Power Attack Feat - D&D 3.5 n00b

[dcook22]

Hey folks,

I just started playing in a D&D 3.5 campaign for the first time. The last time I played D&D, there were thac0's and AC was a negative number.

Anyway...I am having an issue understanding the Power Attack Feat in the PHB.

I know Power attack allows me to take numbers from my BAB and apply them to damage when I hit with a melee attack. I am confused by the application of two parts of the feat description.

1. The amount of BAB being applied to damage must be stated before the attack is made

2. This amount is subtratced from each attack (applies to all melee attacks), but the amount cannot exceed your BAB.

So to illustrate my confusion, let's assume a 7th level fighter with +7/+2 BAB, and let's assume a one handed melee attack with a longsword with no modifiers for weapons, strength, or feats. Let's say the fighter wanted to add 7 points of damage to each melee attack as is allowed by the feat. Which of the following would happen?

a. He attacks at +0/-5 because he subtracts 7 from each attack to gain the +7 damage to each attack, and would in fact add 7 points of damage to each attack if he hits.

b. He attacks at +0/+0 but adds 7 damage to the first attack if he hits and adds only 2 damage if he should hit on the second attack. This resutling from him not being able to add more than his BAB to each attack, and his BAB is different for each attack.

I guess I am asking because it looks like the fighter would suffer significant losses to his ability to hit on later attacks if he attempts to apply his maximum damage to his first attack.

Can one of you long-time players clarify this for me?


Thanks!

Dan

p.s. Any illustrative examples would be great.

[OldTrees1]

"a" is the correct description.

Base Attack Bonus of +7 gives you 1 attack at +7 attack bonus and 1 attack at +2 attack bonus.

You can accept a penalty up to your BAB(+7) on your attacks (+7/+2) for new attack bonuses of +0/-5.

You add the same value to your damage (unless it was wielded two handed, then you get twice the value).


EX:
+9BAB, maximum penalty -9, penalty used -4, attack sequence Longsword +5/+0, Damage +4
+12BAB, maximum penalty -12, penalty used -12, attack sequence Greatsword +0/-5/-10, damage +24

[INoKnowNames]

I'm pretty sure that the numbers are capable of making the to-hit rolls negative. You trade off how accurate your attacks might be for the ability to make those attacks devastating when they hit. In your scenario (which I mostly glanced over, to be honest), I'm pretty sure you'd go with A.

That's the main reason the Shock Trooper feat is so effective: take the number out of your defenses instead, so that you have the best chance to hit, and just hope that you outright slay your enemy instead.

Even still, between stat bonuses to your preferred attack style, buffs from allied casters, and keeping a high base attack bonus, hitting is usually considered not too hard even without it. You just usually can't power attack the entire way, instead doing it partially, and experimenting to see how hard you can hit and still be accurate.

I really hope this post isn't full of crap...

Damn! Partially swordsaged, and by a minute!

Though at least I got to swordsage a few others about Shock Trooper.

[dcook22]

Thanks guys!

[JaronK]

1. The amount of BAB being applied to damage must be stated before the attack is made

Correct.


2. This amount is subtratced from each attack (applies to all melee attacks), but the amount cannot exceed your BAB.

Correct.


So to illustrate my confusion, let's assume a 7th level fighter with +7/+2 BAB, and let's assume a one handed melee attack with a longsword with no modifiers for weapons, strength, or feats. Let's say the fighter wanted to add 7 points of damage to each melee attack as is allowed by the feat. Which of the following would happen?

a. He attacks at +0/-5 because he subtracts 7 from each attack to gain the +7 damage to each attack, and would in fact add 7 points of damage to each attack if he hits.

That is what happens. He probably should have opted for a two handed weapon so as to get much higher damage out of this, or considered using Shock Trooper (a few in Complete Warrior) to take the penalty to AC instead of attack.

JaronK

[eggynack]

He probably should have opted for a two handed weapon so as to get much higher damage out of this, or considered using Shock Trooper (a few in Complete Warrior) to take the penalty to AC instead of attack.

Or both. Probably both.

[Urpriest]

To further clarify, the Fighter's BAB is +7, not +7/+2. You do get your second iterative attack at +2, but that number is not also called your Base Attack Bonus, as that term is reserved for the +7.

[Chronos]

And in the majority of cases, unless you're using something like Shock Trooper, your optimum amount of Power Attack will only be something like -2 or so, especially if you're able to make a full attack. Maybe a bit more on a charge, since you've then got some extra attack bonus, and won't be making your iterative attacks.

[graeylin]

But remember OP, by level 7, your fighter should have a magic weapon, perhaps +1, +2 or so? Or, a friendly cleric casting a buff spell on his weapon for additional bonuses.

Also, weapon proficiencies, weapon expertise, perhaps... so his +7 BAB is just (as named) a base. Add in +2 for his magic weapon, and another +2 for his feats, and that's "free" bonus to play with.

Just use that to fuel his power attack, and you keep hitting at +7/+2, and do 4 extra damage each time (doubled to 8 if you swing two handed).

[ericgrau]

Secondary attacks do make power attack less worth it, and you should PA for more on single attacks and less on full attacks. Bonuses to hit change little, because usually you're better off keeping most of that bonus rather than dumping any more into PA than you already are. Especially when you need to fuel your secondary attacks.

So generally the high optimization trick is to grab Shocktrooper Heedless Charge. Heedless Charge is the last 1/3 of Shocktrooper, among several other 1/3 feats which are very weak because they're only 1/3 of a feat. That's why no one ever talks about the other 2/3 of Shocktrooper. They refer to it as Shocktrooper rather than Heedless Charge because no one cares about the rest of the feat and there's no need to distinguish. Which is why it's an obvious author oversight, but people keep suggesting it anyway because it's so powerful.

Without shocktrooper you're usually best off with a -2 to -4 dumped into power attack, and towards the low end or none at all on full attacks as you get into higher and higher level. At very high level you stop using it on single attacks too. That's because you lose damage from the -2 to -4, such that any more would cause you to lose more than the +2 damage each point gives you. And the last 1-3 points take away almost as much damage as the +2 damage gives. So at low level (when the feat is best) it is not actually +4 or +8 damage, but effectively more like +1 to +3 damage and usually closer to the lower end of that range.

So yes, by itself, you do want to use PA more often and with a greater penalty on single attacks than full attacks and you often can't get much out of it. If you optimize a bit you can get way way more out of it.

[lsfreak]

That's why no one ever talks about the other 2/3 of Shocktrooper.

Nitpick: It is brought up with regularity in builds with Dungeoncrasher, such as King of Pong.

[Studoku]

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, here's a Power Attack calculator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/).

If you know the AC of your target, enter your BAB and modifiers and you'll know the best amount for the highest average damage.

[Debihuman]

Actually Power Attack lets you do this: "On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn."

Debby