OP or not OP???

[Bellberith]

So, there is a build i made with a Barghest (not sure if it has been done before but it wouldnt surprise me)

Basically have project image at will (with barghest lesser powers) and a ring of invisibility. you can now be anywhere within range at any time pretty much and not be in danger within 1 standard action. (by "you" i mean your image/sense)

now add in a Lion totem barbarian 1 level dip and a the other levels in warlock with eldritch claws feat.

going by project image you can cast spells from that image. since both project image and eldritch blast are at will you can pump out damage while hiding in the safety of your (wherever you are) and invisible.

you can not be detected because with misdirection you can just carry a pebble on you.

[eggynack]

Barghests are LA: -, which means that you can't be one. If there's some source that gives them workable LA, I am unaware of it. Thus, whether this is OP depends entirely on what LA you assign to it.

[Thurbane]

Barghests are LA: -, which means that you can't be one. If there's some source that gives them workable LA, I am unaware of it. Thus, whether this is OP depends entirely on what LA you assign to it.
Or if it's an NPC, which is entirely possible.

[holywhippet]

Misdirection doesn't block all divination spells. True seeing will go straight through it for example.

[eggynack]

Or if it's an NPC, which is entirely possible.
I suppose, though that seems less like a build and more like an encounter. Either way, where is project image coming from? I don't see it on the stat block.

[Bellberith]

Barghests are LA: -, which means that you can't be one. If there's some source that gives them workable LA, I am unaware of it. Thus, whether this is OP depends entirely on what LA you assign to it.


Or if it's an NPC, which is entirely possible.


I suppose, though that seems less like a build and more like an encounter. Either way, where is project image coming from? I don't see it on the stat block.



Savage species page 159.... Players CAN play them as it has the savage progression right there. and project image is there also.

[Zanos]

SS is a 3.0 book, and I'm assuming the Barghest racial progression was based on the 3.0 Barghest.

As per the rules for 3.0 content, it has to be updated to 3.5, which means changing the Barghest SS progression to be based on the 3.5 Barghest.

[eggynack]

Savage species page 159.... Players CAN play them as it has the savage progression right there. and project image is there also.
Ah. Fair enough then, and also probably not, on the OP thing. It takes 11 barghest levels in order to get the project image ability at will. To put it simply, you could do a lot better. As always, balance is relative, so a character that's broken in one game could be underpowered in another. However, at that high of a cost, this has to be pretty far down on the level curve.

[Bellberith]

SS is a 3.0 book, and I'm assuming the Barghest racial progression was based on the 3.0 Barghest.

As per the rules for 3.0 content, it has to be updated to 3.5, which means changing the Barghest SS progression to be based on the 3.5 Barghest.

No, the rule as i remember it is 3.0 content is legal unless it has been replaced. There has been no current 3.5 barghest savage progression.

[Thurbane]

The default rule for 3.0 material that hasn't been specifically updated for 3.5 is that the DM reserves the right to modify it for a 3.5 game.

[eggynack]

The default rule for 3.0 material that hasn't been specifically updated for 3.5 is that the DM reserves the right to modify it for a 3.5 game.
Eh, it seems reasonable to assume that it works as is in a vacuum. I mean, the DM reserves the right to modify anything, after all. It's kinda irrelevant though, given that this isn't all that good. It's a lot of cost for not that much gained.

[weckar]

It's one of the few books where I just don't understand why it never got an update. It's a customizers dream in there.

[holywhippet]

It's one of the few books where I just don't understand why it never got an update. It's a customizers dream in there.

Maybe they didn't want the players to be able to play a species that can advance it's hit dice and become an upgraded version of itself by eating people.

[Bellberith]

Maybe they didn't want the players to be able to play a species that can advance it's hit dice and become an upgraded version of itself by eating people.

Yea, theoretically a barghest can become the strongest thing in D&D i guess. but eating A LOT of humanoids.

unless there is something else i am not thinking of that can do something similar or is just so inherently powerful that a barghest can never hope to be stronger no matter how many HD.

[eggynack]

Yea, theoretically a barghest can become the strongest thing in D&D i guess. but eating A LOT of humanoids.

Nah, they turn into a greater barghest at 9 HD, and then the greater version maxes out at 18 HD. It's not unlimited, in other words, and even were it unlimited, they would only obtain a maximum HD equal to that which at least three humanoids already have. So, if there are only three humanoids of the highest HD quantity, then you could claim the top of that HD ladder, but barghests aren't that powerful, so they'll still be weaker than an ordinary humanoid with one fewer class levels than they have HD, and they can still fall lower than non-humanoids. Also doesn't apply to the SS version, cause they just get a crappy constitution bonus that doesn't stack with itself.

[Bellberith]

Nah, they turn into a greater barghest at 9 HD, and then the greater version maxes out at 18 HD. It's not unlimited, in other words, and even were it unlimited, they would only obtain a maximum HD equal to that which at least three humanoids already have. So, if there are only three humanoids of the highest HD quantity, then you could claim the top of that HD ladder, but barghests aren't that powerful, so they'll still be weaker than an ordinary humanoid with one fewer class levels than they have HD, and they can still fall lower than non-humanoids. Also doesn't apply to the SS version, cause they just get a crappy constitution bonus that doesn't stack with itself.

that is absolutely right. i was a little too ambitious with it! =P

and yea.... if the PCs could do what the 3.5 monster could. that'd be ridiculous.

[OldTrees1]

Not OP.
The limited uses per day happens to balance the abilities in this case.

[holywhippet]

Nah, they turn into a greater barghest at 9 HD, and then the greater version maxes out at 18 HD. It's not unlimited, in other words, and even were it unlimited, they would only obtain a maximum HD equal to that which at least three humanoids already have. So, if there are only three humanoids of the highest HD quantity, then you could claim the top of that HD ladder, but barghests aren't that powerful, so they'll still be weaker than an ordinary humanoid with one fewer class levels than they have HD, and they can still fall lower than non-humanoids. Also doesn't apply to the SS version, cause they just get a crappy constitution bonus that doesn't stack with itself.

That sort of depends on how easily you can get access to high level humanoids and take them down. If you can isolate strong enemies and weaken them via ambush,traps etc. you could conceivably be dining well about your class level. Don't forget a lot monsters are humanoids with decent hit dice. If your party takes them on one at a time you just need to put in the bite at the end.

[eggynack]

That sort of depends on how easily you can get access to high level humanoids and take them down. If you can isolate strong enemies and weaken them via ambush,traps etc. you could conceivably be dining well about your class level. Don't forget a lot monsters are humanoids with decent hit dice. If your party takes them on one at a time you just need to put in the bite at the end.
Well, yeah, you could definitely theoretically reach the quantity of HD of the highest HD humanoid as this uncapped barghest variant, but you can't get higher than that. Greater barghests of HD equal to that of the highest HD humanoid are almost certainly worse than the humanoid they ate, or some other humanoid alike to the one they ate. Because their powers aren't that great. Thus, even with maxed out HD, here defined as possessing HD equal to that of any humanoid, they will still not be the most powerful creature.

[holywhippet]

Well, yeah, you could definitely theoretically reach the quantity of HD of the highest HD humanoid as this uncapped barghest variant, but you can't get higher than that. Greater barghests of HD equal to that of the highest HD humanoid are almost certainly worse than the humanoid they ate, or some other humanoid alike to the one they ate. Because their powers aren't that great. Thus, even with maxed out HD, here defined as possessing HD equal to that of any humanoid, they will still not be the most powerful creature.

I'm more thinking in terms of party balance. It might not be so easy since your allies will have trouble keeping up, but in theory the three feedings per hit dice gain rule could see you well ahead of them in short order. I don't think it will be that weak either. With each hit dice gained it gets +1 strength, constitution and natural armour.

[eggynack]

I'm more thinking in terms of party balance. It might not be so easy since your allies will have trouble keeping up, but in theory the three feedings per hit dice gain rule could see you well ahead of them in short order. I don't think it will be that weak either. With each hit dice gained it gets +1 strength, constitution and natural armour.
Ah, you mean some theoretical barghest progression that grants real HD instead of a crappy constitution boost? Yeah, I could see that being pretty crazy in power terms, especially because it would let you speed through that progression.