3.0E Paladin help (really stuck!)

[Lepruk86]

Afternoon,

I have been playing in a group for a while and recently swapped characters a bit (previously was a psionic Warrior).

We had a level 9 paladin floating about which nobody had really played for a while.

I can change her feats but not her stats. She was originally set up to be a ranged paladin but that just doesn't work imo (prove me wrong). Unfortunately I now have no idea what feats to take.

her stats:

Str - 14
Dex - 18
Con - 10 = Makes me cry!
Int - 14
Wis - 14
Chr - 18

AC: 17 (19 with shield).

HP: 62

Weapons: (from memory, might differ ever so slightly but these are close to them).

2d8+2 Sword (I beleive it's a medium sized, unique magic item with the ability to hurt spirits and double crit threat range)

1d6+5 Silver dagger (Our DM likes to use a lot of unique stuff, again this is just from memory may be slightly more / less).

2x Pistols: (Can't remember the damage for these but she has 60 shots worth of ammo / black powder). I do know her melee attacks generally do better.
---------------------------
I can basically use any 3E spells / books / feats.

In terms of equips, she is very basic. No bonus rings, amulets or anything special.

I don't really want to go the mounted route and I didn't think 3.0E of Divine Might really looked that good?
I was thinking Expertise, Power Attack, Dodge, Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting.

This boosts her AC and makes use of her weapons she does have.

Any other thoughts / Suggestions? Really could use some help as a paladin newb.

Thanks for reading :).

[Firechanter]

Don't go TWF. You don't get any meaningful Bonus damage to make it worthwhile.

Grab Power Attack, Divine Might, Divine Shield (these are much better in 3.0 than in 3.5); and if it exists in 3.0, Divine Vigor to boost your HP.

Edit:

It's really a shame that you don't get to swap around the stats. The same character with 18 Str, Con 14, Int 10 would be pretty awesome (as far as Paladins go).

Anyway, Divine Might really is pretty good in 3.0; it was nerfed _hard_ in 3.5 .(apparently someone hated Paladins, or thought that Paladins were overpowered. Wait, was CW written by SKR?)
In 3.0, you get to add Cha to damage for Cha rounds. So if at level 9 you pump your Cha to, say, 22, you get +6 to damage for 6 rounds. That's pretty good!
Also note that while DM has Power Attack as prereq, it is not limited to Melee attacks. So you can in fact go the Archery route. Since Archers are good at getting out Full Attacks and you have a good Dex, you'd benefit quite considerably from Divine Might. Of course, Archery is horribly feat intensive, and since you can't even multiclass as Paladin, it's all the more difficult to pull off.

Divine Shield ofc only works if you actually carry a Shield. So this may be the first to skip.

Divine Vigor gives you a speed bonus and +1HP/level; not really the world but may come in handy. Your call. Maybe for higher levels when you got all the important bases covered.

Also keep in mind that you have Spells. 3.0 Pally spells aren't the best, but they aren't the most horrible ones either. For instance, you get Bull's Strength, which in 3.0 lasts _hours_ per CL, so if you're short on cash you can skip the Str item for a good while. Similarly for Bear's Endurance, which can help you out with HP.

I honestly don't know if there are already any ACFs for Paladins in 3.0, but if so, go ahead and swap out that stupid Remove Disease for _anything_ you can get.

Lastly, I'd really keep bugging the DM for permission to swap some stats around. :p

[Lepruk86]

Thanks for all that amazing advice!

I really thought Divine might wasn't worth it but I guess with that weakness I need to hold back 1 round. So may as well hang out and cast something useful for the following round.

Also, the DM would prefer she remains a dual wielder - This doesn't absolutely mean she has too but that's how she was designed (dual pistols).

I'm back home now (was at work when i posted).

Weapon was 2d4+4 not 2d8+2 / 1d6+6 sorry - but otherwise spot on.

I am thinking, if I keep her TWF specced, maybe he will be nice xD.

So at current; I still think Expertise for the potential AC each round.

Expertise, Ambidexterity, TWF, Power attack, Divine might?

Rather than ranged (not enough total feats) I could go more rogueish down the dodge route.

This character just feels so useless I really want to do something with it.

My DM seems to think pala's are capable of more damage than barbarians but without wasting a lot of rounds casting stuff, I really see Barbs as just the *get in and kill* stuff kind and the paladin's more of the *take damage and yawn* kind.

I was also considering a super shield user. But again, it would be gimped compared to a more solid choice.

This whole issue is around that 10 Con :(.

EDIT: Just checked and looks like Bull's Strength isn't a paladin spell according to my complete spell list/handbook.

DOUBLE EDIT: Just realized it's slightly different, it's strength of stone which seems worse (I can't leave the ground or it expires)... So no climbing, tumbling or jump checks.

[Firechanter]

Huh, this is weird. Dug out an old 3.0 SRD and indeed Bull Strength is not on the list. I was going from memory here and I know that we used BS with our 3.0 Pallies all the time (Forgotten Realms).

What you need to keep in mind about TWF is that it's #1 a huge investment (in 3.0 even worse because of Ambidexterity) and #2 only worth it if you get _really_ a lot of bonus damage, such as a Rogue's bucketful of Sneak Attack dice.
I'm not sure if those ~5-6 you can expect from Divine Might is already enough to outweigh the attack penalties from TWF.

Can't really give any advice about those Pistols because it depends entirely on the Firearm rules you use. The typical muzzle-loaders you get in pseudo-medieval settings usually have too long reload times to be remotely interesting for high-level adventurers.

[Lepruk86]

Huh, this is weird. Dug out an old 3.0 SRD and indeed Bull Strength is not on the list. I was going from memory here and I know that we used BS with our 3.0 Pallies all the time (Forgotten Realms).

What you need to keep in mind about TWF is that it's #1 a huge investment (in 3.0 even worse because of Ambidexterity) and #2 only worth it if you get _really_ a lot of bonus damage, such as a Rogue's bucketful of Sneak Attack dice.
I'm not sure if those ~5-6 you can expect from Divine Might is already enough to outweigh the attack penalties from TWF.

Can't really give any advice about those Pistols because it depends entirely on the Firearm rules you use. The typical muzzle-loaders you get in pseudo-medieval settings usually have too long reload times to be remotely interesting for high-level adventurers.

You are absolutely correct - They are double barrel pistols with 4 shots pre loaded so standard can shoot 3 shots a round (4 with haste) but then have to spend a whole round reloading. I can't remember the damage roll on bullets but it isn't much beyond what our ranger can do.

I may as well cast a divine might / bless or something of that nature.

We played a 3 hour session tonight running as said and I ended up just walking about with shield out and expertise spamming. Plus side I had a AC 25 using max ac and still able to hit well enough.

Downside, it just felt as described. I can't really be hit but can't hit very hard either.

Are paladins just generally a bit difficult to specialize unless you go the mount route? One of the things that really hinders them are the feats. Or rather, lack of...The Psionic Warrior had 10 feats from memory.

Trading feats for 1 level 2 and 2 level 1 spells (at this level) is just a bad trade.

Our group is quite well rounded too. We have:

Fighter / Mage - Now learning Mage more.
Ranger / Rogue
Mage
Cleric / Fighter
Rogue / Fighter
Barbarian
Paladin
Psionic Warrior
Monk

(I beleive this is about right)

Everyone is spec'ed for damage pretty much rather than utility. So with the decent resistances - I could see an in your face shield pally adding to the party and create opportunities for the rogue.

(Huge thanks for all the help again :). Been great to get this out as it's been so stuck in my head last few days).

Edit: I absolutely agree - I may force the issue and say simply *look, either let me retrain her out of TWF or give me more con*. I know TWF isn't worth it on the paladin. It's simply trying to find the balance between what I am allowed to change vs what the character actually is.

(These characters are a couple of years old, the group has been playing the campaign for about that long - I joined about a year a go on this one - We played other things before that in-between *chapters* of this adventure).

[Firechanter]

Yeah, screw those pistols then.



Downside, it just felt as described. I can't really be hit but can't can't hit very hard either.

Here you've got to the crux of why "tanking" just doesn't work that way in D&D 3.X. If you prove to be difficult to hit, and not push out a lot of damage, cleverly played enemies will just start to ignore you and head straight for the squishier comrades and glass cannons.

In 3.0 there simply is no way to mechanically "draw aggro", i.e. make the enemies pay attention to you. The only way there is is: be dangerous. Make it too risky for the enemy to ignore you.

However, at Con 10 you probably shouldn't be the one tanking anyway. Any Cleric with Con 14 has more HP than you.

The alternative is to go for Lockdown. Which basically is achieved by combining a Reach weapon with Combat Reflexes and, usually, Improved Trip. However, Trip requires a Strength check, which isn't exactly your strongest point. Too bad.
If you mainly fight humanoid enemies with manufactured weapons, you might actually go for the following combo:

Exotic Weapon: Spiked Chain + Weapon Finesse + Combat Expertise + Improved Disarm. Your chances are pretty good because the Spiked Chain is a Finesse weapon (so based on your Dex) _and_ Two-Handed (+4 to Disarm check) _and_ gets a +2 to Disarm on top _and_ you can attack at Reach or Adjacent, whatever is necessary. With the extra +4 from the Feat you should be able to send most weapons flying. You've got the Dex and Int to pull it off.
Also, pick up Combat Reflexes and you get to strike an AoO against anyone who approaches you, and that AoO can be a Disarm attempt.

_However_, I'm not a huge fan of Combat Expertise due to aforementioned drawbacks of pumping your AC at the expense of Attack bonus. So CE is basically just a feat tax.


Are paladins just generally a bit difficult to specialize unless you go the mount route?


Well, the Mount has problems of its own, particularly that in the typical D&D game, you'll fight most encounters in places where you can't even bring your mount (read: Dungeons). In 3.5, most Paladin players swap out their mount for something more versatile, but again I don't think those options existed in 3.0.


Everyone is spec'ed for damage pretty much rather than utility. So with the decent resistances - I could see an in your face shield pally adding to the party and create opportunities for the rogue.

Ah, that's good to know. Well, basically the 3.0 Paladin can be a pretty good melee char - but usually you dump Dex, wear Full Plate, generate a threat of force via Divine Might damage output, and staying power via Divine Shield. With your stat array, we need to find something else.

Anyway, if most people are already dealing damage, maybe you really should try to bring in some Control.
Here's another idea:

If you can somehow get 1 Reserve Power Point (i.e. Psionics), you can take the Stand Still feat. This in combination with Combat Reflexes and a Reach weapon (doesn't need to be Spiked Chain, any Polearm will do), with your damage boost from Divine Might, should allow you to lock everyone in their place in a 25' diameter, or even more if you get yourself Enlarged. You won't be dealing actual damage, but if you say the rest of your group are taking care of that, you're fine.
Stand Still doesn't require an opposed ability check, instead the target has to succeed on a (in 3.0) Fort save based on your damage roll, so it's much more reliable than trying to be a Monster Strength check. If they fail their save, they cannot move.
Also note that you just need to have 1PP to take the feat; you are not required to actually spend that point to use the feat.

Alas, I don't know where to get a PP. In the 3.5 version of Stand Still, that requirement has been nixed so I never bothered.
Edit: Got it! Check out the Inner Strength feat in the Psionics Handbook (same book as Stand Still). It's a total feat tax which is a pity, but what can you do.

So long story short, whether you can get Stand Still or not, I think you should definitely go for Combat Reflexes and a Reach Weapon and put that Dex to good use.


(Huge thanks for all the help again :). Been great to get this out as it's been so stuck in my head last few days).

No problem mate, always glad to help, especially if it's about making a Paladin useful. ;)