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View Full Version : [3.5e D&D/PF] Alchemy and Potions: would this expansion of the skill be balanced?



Segev
2014-02-16, 11:31 PM
I put this originally in the 3.5 subforum, but it was suggested I move it here.


As it stands, I've always found potions to be the worst of many worlds when it comes to magic items. They use the priciest structure for one-off spells-in-magic-items, they require their own feat to create, they're limited to level 3 spells or below, and they don't in any way behave differently than a magic pebble somebody uses Craft Wondrous Item to enchant to be a one-off spell of any level up to 3rd. (The CWI stone, however, can have ANY level spell in it, if the crafter chooses.) Heck, such a pebble could be a ruby you throw for a Fireball; a potion cannot cast a Fireball at an arbitrary foe.

There's literally no reason to pick up Brew Potion over Craft Wondrous Item, except to be less capable. (Leaving out PrC entry requirements...and I've yet to see a PrC that focuses on potions that makes them actually good as opposed to merely "less bad.")

However, potions had some interesting (albeit nigh unusable by PCs who aren't cheesing to or beyond the point of cheating) rules in 2e and earlier editions. One in particular involved what happened when you combined them. Now, I'm not about to try to replicate this table (and, if you want to, you can look it up online; I'm sure it's out there somewhere, and the mechanics of it are trivial to translate to 3e). But combining potions might provide an interesting reason to use them despite their built-in limitations.

So, I propose the following additional use of the Alchemy skill, and turn it over to my fellow Playgrounders to dissect for problems with balance (or to critique to make more useful, if it's not good enough):

Potions, unlike most beverages, cannot be divided into smaller parts. The liquid may be separated, but the potion remains a contiguous thing. This can be seen by the speed with which adventurers often quaff them: it is that first mouthful they swallow that confers the effects, and whatever remains in the bottle is nothing more than the non-magical sum of its ingredients.

Mixing Potions
A skilled Alchemist can combine multiple potions into one draught. A successfully-combined potion takes one standard action to drink, and confers the effects of every potion in the mixture to the drinker at once. Alchemists are prized for this ability by adventurers, who often wish to acquire multiple magical effects in a short period of time just before or as battle starts.

To combine potions together, the Alchemist carefully titrates one into another. The one he is titrating is called the "additive," and the one he is adding it to is called the "base potion." This takes 1 minute to do successfully, and requires an Alchemy Skill Check with a DC equal to five times the number of potions being combined. Each individual potion to be added requires a separate roll, but multiple mixed potions may be combined together in one (high DC) roll.

For example, if Morty the Magician wishes to combine a Potion of Haste with a Potion of Bull's Strength for Amandil the elven fighter, he takes one minute to carefully titrated one into the other, and makes a DC 10 Alchemy check. If he succeeds, Amandil can drink this combined potion as a standard action to gain the benefits of both.

If Morty decides he also wants to put a potion of Fly into it so that Amandil can take on a dragon in melee combat, he takes another minute to carefully titrate the potion of Fly into the already-combined potions of Bull's Strength and Haste. This requires a DC 15 Alchemy check, because there are three total potions being combined.

Later, Morty finds two sets of already-combined potions: one of Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, and Bear's Endurance, and another of Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, and Eagle's Spleandor. He decides he wants to make one big potion that buffs all six stats at once. This requires, again, one minute to titrate one of the mixed potions into the other, and requires a DC 30 (5 per potion in the total final mix) Alchemy check.

You may only take 10 on this check if you have an Alchemist's Lab. Without one, you can still perform the titrations, but you cannot take 10.

If you fail the Alchemy check, the additive is ruined. For every 5 by which your check is below the DC, one of the potions (chosen randomly) in the base potion is also ruined.

You may also attempt to separate out combined potions, if you wish. Doing so requires ten minutes and the use of an alchemist's lab. Each check removes one potion of your choice from the mix, separating it into an individual potion on its lonesome once more. The DC for this operation is ten for each potion in the mixture with which you start.

If Morty found that mixed potion of all six stat-boosting spells, and wanted to separate it into the physical potion and the mental potion, he would have to succeed on a DC 60, 50, then 40 Alchemy check to separate each of the mental potions individually, taking 30 total minutes (10 each), and THEN he would have to combine them together in a DC 10 and DC 15 check, taking one minute each.

There is one reply in that thread, and I already replied to it. I will put them here for posterity:


Thanks for the reply!
It's worse than that; I can replicate every potion in the game with Craft Wondrous Item, and have it cost exactly the same amount and be just as useful. But I can have the Wondrous Item (call it a "magic pebble") be a one-off of any spell in the game, up to level 9. And it isn't limited to single-target magics, and can be used offensively without being a self-buff first. Potions literally are not needed.

Ah, that might explain the long time before there was a reply. I might remake it over there. Thanks!

The idea here is that they roll each time they add another potion to the mix. And the DC goes up each time. So they start by mixing two potions to make one mixed potion, at DC 10. Then they add a third, rolling against DC 15. A fourth would mean a fourth roll and DC 20. Etc.
You could be right. I just thought it was cool and in line with an alchemist's abilities if he had the tools.

I was going to ask why, but I think I see why in later parts of this. I'll get back to this.


Okay, these two tell me that you're reading my proposal as if it were about brewing one potion at the cost of one potion or something like that.

That's not what I was going for.

This doesn't require you to be brewing the potion at all. It requires you to already have the potions in question in hand. Brew Potion has to be used to individually make each of them before this process is even attempted.

(Note that the alchemist need not be the one who brewed them; he could be taking potions he and his party found on an adventure and combining them.)

So he has to make or acquire them individually, and THEN make the mixture checks. Effectively, each of these potions has already been "paid for" by whatever means potions get paid for, whether found, stolen, bought, or brewed.

There is nothing, save the high DC, to stop "the uberpotion" from being mixed together, no. That's kind-of the idea; a high-enough level group of adventurers aren't going to see a whole lot of use for the relatively expensive potions that only give up to 3rd level buffs if there isn't a big advantage to them over the usual "get buffs that last all day" routine. And it's relatively high-level adventurers who'll be mixing "uberpotions," since they're the only ones who can afford that many potions.

Thanks! You could still be right: it might be overpowered. I'd like a little more examination of how, though, beyond "it sounds like it might." Not that I don't appreciate the evaluation; I just think it bears a little more scrutiny so that the way to adjust it is clearer.


Your right Brew potion is low on the totem pole but the key to potions is that anyone can use them where as not everyone can use a staff, wand, or scroll.

your idea is sound but honestly it belongs in Homebrews.
Rather then one DC, I would have them roll for each spell they added to the concoction. Example DC = (10 + the combined spell levels in the potion )

It is enough to combine potions without an explosive reaction. Being able to separate potions pushes the limit of believability in D&D tech.

Set a max number of spells in a potion. Perhaps by saying the number of caster levels can not exceed the players caster level. So if a 12 lvl caster made a bull/cats grace potion they could have 4/8 caster levels divided.

As these spells are rather low cost to the caster i would make a failed check result a ruined potion. Exception = failed concoction potion dont result in EXP loss if failed.

Why a minute? Honestly there is no reason to reduce the crafting time. It has to be done outside of combat and noncombat time is moot as the DM simply states x number of days pass.
The problem is the barbarian with the uber potion. Without a limit what is to prevent your caster from crafting super potions that buff all stats, AtK, saves, AC, and Skills at once? Most any DC can be overcome.

Your idea is good you just need a limit to prevent it from becoming over powered. I could see potions being useful at higher levels if they had more effects.



Any comments or advice or questions are welcome. I'm curious if this could be broken, or if it just brings potions something unique and useful. Or if it fails at that, even.

Omegas
2014-02-17, 08:44 PM
Figured I would check back on this one. I am afraid I am about all your going to get on this one. I have made potion makers before, and honestly it is a nice convenience. Potions offer you the ability have your party cast your low level spells on themselves rather them wasting your turn buffing them. As you pointed out there are other ways but potions are just a simple concept for all players regardless of gaming experience.

First = I did read you idea. I did not misunderstand it. Expert types (especially skill based characters) can make any skill DC moot. There are dozens of ways for an experienced support player to get around DC skill checks.

My suggestion was to lower the DC making it more versatile for direct casters, while using caster level to limit the potion instead. This is a far better method of limiting the potion then DC checks. And a limit is important, other wise why not make uber potions all the time?

The fact of the matter is, I dont see why you need to have a skill to pour two potion together. They are both drinkable thus short of mixing mentos mints with diet coke their really is not reason to rationalize a reaction other then assuming magic would react. In this case I would limit the number of ounces that could be mixed (Aka the quantity of fluid that could be swallowed in a partial round [4 seconds] and how cumbersome the bottle is based on size.) If you think of it. The player is just making a really expensive potion.

But back to your version. With a failed check you only lose the additive potion and maybe another effect 5 pts down. Still your increasing the quantity of fluid, so at what point do you water down the original potion to the point it fails to work?

This sounds more like a crafting option rather then a quick and easy skill anyone could use. With an assume failure it sounds as if you expect the potions to react. Thus it is something more likely to be done at creation rather then a quick stur & shack, then pour back in the bottle and cork it.

Dont get me wrong mixed potion sounds like a great idea. But like you said, there are other better ways. I think a far simpler solution would be.

Here is a super simple alternative

Any character can mix potions (5% chance of botching the mix). Characters that make a DC 20 Alchemy check avoid this botch chance. Characters are able to swallow a mixture that is composed of a number of potions no greater then 1/2 their HD as a standard action. Otherwise the mixture requires a full round action to consume.

See how easier this is. Again this is just suggestions.

Realms of Chaos
2014-02-17, 09:00 PM
So you know, the rules for mixing potions were officially updated to 3.5

You can find them right Here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b)! :smallsmile:

TuggyNE
2014-02-17, 09:29 PM
This seems like a pretty good setup, although I might include something about extra (nonmagical) reagents for more complicated mixtures.


My suggestion was to lower the DC making it more versatile for direct casters, while using caster level to limit the potion instead.

Soooo… spellcasters get buffed? Do not want.


The fact of the matter is, I dont see why you need to have a skill to pour two potion together. They are both drinkable thus short of mixing mentos mints with diet coke their really is not reason to rationalize a reaction other then assuming magic would react.

Chemistry strongly suggests that volatile substances like potions really would be like mixing mentos with diet coke most of the time. Even when they react acceptably, there's enough instability there that skill is needed to make them mix properly; titration is an actual thing that's often necessary.


But back to your version. With a failed check you only lose the additive potion and maybe another effect 5 pts down. Still your increasing the quantity of fluid, so at what point do you water down the original potion to the point it fails to work?

Again, chemistry. If you mix two solutions together, you do not have less of either solute in the combination. Rather, you have more solvent per unit of solute. But if you are consuming the entire solution anyway (either by drinking it all, or by magic, or whatever), it doesn't matter.

Omegas
2014-02-17, 10:00 PM
So you know, the rules for mixing potions were officially updated to 3.5

You can find them right Here (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20060401b)! :smallsmile:Nifty cant say I ever seen that before, but interesting none the less. Still this is the homebrew section and i like this guys alternative. Honestly I dont see why we have to have big complicated systems for every simple thing. His version is significantly easier then the posted rules. My alternative even more so. Why waste game play with so much for so little. Potions are weak unless you stack several high caster level spells into the same mix.

TuggyNE
I get that your anti caster but honestly not everything that helps casters makes them more unbalanced. Often you have to see the big picture. In the second line I suggest capping potion mixes by caster level which does far more to limit caster then skill DCs.

Segev
2014-02-17, 10:55 PM
I'm honestly not against making "uber" potions. What's the harm, really? You're paying for all of the potions that go into it, so there's no discount. The only thing this does is allow you to have your "combat cocktail" of buffs in one action. This IS a big advantage, don't get me wrong. But it's the kind of advantage I almost thing potions HAVE to have before they're worth having their own craft feat.

As I said, the existing potion rules can be duplicated completely with Wondrous Items, at the same level of access, AND better because it lifts targeting and spell level restrictions. So this is designed to make potions have a unique flavor - pun completely intended - all their own.

Let me turn it about on you: what is the concern that an "uber" potion would break? Much of our theorycraft in 3.5/PF centers around a surfeit of buffs, usually made long-duration through various shenanigans because in practice, buffing that much just takes too long. The fight would be over. This reduces it to a one-round quaff of potion, allowing the "normal" durations to be dominant while still letting a high level (read: wealthy enough) character to have his buffs and eat--er, drink them, too.

I don't see a particular problem with it being the purview of experts to mix potions. They're not able to craft them unless they're also casters (or, in PF, I suppose they are, given the rules for magic item creation without the proper spells!).

Part of the reason for that fluff spoiler is to give at least a nod towards how you're combining potions without making it too hard to drink the amount of fluid: part of the care in mixing them is to make sure you get the glob that has all the magic in it. But that really is fluff; you can explain it however you like.

The reason for the skill is to make it so that you do need a character invested in this to add lots of potions together. It may be "trivial" to get high bonuses to skills, but it still takes dedication. It's not about preventing them from doing it; it's about making sure that not "everybody" can.

But it does keep coming back to the question of "the uber potion." What do you fear to see? Analyzing balance requires knowing where the breaking point is and why, so it can be addressed.

TuggyNE
2014-02-17, 11:23 PM
I get that your anti caster but honestly not everything that helps casters makes them more unbalanced. Often you have to see the big picture. In the second line I suggest capping potion mixes by caster level which does far more to limit caster then skill DCs.

I'm not anti-caster; indeed, almost all of my homebrew is new spells. I'm anti-free-bonuses-to-overpowered-classes. And limiting by CL seems, unless I'm mistaken, to be far more restrictive for those classes that literally have no CL than to those classes that have one that scales automatically.

In contrast, skill DCs are not inherently limited to casting classes. (Although Craft: Alchemy needs a slight tweak to be usable without casting.)

Realms of Chaos
2014-02-18, 12:00 AM
It doesn't seem as though you're finding a problem with potions so much as with the item crafting system in general. Seriously, most forms of magic items are barely relevant at all:

Magic weaponry and magical armor is relevant but they are both one feat.
Magic scrolls are relevant... because of spellbooks
Magic rings are relevant... because nothing else can occupy finger slots.

pretty much everything else can be a wondrous item as the rules currently have things. No need for potions, wands, rods, or staves that I can see. At all.

That said, a potion combo sounds like it would certainly give potions some relevance.

Edit: While I'm fine with mixing potions, I would hesitate to say that there is "no discount" involved as including multiple magical effects in one item normally increases the price beyond the sum of the two. Unless combining potions involves expensive reagents, you are getting quite a substantial discount.

Just to Browse
2014-02-18, 12:24 AM
Uber combo potions are a bad thing. When players can take a week to make a super potion that lets you win any combat for 10 rounds, then they will spend many weeks doing that and win many combats 10 rounds at a time. It's like the 5-minute workday jacked up on steroids.

You need some kind of spell level limit (not a spell number limit), likely in the form of crafting. Alternatively, you can seek out another niche that doesn't encourage superbuffing. I would personally just drop the opportunity cost.

Segev
2014-02-18, 08:52 AM
It doesn't seem as though you're finding a problem with potions so much as with the item crafting system in general. Seriously, most forms of magic items are barely relevant at all:

Magic weaponry and magical armor is relevant but they are both one feat.
Magic scrolls are relevant... because of spellbooks
Magic rings are relevant... because nothing else can occupy finger slots.

pretty much everything else can be a wondrous item as the rules currently have things. No need for potions, wands, rods, or staves that I can see. At all.I can see your point, and don't entirely disagree. I think the only real justification for rings taking their own feat is that rings are in theory better than any of the other slotted Wondrous Items due to the fact that there's pretty much no "inappropriate" effect for a ring slot. Then again, Rings are priced such that they're effectively halfway between slotted and slotless wondrous items, so...

But. Each of those things - rings, staves, wands, arms and armor, scrolls - do something different enough that you can find at least a smidgen of an excuse to make one rather than another. (Rods...not so much. The closest they come to being 'unique' from wondrous items is that some of them are also weapons...but it takes Craft Arms and Armor as well as Craft Rod to make them. I honestly think Rods should just be folded into Arms and Armor.)

But Potions... literally nothing but one-off spell-casting wondrous items with a funny form factor and extra limitations.

This wasn't a project I was working on for a while or anything, but a fit of sudden inspiration while contemplating buff cycles, so I haven't really given it a lot of thought in the broader realm of magic items.


That said, a potion combo sounds like it would certainly give potions some relevance.That is about 50% of the goal. (The other half is the sheer utility that relevance of potions brings to the combat-types who rely on buffs.)


Edit: While I'm fine with mixing potions, I would hesitate to say that there is "no discount" involved as including multiple magical effects in one item normally increases the price beyond the sum of the two. Unless combining potions involves expensive reagents, you are getting quite a substantial discount.Actually, if you look at the magic item crafting rules for items that don't take a slot, things usually get cheaper when you combine them together into one.
Multiple Similar Abilities

For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities.

Multiple Different Abilities

Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.



Uber combo potions are a bad thing. When players can take a week to make a super potion that lets you win any combat for 10 rounds, then they will spend many weeks doing that and win many combats 10 rounds at a time. It's like the 5-minute workday jacked up on steroids.The time taken isn't the cost, though. It's the gold pieces spent on the potions. I know this wouldn't be the typical "custom tailored" combat cocktail, but it's a good measuring stick, I think: the "+4 to every stat for 3 minutes" potion (combining a CL 3 Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Bear's Endurance, Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, and Eagle's Spleandor) would be 6x300gp = 1800 gp burned in a single fight.

Even the 3 physicals alone are 900 gp. Add a Haste potion, and that 900 goes to 1650 gp.

Is this awesome for your fight? Certainly. But by the time you're able to spend that kind of money on a fight and consider it not to be breaking the bank, your wizard friend is throwing charges from staves with 9th level spells every fight, too.


You need some kind of spell level limit (not a spell number limit), likely in the form of crafting.Can you give an example of what somebody could do "every fight" at what levels (based on loot rewards from appropriate-CR encounters) that would be better limited by the CL of the combined potions than by the simple fact that potions are expensive?


Alternatively, you can seek out another niche that doesn't encourage superbuffing. I would personally just drop the opportunity cost.I am not sure I understand you here. What do you mean by "drop the opportunity cost?" My knowledge of that phrase doesn't seem to apply to this context.

The Dragon
2014-02-18, 10:17 AM
Stat boosters are weaksauce.

My current character (a monk) looks somewhat like this at fifth level;
Human
Barbarian (invulnerable rager) 2
Monk (martial artist) 1
Barb +2

Stats:
str 24 (+4 from belt)
dex 18
con 16(+1 at lvl 5)
int 13
wis 16
cha 6

Feats:
1: Power Attack
1: Raging Vitality
3: Dragon Style
B: Combat Reflexes
B: Stunning Fist
5: Dragon ferocity

Gear of note includes a +4 strength belt, an amulet of mighty fists +1, a ring of protection+1 and a cloak of resistance +1.

He's pretty beastly, but he has no ac to speak of, especially not when he rages.

If this system was in play I'd probably beg the party alchemist(the class) to brew me a number of the following mixed potion, and take the accelerated drinker trait:
Enlarge person, CL1, 50gp.
Mage Armor, CL1, 50gp
Shield, CL1, 50gp
Shield of Faith, CL1, 50gp.

For the low, low price of 200gp, I can, by using my swift action at the start of any round where combat looks to get tough (since I have accelerated drinker and I'm a monk, so I'm always holding my potion and attacking with my feet) gain +8 AC(factoring in enlarge person), +2 to damage, (+4 on the first attack each round) and the all important reach. This is not balanced with 200gp's worth of consumable.

Segev
2014-02-18, 10:30 AM
It isn't?

200 gp is affordable for a big fight at level 5, but if you use it in every encounter, that's 2600 gp out of your 10,500 for your wealth-by-level that are just gone.

I'm not sure, at 5th level, I'd cough up 200 gp for less than that effectiveness when it lasts for only one fight.

Notably, you have a party alchemist who is dedicated to this work. I have not written rules for an NPC alchemist being paid to do this.

Even so, since all of those are 1st level spells by 1st level casters, the CL-limitation rule wouldn't stop this from working, either. So the proposed solution doesn't resolve the stated problem, if one accepts that it is a problem.

Meanwhile, it would take a DC 10, 15, 20 Craft: Alchemy check to successfully combine these. I'm sure your dedicated party Alchemist can make those, but...well, let's look at this.

+6 from int (assuming a buffed 22 Int) + 5 ranks + 3 class skill = +14 to the check. If he's got Skill Focus, that's +17. With an Alchemist's lab, by these rules, he could guarantee he'd make the DC 20 (since he could take 10). He could honestly risk it without it, since he only would fail to make the DC 20 on a 1 or a 2.

So yes, if you want to spend 200 gp on this "uber" buff and have a dedicated alchemist in the party, you can!

Your swift drinker feat is yet another point of dedication towards making this effective, too, I might add.

I don't think this out of line for its cost when you factor in how much you've built two characters towards optimizing it. (Even if the alchemist is "incidentally" optimized towards it.)

Mendicant
2015-06-10, 12:08 AM
This does not seem that outlandish to me, although it's worth noting that the opportunity cost collapses quite a bit if you've got somebody with brew potion and some appropriate spells. Even then though, the price per spell still compares unfavorably to a wand with the same assumptions made, the tradeoff is just more interesting because you're paying a premium for real convenience.

If implemented, I'd imagine potions would more strongly occupy the only niche I've ever really seen them used in: inefficient but sometimes lifesaving "oh @#$*" buttons for noncasters.