means) if Kraagor was MIA or merely dead and able to be raised somehow.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Okay, you have successfully changed my mind. I can now see the Snarl being what killed Kraagor.

I still think that his chances of survival are low, but that's not what the original question I replied to asked, so it's not really relevant here.

[Cikomyr]

Okay, you have successfully changed my mind. I can now see the Snarl being what killed Kraagor.

I still think that his chances of survival are low, but that's not what the original question I replied to asked, so it's not really relevant here.

No. This can't be it. Otherwise, why would everyone blame Soon for Kraagor's death? If Kraagor's "sacrifice" was put solely on Soon's shoulders, it cannot be just because of a normal skirmish with the Snarl.

It had to be a side-effect of the spell, because Soon pushed for its reckless casting.

[orrion]

No. This can't be it. Otherwise, why would everyone blame Soon for Kraagor's death? If Kraagor's "sacrifice" was put solely on Soon's shoulders, it cannot be just because of a normal skirmish with the Snarl.

It had to be a side-effect of the spell, because Soon pushed for its reckless casting.

They're angry at Soon because he put sealing the rift (and avenging his wife) ahead of Kraagor's life, and Girard at least suspected that he planned to wipe out remembrance of the rifts and thus of Kraagor. Girard also called Soon a coward before blowing his trap in the desert, which may indicate that Soon ditched Kraagor to get out of the spell's range or something similar.

Soon is in turn angry because Dorukan and Girard didn't have the same "at all costs" mentality regarding the rifts.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No. This can't be it. Otherwise, why would everyone blame Soon for Kraagor's death? If Kraagor's "sacrifice" was put solely on Soon's shoulders, it cannot be just because of a normal skirmish with the Snarl.

It had to be a side-effect of the spell, because Soon pushed for its reckless casting.
It is a side effect the spell is what trapped Kraagor in the same world as the Snarl. The Snarl is what did the killing, but Soon was responsible for moving him there. It is also possible that they were mad at him not specifically for killing Kraagor, but because he clearly didn't care much what happened to him, so long as the Rift was sealed

Or, as other people suggested, it could be that the rest of the Order of the Scribble is upset because Soon retreated and abandoned Kraagor.

[Kish]

No. This can't be it. Otherwise, why would everyone blame Soon for Kraagor's death? If Kraagor's "sacrifice" was put solely on Soon's shoulders, it cannot be just because of a normal skirmish with the Snarl.

It had to be a side-effect of the spell, because Soon pushed for its reckless casting.
Really? Because if I was looking at it in terms of, "We need to find a way it makes sense for everyone else to blame Kraagor's death solely on Soon," I'd cross "it was a side-effect of the spell" right off; Soon did not create or cast the spell, after all, and given the twin premises "everyone else was perfectly rational" and "everyone else was blaming Soon," it makes little sense that no one even considered blaming Dorukan or Lirian.

[Onyavar]

the more i think about it though the more i like him somehow surviving

makes me think of a really crazy theory

I like the idea too. Only that my spin of the theory is that Kraagor is not imprisoned in Riftworld, but magically timefrozen and stuck in the actual Gate. (Hence: Kraagor's Gate and not Serini's Gate)

He might even look out in horror until the Gate is smashed to bits, and Kraagor is freed. That could also be the ultimate twist on Xykon and Redcloak - maybe it isn't possible to speak the Dark One's ritual on the Gate while Kraagor is still in the equation?

That would also explain how the Scribble Order broke apart so violently: Rescuing Kraagor from his Gate would mean facing the god-killing horror again, and they blamed each other:
Soon did order to seal him inside.
Dorukan+Lirian actually did the deed.
Girard+Serini were Kraagor's best friends and shocked of the outcome, but didn't dare rescue either, especially without Dorukan and Lirian to rebuild the gate.

As we look at how the Scribbles broke apart in the 027x-es, we can see how those three factions are there in the aftermath struggle, and as far as we know, Dorukan and Lirian weren't on speaking terms with Girard and Serini after they separated.

[Cikomyr]

They're angry at Soon because he put sealing the rift (and avenging his wife) ahead of Kraagor's life, and Girard at least suspected that he planned to wipe out remembrance of the rifts and thus of Kraagor. Girard also called Soon a coward before blowing his trap in the desert, which may indicate that Soon ditched Kraagor to get out of the spell's range or something similar.

Soon is in turn angry because Dorukan and Girard didn't have the same "at all costs" mentality regarding the rifts.

So your argument is that the resentment against Soon is based more on the strategic imperatives (the defeat of the Snarl) against more tactical circumstances (whether or not Soon pushed for the spell to be cast while Kraagor and him were clear or not).

I don't see it. Everybody understood the stakes; it has been clearly established that the OotScribe knew that the fate of the world was at stake. Sealing the rifts were a priority, regardless of Soon's personal stake. I still think the resentment had more to do with how they went at it rather than why.

The only exception I would make to that argument is if the OotScribe learned about RiftWorld, and the non-inherent homicidal nature of the Snarl, and they then started to question whether or not sealing the Rifts would be a good thing in the end; with Soon's zeal pushed for aggressive actions against the Snarl.

But then, that would mean the OotScribe knew a lot more than what has been implied.


It is a side effect the spell is what trapped Kraagor in the same world as the Snarl. The Snarl is what did the killing, but Soon was responsible for moving him there. It is also possible that they were mad at him not specifically for killing Kraagor, but because he clearly didn't care much what happened to him, so long as the Rift was sealed

Or, as other people suggested, it could be that the rest of the Order of the Scribble is upset because Soon retreated and abandoned Kraagor.

Maybe Soon just made his saving throw, while Kraagor failed it? +Cha bonus to saves is a great way to make sure you will be fine :smallbiggrin:

But seriously tho. The entire point of the argument came from the fact that RiftWorld isn't just a massive Snarldimension where everything is destroyed. Therefore, in the event that the spell cast did trapped Kraagor on the other side rather than killing him outright, maybe the Snarl left Kraagor, for some reason? Because the Snarl either is unable or unwilling to destroy the world in the Rifts.


Really? Because if I was looking at it in terms of, "We need to find a way it makes sense for everyone else to blame Kraagor's death solely on Soon," I'd cross "it was a side-effect of the spell" right off; Soon did not create or cast the spell, after all, and given the twin premises "everyone else was perfectly rational" and "everyone else was blaming Soon," it makes little sense that no one even considered blaming Dorukan or Lirian.

Oh, disagreed so much. The spells were a necessity, and the Rifts HAD to be sealed, no matter what. You don't blame the engineer making the explosives, you blame the man who orders its unsafe detonation.

[Kish]

Premise 1: "The spells were a necessity."

Premise 2: "The rifts had to be sealed, no matter what."

Conclusion: Ordering the spells cast and the rifts sealed = doing something horrible.

I officially give up.

[Keltest]

Premise 1: "The spells were a necessity."

Premise 2: "The rifts had to be sealed, no matter what."

Conclusion: Ordering the spells cast and the rifts sealed = doing something horrible.

I officially give up.

Like any dangerous project, mismanagement can cause bad things to happen. It wasn't the fact that he ordered the spell cast, it was the fact that he ordered it cast in a condition that was unsafe for Kraagor. Its the equivalent of ordering explosives to be detonated before the team that set them was safely out of the blast zone.

[Cikomyr]

Premise 1: "The spells were a necessity."

Premise 2: "The rifts had to be sealed, no matter what."

Conclusion: Ordering the spells cast and the rifts sealed = doing something horrible.

I officially give up.

What Keltest said.

Understanding the personal responsibility of a screw up is not rocket science. Can't you grasp this very basic concept?

[orrion]

What Keltest said.

Understanding the personal responsibility of a screw up is not rocket science. Can't you grasp this very basic concept?

So why don't Dorukan and Lirian carry that personal responsibility? The idea that the two of them were just dumb morons doing whatever Soon told them to do is.. well, pretty silly.

[Kish]

Because they're not paladins. Soon is solely responsible for everything bad everyone in the group did, and of course does not deserve credit for good things the group did. The group splitting apart was not a multi-sided conflict but strictly a four vs. one conflict driven by Soon's sheer horribleness, and the rest of the group would have functioned perfectly and harmoniously without Soon; even without knowledge of exactly what happened to Kraagor, it's clear that Soon as good as outright murdered him.

Very basic concept; grasping it is not rocket science.

[Keltest]

So why don't Dorukan and Lirian carry that personal responsibility? The idea that the two of them were just dumb morons doing whatever Soon told them to do is.. well, pretty silly.

Because he was the leader. "Just following orders" is not normally a very good excuse, but in this case Soon made the call that his and Kraagor's lives were not worth the risk of the snarl getting out. Girard already had a beef with Soon and paladins in general and tensions were high.

It was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. The dam broke, and all the unspoken grievances suddenly came pouring out all at one.

[orrion]

Because he was the leader. "Just following orders" is not normally a very good excuse, but in this case Soon made the call that his and Kraagor's lives were not worth the risk of the snarl getting out. Girard already had a beef with Soon and paladins in general and tensions were high.

It was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. The dam broke, and all the unspoken grievances suddenly came pouring out all at one.

I'd argue that Soon wasn't at risk, which is a large part of the conflict. "Ok, I'm clear, cast it. What, him? Screw that, cast the spell." This said to the others that they were expendable, but that Soon didn't consider himself expendable.

[Keltest]

I'd argue that Soon wasn't at risk, which is a large part of the conflict. "Ok, I'm clear, cast it. What, him? Screw that, cast the spell." This said to the others that they were expendable, but that Soon didn't consider himself expendable.

From what we know, Soon was at risk. Lirian said "you" while speaking to Soon. not "Kraagor isn't clear", "You aren't clear." It is of course possible he moved while Kraagor did not, but there is no direct in-comic evidence to support this.

[Loreweaver15]

From what we know, Soon was at risk. Lirian said "you" while speaking to Soon. not "Kraagor isn't clear", "You aren't clear." It is of course possible he moved while Kraagor did not, but there is no direct in-comic evidence to support this.

This is how I read it as well. Girard was looking for an excuse to attack Soon, while Dorukan was wracked with guilt.

[David Argall]

Because they're not paladins. Soon is solely responsible for everything bad everyone in the group did, and of course does not deserve credit for good things the group did. The group splitting apart was not a multi-sided conflict but strictly a four vs. one conflict driven by Soon's sheer horribleness, and the rest of the group would have functioned perfectly and harmoniously without Soon; even without knowledge of exactly what happened to Kraagor, it's clear that Soon as good as outright murdered him.

Very basic concept; grasping it is not rocket science.

Any time A & B are in a dangerous situation, and A survives, but B doesn't, friends of B will want to know why, and natural, if not logical, to conclude A was as fault whether he was or not. We have no evidence here that Soon was, or was not, at fault in any way. [& we have good reason to assume all fault is the writer's, who wanted some excuse for why each gate only had one defender.]

[Cikomyr]

So why don't Dorukan and Lirian carry that personal responsibility? The idea that the two of them were just dumb morons doing whatever Soon told them to do is.. well, pretty silly.

What has been said, basically. You are usually supposed to follow the orders of your superior, especially in a tight situation where urgency is the essence. It's all right to question your orders when you have the time and leisure to consider them in context, but if your sarge/captain tells you to "hit the ground" or "fire", you do it.

It's not a blanket statement that someone following orders should be indemnised of everything, but in that case Soon was insistent that Dorukan/Lilian cast the spell. Dorukan/Lilian probably assumed that Soon saw/knew something that they didn't.

Maybe Soon was right. Maybe there was a good reason for sealing the rift without leaving time for Soon and Kraagor to get out, and he never could convinced the rest of the party that it was the right thing. Soon took responsibility for his decision, whether it was a good or a bad one. Girard clearly believes it was a bad one.

The decision was made by Soon. But because someone else pulled the trigger doesn't mean Soon wasn't the man responsible for the tragedy that followed.

And Kish, if you cannot have a civil discussion without being irrationally snippy, don't bother commenting. You don't bring anything to the discussion by making your irrational comments.

[orrion]

Any time A & B are in a dangerous situation, and A survives, but B doesn't, friends of B will want to know why, and natural, if not logical, to conclude A was as fault whether he was or not. We have no evidence here that Soon was, or was not, at fault in any way. [& we have good reason to assume all fault is the writer's, who wanted some excuse for why each gate only had one defender.]

Sure we do. He called for the casting of a dangerous spell when his people were still in range.

He's certainly not the only one at fault, but he's not blameless either. Besides, his attitude after the fact would be enough to be angry at him.




The decision was made by Soon. But because someone else pulled the trigger doesn't mean Soon wasn't the man responsible for the tragedy that followed.

That doesn't mean the guy pulling the trigger is blameless. Especially since Dorukan and Lirian were the ones who researched the spell(s) and likely knew the applications and dangers better than Soon did.



And Kish, if you cannot have a civil discussion without being irrationally snippy, don't bother commenting. You don't bring anything to the discussion by making your irrational comments.

Hypocrite much? Kish only fired back at you what you said to him. If you don't want return fire, don't say things like "Can't you grasp this simple concept?"

[Loreweaver15]

It also should be stressed that Soon himself was in range when he ordered the spell to be cast, so while it may have been a bad call, it was neither cowardice nor hypocrisy.

[Cikomyr]

That doesn't mean the guy pulling the trigger is blameless. Especially since Dorukan and Lirian were the ones who researched the spell(s) and likely knew the applications and dangers better than Soon did.

but in situation where someone yells at you to pull the trigger despite obvious danger, you should usually assume they know what they are talking about.

I mean, I understand what you are trying to say; don't get me wrong. What I personally mean is that Dorukan shouldn't be the one with the responsibility to make ALL the calls just because he's the caster.



Hypocrite much? Kish only fired back at you what you said to him. If you don't want return fire, don't say things like "Can't you grasp this simple concept?"

I was talking about his original post, the one where he officially gave up.

[Loreweaver15]

but in situation where someone yells at you to pull the trigger despite obvious danger, you should usually assume they know what they are talking about.

I mean, I understand what you are trying to say; don't get me wrong. What I personally mean is that Dorukan shouldn't be the one with the responsibility to make ALL the calls just because he's the caster.

Doesn't fly. That he doesn't have all the responsibility doesn't change that he is partially responsible, which I've already pointed out may have informed his anger. The person who pulls the trigger has just as much to do with it as the person who ordered the trigger pulled.

In the end, though, we don't yet know what else was going on there, whether it was justified or not, who was to blame--if anyone. It may have just been Soon, Girard, and Dorukan's differences finally boiling over.

[Cikomyr]

Doesn't fly. That he doesn't have all the responsibility doesn't change that he is partially responsible, which I've already pointed out may have informed his anger. The person who pulls the trigger has just as much to do with it as the person who ordered the trigger pulled.

In the end, though, we don't yet know what else was going on there, whether it was justified or not, who was to blame--if anyone. It may have just been Soon, Girard, and Dorukan's differences finally boiling over.

There's the possibility tat Girard's hate of Soon is purely based on what he percieves to be hypocrisy and his projection of what paladins are. But I still take that it's based on him believing Soon is responsible for Kraagor's loss.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Question: is what the Order heard only Shojo's narration, or did he describe the scenes in question to them and it was represented as a visual?

Also, if the first one is the correct answer, are those visuals how Shojo imagined things went, or are they from some account written by Soon?

[Keltest]

Question: is what the Order heard only Shojo's narration, or did he describe the scenes in question to them and it was represented as a visual?

Also, if the first one is the correct answer, are those visuals how Shojo imagined things went, or are they from some account written by Soon?

The order only knows what they heard from Shojo (and Girard's taunts, which explained nothing they didn't know), which came from Soon. Either Soon, Shojo, or Shojo's father must have had a divine informant at some point, because otherwise they would not know about the first world.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

All right. Would you then say that it is likely that the Crayons of Time strips are not 100% accurate or complete? I ask this because I think that the images that we see in those strips are how Shojo imagined those events to go, and are not a primary source.

[Keltest]

All right. Would you then say that it is likely that the Crayons of Time strips are not 100% accurate or complete? I ask this because I think that the images that we see in those strips are how Shojo imagined those events to go, and are not a primary source.

id say to take everything said, especially the parts about the first world, with a grain or three of salt. While I doubt that there was any significant bias in the telling of the group mentality, its possible that Soon did have more to do with Kraagor's death than was shown, and Soon simply did not consider that part particularly relevant to the story and/or he legitimately was in denial about it. However, until shown otherwise I will continue to trust the recounting of the scribble's adventure as accurate.

[Kish]

The crayon strips are, by Word of the Author, claims being made by the speaker, not objective renderings of events like the stick figure strips.

Soon presumably related the events as he knew them with scrupulous accuracy to be recorded; Shojo regularly lied like a cheap rug but is fairly unlikely to have lied in obvious ways in front of his paladins about a story they already knew.

[Loreweaver15]

Considering Shojo was one of the few people in the universe we know to have been actively working towards protecting the Gates and was capital-G Good, it's also unlikely that he would have passed on false information.

[Snails]

I expect the Crayons tale to be 100% accurate. "Accurate" does not preclude certain important points be misleading or incomplete. That is why I like threads like this one -- it is misunderstanding without deception.

Redcloak's understanding seems to jibe very well with Shojo's (even if they may be mistaken about some things). If there were actual purposeful deception going on, it would be sloppy writing to not drop hints by now. The Giant has planned this out carefully, and he has consistently foreshadowed this kind of twist.

[Keltest]

Considering Shojo was one of the few people in the universe we know to have been actively working towards protecting the Gates and was capital-G Good, it's also unlikely that he would have passed on false information.

Perhaps not deliberately, but you do have to remember that he heard it from his father, who heard it from Soon. And at least one of them had to have heard part of it from the Gods themselves. So its 3rd or 4th hand information. A lot can get lost in that time.

[Loreweaver15]

Perhaps not deliberately, but you do have to remember that he heard it from his father, who heard it from Soon. And at least one of them had to have heard part of it from the Gods themselves. So its 3rd or 4th hand information. A lot can get lost in that time.

Sorry, just realized I left out the word "deliberately".

[orrion]

but in situation where someone yells at you to pull the trigger despite obvious danger, you should usually assume they know what they are talking about.

I mean, I understand what you are trying to say; don't get me wrong. What I personally mean is that Dorukan shouldn't be the one with the responsibility to make ALL the calls just because he's the caster.

"Usually." That means there are exceptions - and I'd call an instance where you're telling 2 people to cast a spell that they researched and you didn't qualifies as an exception.

I never said he has the responsibility to make all the calls. I'm saying he shares responsibility on calls that involve his area of expertise. I wouldn't be surprised if Dorukan's anger there was partly motivated by his own guilt, and exacerbated by Soon appearing to feel none of it.

[Keltest]

"Usually." That means there are exceptions - and I'd call an instance where you're telling 2 people to cast a spell that they researched and you didn't qualifies as an exception.

I never said he has the responsibility to make all the calls. I'm saying he shares responsibility on calls that involve his area of expertise. I wouldn't be surprised if Dorukan's anger there was partly motivated by his own guilt, and exacerbated by Soon appearing to feel none of it.

How does it being his area of expertise have any relevant to his decision to follow Soon's orders? Quite obviously they did NOT want to cast it, and would not have had soon not given the order. So unless youre saying that he knew without a doubt that Kraagor could have been saved without any repercussions from the actions necessary to do it, the fact that he made the spell doesn't have much to do with his ability to judge the situation.

Put another way, being involved in the development of a weapon does not automatically impart knowledge of how best to use it, or of any of the other factors in its use.

[David Argall]

Sure we do. He called for the casting of a dangerous spell when his people were still in range.
So? Was that a good or bad call? We know it resulted in the Rift being sealed, which was the objective. And we would have to say this was in the range of acceptable losses. [Indeed, the death of the entire party in the process of sealing the gate would likely qualify.] But we can't determine on the evidence at hand whether Soon made the right decision.
Maybe Soon knew the front line was crumbling, and that the spell had to be cast right away or disaster. Maybe he wanted it cast immediately for reasons of loss of nerve or excessive courage. Maybe... The point would be that we can't accurately assign blame.



He's certainly not the only one at fault, but he's not blameless either.
He, &/or any of the others, can be blameless, or completely at fault, without violating the known facts.



Besides, his attitude after the fact would be enough to be angry at him.

Whether or not he was a jerk does not tell us whether or not he was right in ordering the spell.

[Onyavar]

So? Was that a good or bad call?

[...] The point would be that we can't accurately assign blame.


Well, the Scribble broke apart over this.

Girard said it was a bad call and irrefutably assigned the blame. While Soon insisted it was a good call and refused to take the blame. To judge correctly, you needed to have been there. Also, alignment differences and backstory.

[orrion]

So? Was that a good or bad call? We know it resulted in the Rift being sealed, which was the objective. And we would have to say this was in the range of acceptable losses. [Indeed, the death of the entire party in the process of sealing the gate would likely qualify.] But we can't determine on the evidence at hand whether Soon made the right decision.
Maybe Soon knew the front line was crumbling, and that the spell had to be cast right away or disaster. Maybe he wanted it cast immediately for reasons of loss of nerve or excessive courage. Maybe... The point would be that we can't accurately assign blame.

We can infer blame. How accurate it is doesn't really matter; it's as accurate as possible given what we know.

If your point is that you think the conversation is pointless, then stop participating.



He, &/or any of the others, can be blameless, or completely at fault, without violating the known facts.

I'm going to say Kraagor couldn't be completely at fault.



Whether or not he was a jerk does not tell us whether or not he was right in ordering the spell.

Since I wasn't arguing whether he was right or wrong, that's irrelevant.

[Cikomyr]

But the point is: If Kraagor had merely been killed by the Snarl, as many assume, why would Girard blame Soon over it?

It's not like Soon alone is to blame for the Scribes taking over this Main Quest. They all signed up and participated for their own reason, and obviously understood the stakes. Why would Girard blame Soon, unless there was a specific action Soon did that would have led to Kraagor's demise?

If Soon actually pushed Kraagor into the Snarl's path, I might understand. But I somehow doubt it was in Soon's character. Whatever moral failures he had, he still was a good man.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If Soon ordered the casting of the spell that trapped Kraagor in the rift, and then the Snarl killed him, Soon would be to blame for ordering the casting of the spell.

[Cikomyr]

If Soon ordered the casting of the spell that trapped Kraagor in the rift, and then the Snarl killed him, Soon would be to blame for ordering the casting of the spell.

Why assume "and then the Snarl killed him"?

People keep bringing it up. It's an assumption that everybody is making, but there's no indication that it happened.

[Keltest]

Why assume "and then the Snarl killed him"?

People keep bringing it up. It's an assumption that everybody is making, but there's no indication that it happened.

Based on everything we know of the snarl, until shown otherwise its a safe bet.

[Cikomyr]

Based on everything we know of the snarl, until shown otherwise its a safe bet.

Based on everything we know of the snarl, there shouldn't be a RiftWorld either.

But there it is.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Why assume "and then the Snarl killed him"?

People keep bringing it up. It's an assumption that everybody is making, but there's no indication that it happened.

I find to be just as likely as the idea that the spell itself killed him. All we know for certain (assuming that the evidence we have is complete), is that Kraagor died or otherwise disapeared and that Soon was blamed for it.

[orrion]

I find to be just as likely as the idea that the spell itself killed him. All we know for certain (assuming that the evidence we have is complete), is that Kraagor died or otherwise disapeared and that Soon was blamed for it.

True, but in that case they should have been able to revive him. Just like if he was alive they should have been able to contact him. Unless he was unmade by the Snarl.


Based on everything we know of the snarl, there shouldn't be a RiftWorld either.

But there it is.

There wasn't a riftworld until it was shown in comic. Likewise, Kraagor is dead until it's shown he isn't.

[Cikomyr]

There wasn't a riftworld until it was shown in comic. Likewise, Kraagor is dead until it's shown he isn't.

The existence of Riftworld proves that there might be more than an Atrocious Death at the... (hands? tentacles?) of the Snarl on other side of the rift.

Which was my point since the beginning.

[David Argall]

We can infer blame. How accurate it is doesn't really matter; it's as accurate as possible given what we know.
Which is not very reliable given what little we know.



If your point is that you think the conversation is pointless, then stop participating.
Pointing out a conversation is pointless is a point.



I'm going to say Kraagor couldn't be completely at fault.
Actually he is a pretty good candidate. As a raging barbarian, refusing to retreat when he should is entirely what we expect of his character, and it is easy to imagine him charging forward even when ordered to retreat and Soon almost getting killed trying to rescue him. Now as the leader Soon would still have ultimate responsibility, but the blame would lie heavily with Kraagor. [He can't be completely at fault since he is mortal, but by mortal standards, it could be quite hard to assign much blame elsewhere.]




Why would Girard blame Soon, unless there was a specific action Soon did that would have led to Kraagor's demise?

One rather common reason might be that he simply liked Kraagor better. As I have said before, it is quite human to blame B for the death of A when one likes A better than B. Any actual sin by B can be completely optional.

[orrion]

The existence of Riftworld proves that there might be more than an Atrocious Death at the... (hands? tentacles?) of the Snarl on other side of the rift.

Which was my point since the beginning.

"Proves" is definitely the wrong word choice. The existence of riftworld proves nothing.


Which is not very reliable given what little we know.

You're kidding, right? I'm surprised the planet didn't start orbiting in the other direction when you typed that. This is coming from one of the guys who supported the "the rift made everyone forget Blackwing theory," (and other theories) that had much less reliable evidence than there is here and had flat out contradictions at times.



Pointing out a conversation is pointless is a point.

A useless one. Especially when the guy that does this is still here.



Actually he is a pretty good candidate. As a raging barbarian, refusing to retreat when he should is entirely what we expect of his character, and it is easy to imagine him charging forward even when ordered to retreat and Soon almost getting killed trying to rescue him. Now as the leader Soon would still have ultimate responsibility, but the blame would lie heavily with Kraagor. [He can't be completely at fault since he is mortal, but by mortal standards, it could be quite hard to assign much blame elsewhere.]

Since you brought up the reliability of evidence, what evidence do you have that Kraagor was raging at the time in question, or that raging stops someone from retreating, or that Kraagor was given the opportunity to retreat in the first place?

[David Argall]

A useless one. Especially when the guy that does this is still here.
Not necessarily. One utility would be to keep things calm. There is the tendency to yell "you're wrong!" and a reminder that the most you can say is "you may be wrong." takes the heat off.



Since you brought up the reliability of evidence, what evidence do you have that Kraagor was raging at the time in question, or that raging stops someone from retreating, or that Kraagor was given the opportunity to retreat in the first place?
The thesis was that Kraagor was not to blame for his own death. Accordingly, we do not need anything like proof beyond the shadow of a doubt that he was. We do not even need the preponderance of evidence. A mere possibility is quite enough to label the thesis unproved. And that we have.
A non-raging 3.5 barbarian is quite rare in combat. One can find tactical reasons not to be raging, but they are the exception, and likely very much so. So when we see the barbarian Kraagor in combat, the default assumption is that he is raging.
Rage stops someone from retreating? Almost definitional. "He went into a rage and attacked" is cliche. "He went into a rage and ran away" is "Huh?". One simply does not associate rage with retreat. Rather it is hurting the other fellow no matter how much it hurts you.
Did Kraagor have a chance to retreat? Unknown, which does not mean he didn't. Just that we don't know, and we can't prove that he was not responsible for his own death, again meaning the thesis is only unproven.

[Cikomyr]

"Proves" is definitely the wrong word choice. The existence of riftworld proves nothing.

That is logically, factually and evidently wrong.

The existence of Riftworld proves there is more to the tale that what's been told. Yes or no?

The existence of Riftworld proves that something may exist beyond the Rift. Yes or no?

[Keltest]

That is logically, factually and evidently wrong.

The existence of Riftworld proves there is more to the tale that what's been told. Yes or no?

The existence of Riftworld proves that something may exist beyond the Rift. Yes or no?

It changes the premise from "there is no possibility for this presented in-comic" to "this possibility is not supported by anything in-comic." For the purpose of our discussion, they are functionally identical.

It is equally possible that Roy was in fact possessed by a spirit of the upper planes when he was resurrected. There is also an equal amount of in-comic evidence for this.

Also, keep in mind that according to Shojo's account, the party was actively fighting the snarl when the rift was sealed (thus the order to seal it when they weren't clear). Unless you are suggesting that sealing all 5 rifts made the snarl passive (in which case, why was it not attacking out of Lirian's gate, or the Azure City rift when they were destroyed?) Kraagor would still have been fighting on the other side.

[Cikomyr]

Well, assuming a degree of intelligence on its part, I could understand the Snarl reacting to the last rift being sealed. I mean, it might see the seals as a threat to its existence? Or its capability?

[orrion]

The thesis was that Kraagor was not to blame for his own death. Accordingly, we do not need anything like proof beyond the shadow of a doubt that he was. We do not even need the preponderance of evidence. A mere possibility is quite enough to label the thesis unproved. And that we have.

Alternatively, the thesis was you asserting that anyone can be blameless or completely at fault. Accordingly, I don't need anything like proof beyond the shadow of the doubt that he was or wasn't. I do not even need a preponderance of evidence. A mere possibility is quite enough to label the thesis unproved. And that I have.



A non-raging 3.5 barbarian is quite rare in combat. One can find tactical reasons not to be raging, but they are the exception, and likely very much so. So when we see the barbarian Kraagor in combat, the default assumption is that he is raging.
Rage stops someone from retreating? Almost definitional. "He went into a rage and attacked" is cliche. "He went into a rage and ran away" is "Huh?". One simply does not associate rage with retreat. Rather it is hurting the other fellow no matter how much it hurts you.
Did Kraagor have a chance to retreat? Unknown, which does not mean he didn't. Just that we don't know, and we can't prove that he was not responsible for his own death, again meaning the thesis is only unproven.

According to the rules, a barbarian can stop raging whenever he wants, and it doesn't even say he has to spend an action to do so. Of course, he then can't run for the duration of the encounter (and they were fighting the Snarl) so he may have just stopped raging and then been unable to retreat.

Anyway, you were bringing up reliability of evidence, and you've effectively said you have none.


That is logically, factually and evidently wrong.

The existence of Riftworld proves there is more to the tale that what's been told. Yes or no?

The existence of Riftworld proves that something may exist beyond the Rift. Yes or no?

You're going beyond the scope of your original assertion there. The existence of something beyond the rift does not itself prove anything with regard to Kraagor, nor does it prove the Snarl doesn't kill things.

[Cikomyr]

You're going beyond the scope of your original assertion there. The existence of something beyond the rift does not itself prove anything with regard to Kraagor, nor does it prove the Snarl doesn't kill things.

But it does prove that the Snarl may have other course of action than "kill kill kill destroy kill". That's the point I am trying to make. What we thought to be gateways inside a pocket universe that is nothing but the prison of a homicidal eldritch abomination is... something more.

Therefore, our early assertion that Kraagor's only fate is to have been killed at the hands of the Snarl might be wrong. I am not saying that IT HAPPENED, my theory is that IT MIGHT HAVE happened.

[Hajutze]

Quick question ... - Are we even sure that time flows with the same speed in the "RiftWorld" ?

[Kish]

Any statement about the "Riftworld," other than, "Yep, there really is a Snarl in it," is purely speculative at this point, unless it comes from Rich.

[Onyavar]

Any statement about the "Riftworld," other than, "Yep, there really is a Snarl in it," is purely speculative at this point, unless it comes from Rich.

Riftworld is a globe.

Riftworld has an atmosphere.

Riftworld has an ocean which is suspiciously lacking fish.

But other than that... yeah.
We can't even definitely assume that this tentacle things belonged to an entity named Snarl, and we know nothing about this alleged entities' background, other than what the Gods have revealed in those crayon tales.

[Keltest]

Riftworld is a globe.

Riftworld has an atmosphere.

Riftworld has an ocean which is suspiciously lacking fish.

But other than that... yeah.
We can't even definitely assume that this tentacle things belonged to an entity named Snarl, and we know nothing about this alleged entities' background, other than what the Gods have revealed in those crayon tales.

actually we don't even know that second one.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

actually we don't even know that second one.

It has clouds here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html). And vegetation, interestingly enough.

[Keltest]

It has clouds here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html). And vegetation, interestingly enough.

oh hey, I guess those are clouds. Either that or a swarm of alien parasites in low orbit that just happen to look like clouds.

[Onyavar]

actually we don't even know that second one.

The Globe in 672 is pretty much telling it. There are ice caps, oceans, and vegetation.

... Unless that's the rift looking up to the moon of riftworld... but I think that would be somewhat unlikely.

[Cikomyr]

oh hey, I guess those are clouds. Either that or a swarm of alien parasites in low orbit that just happen to look like clouds.

Now you are being in bad faith

[Keltest]

Now you are being in bad faith

If I cant get out at least 4 deadpan sarcastic comments in a day, its because im catching something nasty.

[Sartharina]

The Snarl kills gods. A puny, low-epic dwarf stands no chance. Also, those Energy Drains would hit Kraagor's just as hard as they hit Dorukan.The Snarl kills Gods. Unfortunately for it, Kraagor isn't a God. :smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Snarl kills Gods. Unfortunately for it, Kraagor isn't a God. :smalltongue:

Not exactly what I'd call unfortunate.

Edit: I didn't even notice this at first, but, in general, you shouldn't post in threads that haven't been posted in for over 45 days.

[Sartharina]

Not exactly what I'd call unfortunate.

Edit: I didn't even notice this at first, but, in general, you shouldn't post in threads that haven't been posted in for over 45 days.

I thought I was in the other thread dealing with Kraagor's non-death, not the one that was linked from from there. :/