Reasonable Paladin of Slaughter

[Lorick]

The Paladin of Slaughter's Code of Conduct says "A paladin of slaughter must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of slaughter's code requires that she disrespect all authority figures who have not proven their physical superiority to her, refuse help to those in need, and sow destruction and death at all opportunities. "

Now, how does anyone actually manage this? Never do any good act or respect an authority figure (even to further a scheme). Not to mention that a king might be physically weak, but still capable of telling his army to kill you. Then, you have to sow destruction and death at all opportunities, so there is no opportunity for being subtle. Is there a way to play one who isn't both chaotic stupid and stupid evil, or is this class always doomed to be killed by level 1?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Paladin of Slaughter is a class meant for psychopaths. They are not supposed to function in normal society.

[JaronK]

Honestly, I find both the UA Chaotic paladins to be nonsense... if they're Chaotic, they shouldn't be following a perfect lawful code of actions. They should really have goals that they never divert from. For the Paladin of Freedom, it should be something like "All your actions must move towards a goal of freedom for as many intelligent beings as possible" or similar, while the Paladin of Slaughter should constantly be striving towards killing the weak.

JaronK

[Tengu_temp]

The paladin of slaughter is a ridiculous caricature, a perfect example of the dumbest way of playing a CE character. It doesn't work as the token evil guy in a good or neutral party, and it doesn't work in an evil party with a modus operandi any subtler than "hai guise, let's kill everyone". It's a class for enemies you meet, kill, and move on.

[rollforeigninit]

IMHO, it's the perfect answer to the all Paladins (Standard LG types) fall if they jaywalk maliciously. Neither is tenable in reality. Use guidelines & codes of conduct anyways. (Yes, even for Chaotic types)

[NotScaryBats]

"Obviously, as a CE character, Axeface Lightningbeard is incapable of planning ahead even five seconds, so punching the king in the face and demanding he 'show me his pecs' was completely in character."

[Cikomyr]

Oh, come on people. You are describing the PoS (what an appropriate acronym) like you'd describe the more obtuse and annoying Lawful Good Paladin.

Let's imagine how you can play a Paladin PROPERLY, and then conceive a way you can play a Slaughterdin right.

[Red Fel]

That's the problem - the PoS is in many ways the antithesis of the Paladin proper.

It's not hard to visualize a well-played Paladin. It's not hard to visualize a well-played bloodthirsty murderous psychopath.

It's hard to visualize a well-played bloodthirsty murderous psychopath obeying a code of dishonor and wearing his pristine shiny (if jet black) armor, grinning manically while acting like the Bizarro to the Paladin's Superman.

To make the PoS playable, I would simply do away with the Code to a large extent. (Frankly, I've always found that the Paladin's Code is more appropriate as a role-playing concept than a mechanical concept.) The PoS becomes a bloodthirsty, murderous, savage warrior with some profane spells and abilities, who doesn't do Good.

And suddenly it works. Your PoS is now the grinning, scarred, unkempt savage who sits in the corner, grumbling while the party plans, before blurting out, "And I say we just barge in there and kill every last **** **** **** that moves!" He laughs while smashing faces with his unnecessarily spiked mace. When they meet the king, he spits on the guy, unless the king happens to be one of those exceptionally well-trained combat kings who ducks around and punches him so hard in the gut that he falls over. At which point he gets up, wheezes, and starts laughing, before he spits out, "You're alright, king."

The challenge is the Code. The challenge is taking this guy who has no respect for any authority except that wielded by a bigger arm than his own, and making him respect an arbitrary code of conduct. It just makes no sense.

[Cikomyr]

Actually, I've always wondered why we needed Paladin of Tyranny and Paladin of Slaughter, when we already had the FREAKKING BLACKGUARD

[Tengu_temp]

Blackguard is a prestige class. Some people can't wait 5 levels until the EDGE starts.

[Ravens_cry]

I'd make the code 'You fall if you lose the Chaotic Evil alignment."
That's all.

[Septimus]

Like said, it is the reverse code than the paladin. And it is as difficult to respect of the paladin one. I am playing a Paladin of Slaughter (among other classes) in a evil campaign and I have no problem with my code of conduct. Basically, you can accept order only by people that beat you before or that you know they will beat you anyway. My character is a mercenary and accepts orders from the leader because he is much powerful than me (for the moment) and within the group my character gives orders and receives none. The other players know that and I think it is fun game to go around to convince my character to do something without "ordering" him. Beside, the other characters are quite afraid of mine as I am probably the highest op of the group, even for a paladin-like character.

So, no, it is not doomed to be killed by level 1. Sure, it is made for psychopaths, but even psychopaths are not suicidal. You can be clever and enforce chaos and destruction at small scales first, and go big afterwards.

Also, the code for the paladin of slaughter is something funny, because it accepts that you bypass some of its tenets for some reasons, because you are chaotic by nature. My character is a drow, and I try to follow the chaotic evil nature of the drow as much as I can (even if I restrain the PvP option for a fair game).

[The Oni]

Perhaps the Paladin of Slaughter ought to be bound to serve the Greater Evil. It's OK to risk your life to save an innocent, as long as you plan to use that innocent to lure or trick some do-gooders into a deadly ambush later on. Or it's OK to take on a mission to save a village, as long as you make sure to extort a ludicrously high payment from the village when you're done.

[Cikomyr]

Blackguard is a prestige class. Some people can't wait 5 levels until the EDGE starts.

How about making the Paladin a prestige class, and remove it as a Base class?

[Vogonjeltz]

The Paladin of Slaughter's Code of Conduct says "A paladin of slaughter must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of slaughter's code requires that she disrespect all authority figures who have not proven their physical superiority to her, refuse help to those in need, and sow destruction and death at all opportunities. "

Now, how does anyone actually manage this? Never do any good act or respect an authority figure (even to further a scheme). Not to mention that a king might be physically weak, but still capable of telling his army to kill you. Then, you have to sow destruction and death at all opportunities, so there is no opportunity for being subtle. Is there a way to play one who isn't both chaotic stupid and stupid evil, or is this class always doomed to be killed by level 1?

Sounds custom built for an Orc champion. Only respects might and evil to the core.

[NotScaryBats]

I don't see why evil deities can't have paladins -- Blackguards are explicitly fallen paladins, right? It makes sense for, say, Lolth or Grummsh to have their chosen champions with fearlessness and Smite Good and such. Even from level 1.

[Ravens_cry]

I don't see why evil deities can't have paladins -- Blackguards are explicitly fallen paladins, right? It makes sense for, say, Lolth or Grummsh to have their chosen champions with fearlessness and Smite Good and such. Even from level 1.
Something that would work better supernatural rager type for the more violent evil gods and something more subterfuge based for the more scheming types, rather than a search and replace. I think even Wizard of the Coast realized the silliness of this with the 'Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) April Fool's joke.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't see why evil deities can't have paladins -- Blackguards are explicitly fallen paladins, right? It makes sense for, say, Lolth or Grummsh to have their chosen champions with fearlessness and Smite Good and such. Even from level 1.

Paladins don't need a deity to have power.

[Slipperychicken]

I get the feeling the PoS is intended for NPCs more than PCs, so that a PC Paladin can meet his evil counterpart (probably a PoS champion of an evil god), totally kick its ass, and not worry about falling for once.

Also, the acronym "POS" describes the class quite well :smallbiggrin:


If I had the time, I would try to compile a list of Good acts to figure out whether the PoS is viable by RAW.

[Cikomyr]

I'd have to agree that the classic Sauron-like Black Knight of Darkness would only fit certain evil deities like Bane, Myrkul, Hextor and other LE lords of oppression.

CE or NE would need more.. thematic-appropriate champions. For that matter, I don't think all good deities would actually have Paladins. Deities like Elhonna, Mielikkie, Sylvanus and Corellon Larethian would rather have Rangers.

And I disagree with the previously mentionned idea that Paladins don't need deities. While I agree that a Paladin don't necessarily need to be part of an organized cult, it certainly need an extraplanar Patron that deems it worthy of being its champion. Maybe an Archangel?

[Vogonjeltz]

I get the feeling the PoS is intended for NPCs more than PCs, so that a PC Paladin can meet his evil counterpart (probably a PoS champion of an evil god), totally kick its ass, and not worry about falling for once.

Also, the acronym "POS" describes the class quite well :smallbiggrin:


If I had the time, I would try to compile a list of Good acts to figure out whether the PoS is viable by RAW.

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

That being the case, I submit that acting like a selfish jerk who is in it only for themselves is a perfectly viable play style for a PoS. just think: most bad guys in game of thrones. (Lip service != respect)

[Cikomyr]

Hmmm...

Gregor Clegane.. Paladin of Tyranny or Paladin of Slaughter?

I'd think he's a huge PoS, but I am open to arguments

[Fax Celestis]

Honestly, if I were to try to make a paladin of slaughter work, I'd probably get my hands on the Gruesome Finish and Eviscerator feats, dip something to pick up Sneak Attack, then grab some levels of Avenging Executioner, maybe try to sneak into Dread Witch somehow to get around fear immunity.

I mean, if you're going to be a paladin of slaughter, you might as well revel in it.

[Sam K]

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

That being the case, I submit that acting like a selfish jerk who is in it only for themselves is a perfectly viable play style for a PoS. just think: most bad guys in game of thrones. (Lip service != respect)

This!

The viability of a PoS depends heavily on how you define "good acts". Is protecting an ally that has proven its use to you a good act? Caring for your family? Even demons, beings of pure chaos and evil, can stop fighting eachother to rally against an external enemy (it would be a pretty lame blood war otherwise). Orcs and drow will protect their young, and some will die to defend their homes (not out of benevolence, mind you, it's just that losing your shelter and supplies usually means death anyway so you might as well fight). In a universe where killing sentinent beings who are so much weaker than you that they are essentially defenseless is not considered evil (lvl 20 paladins are free to slaughter goblins all day), one could have considerable flexibility in what is considered "good" as well. "Good" acts could easily be defined as "an act that furthers the cosmical force of good". Even being nice to puppies doesn't qualify for that, unless it's a celestial puppy destined to become an arch-puppy-angel or something.

Game of Thrones is like an textbook example of "functional evil" characters. My favorite example of socially acceptable CE is Jaime Lannister in the first book/first season of the show. The guy actively, frequently and intentionally breaks some of the strongest tabu his society has.. He betrays his oaths, his religion and his family honor, showing no real concerns for any of these things. He kills children! Well, one child anyway. He doesn't do it for any great purpose that could justify it - he's essentially a slave to lust, pride and destructive desires. That's the essence of chaotic evil in my book - hurting and betraying others because it's the easiest way to get what you want, with no concern for the result of your actions. It's not "for da evulz", it's "for da winz, da lulz and da womenz!"

[hamishspence]

The viability of a PoS depends heavily on how you define "good acts". Is protecting an ally that has proven its use to you a good act? Caring for your family? Even demons, beings of pure chaos and evil, can stop fighting eachother to rally against an external enemy (it would be a pretty lame blood war otherwise).

I would say that there do exist demon and devil Evil Paladins, if those classes are being used.

And thus - if they are to fight in the Blood War, then slaying a fiend cannot be "Always a Good act"

[Deophaun]

Game of Thrones is like an textbook example of "functional evil" characters.
"Functional evil" is different than someone who is committed to evil for evil's sake, which is what the PoS is. Jaime Lannister wouldn't be a PoS, because he doesn't sow discord at every opportunity. Ironically, the incident with Bran is evidence of this, as he does that to keep a secret that, if it got out, would result in a bloody power struggle. So, he not only missed an opportunity, but he actively intervened to quash it.

[Tengu_temp]

How about making the Paladin a prestige class, and remove it as a Base class?

Only if you make the paladin worth taking as a prestige class. There's a prestige paladin alternative rule already, but I'm not sure if it's any good.


I don't see why evil deities can't have paladins -- Blackguards are explicitly fallen paladins, right?

No, blackguards don't have to be fallen paladins, and most of them aren't.

[Mirakk]

Only if you make the paladin worth taking as a prestige class. There's a prestige paladin alternative rule already, but I'm not sure if it's any good.

Oh Prestige Paladin is plenty good. Considerably better than being a paladin base class. 3-4 levels and you're out with all the goodies. If you have cleric casting, you just picked up all the paladin spells as level 1-4 spells but have a cleric's number of slots to cast them with. Take battle blessing, and call it a day.