Making a troll barbarian less awesome - help needed

[Harlot]

Hello

I am once again in need of aid, as my friend wants to be a troll barbarian (initially at class level 3) in this upcoming game of ours (I am NOT the DM)

I have been informed elsewhere her at GITPG that the ECL for that build is 14, which is a bit of an issue, since the rest of the group are ECL 3-4 ish.

The suggested solution is to adjust the troll barbarian by 'removing the racial hit die'. and by starting out at barbarian level 1.
However we can't seem to agree on the right way to do it.

The basics:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm

To end up at an ECL at app. 6-7 ish (having just one class level of barbarian) would it be enough, as my friend suggests, to remove these three Giant Racial Traits, and then leave the rest (bonusses etc.) as it is?

Traits removed:

Racial Hit Dice:
A troll begins with six levels of giant, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +4, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +5, Ref +2, and Will +2.
Racial Skills:
A troll’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Listen and Spot.
Racial Feats: A troll’s giant levels give it three feats.

(The HD would be 1d8+6 instead.)

I personally would be harsher and halve most of the other bonusses (such as the +12 to str.) but admittedly LA+5 is a lot and should be compensated accordingly with stats etc.

So any help would be appriciated, we've never used monsters as characters before, and we have certainly never tried to leveladjust them either.

Thanks
/Harlot

[Sian]

remember ... RHD is also sorta pseudo LA, giving you nothing but average hit dice, crappy skill list and so-so bab, with nothing else

That said ... Savage Species have statted Trolls so they can start playing at ECL 1

[Zweisteine]

The best option is to use the progression from Savage Species. However, it's a 3.0 book, so you might have to change some thugs if the update effected trolls at all.

This will result in being unable to take levels in any non-troll class until level 15, which sucks, but that's what it costs to play a troll.

Don't forget to have the party cleric cast protection from energy (fire and acid) every day as soon as you reach the right level.

EDIT:

You will Read this handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928) before using a monster as a character.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, here is my build that should feel trollish.

There is a human only feat that grants powerful build. I am likely messing up the spelling, but I think it is Jortubund or something like that.

There is a human only feat that grants regeneration 1 (fire, acid), but are fatigued in direct sunlight.

Toughness is a prereq for troll blooded.

So we start with fighter 1 for toughness and pick up Jortubund and Troll blooded as your human feats. If you have flaws, I would take something to get power attack. Throw your stats into Str > Dex > Con (you don't need too much con due to starting every fight at full HP)

At ECL 3, I would go Fighter 2 / Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy, Spirit Lion Totem) 1. The second fighter feat will help make up for the combo eating all your first level feats.

Once you can, get a scroll of mineralize warrior. Have someone you trust read it with you as the target. You must serve them for a year and a day (so pick someone who won't abuse that) but get the mineral warrior template with it's +str, +con, +natural armor and DR8/adi.

It costs 6650, so it's out of your price range just now, but once you get it, you are a regenerating, tough, big fellow who flies into a rage, all with only 1 LA.

[HammeredWharf]

The feat that grants Powerful Build is Jotunbrud. He could also be a goliath. They're a decent race for a melee character and get nice barbarian substitution levels. You can find goliaths in Races of Stone and Jotunbrud in Races of Faerun.

I, too, would recommend making a troll-like character instead of an actual troll. The concept just wouldn't work well in an ECL4 game.

[Segev]

Fiend Folio, according to my quick google search (as I'm away from book at the moment), has a +4LA half-troll template one can apply. That'd make him ECL 5 at Barb level 1.

There's also the troll bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#troll), though that honestly doesn't look to me to add enough to give that "troll" feel.

What I'd honestly recommend? PF, before they tried something different that I don't think works very well, had a very straight-forward way of handling monsters-as-PCs: Their base ECL, before class levels, was simply their CR. When you consider that a PC of a given level is supposed to be a challenge of appropriate CR to a party of his level, this makes sense, assuming the CR of the monster is calculated at all appropriately in the first place.

So, as a trial run, for at least a session or two (and preferably for a couple of levels), let him start the game as an ECL 5 character, and call his CR from being a Troll (5) his ECL. Start him with the same amount of exp as the lowest-exp PC in the party other than him, and give him exp earnings as an ECL 5 PC in this party; he gains his first Barbarian level when he has enough exp to hit level 6.

He'll have higher stats and more hp than any level 5 character, but I think you'll find that, overall, the troll's actual effectiveness and such are not out of line with what a well-build level 5 Tier 3 character can do.

[The Insanity]

I wouldn't allow it.

[Segev]

One other point of calibration: If you find letting him play an ECL 5 troll that just uses the SRD entry for "troll" as its basis to be overpowered, you can just not let him level up until he seems on par with everybody else. Then declare whatever level the rest of the party is to be his "real" ECL, and let him start leveling from there.

[Harlot]

Thank you all.
We are currently looking into the 3.0 troll from Savage Species. It still seems to be LA+5 (rather harsh I think) even at 'troll class level 1', but it seems better suited for the campaign.

And we might look into the Fiend Folio half-troll, just to see if that is better.
And thanks for the link to Urpriests handbook. I've seen it before, didn't think of it. It is VERY good.

Just curious though:
IF we INSISTED (or rather, my friend insisted) on using the SRD CR5 troll as the base creature, would the suggested method of removing the HD described in my initial post post be correct?
Thanks

/Harlot

[Urpriest]

Thank you all.
We are currently looking into the 3.0 troll from Savage Species. It still seems to be LA+5 (rather harsh I think) even at 'troll class level 1', but it seems better suited for the campaign.

And we might look into the Fiend Folio half-troll, just to see if that is better.
And thanks for the link to Urpriests handbook. I've seen it before, didn't think of it. It is VERY good.

Just curious though:
IF we INSISTED (or rather, my friend insisted) on using the SRD CR5 troll as the base creature, would the suggested method of removing the HD described in my initial post post be correct?
Thanks

/Harlot

I'll answer your explicit question, then give you my usual spiel for questions like this.

If you used negative levels to remove the racial hit dice as part of the backstory, then you could only remove five of them (unless you use the somewhat shaky interpretation that a character with only one racial hit die can always trade it in for a class level even after character creation). In that case, you would have one (no) Giant racial hit dice, which give d8 hit points (not d8+6, that's only because the base troll has Con 23, yours will obviously have a different value), +0 BAB, and a base Fort +2, Will +0, Ref +0. You'd get (2+Int)x4 skill points for that level, with the same class skills as a normal troll. You'd get the normal number of feats for your total hit dice, like any other character ever.

If you instead houseruled the hit dice away, then the same applies, with the caveat that the LA should change since LA are calibrated with hit dice in mind, so you would increase the LA.

Now for the general spiel:

There are two reasons to play a monster. Either you want to play the creature that exists in the game world, or you want to play a creature with specific traits.

If you want to play the creature that exists in the game world, you have to take on all of its traits, no exceptions. (Though you can take them on gradually as per Savage Species.) The hit dice are just as central to "being a troll" as the regeneration and high Str, and throwing out either makes you "not a troll" or at least "not the same thing as all the other trolls in the world".

On the other hand, since your player wants to get rid of the hit dice they're probably not interested in playing a troll, but rather want to play a character with troll-like traits. In that case, your player should figure out which troll traits are desired and which are not, and we can advise you on how to get those traits efficiently. Half-Troll might be an option, as might a Goliath, or a character with Troll-Blooded. Heck, my favorite way to play a troll is an Incantatrix Gish with Persistent Draconic Polymorph. Tell us what you want and we can help you get it.

[Segev]

Removing the HD really doesn't do anything good for balance. It turns the troll into something far more fragile than it should be at the party's ECL without removing the advantages that theoretically make it too powerful as written.

Again, I think you would be happiest (all of you) if you went with "it's CR 5; let it in the game as an ECL 5 character with everything as written in the SRD."

See where it goes from there.

[OldTrees1]

Start them out as a 3-4th level Troll (possibly using this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10262043&postcount=191) homebrew) and let them gain Barbarian levels after the monster class is completed (ECL 11 for Savage Species, ECL 5 for homebrewed version).


Just curious though:
IF we INSISTED (or rather, my friend insisted) on using the SRD CR5 troll as the base creature, would the suggested method of removing the HD described in my initial post post be correct?
Thanks
No. Racial HD are not equal in strength to Class levels. Removing 1 RHD would involve a fractional increase in LA. (assuming you are using a reasonable initial calculation of LA)

Monster classes are the way to go. They reduce RHD, LA and abilities for the initial character and gain those back as they level.

[Harlot]

Thank you Urpriest.


On the other hand, since your player wants to get rid of the hit dice they're probably not interested in playing a troll

See, this is the core of the matter. I am the problem. I want to adjust the character, as I find a level gap of 10 ECL levels between the troll and the rest of the group to be a real problem.
The player really just wants to be a troll, because that would be awesome (your option one) and he was rather miffed when I pointed the ECL 14 and further stated the obvious; that it is rather unfair to the rest of us. He does see sense about the level gap, though.

Our DM doesn't know the rules. We take turns and this DM doesn't read English so he cant read the books, forums, anything really, and makes up rules as we go. Which explains why he allowed the blasted troll in the first place. I on the other hand ... I admit there's quite a miss-match.

Anyway, the player is cool, but at the same time doesn't willingly drop his character from ECL 14 to half of that.
The suggested solution in my very first post above is his, and IMO that removal would not lower the troll to ECL 6. I may be wrong?

This thread is my way of trying to present the player with a compromise that I find fair. My initial compromise - letting the rest of us be ECL 14 as well - was refused by the DM who wants us all to be level 3-ish. Obviously the DM is not of aid - we have to sort it out by ourselves. And it is still a discussion - we're hardly angry at this point. (Though with this DM I am currently not amused.)

So frankly, this is about making a troll that is still awesome, keeping my friend happy, while making me feel not b********d when I wade through the piles of corpses cluttered around the troll with my 'made by RAW - swordsage' level 3.

(Another player suggested that we ALL just make ECL 14 trolls, and see how the DM will handle that. Would be the weirdest game ever.)

@Segev:
Again, I think you would be happiest (all of you) if you went with "it's CR 5; let it in the game as an ECL 5 character with everything as written in the SRD."
I don't understand this? If we play the troll 'as written' in the SRD, I was to understand, it would not be ECL 5 but really ECL 11 (6HD + 5 LA) Or am I wrong about this also?

[Urpriest]

Go for the Troll Savage Species class, then. Simplest way to achieve what the player is doing in a RAW manner.

[Harlot]

Thank you all:
Yes, the Savage Species seems to be the way IMO. It seems very fair.
But only, ofcourse, the player agrees.
I'll direct him here, he may have comments of his own.

Thank you again GITPG forum for helping. You really are the best.

[Segev]

@Segev:
I don't understand this? If we play the troll 'as written' in the SRD, I was to understand, it would not be ECL 5 but really ECL 11 (6HD + 5 LA) Or am I wrong about this also?

Sorry, what I meant was: Use the stats presented for a troll in the SRD. Declare it to be ECL 5, as-is.

I think you'll be surprised, unless the party is ridiculously low-op, at how close the troll is in power to the rest of the party. Right now, he'll be a bit stronger, since you said you're ECL 4, but the non-monsters will catch up fast.

Think about it: Right now, you guys are of a level that an encounter with a troll should be a challenge, but hardly insurmountable. Maybe a third to half your resources for the day, rather than a quarter of your daily resources.

Next level, in theory, your party should be of the right CR to face a single troll as a normal encounter. It should die or be captured or be forced to flee by the time you have spent about a quarter of your daily resources fighting it.

The same should be true if, next level, you encountered a level 5 human barbarian with appropriate wealth for his level.

Therefore, a CR 5 troll, as written, SHOULD theoretically be equivalent to a level 5 human barbarian.

So, my suggestion is, in fact, to go ahead and just let him play it, and see if it really shines more than a level 5 barbarian would. Declare him to be ECL 5 with the stats as presented (ignoring the LA and not treating the RHD as levels), and start him with the same exp as the PC with the fewest. He doesn't gain ECL 6 (Barb 1, likely) until he has enough exp to be level 6. This will keep his progression behind the party's for the near future, as he's currently higher ECL than the rest of the party AND starting with fewer exp.

[HammeredWharf]

@Segev:
I don't understand this? If we play the troll 'as written' in the SRD, I was to understand, it would not be ECL 5 but really ECL 11 (6HD + 5 LA) Or am I wrong about this also?

The troll really isn't equivalent to an ECL11 character. It's too weak. If you don't change its feats, it should be roughly on par with a well-optimized lvl 5 T3 melee character, like a Warblade. It's big and strong and durable, but not particularly versatile.

Edit: That is, of course, what Segev explained himself right above my post. I agree with him.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

I hope linking to locked threads isn't against the rules or something

check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151)

wow, by the time I found it, it was already posted :smallbiggrin:

[OldTrees1]

I hope linking to locked threads isn't against the rules or something

check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151)

wow, by the time I found it, it was already posted :smallbiggrin:

Bookmark it for next time. :smalltongue:

They really did a good job on making reasonable lower ECL monster classes.

[herrhauptmann]

A nitpick to earlier comments:

Jotunbrud is not powerful build. It has no effect on weapon size.
It's only a boost to your opposed rolls like disarm and trip if counting as large would be advantageous to you. If it's not, you don't need to use it.

[icefractal]

Troll without HD gives:
* Large, but with 30' speed (somewhat good)
* +5 natural armor (decent)
* 2 claws and a bite (useful, but not a big factor)
* rend (nice, although it forces you to using claws)
* darkvision 90', low-light vision, scent (not huge but nice)
* regeneration 5 (awesome)
* +12 Str, +2 Dex, +12 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha (very good for the right classes)

So, a decent package, but not even close to LA +5. Why?
Because the Ghost is LA +5, and gives you incorporeality, auto-resurrection, amazing powers like no-save ability drain, telekinesis, and possession, all usable at will, and also all the undead immunities and some big skill bonuses.

So, what LA is it? Well, clearly more than LA +1. It could be LA +2 if you made the stats smaller, but as is, I'd put it at LA +3.
That's below a Pixie (LA +4), which gets even better stats, a good fly speed, DR 10, strong SR, greater invisibility all the time, a couple decent SLAs, some poorly defined but potentially very good arrows, and a bunch of minor stuff.

So, a Troll Barbarian 1 would be ECL 4, which seems like it would fit (it'd be pretty fragile at that point, but hey, Regeneration).
If you dropped the stats to: +8 Str, +8 Con, -4 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha, then I could see it at LA +2, so another Barbarian level.

[Urpriest]

Sorry, what I meant was: Use the stats presented for a troll in the SRD. Declare it to be ECL 5, as-is.

I think you'll be surprised, unless the party is ridiculously low-op, at how close the troll is in power to the rest of the party. Right now, he'll be a bit stronger, since you said you're ECL 4, but the non-monsters will catch up fast.

Think about it: Right now, you guys are of a level that an encounter with a troll should be a challenge, but hardly insurmountable. Maybe a third to half your resources for the day, rather than a quarter of your daily resources.

Next level, in theory, your party should be of the right CR to face a single troll as a normal encounter. It should die or be captured or be forced to flee by the time you have spent about a quarter of your daily resources fighting it.

The same should be true if, next level, you encountered a level 5 human barbarian with appropriate wealth for his level.

Therefore, a CR 5 troll, as written, SHOULD theoretically be equivalent to a level 5 human barbarian.

So, my suggestion is, in fact, to go ahead and just let him play it, and see if it really shines more than a level 5 barbarian would. Declare him to be ECL 5 with the stats as presented (ignoring the LA and not treating the RHD as levels), and start him with the same exp as the PC with the fewest. He doesn't gain ECL 6 (Barb 1, likely) until he has enough exp to be level 6. This will keep his progression behind the party's for the near future, as he's currently higher ECL than the rest of the party AND starting with fewer exp.

Remember, CR and ECL have no direct relationship, since they measure different things.

In general, an "ECL 5" troll is substantially more powerful than a level 5 barbarian. For one less point of BAB, one worse save, and 2 fewer skill points per level, it gains much higher ability scores than the barbarian could get even while raging, as well as Regeneration, which can relatively simply be parlayed into immunity to damage. Not a smart move.

[PraxisVetli]

You will Read this handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928) before using a monster as a character.

This.
Quoted for necessity!

[Fouredged Sword]

Yeah, on the LA 3 argument, I could see that, but I would not allow it in my games until higher levels, and I would round out and lower the stats a bit more. +12 is just too high a number for my tastes. That, plus 150% damage from fire and acid makes me think it would be a pain to DM until ECL 10 or so (7 class levels, 3 LA). At that point the player has enough wealth to counter some of the glaring weaknesses of the race. Before that, anyone who waves an acid arrow in his direction is an instant kill as likely as not. I dislike play styles that encourage death as the only solution to taking a character down.

[Segev]

Remember, CR and ECL have no direct relationship, since they measure different things.

In general, an "ECL 5" troll is substantially more powerful than a level 5 barbarian. For one less point of BAB, one worse save, and 2 fewer skill points per level, it gains much higher ability scores than the barbarian could get even while raging, as well as Regeneration, which can relatively simply be parlayed into immunity to damage. Not a smart move.

I'm aware of that argument, but I don't find it persuasive. Honestly, a level 5 barbarian with reasonable optimization IS as good as a out-of-the-book troll.

And the "different things measured" argument always falls flat because it doesn't actually say what those things are. It asserts the argument, then quickly hand-waves vigorously to show that one thing is not the same as another when both are treated as PCs.

The closest D&D comes to making the case is when it points out that at-will usable powers that mimic spells are less powerful in practice on one-off encounters than in the hands of PCs because PCs will see them for all of one encounter, while a PC can use it in every encounter if he likes.

This ignores, too, though, that every time PCs encounter monsters, the monster is rested by default; the PCs are not. In theory, anyway.

So yeah, I stand by my recommendation. I don't think the "measures different things" argument stacks up, particularly with trolls.

[Harlot]

Just had a LONG talk with my friend:
Yes he wants the TROLL, not something similar or half***ed. The 3.0 is not an option as he really wants the barbarian class as well, and finds the troll class progression very slow. The cool stuff just doesn't come fast enough. No can't do.

Also, we just had the ECL 14 troll barbarian lvl. 3 face off with an ordinary level 14 human barbarian just to see how good it really was - they do not compare at all.
My friends' point that it is nowhere near a match for an ECL 14 party seems valid. With two trolls against the human barbarian it seemed an even match. So we're guesstimating it to be somewhere around ECL 7-10.

I personally like Icefractals version A LOT. That is essentially the answer we were originally looking for: He loses the HD but ALSO some of the LA and what makes the troll cool - regeneration, reach, natural armor, insane bonii are all still there. + he gets to be a barbarian.

My friend promised to read this thread thoroughly (Hi Michael!) and then we'll further discuss it at the next session.

Thanks again for helping!
/Harlot

[Urpriest]

I'm aware of that argument, but I don't find it persuasive. Honestly, a level 5 barbarian with reasonable optimization IS as good as a out-of-the-book troll.

Yes, but it's impossible to play an out-of-the-book troll, so the point is moot. They need to have the same base array, the same gear access, the same feats (except of course the troll gets one more by having 6HD)...and at that point, are you honestly still going to persist in asserting that a 5th level barbarian is better, even at high optimization? If you really think it's better, show me what your hypothetical barbarian can do.


And the "different things measured" argument always falls flat because it doesn't actually say what those things are. It asserts the argument, then quickly hand-waves vigorously to show that one thing is not the same as another when both are treated as PCs.

The closest D&D comes to making the case is when it points out that at-will usable powers that mimic spells are less powerful in practice on one-off encounters than in the hands of PCs because PCs will see them for all of one encounter, while a PC can use it in every encounter if he likes.

This ignores, too, though, that every time PCs encounter monsters, the monster is rested by default; the PCs are not. In theory, anyway.

So yeah, I stand by my recommendation. I don't think the "measures different things" argument stacks up, particularly with trolls.

In terms of at-will abilities, the main point to be made is that the monster will use it a maximum of three times against the PCs, while the PCs might use it many times that per-opponent, since most of its use would be out of combat. In-combat at-will abilities shouldn't contribute disproportionately to LA, I agree.

In general, the troll is actually a very clear example of something that is a lot more powerful in PC hands than NPC hands. Regeneration is meaningless on a monster: PCs have lots of resources at their disposal, and can simply beat the monster down into the negatives and then coup de grace it with something that bypasses regeneration. By contrast, a PC troll will rarely fight enemies that can bypass its regeneration, can heal up after every fight, and via its allies can gain immunity both to things that bypass its regeneration and to nonlethal damage, Emerald Legion-style. That's a textbook example of a disproportionate effect.

The other thing to keep in mind is that a PC troll will have better feat choices, PC gear, and a much better base array (kind of nowhere to go but up when you start at all 10/11). The elite array and NPC gear gives a monster +1 CR minimum, and this is widely considered DM cheese. Pathfinder judges that the leap from NPC gear to PC gear is worth another +1.

So if you wanted to go back and re-LA the troll, going by CR guidelines, you'd still end up with ECL 7, plus a few points for the disproportionate effect of regeneration.

Now of course, this whole setup is wonky and has a lot of caveats, but the reason why is because monsters are simply not designed to be PCs. It takes a fair amount of effort to look at a monster and figure out an appropriate LA, and at the end of the day you've still got something more fragile and glass cannon-ish than you would like.

The alternative is to actually use monsters that work as PCs, and while this would normally be an enormous amount of work, people have already done it. So there really is no excuse.

Note that with the homebrew troll monster class the guy can easily have a level of barbarian instead of just progressing straight through, since the class is balanced to function like an actual PC class.

[Segev]

You do have a point on the re-build optimization that would go into a PC troll. It would likely be wise to say "the feats, skills, and items are locked up as-written" if it's going to be an ECL 5 PC. The player could, of course, get different stuff when he levels up and adds class levels.

[Urpriest]

You do have a point on the re-build optimization that would go into a PC troll. It would likely be wise to say "the feats, skills, and items are locked up as-written" if it's going to be an ECL 5 PC. The player could, of course, get different stuff when he levels up and adds class levels.

You either mean that the PC would catch up to WBL, or that the PC will be perpetually behind on WBL by an amount equal to 5th level WBL (or 5th level WBL minus one standard treasure anyway). Either way, since WBL is exponential-ish, it won't matter in short order.

Leveling up also means that the skills and feats can be changed, per Psychic Reformation or similar.

Basically, LA needs to be correct at every step on the monster's trajectory (at least until LA buyoff kicks in). Even if a 5th level by-the-book Troll is equal to a mid-op Barbarian, a 5th level Troll/2nd level Barbarian will be better than a 7th level barbarian at the same OP-level.

[Segev]

Even if a 5th level by-the-book Troll is equal to a mid-op Barbarian, a 5th level Troll/2nd level Barbarian will be better than a 7th level barbarian at the same OP-level.

I'm not so sure of this, but admit I have not conducted empirical tests to see.

[Harlot]

Just wanted to let you guys know that we've finally agreed:

The compromise is Icefractals LA+3 build, so that the troll keeps its ridiculous bonii. We have also agreed, that if I end up walking 15 feet behind the troll trough the scattered corpses it leaves behind, he'll pull it out of the game, or we'll try the LA+2 suggestion from Icefractal, lowering it another notch.

This solution was chosen because of the opportunity to have barbarian levels from the start, which was very important, and because the build is still very close to how he had originally visioned it.

I am happy, he is happy, everybody wins.
Thanks!
/Harlot