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Socksy
2014-02-17, 10:35 AM
So... like, how would it work? The dragon in question is Green (Do Small Dragons hatch from Tiny eggs?) so it probably shouldn't be much worse than, say, carrying a set of quadruplets, but what about the bigger ones? Red or gold? Surely a Medium humanoid wouldn't be able to carry a litter(?) of Half-Dragons that big. Also, giving birth, or laying the eggs. Ow. Do C-sections exist in the D&D world?

See also: Half-fiends, half-celestials, half... Well, pretty much anything that can be Huge or bigger.

Grim Portent
2014-02-17, 10:59 AM
The general assumption I make is that the female determines litter size in cross species breeding. So a dragon will lay a clutch of half dragons but a human woman would give birth to one half dragon.

In addition almost all half breeds are the same size category as the primary parent, that is to say the one that's being used as the base creature for the child mechanically. A half dragon human is medium in D&D for example.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2014-02-17, 11:23 AM
In actual biology the female biology determines the number of children. . . if there is only one egg to fertilize your not getting a litter. twins are viable. i image than giving birth to a half dragon child would result in one of three things.

a really easy birth as the dragon biology results in a very small baby (think adult dragon to baby dragon size differential. half dragons might be born the size of a kitten and end up human sized.)

a really hard birth that might kill the mother. general dragon size to human size differential and the added issue of horns, spiny bits and a tough hide not being friendly to the birth canal.

perfectly normal reasonable pregnancy as half dragons are born as much of magic as they are of the parents due to the fact that the genetics really wouldn't work any other way. maybe they are born like a normal baby and develop dragon traits as they age.

Grim Portent
2014-02-17, 11:37 AM
a really hard birth that might kill the mother. general dragon size to human size differential and the added issue of horns, spiny bits and a tough hide not being friendly to the birth canal.

If things go well a normal head first birth would alleviate most of the issues, and I recall that many creatures with spiky bits and scales in real life hatch from eggs with these being quite soft, not as soft as skin and flesh, but softer than bone.

Jay R
2014-02-17, 12:13 PM
This is why it's easier to breed a mule than a hinny.

A male donkey / female horse cross grows as a mule inside the larger horse.

But since everything we know about breeding makes a cross between a mammal and any egg-laying species impossible, there is no way we can apply any knowledge outside the game rules to this situation.

If I allowed human/ dragon pairings in my world (I don't), the dragon would have to be in human form.

If the female is the dragon, she would have to stay in human form for nine months, and the babies would be born human.

If the female is the human, then the offspring would be born human, and learn to change to their dragonoid shape later.

But as I said, I don't allow these crosses.

hamishspence
2014-02-17, 12:22 PM
Personally I think this quote regarding half-dragon warforged sums it up best:


I'm sure a warforged would be quite surprised at getting pregnant, but it can happen anyway, because magic.

Dragons don't tell the laws of reality to sit down and shut up; rather, the laws meekly ask the dragon permission before standing up in the first place.

JustIgnoreMe
2014-02-17, 12:29 PM
But since everything we know about breeding makes a cross between a mammal and any egg-laying species impossible, there is no way we can apply any knowledge outside the game rules to this situation.
You realise now I have to google Duck Billed Platypus crossbreeding, right? Can you imagine how that looks to the NSA?

=edit= OK, we're not getting platypus half-breeds, because they have no close-enough relatives. So now I'm looking at other egg-laying mammals, like the echinda. It's not like I had anything better to do...

=edit edit= Aaaaaand now I've horrified myself by learning about echidna reproduction. Thanks, Jay R, truly: thank you :smalltongue:

But to cut a long story short, it looks like there's no way for an egg-laying mammal to breed with a non-egg-laying mammal. It's just not going to happen naturally (which, in D&D, means it's going to need magic, which needs no logic or reason behind it).

Slipperychicken
2014-02-17, 01:35 PM
You could avoid the squick and say a wizard magically combined their genetic material and incubated the kid in a jar.

Socksy
2014-02-17, 01:44 PM
Aaaaaand now I've horrified myself by learning about echidna reproduction. Thanks, Jay R, truly: thank you :smalltongue:

Oh no, now I'm getting curious... Just how bad is it, exactly?


You could avoid the squick and say a wizard magically combined their genetic material and incubated the kid in a jar.

Nah, it's a plot hook. Someone with a Dragon boyfriend, and INT 9 and WIS 7... Yeah. I just need to know how it actually works.

(Although this will be how half-Dragons and, for the love of all that is holy, half-golems/warforged are usually made in my campaigns. Thank you for the Squick Deflector!)

Scow2
2014-02-17, 01:49 PM
Nah, it's a plot hook. Someone with a Dragon boyfriend, and INT 9 and WIS 7... Yeah. I just need to know how it actually works.Why does someone need to be of hindered mental ability to date a Dragon?

The child of a Dragon+nondragon is the same size as a child of the nondragon, and is no harder to birth.

Socksy
2014-02-17, 01:56 PM
Why does someone need to be of hindered mental ability to date a Dragon?

The child of a Dragon+nondragon is the same size as a child of the nondragon, and is no harder to birth.

Hindered mental ability?

I'm just pointing out the character probably won't have the presence of mind to use... Ye Olde Medieval Protection?

How would that even work, actually? Shield spell? :smalltongue:

Leviting
2014-02-17, 02:01 PM
Hindered mental ability?

I'm just pointing out the character probably won't have the presence of mind to use... Ye Olde Medieval Protection?

How would that even work, actually? Shield spell? :smalltongue:

Either the use of leather, or washing "it" out.
For spells, resistance or prestidigitation.
Alternatively, acid splash:smallamused:

JustIgnoreMe
2014-02-17, 02:01 PM
Oh no, now I'm getting curious... Just how bad is it, exactly?

It's not as bad as ducks, I suppose, but it just brought home the fact that they are really, *really* odd mammals.


I'm just pointing out the character probably won't have the presence of mind to use... Ye Olde Medieval Protection?

How would that even work, actually? Shield spell? :smalltongue:

If you want a D&D explanation, BoEF probably has something for you.

In the "real" medieval world... well, sheepskin condoms were a thing. As were natural abortificants. But people probably didn't specifically try to not have kids. That's a pretty recent thing in human history: the idea that you don't want as many kids as possible.

Socksy
2014-02-17, 02:44 PM
Alternatively, acid splash:smallamused:

...Ow.

Made me laugh, though.

There's also no way I'm going into the BoEF. Would rather kiss a nopefish.

Berenger
2014-02-17, 02:58 PM
In the "real" medieval world... well, sheepskin condoms were a thing. As were natural abortificants. But people probably didn't specifically try to not have kids. That's a pretty recent thing in human history: the idea that you don't want as many kids as possible.

Uh, people wanted to avoid pregnancies a lot in history. There are several instructions from nearly every culture, often including unhealthy, expensive and / or incredibly absurd recipes. It is true that children were an old-age insurance at some times, but you could also be ruined by the cost of raising them, getting them married etc. Pregnancy could also be a death sentence (by natural causes or "social repercussions").

Kris Strife
2014-02-17, 03:31 PM
Hindered mental ability?

I'm just pointing out the character probably won't have the presence of mind to use... Ye Olde Medieval Protection?

How would that even work, actually? Shield spell? :smalltongue:

I believe the forums have declared that they are called Dwarven Defenders.

Also, yes, shape-shifting or other magic is usually involved in the creation of half-dragons. Half-Golems on the other hand are closer to automail that takes over the patient sometimes.

Socksy
2014-02-17, 03:58 PM
I believe the forums have declared that they are called Dwarven Defenders

I'm sure that led to a lot of puns about protecting the tunnels from intruders... :D

I've just realised the mother of the half Dragons can manifest time hop. What would the effect of that be on a tiny person living inside her? Would they come along too, or would things get messy? Do fetuses count as your gear?

We need some thread along the lines of "How Does Pregnancy Interact With 3.X RAW Anyway?" and this may become that place.

ShadowFighter15
2014-02-17, 04:39 PM
Personally I think this quote regarding half-dragon warforged sums it up best:

Meh; if you want to use half-dragon warforged, I'd just say that they're experimental models from House Cannith/the Lord of Blades/both*, but then I tend to keep warforged in Eberron.

*Either independent research along the same lines or one got the idea and the other nicked it.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2014-02-17, 06:48 PM
I've just realised the mother of the half Dragons can manifest time hop. What would the effect of that be on a tiny person living inside her? Would they come along too, or would things get messy? Do fetuses count as your gear?

the fetus is biologically attached to the mother i think it still counts as part of her. it'd be like saying a time hop splits Siamese twins. . .

Slipperychicken
2014-02-17, 06:55 PM
the fetus is biologically attached to the mother i think it still counts as part of her. it'd be like saying a time hop splits Siamese twins. . .

In a game, I'd say they're the same creature until birth. If you really bugged me about the specifics, I'd count the kid as an attended/worn item (and maybe also give it some hit points -if the mother takes too much damage and rolls badly on a d%, then ~1/4 of the damage hits the kid as well).

Segev
2014-02-17, 07:36 PM
In Exalted - which is not D&D - an unborn child is explicitly without life of its own. It is part of the mother's body until it takes its first breath, whereupon its higher and lower souls enter its body and it becomes a living, breathing, independent creature. For whatever values of "independent" can truly apply to an infant, anyway.

INoKnowNames
2014-02-17, 07:50 PM
This thread has filled me with wonder, disgust, amusement, worry, hope, and dispair all at once. Good job.

I actually did have the bravery to delve back into BoEF. It notes that non-dragon mothers rarely ever have more than 1 child at once. And given that a Wyrmling from a full dragon couple is the size of a cat, I feel sure that a Half-Dragon Baby would be manageable.

Also, since Prestidigitation can not do anything another spell can do, and there are indeed spells in.... other... books.... that provide such... abjurations....

You know what; I gave the op info I thought was relevant; that's enough stabbing my own mind for the evening. I need to go pray.

Sith_Happens
2014-02-17, 08:49 PM
Hindered mental ability?

I'm just pointing out the character probably won't have the presence of mind to use... Ye Olde Medieval Protection?

How would that even work, actually? Shield spell? :smalltongue:

The Forgotten Realms has a pair of 100% effective contraceptive herbs, one for men and one for women.

Slipperychicken
2014-02-17, 09:52 PM
The Forgotten Realms has a pair of 100% effective contraceptive herbs, one for men and one for women.

PF has a contraceptive for men, called "Bachelor Snuff (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Bachelor-Snuff)", and one for women called "Night Tea (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Tea-Night)". Both are 100% effective, but only work on humanoids of the appropriate sex.

Aron Times
2014-02-17, 10:07 PM
The Forgotten Realms has a pair of 100% effective contraceptive herbs, one for men and one for women.

I don't have the Forgotten Realms campaign setting handy, so can you tell me what the herbs are called? I remember reading about them in the 3.0 FRCS but I cannot recall their names.


PF has a contraceptive for men, called "Bachelor Snuff (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Bachelor-Snuff)", and one for women called "Night Tea (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/herbs-oils-other-substances#TOC-Tea-Night)". Both are 100% effective, but only work on humanoids of the appropriate sex.

Anyway, for either Pathfinder or the Forgotten Realms, I believe I just had a character concept epiphany: A bachelor snuff/night tea planter, who uses undead labor on his plantation to toil the fields. Better, um... "dancing," through Necromancy! Using undead to prevent life! It's brilliant! It's thematic! I'll make a fortune!

Ravens_cry
2014-02-17, 10:16 PM
On a side note, I think it's funny that there is almost invariably some herb or spice that perfectly safely and effectively stops unwanted swelling in fantasy universes, instead of being almost as dangerous to the potential mother as the unborn one as was the case of many historical concoctions.

Slipperychicken
2014-02-17, 10:21 PM
On a side note, I think it's funny that there is almost invariably some herb or spice that perfectly safely and effectively stops unwanted swelling in fantasy universes, instead of being almost as dangerous to the potential mother as the unborn one as was the case of many historical concoctions.

To be fair, basically everything in D&D works like that (i.e. it just works, no side effects), especially magic and chemistry.

Also, I think it's reasonable to give characters some way out of pregnancy, given that it can be extremely controversial OOC, and not all groups want to deal with it.

Ravens_cry
2014-02-17, 10:31 PM
To be fair, basically everything in D&D works like that (i.e. it just works, no side effects), especially magic and chemistry.

Maybe, though it's common even in non-roleplay 'verses.



Also, I think it's reasonable to give characters some way out of pregnancy, given that it can be extremely controversial OOC, and not all groups want to deal with it.
There is safer historical possibilities, like a squeezed lemon half (both spermicide and barrier) and condoms made from animal intestines, and good timing, of course. But, seriously, if your game isn't mature enough to handle potential babies, it's probably not mature enough to handle what makes babies.

5a Violista
2014-02-17, 10:45 PM
Actually, this is how it works:

In order for the woman (We'll call her Alice) to be impregnated, the dragon (We'll call him Bob) has to shed his dragon hide and change into a human form. Then, later, the woman has a little baby human (called Steve).

When the Steve grows up, he's just like a human, but with larger muscles and a penchant for running around and yelling at things. However, Steve grows up to become a mighty dragon slayer, and when he finally slays his first adult dragon, he skins the dragon and uses the dragon's hide as armor. Whenever he casts a certain ritual, the hide wraps around him and he gains his Dragon Form, which he uses to wreak havoc across the Nation of Dragons and make himself become the Dragon-Slaying Tyrant over the Nation of Dragons. Then, Steve leads his army of dragons down the mountainside and overthrows the Kingdom of Somewhere.

Then, years later, Steve's half-sister (and full-human) Eve gathers together a squadron of knights and takes back the kingdom, capturing Steve and stealing his Dragon Hide from him, and locking him up in the darkest room of the dungeon, cursed so Steve would have eternal suffering and torture for killing so many innocent peasants, and they fight back the dragons to the mountains.

Thousands of years later, this tale is only a legend in told by wives as they gossip and converse.

Long after the kingdom has fallen into ruin and the castle has become decrepit, leaving behind only a ruined castle in the middle of a forest, the PCs arrive on the scene and go dungeon-diving. There, at the bottom of the dungeon, in the darkest corner, they meet this human-looking Steve, chained by his foot to a wall. He asks the PCs to get that dragon-hide cloak over there in that footlocker, and hand it to him. He begs them, bribes them, makes them promises, and so on. He tries to gain their pity by saying how he's been locked here for three thousand years, and that his cloak was injustly taken away from him by a traitorous swine, and if the PCs free him and get him his cloak, he'll lend his strength to theirs in a victorious campaign of terror and destruction across the entire continent.

That's actually how half-dragons happen.

INoKnowNames
2014-02-17, 11:03 PM
In order for the woman (We'll call her Alice) to be impregnated, the dragon (We'll call him Bob) has to shed his dragon hide and change into a human form.

[Citation Needed] Though not necessarily welcome. Dear god, why does my morbid curiosity bring me back here.

Gavinfoxx
2014-02-17, 11:15 PM
Protection in D&D is a 'Bestow Curse - Infertility'.

Cerlis
2014-02-18, 12:23 AM
Well i'd have always assumed that the medium sized human mother got the surprise of laying an egg 1/3-2/3 into what she thought was a normal pregnancy.

probably involving an egg half the size of a human baby (a medium sized baby) then after it hatches after few more weeks you have a slightly smaller than a human baby Dragon-baby who quickly grows to the size of a human baby (with proper feeding) and reaches adult (human adult) size around puberty.

or something like that.

seemed like the most likely thing.

NikitaDarkstar
2014-02-18, 12:50 AM
Protection in D&D is a 'Bestow Curse - Infertility'.

Did that to my party's scout once... except it was "Bestow Curse - Impotency" we had tons of fun about it OOC... the Scout never did properly figure it out IC...

SiuiS
2014-02-18, 01:38 AM
Either Polymorph or Painfully.

I don't see where "worse that carrying a set of quadruplets" would even come into the equation, though; her child will be a regular human sized critter (if she's human) which happens to be softly scaled.

Socksy
2014-02-18, 01:49 AM
I'm almost starting to regret this thread, but not quite...
Are you saying Time Hop wouldn't split Siamese twins?

Grek
2014-02-18, 02:27 AM
You know, before this thread, I thought half-dragons happened because of polymorph spells on the dragon. Dragon turns into a human, romance occurs naturally.

SiuiS
2014-02-18, 02:34 AM
You know, before this thread, I thought half-dragons happened because of polymorph spells on the dragon. Dragon turns into a human, romance occurs naturally.

That is the expected use until you realize
A) only a small subset of dragons can do that, and
B) half-dragon black puddings exist

Avilan the Grey
2014-02-18, 02:38 AM
Have only skimmed this thread BUT:

1. Magical crossbreeding. Seriously, not "A wizard did it" but rather the dragon parent's innate magical power makes it possible.

2. I say it works like with dogs: The size of the mother determine the size of the offspring. Cross a Shepard with a Daxhound female, and they all will fit well in there (also, smaller female usually limits the size of the litter.

3. The individual kids are probably smaller than the same age human child (but growing faster).

Cerlis
2014-02-18, 02:42 AM
You know, before this thread, I thought half-dragons happened because of polymorph spells on the dragon. Dragon turns into a human, romance occurs naturally.

the question is the baby. Which is never human. And in regards to the fact that Dragons lay MULTIPLE EGGS and humans usually carry ONE baby to full sized term

Socksy
2014-02-18, 02:45 AM
half-dragon black puddings exist

... Pass the brain bleach.

SiuiS
2014-02-18, 03:36 AM
the question is the baby. Which is never human. And in regards to the fact that Dragons lay MULTIPLE EGGS and humans usually carry ONE baby to full sized term

Nope. The base creature is human; humans don't lay eggs. Humans don't have litters. That's how templates work. There is no genetic science involved; dragons can breed with humans because Magic, not through any twist of the RNA.

Kris Strife
2014-02-18, 04:03 AM
... Pass the brain bleach.

You can get half-dragon assassin vines and half-dragon shambling mounds too.

golentan
2014-02-18, 04:25 AM
You can get half-dragon assassin vines and half-dragon shambling mounds too.

Man was that a crazy bachelor party.

Berenger
2014-02-18, 05:15 AM
Slightly NSFW picture:
http://abload.de/img/family_gathering_colo7jkj2.jpg

SiuiS
2014-02-18, 05:22 AM
I still haven't found any stories about ms. Scorpion and mme. Centaur... :frown:

Socksy
2014-02-18, 06:29 AM
Makes me wonder how the Centaur came to be in the first place...

SiuiS
2014-02-18, 06:46 AM
Makes me wonder how the Centaur came to be in the first place...

Zeus and a pretty horse.





Oh come on, you should have seen that coming by theme alone.

Socksy
2014-02-18, 07:06 AM
I did indeed.
At least everyone else needs the brain bleach too now!

SiuiS
2014-02-18, 07:54 AM
Oh, I'm sorry! This is the Internet, sweetie, there's fan art of pikachu being the result of Zeus and squirrel. Anyone who knows, accepts and adores. We're like love craftsman horror that way, by the time you notice our corruption it's begun to rub off~
We're also toneless? That was supposed to be saccharine, not sarcastic >_<

Socksy
2014-02-18, 08:08 AM
That is my new theory for how Pikachu came to be.
It's so... Logical.:smalleek:

DigoDragon
2014-02-18, 09:19 AM
You could avoid the squick and say a wizard magically combined their genetic material and incubated the kid in a jar.

Thus wizards keep a lid on their darkest secrets. :smallbiggrin:



Man was that a crazy bachelor party.

Well, since the half-dragon template can be applied to any living corporeal creature... pretty much all plant critters are viable for it. Heck, half-dragon dire sheep with a breath weapon.

"Bahhh!" *Fwoosh!*



there's fan art of pikachu being the result of Zeus and squirrel.

Reading this in Natasha Fatale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natasha_Fatale)'s voice makes it infinitely funnier.

Grim Portent
2014-02-18, 09:41 AM
Well, since the half-dragon template can be applied to any living corporeal creature... pretty much all plant critters are viable for it. Heck, half-dragon dire sheep with a breath weapon.

"Bahhh!" *Fwoosh!*

Personally I want to spring a half-dragon cow herd on a party some day. Preferably with dragon blooded feats to give them some extra fun dragon goodies. :smallbiggrin:

Socksy
2014-02-18, 09:53 AM
Well, since the half-dragon template can be applied to any living corporeal creature... pretty much all plant critters are viable for it. Heck, half-dragon dire sheep with a breath weapon.

"Bahhh!" *Fwoosh!*


Well... The national animal of Wales is the Dragon... :smallbiggrin:

Scow2
2014-02-18, 10:06 AM
I did indeed.
At least everyone else needs the brain bleach too now!I don't!

This conversation amuses me.

SiuiS
2014-02-18, 10:35 AM
Reading this in Natasha Fatale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natasha_Fatale)'s voice makes it infinitely funnier.

Intentional. I almost went with actual grammar, but Zeus and squirrel? Come on, that's gold!


Personally I want to spring a half-dragon cow herd on a party some day. Preferably with dragon blooded feats to give them some extra fun dragon goodies. :smallbiggrin:

Give 'em both enduring breath and animate breath, maybe split breath and widen breath. The nature of the breath feats are that there is no actual limit to to the number of rounds you can add to your breath weapon recharge. Which means you can add infinite rounds to your recharge! Repeatedly!

Suddenly, the sheep come to town and create a forever party of constantly dancing eternal breath elementals.

Imagine a herd of dragon cattle who create their own flaming cowboy Shepards!

Kris Strife
2014-02-18, 10:48 AM
Give 'em both enduring breath and animate breath, maybe split breath and widen breath. The nature of the breath feats are that there is no actual limit to to the number of rounds you can add to your breath weapon recharge. Which means you can add infinite rounds to your recharge! Repeatedly!

Suddenly, the sheep come to town and create a forever party of constantly dancing eternal breath elementals.

Imagine a herd of dragon cattle who create their own flaming cowboy Shepards!

Half dragons can't use cool down increasing breath weapon feats, as it's an x/day by default, at least in 3.5. There's a feat for that though, which I have made use of more than once.

SiuiS
2014-02-18, 10:57 AM
Half dragons can't use cool down increasing breath weapon feats, as it's an x/day by default, at least in 3.5. There's a feat for that though, which I have made use of more than once.

Aw you're right, you need something to make it 1d4 rounds first. Huh. So many ways to do it, I just assume players do. Except Sheeps aren't players.

Welp! That's a bust. Wasn't there a feat for this? I just remember that most players would rather take a level of dragon samurai (before the dragon shaman and adept showed up) do it was probably a crappy feat.

Grim Portent
2014-02-18, 11:09 AM
Aw you're right, you need something to make it 1d4 rounds first. Huh. So many ways to do it, I just assume players do. Except Sheeps aren't players.

Welp! That's a bust. Wasn't there a feat for this? I just remember that most players would rather take a level of dragon samurai (before the dragon shaman and adept showed up) do it was probably a crappy feat.

There's a feat you can take at 6 hit dice from Races of the Dragon that makes it 1d4 rounds. This does mean you get to advance the sheeps hit dice. And a half-dragon sheep uses dragon hit dice. :smallamused:

Socksy
2014-02-18, 11:33 AM
Aw you're right, you need something to make it 1d4 rounds first. Huh. So many ways to do it, I just assume players do. Except Sheeps aren't players.

Welp! That's a bust. Wasn't there a feat for this? I just remember that most players would rather take a level of dragon samurai (before the dragon shaman and adept showed up) do it was probably a crappy feat.

Half-Dragon sheep could be!

DigoDragon
2014-02-18, 12:04 PM
Suddenly, the sheep come to town and create a forever party of constantly dancing eternal breath elementals.

Although busted earlier, the imagery is still solid gold comedy. :smallbiggrin:
Certainly beats the half-dragon-dragon shenanigans my last GM pulled.

SiuiS
2014-02-18, 12:08 PM
Half-Dragon sheep could be!

This is true! I had a VoP monk awakened horse, once.


Although busted earlier, the imagery is still solid gold comedy. :smallbiggrin:
Certainly beats the half-dragon-dragon shenanigans my last GM pulled.

We had one of those! Only, I think ours was a draconic half dragon half dragon. And a dragon samurai. Who was also the second least ridiculous party member.

Sometimes I think back on how the games I've played sound, and wonder if maybe, just maybe, I've never played a game of normal D&D after all...

lunar2
2014-02-18, 01:31 PM
i remember one DM who threw a half gold silver dragon with one monk level at the party.

so 3 energy immunities, 3 breath weapons, really high saves, SR, elite array arranged to boost AC and saves, Wis, dex, and natural armor to AC (iirc, it wore barding, too). the thing was a literal tank. you can't hurt it, but it can sure hurt you. we had to gate in a pit fiend to help kill it, and then we just killed the pit fiend when it was over.

DigoDragon
2014-02-18, 02:27 PM
Sometimes I think back on how the games I've played sound, and wonder if maybe, just maybe, I've never played a game of normal D&D after all...

...what would be the basis for comparison? :smallbiggrin:

NotScaryBats
2014-02-18, 03:29 PM
In AD&D the only Half Dragons were from the shapeshifting ones, iirc Gold, Silver, and Copper(?). Anyway, there were only the three, and it explicitly said the union was a result of shapeshifting loving not dragon on human stuff.

I found no such mention in 3.5

Socksy
2014-02-18, 03:36 PM
In AD&D the only Half Dragons were from the shapeshifting ones, iirc Gold, Silver, and Copper(?). Anyway, there were only the three, and it explicitly said the union was a result of shapeshifting loving not dragon on human stuff.

I found no such mention in 3.5

As well as the 3.5 sample half-Dragon being a half-black Dragon....

illyahr
2014-02-18, 04:10 PM
Slightly NSFW picture:
http://abload.de/img/family_gathering_colo7jkj2.jpg

This is why the Bard Shall Never Breed.

SiuiS
2014-02-18, 04:51 PM
This is why the Bard Shall Never Breed.

Oh man, I just figured out why they're all mad at him!


All the children seem to be around the same age...

TheCountAlucard
2014-02-18, 07:14 PM
On a side note, I think it's funny that there is almost invariably some herb or spice that perfectly safely and effectively stops unwanted swelling in fantasy universes, instead of being almost as dangerous to the potential mother as the unborn one as was the case of many historical concoctions.Exalted to the rescue again!

Maiden Tea is popular as a contraceptive in the Realm, because it can work when drank by either sex, but note that an overdose (or even taking it too often) can result in permanent sterility (as well as a few health levels of damage).

Ravens_cry
2014-02-18, 08:21 PM
Exalted to the rescue again!

Maiden Tea is popular as a contraceptive in the Realm, because it can work when drank by either sex, but note that an overdose (or even taking it too often) can result in permanent sterility (as well as a few health levels of damage).
Better, but if you look at some of the historical concoctions, that's downright benign compared to, say, the hot mercury used in ancient China.

Gavinfoxx
2014-02-18, 08:42 PM
Geez. Has NO ONE heard of Silphium???

Manly Man
2014-02-18, 09:20 PM
By the way, since silver dragons are immune to acid as well, there could also be half-silver black puddings, however unlikely that would be.

DigoDragon
2014-02-19, 08:30 AM
however unlikely that would be.

"Unlikely" is a word I don't see very often in monster manuals. :smallbiggrin:

GungHo
2014-02-19, 09:59 AM
That is the expected use until you realize
A) only a small subset of dragons can do that, and
B) half-dragon black puddings exist

Clearly both puddings and dragons aren't picky.

illyahr
2014-02-19, 12:18 PM
Oh man, I just figured out why they're all mad at him!


All the children seem to be around the same age...

It's a well-known joke among DM's that the only things a Bard can do consistently are high-Charisma skills and knowing all the right people. Combining the two, which they inevitably are, results in some interesting situations that most DM's just don't want to deal with. :smallbiggrin:

Socksy
2014-02-19, 01:12 PM
It's a well-known joke among DM's that the only things a Bard can do consistently are high-Charisma skills and knowing all the right people. Combining the two, which they inevitably are, results in some interesting situations that most DM's just don't want to deal with. :smallbiggrin:


You mean the Extending Rod/Rod of Wonder/Rod of Lordly Might puns?:smallwink:

DigoDragon
2014-02-19, 01:33 PM
You mean the Extending Rod/Rod of Wonder/Rod of Lordly Might puns?:smallwink:

Staff of Power...


I'm reminded of one odd NPC I tossed at my party. It was an evil female red dragon that had been cursed into the form of an elf. She took up levels in Bard because of her vast knowledge skills and wandered the countryside picking up bits of info that might help break the curse. The only PC that wasn't smitten with her was the fighter (probably because she knew better).

illyahr
2014-02-19, 04:12 PM
You mean the Extending Rod/Rod of Wonder/Rod of Lordly Might puns?:smallwink:

+1 Thundering Club and +2 Dancing Longsword come to mind. :smallbiggrin:

Socksy
2014-02-19, 04:13 PM
Aren't red Dragons generally Lawful?

Your changeling is adorable by the way.

EDIT: I almost choked on my cookie after reading the club thing. I can just imagine a group of adventurers making jokes about their weapons like that.

"Hey babe, wanna know why they call it a quarterstaff? Mine's four times as long (;"

Sith_Happens
2014-02-19, 05:34 PM
I don't have the Forgotten Realms campaign setting handy, so can you tell me what the herbs are called? I remember reading about them in the 3.0 FRCS but I cannot recall their names.

Cassig root and nararoot, under Special Substances and Items.


EDIT: I almost choked on my cookie after reading the club thing. I can just imagine a group of adventurers making jokes about their weapons like that.

"Hey babe, wanna know why they call it a quarterstaff? Mine's four times as long (;"

"Hey, and remember that time we met those guys from that secret organization that lived in the desert and one of them spent a bunch of money and another bought a bunch of food and maybe they had face tattoos?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0710.html)

golentan
2014-02-19, 11:46 PM
Hey, why only male euphemisms? Bards can be female, too. What about someone's portable hole, pearl of power, scabbard of vigor, flaming brazier, or bag of tricks? Or the bard with item creation feats who feels compelled to make jokes about producing salve of slipperiness?

INoKnowNames
2014-02-20, 01:12 AM
>golentan/

ohgodwhy.gif

SiuiS
2014-02-20, 03:54 AM
Hey, why only male euphemisms? Bards can be female, too. What about someone's portable hole, pearl of power, scabbard of vigor, flaming brazier, or bag of tricks? Or the bard with item creation feats who feels compelled to make jokes about producing salve of slipperiness?

Okay, you had me crack a smile at pearl of power. XD

Socksy
2014-02-20, 04:04 AM
Yo momma so slutty, they call her the Vag of Holding.

How about Use Rope and Innuendo?

Sith_Happens
2014-02-20, 05:14 AM
How about Use Rope and Innuendo?

Pssh, Handle Animal and Iaijutsu Focus are where it's at.:smallwink:

INoKnowNames
2014-02-20, 05:17 AM
Okay, you had me crack a smile at pearl of power. XD

I actually just saw that one... and think I -might- need that one cleared up for me. >.<


Pssh, Handle Animal and Iaijutsu Focus are where it's at.:smallwink:

Handle Animal, I get (and am officially beyond horrified by). Iaijutsu Focus, you're gonna need to explain. I'm not sure how that one works in this context.

Ravens_cry
2014-02-20, 05:17 AM
Pssh, Handle Animal and Iaijutsu Focus are where it's at.:smallwink:
Finishing in only one motion hardly counts as a good thing.:smallamused:

SiuiS
2014-02-20, 05:20 AM
I actually just saw that one... and think I -might- need that one cleared up for me. >.<

Sexually explicit discussion is against forum rules.


Finishing in only one motion hardly counts as a good thing.:smallamused:

Goodnight everybody~!

*leaves thread*

INoKnowNames
2014-02-20, 05:25 AM
Sexually explicit discussion is against forum rules.

Who said anything about that? I'm merely asking for an Aid Another check on Knowledge (Biology). I rolled a natural 1.


Finishing in only one motion hardly counts as a good thing.:smallamused:

.... wow, how'd I not get that one the first time around.

Socksy
2014-02-20, 05:34 AM
The pearl of power is what the bard keeps in front of her Portable Hole... Is that non-explicit enough?:smallbiggrin:

INoKnowNames
2014-02-20, 05:41 AM
Magic Item Locations; got it. Thanks!

By the gods, I don't think I'll ever be able to play a normal game again without blushing.

Dear God, I am still morbidly curious. How -did- that thing with the Green Dragon end up going?

Sith_Happens
2014-02-20, 08:32 AM
Finishing in only one motion hardly counts as a good thing.:smallamused:

I wouldn't be so sure, it is a Charisma-based skill.:smallwink:

DigoDragon
2014-02-20, 09:40 AM
Aren't red Dragons generally Lawful?

Generally yes, but I rarely use those alignment guidelines when I run dragons. It keeps the players guessing what the dragon is up to, even the metallic ones. :smallbiggrin:

And thanks for the compliment!

Marnath
2014-02-20, 10:52 AM
Oh man, I just figured out why they're all mad at him!


All the children seem to be around the same age...

Heck, those are just the ones that look sort of normal! He has more. There's a whole series of those on Mr. Andersson's site there.


Generally yes, but I rarely use those alignment guidelines when I run dragons. It keeps the players guessing what the dragon is up to, even the metallic ones. :smallbiggrin:

And thanks for the compliment!

If by "generally yes" you mean "never" then yes that's true. Reds are chaotic.

Socksy
2014-02-20, 11:04 AM
If by "generally yes" you mean "never" then yes that's true. Reds are chaotic.

OBJECTION!

*Grabs MM*

Dammit, Marnath is right.

SiuiS
2014-02-20, 11:40 AM
Generally yes, but I rarely use those alignment guidelines when I run dragons. It keeps the players guessing what the dragon is up to, even the metallic ones. :smallbiggrin:

And thanks for the compliment!

Green and blue are lawful. Black, red and possibly white are chaotic.


Heck, those are just the ones that look sort of normal! He has more. There's a whole series of those on Mr. Andersson's site there.

Yeah, it's just been so long. I suspect he has more :smalleek:

illyahr
2014-02-20, 12:34 PM
Yeah, it's just been so long. I suspect he has more :smalleek:

Those are just the ones that all happened to see him this time around. He gets this every time he moves. :smallamused:

Socksy
2014-02-20, 02:01 PM
What comic or series is the picture from? Can someone link me? /Far too lazy to manually input the URL

DigoDragon
2014-02-20, 02:16 PM
If by "generally yes" you mean "never" then yes that's true. Reds are chaotic.

Okay, I stand corrected on that, but the overall point remains that I could throw a red dragon of any alignment into the campaign without warning. :smalltongue: :smallsmile:

Sith_Happens
2014-02-20, 02:20 PM
Can someone link me?

Not without getting mod-smacked.

Socksy
2014-02-20, 02:46 PM
Not without getting mod-smacked.

Ahh, okay! I'll type the thingy in manually.

Marnath
2014-02-20, 03:21 PM
Ahh, okay! I'll type the thingy in manually.

I hope you're ok with nudity. :smallwink:

illyahr
2014-02-20, 06:34 PM
Can someone PM me a link? I'm fairly curious also.

Ionbound
2014-02-20, 07:01 PM
I will say, as a warning, the artist's art also includes some really messed up concepts for undead monsters. It's not all just fetish fuel.

Ravens_cry
2014-02-20, 07:04 PM
I will say, as a warning, the artist's art also includes some really messed up concepts for undead monsters. It's not all just fetish fuel.
Everything is fetish fuel to someone.:smalltongue:

Kris Strife
2014-02-20, 07:04 PM
I will say, as a warning, the artist's art also includes some really messed up concepts for undead monsters. It's not all just fetish fuel.

It probably is for someone.

Ionbound
2014-02-20, 07:06 PM
Disturbingly, you guys are probably right...:smalleek:

Socksy
2014-02-21, 02:34 AM
His art of the adventuring party is adorable.

Especially that bard.

Which actually brings us nicely back to half-humans.

INoKnowNames
2014-02-21, 02:57 AM
I will say, as a warning, the artist's art also includes some really messed up concepts for undead monsters. It's not all just fetish fuel.

Twilight set the bar pretty low for that. You'd have to -try- to do worse.


His art of the adventuring party is adorable.

Especially that bard.

Which actually brings us nicely back to half-humans.

I did ask, what ever did happen to the situation you attempted to ask for concerning that Hot-GreenDragon-on-HumanoidFemale Action.

... for that matter, which of Girard's parents were related to that Black Dragon again?

Socksy
2014-02-21, 06:13 AM
It was male Dragon, female human(?) I think for Girard.

The hot green-Dragon-on-female-humanoid action involves NPCs being manipulated by another NPC because of two more NPCs... It's complicated, and currently being ignored by the PCs, so it's more of a hypothetical at the moment. It's not the most urgent plot point, just the one that I thought was thread-worthy.

However, I think I'm going to go for teeny-tiny half-Dragon babies which are still quite a lot bigger than the babies the girl is built to have. Tiny, soft horns and everything. Any idea what the CON checks/fortitude saves would be like on that?

Ravens_cry
2014-02-21, 07:16 AM
Plenty of mammals with horns. One can imagine the horns grow in after birth.
As for being too big, it depends on the dragon. A black or copper dragon wyrmling is Tiny, which is the size of a human baby.

Socksy
2014-02-21, 08:56 AM
Plenty of mammals with horns. One can imagine the horns grow in after birth.
As for being too big, it depends on the dragon. A black or copper dragon wyrmling is Tiny, which is the size of a human baby.


A green Dragon is Small... D:

The fighter in the party is now dating the plane of Mechanus....

Ravens_cry
2014-02-21, 09:12 AM
A green Dragon is Small... D:

A C-Section's should be doable with magical healing. As for actually carrying such a baby to term, some of the larger multiple births as well as little people, like Stacy Herald, giving birth show it may be possible.

SiuiS
2014-02-21, 10:07 AM
A green Dragon is Small... D:

The fighter in the party is now dating the plane of Mechanus....

What, the whole of it? How does Primus feel about that? He's got to be the overprotective dad of the plane.

"One fist of iron, the other of steel. If the right does not hit you the left one will. Only each hand is not a metal of proportionately high density and thus greater kinetic value, but a temporal schism which will catapult you to the appropriately positioned higher or lower plane."
"You really should have stuck to just iron and steel, sport."

TheCountAlucard
2014-02-21, 10:54 AM
If you're the sort of person who requires Fort saves/Con checks for childbirth (I hope you aren't), I'd just raise whatever DC you're using by two. If you're not, why are you making an exception here?

Socksy
2014-02-21, 11:21 AM
If you're the sort of person who requires Fort saves/Con checks for childbirth (I hope you aren't), I'd just raise whatever DC you're using by two. If you're not, why are you making an exception here?

I'm not, usually. It's just because thar be dragons.

Axiomatic and anarchic creatures I refluffed to be human 'emissaries' of Mechanus and Limbo respectively, actual parts of the plane alive and running about on the other planes. So, not quite the entire place, just part of it.

DigoDragon
2014-02-21, 12:07 PM
Plenty of mammals with horns. One can imagine the horns grow in after birth.

Generally how it works. All babies are soft and squishy at first for a reason. :smallsmile:

TheCountAlucard
2014-02-21, 12:35 PM
I'm not, usually. It's just because thar be dragons.I'm not sure I'm cool with that.

Socksy
2014-02-21, 12:39 PM
I'm not sure I'm cool with that.

Then what should I do? Regular pregnancy in those days was bad enough without adding in dragons.

I hope that doesn't sound snarky, it's a genuine question.

SiuiS
2014-02-21, 05:33 PM
Then what should I do? Regular pregnancy in those days was bad enough without adding in dragons.

I hope that doesn't sound snarky, it's a genuine question.

Two things.
1) do you know why regular pregnancy was bad enough?
2) why does 'dragon' make it harder?

For 1), most of the issues are solved forever by being dungeons and dragons. She won't bleed out (CLW), she won't rip (CLW), a breech birth can be corrected with a magical cesarian (CLW) or even corrected entirely by an adept of Yondalla with that +20 to a single skill roll spell and a single rank in Midwife. She won't suffer (Sleep), the baby won't get stuck (Mage Hand), there won't be any infection (Prestidigitation, Cure Disease) and she won't suffer any malnutrition (Goodberry).

For 2), infant reptiles are small and soft, hornless, pliable and squishy. Nothing in half dragon increases size, and the few sticklers such as boosted con and boosted natural armor aren't applicable at that age; con is your adult score, and natural armor (scales) are pliable at birth and dragons are called out as being different, proving the case on true dragons only. The size of the dragon doesn't matter at all, because a half dragon mouse is still diminutive, even if the dragon was colossal+, because the half dragon template doesn't modify the size of the creature.

Making stuff hard just to make it hard is silly. If you think it would be a good story, go for it! But if it's just gonna be 'roll high or everything sucks' it's not worth it.

And if you find the AD&D net book of sex, they have well handled rules for this stuff that's noncanonical but very well handled. :smallsmile:

Berenger
2014-02-21, 05:45 PM
I'd suggest to refrain from making pregnancy / birth an encounter with rolls of any kind. At all. If those rolls are not relevant, you don't need them. If they are relevant, there will be the possibility of critical failure which will most likely result in horrible, bloody miscarriages killing mother, child, or both.

Unlike the funny horrible bloodshed (as in: swordplay, zombie attacks, vampire feasts...) this is something that happens to normal people and their families in real life - on a regular basis. People don't tend to talk about it, so you may not know if someone in your group is concerned. Like rape, you can successfully milk it for drama, but it is like eating candy out of a box with the imprint "Now with delicious rat poison in every 100th piece!". I prefer a dark, gritty, real feel in my RPGs myself, so I know where you come from, but I have made several (painful) experiences that taught me to turn a blind eye on some "chances" for realism.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-02-21, 06:07 PM
Wow, this thread is ridiculous.

Anyway, how I'd handle the half-dragon thing varies according to what you want to do with it as a story hook. If you're aiming for a city-based, more roleplaying heavy campaign, treat the pregnancy as a normal human pregnancy, just the baby is eventually born with dragon traits, which develop and become more pronounced as the baby ages. The female determines the way the child is born. This would probably include some minor physical limitations. Don't toss 'save or die' things at the fetus. Save or die things are bad enough already.

If you want to justify not wanting the mother character to go through a long period of reduced adventuring activity, have the mother birth an egg that forms rapidly, and birth it, the egg being then watched after for the remainder of the time. Maybe the pregnancy occurs over a month before the egg is birthed this way, the last week or so having the mother look nearly full term.

On the topic of a c-section or such, dragons are magical creatures, you could have the father have a spell ready to birth the egg, or baby, when the time comes. Something that he would have possibly prepared beforehand as an obvious possible need for the sake of the mother's life (a dragon could easily realize this might be helpful for their interests long before any possible pregnancy). No cutting involved, just a specialized version of dimension door once the mother is ready.

Socksy
2014-02-22, 03:35 AM
So magic fixes stuff, and reptiles are conveniently soft. Alright, thanks!

EDIT: Modified dimension door sounds good! Green dragons get sucky magic progression though.

The character's adventuring capability does need to be cut off, mostly because of plot convenience. She's an NPC, so that shouldn't be too important.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-02-22, 07:17 AM
So magic fixes stuff, and reptiles are conveniently soft. Alright, thanks!

EDIT: Modified dimension door sounds good! Green dragons get sucky magic progression though.

The character's adventuring capability does need to be cut off, mostly because of plot convenience. She's an NPC, so that shouldn't be too important.
Well, dragons are magical, you can just say that it's a feature of dragons, and use magic to justify anything you like. Since it's an NPC, you could just do any combination of effects you like!

Also, it doesn't have to be dimension door in particular. If the dragon doesn't have magic spells yet, you could justify it as some kind of ritual magic, or perhaps declare the magic as a lower level spell effect since its use is so specialized and minor. And most of all, you don't really need to specify what exactly happened to the players in great detail.

Erik Vale
2014-02-22, 07:20 AM
You do need to be ready to though [spellcraft check], however they'll probably decide they don't care after the first few words.

Sith_Happens
2014-02-22, 02:29 PM
hot green-Dragon-on-female-humanoid action

Speaking of size issues, how old is the father and does the mother have access to Expansion? Because in absence of mitigating factors, it seems like she'd already have some experience passing large objects through the birth canal.:smallwink:


The fighter in the party is now dating the plane of Mechanus....

So where do you take a plane to on a date? Besides that, I hope the Fighter has a thing for clockwork.


Axiomatic and anarchic creatures I refluffed to be human 'emissaries' of Mechanus and Limbo respectively, actual parts of the plane alive and running about on the other planes. So, not quite the entire place, just part of it.

...Or not. Way to take all the fun out of it.:smalltongue:

But still, how'd that happen? It seems like an embodiment of Perfect Order would be a terribly dull person to be around.

INoKnowNames
2014-02-22, 05:47 PM
Speaking of size issues, how old is the father and does the mother have access to Expansion? Because in absence of mitigating factors, it seems like she'd already have some experience passing large objects through the birth canal.:smallwink:


A green Dragon is Small... D:


A C-Section's should be doable with magical healing. As for actually carrying such a baby to term, some of the larger multiple births as well as little people, like Stacy Herald, giving birth show it may be possible.

I'm gonna leave this here for reference. (http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records-10000/heaviest-birth/) The Human Body may be weak and squishy, but we haven't lived for as long as we have in the same world that had the monsters that would eventually settle down in Australia without being stronger than the sum of our parts. That's one of the reasons almost everything that exists wants to mate with us, after all.

Hell, I was a 9 lb. birth. I was technically a "Small" creature. My mom's not dead (though because my head was so big, I did hit some of the equipment on the way out and my face got bruised, so one of my eyes stayed shut for most of the time at the hospital). And she didn't have access to magic. Just science. Delicious science.

... heck, I'm going to get even more ridiculous with it.

http://lparchive.org/Pokemon-Crystal/Update%2027/breedinglogcomp.gif

A Cat can bare the Egg of a Whale 10x bigger than it. This is a thing that can happen. A Human carrying a Dragon's Baby should consider herself lucky.


Then what should I do? Regular pregnancy in those days was bad enough without adding in dragons.

I hope that doesn't sound snarky, it's a genuine question.

I'll second that a low to mid level Cleric should be able to function easily enough as a Midwife, and liberal application of cure spells to be able to help things along, among other spells. and that's without going into the pregnancy sections of books-that-should-remain-closed. At the very least, regenerate is a core spell if I remember correctly.

.... off topic. This is all for an NPC? How does this impact the PCS again?

... is the father a PC? That Green-Dragon get himself into some trouble?

Socksy
2014-02-22, 07:37 PM
It's after midnight and you guys are making me laugh really hard.

The being of perfect law was scarred slightly by a Slaad attacking her, and the fighter saved her from the layer of Limbo it dragged her back to. She does have a carefully cultivated 'personality', since humanoids in general do so as a law of nature and society.

Why this much effort over an NPC? I was only expecting a couple of responses, the thread continued onwards, and it became a matter of silly jokes and blatant curiosity.

The green Dragon WAS IN HUMAN FORM WHEN THEY DID THE DO. It's Huge! Somewhere around Old-Ancient. It either has a spell or a ring or... Something. He's also not a PC. He's being manipulated by character A, who is in the employ of character B, who wanted the NPC currently carrying one or more baby dragons dead with no suspicion, so B got A to manipulate the Dragon to make sure she ended up pregnant with Dragon babies, hoping she wouldn't survive, since her clan is terrified of Divine magic and clerics in general. It's pretty complicated, I could probably type it all up in the morning.

I've been staring at that GIF...

Sith_Happens
2014-02-22, 08:52 PM
The green Dragon WAS IN HUMAN FORM WHEN THEY DID THE DO.

Boooooooriiiiiing.:smalltongue:


character B, who wanted the NPC currently carrying one or more baby dragons dead with no suspicion, so B got A to manipulate the Dragon to make sure she ended up pregnant with Dragon babies, hoping she wouldn't survive

Worst. Assassination plot. Ever.:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:

Erik Vale
2014-02-22, 09:04 PM
I dunno, sounds like a fun assassination plot.

And if it fails, minions! Win Win for the assassin. Some win for the assassinated.

INoKnowNames
2014-02-22, 10:00 PM
It's after midnight and you guys are making me laugh really hard.

To be fair, after the first night in which I learned all about the endless possibilities of wonderous magical items, I had trouble walking around with a straight face. So it's good that someone else is getting it, too.


Why this much effort over an NPC? I was only expecting a couple of responses, the thread continued onwards, and it became a matter of silly jokes and blatant curiosity.

Of course. The throw away comment gets a multipage thread, and the important things disappear into the forum. Shoulda' seen it coming.


The green Dragon WAS IN HUMAN FORM WHEN THEY DID THE DO. It's Huge!

Well, he does have a base Charisma in the 20s...


Boooooooriiiiiing.:smalltongue:

I would not tell a Dragon that to his face in such a situation.


Somewhere around Old-Ancient.

Perverted Old Dragon likes Younger Women, huh?


I've been staring at that GIF...

The Trope Namer for Hot-Skitty-on-Wailord-Action (HSOWA) in action.


He's also not a PC. He's being manipulated by character A, who is in the employ of character B, who wanted the NPC currently carrying one or more baby dragons dead with no suspicion, so B got A to manipulate the Dragon to make sure she ended up pregnant with Dragon babies, hoping she wouldn't survive, since her clan is terrified of Divine magic and clerics in general.


Worst. Assassination plot. Ever.:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:


I dunno, sounds like a fun assassination plot.

And if it fails, minions! Win Win for the assassin. Some win for the assassinated.

While I agree that someone might have fun during it, I'm gonna throw my vote into "Worst. Assassination Plot. Ever." ... I also need to return to the MLP thread and yell at them about how I can never use the word plot anymore without seeing things.

Said someone noticed that the only creatures that are more wanted than Humans are Outsiders: being entirely universal both ways, and even capable of choosing if they want to produce offspring when they desired it. They figured that enchantment magic could be used to make such an outsider always willing, and curative magic could be used to ensure the safety of her and the brood, so they just needed to capture a healthy outsider.

Guess who was playing an Aasimar Cleric. That subquest didn't last very long.

Erik Vale
2014-02-22, 11:16 PM
... That's just wrong.

But no, for keeping native outsiders in line, your supposed to hit them with planar binding.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-02-23, 02:08 AM
Boooooooriiiiiing.:smalltongue:

character B, who wanted the NPC currently carrying one or more baby dragons dead with no suspicion, so B got A to manipulate the Dragon to make sure she ended up pregnant with Dragon babies, hoping she wouldn't survive
Worst. Assassination plot. Ever.:smalltongue::smalltongue::smalltongue:
I dunno, imagine if someone uncovered the nefarious scheme second hand while they were investigating the player party.
"Assassinated? Are you crazy? If she was assassinated, why not charm her with magic to lure her into a trap or replace her with a duplicate or turn her to stone and bury her somewhere in the wilderness?"
"Don't you see? Those are all way too obvious!"

Sith_Happens
2014-02-23, 05:00 AM
I dunno, imagine if someone uncovered the nefarious scheme second hand while they were investigating the player party.
"Assassinated? Are you crazy? If she was assassinated, why not charm her with magic to lure her into a trap or replace her with a duplicate or turn her to stone and bury her somewhere in the wilderness?"
"Don't you see? Those are all way too obvious!"

That would work if you're planning to make it look like she died in childbirth, but if you're just crossing your fingers and hoping she really does die that way then "assassin" is probably not the best career path for you.

Socksy
2014-02-23, 05:23 AM
That would work if you're planning to make it look like she died in childbirth, but if you're just crossing your fingers and hoping she really does die that way then "assassin" is probably not the best career path for you.

The character in question has a fear of Divine magic, and the assassin knows it. There are also an order of Paladins of Bahamut currently trying to kill the Dragon. The assassin is almost certain she's going to die trying to give birth to Dragon babies with the father distracted and no cleric. (She's perfectly willing to stick a Fireball into the room if her plans seem to be failing, getting people to believe it was the mother losing control of her own powers.)

Gavinfoxx
2014-02-23, 10:08 PM
If you fireball a room, the only thing it looks like is someone cast fireball into the room...

Erik Vale
2014-02-23, 11:39 PM
Delayed blast fireball near the pregnant mother, but place it there somewhere inconspicuous, then walk out.

I am a bad bad man.

SiuiS
2014-02-24, 02:22 AM
If you fireball a room, the only thing it looks like is someone cast fireball into the room...

If you fireball a room it looks like a concentrated conflagration, obfuscated by the amount of objects which caught fire in the initial burst.

Remember; if someone waves their hands and a bead streaks at you and explodes, you don't know it's a fireball unless you pass the spell craft check.

Erik Vale
2014-02-24, 02:27 AM
But if someone does so whilst speaking gibberish, you have a fair idea that it was magic, and whoduunit.

Which is why I suggested the delayed blast. Or even a delayed delayed blast fireball, then you can cast it off as prayer. Combine with invisible spell or that spell that makes the spell appear to have different origins to taste, and then claim you were simply praying for the mother before it explodes in a nice conflagration.

SiuiS
2014-02-24, 03:04 AM
Or stash oil around the room, along with some fulminant toxins, and a rigged slow-leak device using a viscous fluid on a combination alchemist's fire/firework. I mean, 600gp for the same effect with no evidence is much simpler, and the speed of spread and size of fire hits 20d6 pretty darn fast first round. Every round.

Magic makes people lazy.

Erik Vale
2014-02-24, 03:06 AM
Size, weight, where from, and your assuming that a alchemical explosion leaves no evidence?

BeerMug Paladin
2014-02-24, 05:08 AM
That would work if you're planning to make it look like she died in childbirth, but if you're just crossing your fingers and hoping she really does die that way then "assassin" is probably not the best career path for you.
Sure, your odds are (at best) the same as the setting's mortality rate for child birth, but not all poisoning attempts work either.

It sounds like you wouldn't approve of an assassin/chef loading up someone's meals with ridiculous amounts of butter and cheese until they have a heart attack, either!

Actually, paying an NPC to go questing might be the best thing to assassinate someone. For extra-doom, hire them to be a party member's mount animal. (Remember to take mounted combat feats!)

SiuiS
2014-02-24, 07:23 AM
Size,

Doesn't matter.


weight

Doesn't matter.


where from,

Doesn't matter.

>leave oil around room
>set off delayed alchemist fire
>have popper to spread alchemist fire
>room becomes inferno

Very low maintenance.works anywhere on the room with setup, and uses PHB stuff.


and your assuming that a alchemical explosion leaves no evidence?

In a world without forensics? Yes, I assume a fire will look like a fire. I assume a no magical fire will not register as magic. I assume that oil, flour and cloth will burn sufficiently. I assume that by the time magic is on board for divination, it wouldn't matter how you killed them anyway. I believe players and power characters in the setting will default to straight lines and brute force (divination, speak with dead, contact other plane, etc.) and that can be played on.

"Who killed her?" No one.
"What killed her?" The bonfire.
"Who started the bonfire?" No one.
"What started the bonfire?" Burning flour being tossed about the room.
"Who set that up?" The servant girl.
"Where is she now?" Her ashes are in the fire.

And all it took to get people so frustrated they can't think straight enough to puzzle out the divination was telling a servant girl to light this incense in the back of the room (which knocks her out from inhalation and starts the bomb), throwing a few red herrings into the literal divination methods. Throwing the assassin having mindblank and you're golden.

Erik Vale
2014-02-24, 07:36 AM
... Your going to sprinkle oil around the room to explode in a obvious manner, and expect the plan to succeed.

I'm just going to leave that statement there, so you can either head desk or explain better. Just saying.

Socksy
2014-02-24, 08:29 AM
The half-dragons have now been successfully born but please continue, this is fun.

Frozen_Feet
2014-02-24, 08:52 AM
If you want a nice thermobaric explosion, you only need few sacks of flour and a misplaced box of matches.

illyahr
2014-02-24, 08:57 AM
If you want a nice thermobaric explosion, you only need few sacks of flour and a misplaced box of matches.

This. Under the right conditions, flour is more explosive than black powder.

DigoDragon
2014-02-24, 09:25 AM
Remember; if someone waves their hands and a bead streaks at you and explodes, you don't know it's a fireball unless you pass the spell craft check.

I remember one time when a player threw a delayed blast fireball into a bowl of candies. The diplomat with the sweet tooth never saw that one coming.



In a world without forensics?

This is probably where hiring a skilled divinator pays off.
Assuming there is someone interested in paying to know the answer. :smallwink:



This. Under the right conditions, flour is more explosive than black powder.

Yeah. PCs detonated a barn this way, relocating it 500 feet into the air.

Frozen_Feet
2014-02-24, 10:40 AM
This. Under the right conditions, flour is more explosive than black powder.

Sawdust is great too.

Erik Vale
2014-02-24, 02:12 PM
If you want a nice thermobaric explosion, you only need few sacks of flour and a misplaced box of matches.


Sawdust is great too.



Yeah. PCs detonated a barn this way, relocating it 500 feet into the air.

I know about this, but as presented your going to coat the room the giving birth is taking place in with oil/sawdust/flour dust/other flamable dust, and hope no one notices...

golentan
2014-02-24, 02:18 PM
I know about this, but as presented your going to coat the room the giving birth is taking place in with oil/sawdust/flour dust/other flamable dust, and hope no one notices...

Cast invisibility + permanency on a barrel of alchemist's fire?

Erik Vale
2014-02-24, 02:28 PM
That's alot more expensive than a delayed blast fireball, or even a invisibile delayed [or Invisible new spell direction] Delayed Blast Fireball. And the cost could be in XP.

Edit: It also leaves to chance someone, you know, bumping into the big a$$ pile of invisible explosives, and unless that sets it off early, that's could be very bad for the assassination plot, and if someone bumps it early...

Socksy
2014-02-24, 02:44 PM
Alright, since you guys seem to be putting a lot of thought into subtly setting a room on fire, how about I type out a location, situation, what the assassin knows, and what resources are available to her other than her gear, and you can all try to find the dragon's lair and come up with a suitable plan to assassinate her. Like one of those "kill the X at ECL Y" challenges that surface occasionally.

Anyone interested?

Erik Vale
2014-02-24, 03:32 PM
I thought we were killing a women in the middle of giving birth? :smallconfused:

sktarq
2014-02-24, 04:41 PM
.... instead of being almost as dangerous to the potential mother as the unborn one as was the case of many historical concoctions.

Like Benghazi Fennel? Worked just fine. No reported side effects. Drove the stuff to extinction it was so good.

SiuiS
2014-02-24, 05:28 PM
... Your going to sprinkle oil around the room to explode in a obvious manner, and expect the plan to succeed.

I'm just going to leave that statement there, so you can either head desk or explain better. Just saying.

Well, no. I don't really need to explain better, unless you drastically misunderstood. Set up area covertly, leave bomb, profit. The end.


If you want a nice thermobaric explosion, you only need few sacks of flour and a misplaced box of matches.

Basically. The alchemists fire is only so you can rig a fuse that doesn't actually need fire in the first place. A slow leak building pressure through a gel, sends an air bubble into the AF, and ignites it. :3


I know about this, but as presented your going to coat the room the giving birth is taking place in with oil/sawdust/flour dust/other flamable dust, and hope no one notices...

Read the presentation again. The flour is there to spread from the original burst. It's only part of the explosive device.


I thought we were killing a women in the middle of giving birth? :smallconfused:

I was expressing pyromania, myself, but wow this is a weird conversation.

Socksy
2014-02-24, 05:42 PM
I thought we were killing a women in the middle of giving birth? :smallconfused:

I was referring to the assassin's plan B, as in, "What if she gives birth and survives and I have to kill her before anyone sees?"

This really is a bizarre conversation.

Sith_Happens
2014-02-24, 05:55 PM
Anyone interested?

Ah, if the birth happened at the dragon's place then that makes things much harder.

Mewtarthio
2014-02-24, 06:22 PM
No, the birth has to take place at the daycare center. That's how it works: A dragon and a human spend the night at the daycare center, and if they really like each other, they find an egg with their child inside. No one, least of all the daycare owner, knows where it comes from.

Socksy
2014-02-24, 06:27 PM
No, the birth has to take place at the daycare center. That's how it works: A dragon and a human spend the night at the daycare center, and if they really like each other, they find an egg with their child inside. No one, least of all the daycare owner, knows where it comes from.

Well, that certainly resolves the whole carrying it/giving birth issue:smallwink::smalltongue:

EDIT: The woman in question is a Maenad. Is that the "shiny" version of a human?:smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

INoKnowNames
2014-02-24, 06:45 PM
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f278/katietiedrich/comic335_zpsea167871.png

And yeah, Pregnancy Assassins and Baby Pyromania: if you aren't already on a government watch list...

Socksy
2014-02-24, 06:50 PM
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f278/katietiedrich/comic335_zpsea167871.png

And yeah, Pregnancy Assassins and Baby Pyromania: if you aren't already on a government watch list...

I'M LAUGHING SO HARD

Sith_Happens
2014-02-24, 07:49 PM
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f278/katietiedrich/comic335_zpsea167871.png

(Sadly, I can't take credit for this answer:)

Muk is made of sewage, which lets off methane. Some of the methane gets through Lampent's cover, and before you know it, boom goes the dynamite.:smallwink:

INoKnowNames
2014-02-24, 08:12 PM
I'M LAUGHING SO HARD

Then I have done my job properly.


(Sadly, I can't take credit for this answer:)

Muk is made of sewage, which lets off methane. Some of the methane gets through Lampent's cover, and before you know it, boom goes the dynamite.:smallwink:

There's probably an erotic pokemon fan-fic that uses those words.

And you can explain how it happens, but you still can't explain where the egg comes from.

Sith_Happens
2014-02-24, 08:20 PM
And you can explain how it happens, but you still can't explain where the egg comes from.

It's the combustion product, because Pokemon already make physics and chemistry cry in the corner as a matter of course.

Erik Vale
2014-02-24, 08:41 PM
I was referring to the assassin's plan B, as in, "What if she gives birth and survives and I have to kill her before anyone sees?"

This really is a bizarre conversation.

Yes it is.

So, in each proposed incident, we seem to have flour or oil exploding in the room/next room to kill them. I would consider this to easy to find, and instead suggest the delayed invisible delayed blast fireball, perticularly if you can convince them to do a C-Section [You take a fireball to your insides. Goodbye...]. However for convincing them it's her loosing control, I suggest you use presdigitation to warm the air/perform other effects, you may even convince the midwives etc to flee due to them crapping themselves, making the birth that much harder, and leaving that fewer witnesses [and fewer reasons to question]. Perhaps contingency the spells for if she gets past certain stages of labor, be under the effect of mindblank to prevent divinationa to find evidence.

Of course, I wouldn't actually suggest this, as I may have NE/LE tendencies, but I'm not NE/Total Bastard As$hat/hole in alignment. More TN with CG/LN/NE tendencies.

INoKnowNames
2014-02-24, 11:44 PM
It's the combustion product, because Pokemon already make physics and chemistry cry in the corner as a matter of course.

"Blame Arceus" doesn't count any more than "I don't know how it happened." No cookie for you.

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/9/99/282Gardevoir.png/600px-282Gardevoir.png

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7231915520/h6BE78430/

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6373542912/h99238B51/
http://i.imgur.com/IyVATiL.jpg


Of course, I wouldn't actually suggest this, as I may have NE/LE tendencies, but I'm not NE/Total Bastard As$hat/hole in alignment. More TN with CG/LN/NE tendencies.

You just left the idea of using high-level magic to produce a fire bomb-based assassination during the middle of a C-Section. I... I don't even have a.... thing for that. I'm famed for never shutting up, and yet I can't even respond to that!

Erik Vale
2014-02-25, 01:26 AM
"
You just left the idea of using high-level magic to produce a fire bomb-based assassination during the middle of a C-Section. I... I don't even have a.... thing for that. I'm famed for never shutting up, and yet I can't even respond to that!

I'm not sure it's that high a level [Delayed Invisible I think is 4, not sure about delayed invisible delayed blast]... But yea...
I'll show myself out.

Edit:
Showing myself back in because I now have a absolutely horrible BBEG idea that came up shortly after.

You know about surgeons leaving things by accident in patients?
What about a surgeon that instead left a extra long delayed special made fireball. Or as a means of control, left a explosive runes, and threatened to fail to dispel it to detonate it if they disobeyed him?
*Leaves quickly*

Sith_Happens
2014-02-25, 02:33 AM
"Blame Arceus" doesn't count any more than "I don't know how it happened." No cookie for you.

"It's the combustion product" is a perfectly valid explanation, regardless of whether the underlying chemical equation is being handwaved or not.


https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7231915520/h6BE78430/

Busty Gardevoir is bad and you should feel bad.

Socksy
2014-02-25, 03:37 AM
The assassin has access to third-level assassin spells. No Fireball cheese for you :smallbiggrin:

Erik Vale
2014-02-25, 04:02 AM
He also has access to umd, or the fireball pearl things. Pay for a contingincy teleport, an invisibility scroll/etc [perhaps a item of walk unseen instead], a prestidigitation scroll, and a single powerful fireball pearl.

Contingency is "When I step on the pearl crushing it, teleport me to [Safe Place] before it explodes."

Assuming the dragon can pay the assassin enough to set up, he uses the invisibility to hide in the room, prestidigitation to fake the birthing mother loosing controll [He pre-casts it before entering, hours/CL duration is good]. If the birth progresses to far, he very carefully places the pearl down, then steps on it with just enough force to set it off [he can by a few very week ones to test it].

Teleport may not be needed if the assassin has evasion [not assuming class], and if stepping on the bead doesn't count as an attack.

Detect magic/invisibility shouldn't be a concern, most people there should be backward savages [in terms of magic], and the mothers going to be too busy giving birth. Any problems I haven't thought of, yes I've thought of bumping into the assassin, the assassin's job is to avoid that, among other things, and if he doesn't, just a early boom.

3WhiteFox3
2014-02-25, 04:45 AM
This thread is awesome and I want my check mark...

Socksy
2014-02-25, 05:11 AM
He also has access to umd, or the fireball pearl things. Pay for a contingincy teleport, an invisibility scroll/etc [perhaps a item of walk unseen instead], a prestidigitation scroll, and a single powerful fireball pearl.

Contingency is "When I step on the pearl crushing it, teleport me to [Safe Place] before it explodes."

Assuming the dragon can pay the assassin enough to set up, he uses the invisibility to hide in the room, prestidigitation to fake the birthing mother loosing controll [He pre-casts it before entering, hours/CL duration is good]. If the birth progresses to far, he very carefully places the pearl down, then steps on it with just enough force to set it off [he can by a few very week ones to test it].

Teleport may not be needed if the assassin has evasion [not assuming class], and if stepping on the bead doesn't count as an attack.

Detect magic/invisibility shouldn't be a concern, most people there should be backward savages [in terms of magic], and the mothers going to be too busy giving birth. Any problems I haven't thought of, yes I've thought of bumping into the assassin, the assassin's job is to avoid that, among other things, and if he doesn't, just a early boom.

No evasion, she's an aristocrat/assassin with a single level of rogue to be able to stick more ranks in the things necessary to enter the PrC.

The person the assassin is working for isn't the Dragon, who, incidentally, is indifferent as to whether the girl in question lives or dies as long as the babies are safe.

I'll type out all the stuff when I get home.:smallsmile:

Erik Vale
2014-02-25, 05:24 AM
Do so, because I've been working on the assumption of a assassin working with a ancient green dragon trying to kill a women in labour.

Sith_Happens
2014-02-25, 06:02 AM
The assassin has access to third-level assassin spells. No Fireball cheese for you :smallbiggrin:


Level: Assassin 3, Sorcerer/Wizard 3
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)

The subject and all its gear become amorphous and oozelike. This new form is boneless and fluid, enabling the subject to pass through holes or narrow openings as small as 2 inches in diameter.

If you know where I'm going with this, then congratulations, you have a sick, sick mind.:smallamused:

Erik Vale
2014-02-25, 06:14 AM
That is.... Wow, just wow. And... Wow.

Makes a chest burster look small time. Should leave the baby alive to...

I love it as a plan you sick, sick, bastard.

Socksy
2014-02-25, 06:38 AM
Alright, then.

In the setting, Psionics are rare, mostly because those with psionic abilities are killed by some of the Churches if found (think medieval witch-hunt-style burnings or guillotine) and the majority of the regular population hasn't even heard of them any more due to how rarely they emerge. Psionics and magic are two different things, ie, Dispel Magic wouldn't remove someone's Inertial Armour. Elans, Elves, and various other things are immortal. Humans live about 300 years and most other races live about 3x their usual length too.

The level of awareness is about the same as OOTS. They'll happily refer to feats, hit points, base attack, and what have you.

The target to be assassinated is a Maenad wilder/barbarian, total level 14, but the person targetting her doesn't know how many levels are in which class or even if there's a third class (The majority of people in town think she's a human sorcerer, due to excessive make-up and disguise ranks). She's been seen "casting" a "Fireball" by the assassin, but other than that, it's unknown what her powers are. The assassin knows she has the Kiai Shout and Greater Kiai Shout feats.

The person who wants her dead is an Elan Psion 3/Warlock 3/Eldritch Theurge (psionic variant)6 princess (the BBEG), whose kingdom was lost to history centuries ago, and who was imprisoned in a tower several thousand years ago by a dragon until she decided she was sick of it and was going to kill it and take over the tower for herself. She's the primary reason psionics are considered 'evil' and entire races got wiped from the campaign setting (Blues, most of the Maenads, Psionic Orcs) via entire centuries of propaganda and manipulation. She believes only Elans should have access to psionic powers, so the thought of a few Maenads having survived a group of corrupt Paladins of Heironeous wiping out the nearby clan angers her. However, she can't leave the tower to kill her herself, because people generally believe she's either a ghost or a fairy-tale, and she refuses to come out from behind layers upon layers of protections unless she absolutely has to.

The assassin is an Elan Rogue 1/Aristocrat 5/Assassin 5, a powerful diplomancer., who serves under the BBEG because of the huge amount of political power she secretly holds through her various machinations, puppets, underlings, and other minions. They're also good friends who have known each other for over a thousand years, so there is no chance of sudden backstabbing in either direction. The Assassin is the mayor of the nearby city, Gerbton-upon-Bayou, and has access to however much money it says a small city's economy has in the DMG. However, if too much of it vanishes, it'll mess up the economy and ruin her political grasp of the nearby area, which she doesn't want. About a millennium ago, she managed to seize control of a large branch of the followers of Heironeous, corrupting the order of clerics from within using Suggestions and Wisdom-reducing poisons on their leaders over long periods of time to influence them and control them. She can easily find and talk to a group of Paladins of Bahamut via the Clerics of Heironeous amongst other things, who would be easily convinced to attack a Chromatic dragon settling down near a civilised area. Her spell list is expanded to include Cure X Wounds spells, and pretty much any other cleric spell an assassin could want. She can still only cast up to third-level spells though.

The dragon is a Very Old or Ancient Green Dragon. He wanted to get out at least one lot of young before he became too old, and he was Diplomanced by the assassin into believing that mixing his bloodline with that of a psionic race would greatly increase the options available to the young, and if the Green Dragons were to get hold of psionics as well as magic, then they would become undefeatable and would be able to eradicate the Copper Dragons. (Some petty rivalry between the green dragon and a Young Adult copper settling down dangerously close to his territory, who he can't squelch because her parents are both more powerful than he is.) He couldn't care less about the mother making it out alive, and he only cares mildly about the babies, since he's decided that a half-dragon would have no chance against a true dragon, regardless of the ages and colours of those involved. (My dragons are somehow even more convinced of their own invulnerability and power than most.)

Also, the assassin wouldn't have the metamagic to make a probably-Epic Fireball. Unless she bought Metamagic Rods or something...

Erik Vale
2014-02-25, 07:13 AM
Quick, question, means that should really instant kill [explosive runes to the inside of your body] going to be lethal, or do we need to drop her down to -10?

What sort of money is available? Edit: Turns out to be answered

Do you care if she's resurectable/the assassin can be determined afterwards [the assassin does, you less so]?

How much lee-way do we have for the assassin's feats/abilities?

Any chance we can know the targets HP/the ballpark for her HP? just wishing to know what ballpark I should aim at.

Hirelings fine?

Are you planning on potentially using this IG, or do you already have a plan your sticking to unless we come up with a really good one?

What sort of scrolls/wizards for casting do we have access to? [Anything we can pay for, anything below x level?]

That should be all for now, but I need to go to sleep.

Edits for rereading: Will the assassin be able to access the target/mother during labour if they can infiltrate the area successfully?

And now goodnight, since I've actually read it. I'll probably have something tomorrow afternoon.

DigoDragon
2014-02-25, 09:04 AM
I was expressing pyromania, myself, but wow this is a weird conversation.

Sadly, this is pretty on par with my group. :smalltongue:

Mewtarthio
2014-02-25, 09:28 AM
Wait, why don't you just feed the paladins the exact same story that the assassin fed to the dragon? You know, "This woman is psychic (and therefore EEEVIL!), and she is attempting to breed an army of evil psychic half-dragons! If she succeeds, the sheer amount of evil in their blood will make them unstoppable!"

Socksy
2014-02-25, 09:44 AM
Quick, question, means that should really instant kill [explosive runes to the inside of your body] going to be lethal, or do we need to drop her down to -10?

You're going to have to drop her to -10, bearing in mind things like Rage and Surging Euphoria mean she'll probably be able to get into a melee without having to worry about things like "My water is broken and this really hurts."



Do you care if she's resurectable/the assassin can be determined afterwards [the assassin does, you less so]?

The assassin does, but almost all the clerics in the region are in her pocket. Nobody is powerful enough to cast True Resurrection in the area.


How much lee-way do we have for the assassin's feats/abilities?

Feats and items from Core, XPH, Oriental Adventures (Nothing involving taint, it confuses me), and Completes.


She gets the 15,14,13,12,10,8 array, or you can use 4d6 best 3.


Any chance we can know the targets HP/the ballpark for her HP? just wishing to know what ballpark I should aim at.

There's no kill like overkill.

( ͡ ͜ʖ ͡)

(I do, however know her exact number of HP and her saves etc. I'm not going to be all 'huh, probably killed her.')


Hirelings fine?

You have access to hundreds of selectively-bred goblins, tougher and more intelligent (+2 strength, constitution, intelligence compared to a regular goblin) than most goblins. Amongst them is a fourth-level wizard specialised in divination.They're mostly pretty cowardly, though.

Other hirelings are a no, as is Leadership (although there are still the clerics and paladins under the assassin's influence.)


Are you planning on potentially using this IG, or do you already have a plan your sticking to unless we come up with a really good one?

It already happened in-game, as I think I mentioned earlier. The thread is just fun, curiosity and shameless discussion of Delayed Blast Fireball murder.


What sort of scrolls/wizards for casting do we have access to? [Anything we can pay for, anything below x level?]

There's very little arcane magic in town, but a trip though the Ambush Hills (They were a setup for a bad pun, but have trees made of sentient meat, and arrows fly out of nowhere at any visible, obvious target occasionally) will get to a different town with an economy less focused on weaponsmithing and more on magic items/gear.



Will the assassin be able to access the target/mother during labour if they can infiltrate the area successfully?

Yep.


And now goodnight, since I've actually read it. I'll probably have something tomorrow afternoon.

Goodnight!
We're in very different timezones, I think :smalltongue:

Socksy
2014-02-25, 09:47 AM
Wait, why don't you just feed the paladins the exact same story that the assassin fed to the dragon? You know, "This woman is psychic (and therefore EEEVIL!), and she is attempting to breed an army of evil psychic half-dragons! If she succeeds, the sheer amount of evil in their blood will make them unstoppable!"

Sorry about the double post, quoting different people on mobile is hard.

You're welcome to try Death By Paladin if you like! They do have Detect Evil, though...:smallsmile:

SiuiS
2014-02-25, 10:33 AM
(Sadly, I can't take credit for this answer:)

Muk is made of sewage, which lets off methane. Some of the methane gets through Lampent's cover, and before you know it, boom goes the dynamite.:smallwink:


Boom goes the dynamite

O_o


Yes it is.

So, in each proposed incident, we seem to have flour or oil exploding in the room/next room to kill them. I would consider this to easy to find, and instead suggest the delayed invisible delayed blast fireball, perticularly if you can convince them to do a C-Section [You take a fireball to your insides. Goodbye...]. However for convincing them it's her loosing control, I suggest you use presdigitation to warm the air/perform other effects, you may even convince the midwives etc to flee due to them crapping themselves, making the birth that much harder, and leaving that fewer witnesses [and fewer reasons to question]. Perhaps contingency the spells for if she gets past certain stages of labor, be under the effect of mindblank to prevent divinationa to find evidence.

Of course, I wouldn't actually suggest this, as I may have NE/LE tendencies, but I'm not NE/Total Bastard As$hat/hole in alignment. More TN with CG/LN/NE tendencies.

Why is an explosive device the size of of a large potato easy to find? It only needs a fifteen second fuse.

Magic is problematic. Detect magic is the first thing that will happen. Magical residue means everyone knows it's an assassination. That makes divination much easier.

The man who throws a fireball when collapsing the condemned building on them is possible is a sucker.



Busty Gardevoir is bad and you should feel bad.

You mean saved. Busty far devoid is saved and you should feel... Uh... Saved?


If you know where I'm going with this, then congratulations, you have a sick, sick mind.:smallamused:

Okay so that's how we Muk a Gardevoir, but how do we assassinate the mother?


Sadly, this is pretty on par with my group. :smalltongue:

Yeah. Well, we...
Yeah.


You're going to have to drop her to -10, bearing in mind things like Rage and Surging Euphoria mean she'll probably be able to get into a melee without having to worry about things like "My water is broken and this really hurts."

Broken water means get baby out now; they'll begin to suffocate and, in D&D terms, that means they've for 3 rounds.

...

Wait until the mother is crowning then PAO into a fire elemental baby?


Sorry about the double post, quoting different people on mobile is hard:

You get used to it =3

Sith_Happens
2014-02-25, 08:09 PM
You said the birth took place in the dragon's lair. Can the assassin reasonably find out what sorts of defenses are around the place, and if so, what are they?

Who if anyone is attending to the mother during the birth?

Socksy
2014-02-26, 03:50 AM
You said the birth took place in the dragon's lair. Can the assassin reasonably find out what sorts of defenses are around the place, and if so, what are they?

Who if anyone is attending to the mother during the birth?

Not many defences as the Dragon wants people to take him on so he can take their treasure. There are a number of traps, most of them magical in nature.

Once the assassin gets into the area, the Dragon in human form can be seen attending to the mother (Unless otherwise distracted).

Sith_Happens
2014-02-26, 04:26 AM
Once the assassin gets into the area, the Dragon in human form can be seen attending to the mother (Unless otherwise distracted).

Then that's definitely the hard part.

Erik Vale
2014-02-26, 05:08 AM
Diplomancy, already used on the dragon already, convince the Dragon to let you kill the mother after the birth [He doesn't care and considers them not-too-useful, so this should be easy], allowing the assassin to perform a coup-de-grace as the mother lays exhausted and unsuspecting after the birth [probably not even looking at you, preferring to look at the babies, pose as a nurse/midwife/'s assistant]. Use the soul stealing metal for the weapon and exist under a mind blank/non-detection/in your castle in the anti-divination architecture/room from Stronghold Builders Handbook for a while to prevent you being discovered. Body disposal + bluffomancy to convince everyone but the dragon she died shortly after due to complications. [:durkon:: "I'd consider stabed by assassin in the head/neck immediately after a pretty big complication"]

If you can't convince the dragon to allow you the kill, convince him to permanently contain her for further children, which should be good enough and shouldn't be traced to you.

I was originally going to apologise for delays [thinking of going to bed sooner rather than later, tired today], but when you hand me such opportunities on a silver platter...
As for exact damage, someone else should be able to calculate best damage [I think single attack, so a enchanted punching dagger or other *3 multiplier unless you think you can hide a scythe] for the overwhelming damage save and HP damage dealt. Combine with surprise round for a second chance to kill before the mother can react.

atemu1234
2014-02-26, 11:13 PM
To the people on page two-

There is a feat for the 1d4 breath weapon recharge instead of a daily limit in Races of the Dragon. Also, the sheep could theoretically have those due to their above average intelligence. They're as sentient as anything with 3 intelligence can be considered. Think of a dragon shepherd, for the lolz.

Socksy
2014-02-27, 06:52 AM
To the people on page two-

There is a feat for the 1d4 breath weapon recharge instead of a daily limit in Races of the Dragon. Also, the sheep could theoretically have those due to their above average intelligence. They're as sentient as anything with 3 intelligence can be considered. Think of a dragon shepherd, for the lolz.

Red Dragon shepherd, partly because the national animal of Wales is a red Dragon and the loving-sheep-too-much thing is sadly true, and partly because we can have him sing Shepherd Of Fire or otherwise reference the song.

... I'm going to add this to my campaign now o:

illyahr
2014-02-27, 01:09 PM
Red Dragon shepherd, partly because the national animal of Wales is a red Dragon and the loving-sheep-too-much thing is sadly true, and partly because we can have him sing Shepherd Of Fire or otherwise reference the song.

... I'm going to add this to my campaign now o:

This is such a great idea. :smallbiggrin:

lunar2
2014-02-27, 09:43 PM
Also, the sheep could theoretically have those due to their above average intelligence. They're as sentient as anything with 3 intelligence can be considered.

this annoys me. you don't need to be sentient to have good feat choices. characters, in general, aren't actually picking their feats. feats just represent the abilities those characters happen to have. unless a feat has an INT prerequisite, any creature that meets the prerequisites can take the feat. a riding dog could have martial study (wolf fang strike), for example, and there is no IC or OOC reason for it not to have it. it's a dog that was trained to bite faster than normal.

Socksy
2014-02-28, 05:32 AM
Ever wondered "How did we get so far away from the previous topic so fast"?:smalltongue:

And I agree, Thog has sucky INT/WIS yet he optimised a bit

SiuiS
2014-02-28, 05:41 AM
Y'all are welcome for the dragon sheep and Shepard~

Sith_Happens
2014-02-28, 09:29 AM
Ever wondered "How did we get so far away from the previous topic so fast"?:smalltongue:

Please, this is a thread about dragon crossbreeding. I think we all knew from the start that it was going to sire a whole brood of exotic discussions sooner rather than later.:smallcool: YEEEEAAAAAHHH!!!

Frozen_Feet
2014-02-28, 09:57 AM
You don't need to be sentient to have good feat choices.

Agreed. Natural selection tends to weed off those who chose poorly. :smallamused:

Socksy
2014-02-28, 10:23 AM
If this trainwreck reaches ten pages, it's cookies for everyone.

illyahr
2014-02-28, 12:52 PM
If this trainwreck reaches ten pages, it's cookies for everyone.

"I likes da cookies" -Hammie the squirrel

Grim Portent
2014-02-28, 01:03 PM
It's not strictly speaking related to the discussion, but you know those Half-Dragon Sheep that were mentioned? By my interpretation PaO into a dragon would be a permanent change on them. Advance their hit dice, cast a spell and BOOM giant sentient draco-sheep.

Socksy
2014-02-28, 01:05 PM
It's not strictly speaking related to the discussion, but you know those Half-Dragon Sheep that were mentioned? By my interpretation PaO into a dragon would be a permanent change on them. Advance their hit dice, cast a spell and BOOM giant sentient draco-sheep.

Dracosheep are always welcome in this thread :smallbiggrin:
And it's pretty related compared to some other things ouo

golentan
2014-03-01, 05:08 PM
So here's a question (going back a ways): When giving birth to a half dragon, is it a live birth or do you lay an egg? And if the latter, does the mother to be have to worry about people hoping to make a giant omelet?

Probably the former...

Mewtarthio
2014-03-01, 05:46 PM
if the latter, does the mother to be have to worry about people hoping to make a giant omelet?

Depends on the color. Metallic dragon eggs make lousy omelets; they taste terrible (though I'm told vampires are oddly fond of copper dragon eggs). Black and green dragon eggs are all but inedible. White dragon eggs don't retain heat very well, and end up tasting like were cooked several hours ago. Red dragon eggs simply will not be cooked without bound fire elementals or similar supernatural sources of flame--the lucky few gourmands who have managed this feat report that the resulting omelet has a zesty, spicy flavor. And, lastly, force dragon eggs are simply not worth the trouble: It takes extreme measures to break the shell, the contents are impossibly tough, chewy, and flavorless, and the omelet is completely indigestible, inflicting much pain and suffering when it is passed.

Socksy
2014-03-01, 06:03 PM
Depends on the color. Metallic dragon eggs make lousy omelets; they taste terrible (though I'm told vampires are oddly fond of copper dragon eggs). Black and green dragon eggs are all but inedible. White dragon eggs don't retain heat very well, and end up tasting like were cooked several hours ago. Red dragon eggs simply will not be cooked without bound fire elementals or similar supernatural sources of flame--the lucky few gourmands who have managed this feat report that the resulting omelet has a zesty, spicy flavor. And, lastly, force dragon eggs are simply not worth the trouble: It takes extreme measures to break the shell, the contents are impossibly tough, chewy, and flavorless, and the omelet is completely indigestible, inflicting much pain and suffering when it is passed.

But the important thing here is, what about Green Dragons?

AMFV
2014-03-01, 06:10 PM
Depends on the color. Metallic dragon eggs make lousy omelets; they taste terrible (though I'm told vampires are oddly fond of copper dragon eggs). Black and green dragon eggs are all but inedible. White dragon eggs don't retain heat very well, and end up tasting like were cooked several hours ago. Red dragon eggs simply will not be cooked without bound fire elementals or similar supernatural sources of flame--the lucky few gourmands who have managed this feat report that the resulting omelet has a zesty, spicy flavor. And, lastly, force dragon eggs are simply not worth the trouble: It takes extreme measures to break the shell, the contents are impossibly tough, chewy, and flavorless, and the omelet is completely indigestible, inflicting much pain and suffering when it is passed.

However Blue Dragon eggs are entirely edible and are quite tasty, if a little bit bland.

Felhammer
2014-03-01, 06:15 PM
So here's a question (going back a ways): When giving birth to a half dragon, is it a live birth or do you lay an egg? And if the latter, does the mother to be have to worry about people hoping to make a giant omelet?

Probably the former...

Dragons usually transform into humanoids when they wish to mate with humanoids, thus through the power of magic, the child would be born in the fashion befitting the mother (live births for mammalian humanoids, egg births for avian and reptilian humanoids).

If it were the opposite (i.e. female dragon, male humanoid), then I would say the Dragon would lay an egg, as befitting the dragon's normal physiology.

golentan
2014-03-01, 07:39 PM
Dragons usually transform into humanoids when they wish to mate with humanoids, thus through the power of magic, the child would be born in the fashion befitting the mother (live births for mammalian humanoids, egg births for avian and reptilian humanoids).

If it were the opposite (i.e. female dragon, male humanoid), then I would say the Dragon would lay an egg, as befitting the dragon's normal physiology.

...

Naaaah. Shrinking magic, not polymorph. That's where the fun is.

Erik Vale
2014-03-01, 10:45 PM
Of course, then you can join the mile high club.

Hmmm. Gem dragons manifest and manifesters get compression... They could probably actually do that. Is their a gem version of the copper dragon?

Oh, and I think that'd be standard fair for wing dragons. [Homebrew]

Sith_Happens
2014-03-02, 10:09 AM
But the important thing here is, what about Green Dragons?

No particular preparation difficulties there, though the resulting omelet is the sourest thing you'll ever taste.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-03-02, 02:57 PM
But the important thing here is, what about Green Dragons?No particular preparation difficulties there, though the resulting omelet is the sourest thing you'll ever taste.
Really? I figured eating it would provoke a reflux save against acid.

Socksy
2014-03-02, 05:25 PM
Really? I figured eating it would provoke a reflux save against acid.

That provoked a Will save against awful pun.

Sith_Happens
2014-03-03, 01:35 AM
Really? I figured eating it would provoke a reflux save against acid.

Sourness is just what acid tastes like, so probably.

BeerMug Paladin
2014-03-03, 04:52 AM
Sourness is just what acid tastes like, so probably.
Unfortunately, I only thought of that after I made my horrible pun.

Socksy
2014-03-03, 04:57 AM
You should post that on the Things I'm Not Allowed To Do thread. "* Acid does not provoke a reflux save."
Spread the horrible puns!

SiuiS
2014-03-03, 11:54 AM
Really? I figured eating it would provoke a reflux save against acid.

Well done. Well done.

2nd_Fiddle
2014-03-03, 12:26 PM
But the important thing here is, what about Green Dragons?

Green dragon eggs are generally served with pork. The first attempt to spread popularity for this dish was documented by the great sage Theodor Geisel.

A Tad Insane
2014-03-03, 05:13 PM
Green dragon eggs are generally served with pork. The first attempt to spread popularity for this dish was documented by the great sage Theodor Geisel.

At first I didn't get it, then I giggled
One that caused my voice to pitch, and my nostrils to shrivel.

Leviting
2014-03-03, 11:31 PM
my question is, after you advance the dracosheep, cast the spell to raise their intellect to sapience, and laugh maniacally, what happens to the dracosheep's sapient consciousness when the spell fades?

Ya know, I'm probably thinking about this way too much.

Socksy
2014-03-04, 02:44 AM
I thought awaken was permanent?

I guess its new intellect would go off to the alignment-appropriate heaven?

golentan
2014-03-04, 02:52 AM
It is permanent! The duration is instantaneous, and the effect doesn't end. I'd even hazard rules as written it would survive a Disjunction...

Socksy
2014-03-04, 03:15 AM
It is permanent! The duration is instantaneous, and the effect doesn't end. I'd even hazard rules as written it would survive a Disjunction...

Makes me think, though: what if they were hit by something like Fox's Cunning (That's the name of the INT-booster, right?) and got to a low human level of intelligence?

Demotivated
2014-03-04, 11:01 AM
Awaken will already give them Human like sentience, it gives the target 3d6 int and +1d3 charisma, +2 HD and becomes a magical beast.

Well at least the D&D 3.5 version does.

Socksy
2014-03-04, 11:13 AM
I meant, what if they got hit by Fox's Cunning instead of Awaken?

Demotivated
2014-03-04, 01:34 PM
My best guess is that you would just have smarter sheep, they wouldn't gain any new abilities other than do a bit better on intelligence based skill checks. They might make better conversation partners for a druid or anyone with speak with animal.

Grim Portent
2014-03-04, 01:55 PM
Technically speaking as soon as a sheep's int score goes above 2 it becomes a Magical Beast since animals can't have an int above 2. If it's a Half-Dragon sheep then it's already Dragon type and just becomes smarter.

Sith_Happens
2014-03-04, 02:18 PM
Technically speaking as soon as a sheep's int score goes above 2 it becomes a Magical Beast since animals can't have an int above 2.

Not quite. It does stop being an animal, but there's no general rule dictating that it becomes a magical beast.

Socksy
2014-03-04, 02:28 PM
Not quite. It does stop being an animal, but there's no general rule dictating that it becomes a magical beast.

What do you th ink it should become, then?

Sith_Happens
2014-03-04, 03:17 PM
What do you think it should become, then?

It probably should become a magical beast. What actually happens is that it ceases to have a type at all.

A Tad Insane
2014-03-04, 04:24 PM
Magical beast (dragonblooded) maybe? I don't thing the dragonblooded subtype only available to humaniods

Socksy
2014-03-04, 04:39 PM
It probably should become a magical beast. What actually happens is that it ceases to have a type at all.

Goddamnit, RAW.

Grim Portent
2014-03-04, 05:07 PM
Alternatively the sheep cannot have an int above 2 and any points above that do nothing unless you change it's type somehow.

Templates tend to bypass this by changing the creature type. A Half-Dragon sheep is a Dragon rather than an Animal for example, and can therefore benefit from the +2 int from Half-Dragon.

Erik Vale
2014-03-04, 05:08 PM
Prove it, then post in the dysfunction thread.
But yes, a int booster and constant speak with animals would be a good method for gaining info.

Sith_Happens
2014-03-05, 03:47 AM
Prove it, then post in the dysfunction thread.

Long since done.

DigoDragon
2014-03-05, 09:15 AM
What do you think it should become, then?

Dinner? :smalltongue:



Goddamnit, RAW.

LOL, I don't think I've ever seen this problem occur in my group. Looking at the d20 SRD, I would reckon that an animal getting an INT boost above 2 would be implied to have it's type changed to Magical Beast, but yeah, no explicit rule stating such occurs.

So I can see the "becomes untyped" issue being a sticky point for argument.

Socksy
2014-03-06, 03:22 AM
Dinner? :smalltongue:

Wouldn't that be cannibalism? Or racist or something?:smalltongue:





LOL, I don't think I've ever seen this problem occur in my group. Looking at the d20 SRD, I would reckon that an animal getting an INT boost above 2 would be implied to have it's type changed to Magical Beast, but yeah, no explicit rule stating such occurs.

So I can see the "becomes untyped" issue being a sticky point for argument.

They quite clearly cease to exist, or do so only on the Astral plane.

Sith_Happens
2014-03-06, 06:05 AM
So I can see the "becomes untyped" issue being a sticky point for argument.

Eh, the only thing it loses is Low-Light Vision.

SiuiS
2014-03-06, 06:10 AM
It probably should become a magical beast. What actually happens is that it ceases to have a type at all.

Fantastic. Zen, the sheep who is not.


((Why does it lose the animal type? That seems silly and unsubstantiated))

Sith_Happens
2014-03-06, 08:07 AM
Fantastic. Zen, the sheep who is not.

((Why does it lose the animal type? That seems silly and unsubstantiated))

Well, it's either that or their INT has a hard-cap:


Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

DigoDragon
2014-03-06, 08:54 AM
Wouldn't that be cannibalism? Or racist or something?:smalltongue:

The candy people in Adventure Time eat candy and no one calls them out on it.
So I think it'll be fine. :smallbiggrin:



Eh, the only thing it loses is Low-Light Vision.

"Baaa, I can think! Baaa, I can't see in the dark!"



Fantastic. Zen, the sheep who is not.

I bleat, therefore I aren't. I can see it now, a wizard taking out a stampede of cattle with a Mass Fox's Cunning spell.

Socksy
2014-03-06, 09:10 AM
I bleat, therefore I aren't. I can see it now, a wizard taking out a stampede of cattle with a Mass Fox's Cunning spell.

Someone should try that in a campaign. Or put it in the cheese thread.

A Tad Insane
2014-03-06, 12:43 PM
Wouldn't that also apply to vermin as well? That would be a great way to start an extermination business. Or cause a nuclear apocalypse ruled by roaches.

Slipperychicken
2014-03-06, 01:16 PM
Fantastic. Zen, the sheep who is not.


Quoth the sheep: "I think, therefore I am not"

Sith_Happens
2014-03-06, 01:25 PM
Wouldn't that also apply to vermin as well? That would be a great way to start an extermination business. Or cause a nuclear apocalypse ruled by roaches.

Vermin are Intelligence --, which can't be operated on.

Socksy
2014-03-06, 01:36 PM
You guys are all so beautiful. Can I sig the "baaa, I can think! Baaa, I can't see in the dark!" post?

illyahr
2014-03-06, 02:52 PM
Quoth the sheep: "I think, therefore I am not"

"Oh God, I just realized why Steve never came out of that shed!! Humans don't eat grass, man, they eat us!!!"

Leviting
2014-03-06, 10:07 PM
Awaken will already give them Human like sentience, it gives the target 3d6 int and +1d3 charisma, +2 HD and becomes a magical beast.

Well at least the D&D 3.5 version does.

Oh, I was unaware it gave the int boost...
Wait, 1d3 charisma? how do make a three sided 3-D figure?

Erik Vale
2014-03-06, 11:32 PM
Oh, I was unaware it gave the int boost...
Wait, 1d3 charisma? how do make a three sided 3-D figure?

You dont, it's a D4 with only 3 numbers. 1 around each side of the triangle.

Socksy
2014-03-07, 03:08 AM
You dont, it's a D4 with only 3 numbers. 1 around each side of the triangle.

Then won't it look like a different number depending on angle?

Mine is a d6 with sides 1,1,2,2,3,3

Erik Vale
2014-03-07, 07:07 AM
Then won't it look like a different number depending on angle?

Mine is a d6 with sides 1,1,2,2,3,3


Exactly, the one the right side up [the one on the bottom] is the right one.
However the D6 is another way to do it, I normally use a d6, deride the result by 2 and round up.

DigoDragon
2014-03-07, 08:26 AM
You guys are all so beautiful. Can I sig the "baaa, I can think! Baaa, I can't see in the dark!" post?

Go for it. :smallbiggrin:

Sith_Happens
2014-03-07, 08:44 AM
All the d3's I've seen have been triangular prisms.

Demotivated
2014-03-07, 10:34 AM
the 3 i have are all triangular prisms, two of them are like this (Glowing and all):
http://www.gamescience.com/3311-0002.jpg

Socksy
2014-03-07, 10:56 AM
Is the sig working? c: