Covering Healing/Buffing Role Without Divine Magic? (3.5)

[ChaoticDitz]

I'm about to try to run a game, and I'd like to entirely remove Divine stuff for story and setting background purposes. Problem is, I don't know if they can cover all the necessary bits without a divine caster/character of any kind. In-combat healing is obviously mostly pointless, but without Divine items or spells, they may find healing between combats and removing certain negative conditions nearly impossible. This in conjunction with the fact that we're going for very low-op and no-cheese means that filling these roles might be a lot harder, though I figure arcane casters can at least handle buffing and bringing the suck to Undead.

So, what roles will a complete lack of divine (pun intended) magic cause the players to have trouble filling, and how can I help them cover for those problems/advise them on how to cover said problems, without raising the op-level of the group in the process?

(Not that I have anything against high-op, it's just not what I'm looking to run right now)

[Skevvix]

Well, there is still the Bard and some PrCs that have Cure X on their list.

As far as roles that would be unfilled, I don't think there are really any. Like you said, the buff/debuffing is done by the arcane caster, and as I said above, there is the Bard at least to fill the healing needs, so wands of CureX should still be able to be found/bought still.

Edit: Spelling

Edit2: Moar stuff.

[eastmabl]

It's tough to pull off healing minus divine magic, but here's my thoughts:

- Bard, and bards who have incentive to take item creation feats.

- Eternal wands of CLW with X charges per day that are greater than 2. (Have to be bonded to user after 24 hours in her care; 3+ the bonded user's Cha bonus times/day?) The wands are artifacts, and since they don't run out, you don't have to pull wands out of your butt. The rogue with with good UMD gets one.

- Heightened natural healing - instead of getting back HP/level after 8 hours, you can increase the natural healing to HP/level/hour or something like that.

- Heal skill which heals limited but actual HP. For example, with a heal check DC X, you heal Y HP (HP/level?) after waiting a period of time:

10:1
15:2
20:4
25:10

- Healing surges from 4th ed? You'd probably want more than 1/encounter.

[Red Fel]

Wands are going to be your big go-to for healing, which is fine, since they're a pretty good method even with divine casters present. (Obviously, if removing divine magic also means removing wands, that's a problem.) Crusader healing is also good, and not technically magic. If you have a Dragonblooded character, mount, or animal companion, Draconic Aura (Vigor) is good for fast healing below half.

Buffs are something a lot of people can do. Don't forget that many of the classic buffs, such as Owl's Wisdom, are on the arcane list as well. So is Mighty Wallop. You won't be getting Divine Power, but that's a target: self spell anyway. Interestingly, Aspect of the Platinum Dragon is a Sorcerer spell, not divine, but somehow I don't think it's quite what you had in mind for buffs.

It is, however, sick. So, that.

The thing to remember is that a party generally doesn't need a dedicated healer/buffer. They don't. Healing is most efficiently done out of combat, and anyone with UMD can pull that off. Buffs can come from a variety of sources as well. So keep that in mind.

Also, handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2710.0).

[OldTrees1]

Have your arcane spellcaster take the following 2 feats:
Arcane Disciple (Renewal Domain)
Touch of Healing

Result: Infinite out of combat healing & access to the Restoration line as arcane spells.

[Skevvix]

Have your arcane spellcaster take the following 2 feats:
Arcane Disciple (Renewal Domain)
Touch of Healing

Result: Infinite out of combat healing & access to the Restoration line as arcane spells.

But if there is no Divine Magic then there would be no Clerics, and if there are no clerics, then there are 0 domains available to clerics of X diety.

Just sayin'

[ZamielVanWeber]

Crusaders can do some healing. It is not amazing, but it works.

[Theomniadept]

A simple matter to cover the Healing role is the Healing Belt for 750 gp. Everyone can get one, later on multiple ones. They're so good they negate that 'need' for a healer. Not that a healer is necessary, it just keeps the party moving instead of stopping to sleep after every combat.

As far as buffs go, arcane casters can do enough buffing to take that over. Divine-only magics can be substituted by items like Everlasting Rations, Replenishing Skins, and the Field Provisions Box to eliminate the need for a cleric to cast Create Food and Water every day. Magic Bedrolls allow people to sleep with Endure Elements and heal more through rest, instead of needing a cleric to cast Endure Elements once or more for every players (depending on their CL).

[OldTrees1]

But if there is no Divine Magic then there would be no Clerics, and if there are no clerics, then there are 0 domains available to clerics of X diety.

Just sayin'

I never mentioned Clerics.

Just sayin'

[ChaoticDitz]

... Not sure if domains make sense with no source granting the divine magics, but those are some good suggestions nonetheless.

[JusticeZero]

Even easier : Take all the healing spells and cram them all into Necromancy. Call it a day. It's actually a minor nerf to the pure casters who now have to spread their resources out even more. Plus, Necromancy was one of the weakest and most dumped schools. Enchantment is the other one. Put things like Remove Curse in it.

[Doc_Maynot]

Depending on one's reading of the sorcerer entry they may be able to do it.

"A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. The sorcerer can’t use this method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a faster rate, however.

[Valwyn]

You could try a Bard/Combat Medic. Bards get most Cure spells (up to Mass CMW), Neutralize Poison, and have nice buffs. Combat Medic adds Heal to your list.

I never got to try it, but Bard 5/Combat Medic 5/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5 sounds like it could be nice for an arcane healer. (You do lose a caster level, though.) Take the Healing Hymn ACF (replaces Fascinate) to further boost healing spells.

The Healing Touch reserve feat lets you heal without spending spells and Mitigate Suffering gives you a temporary (10 minutes) fix to ability damage, but you need at least Lesser Restoration to use it.

If you allow domains to exist (which is unlikely since there are no gods to grant them), you could take Arcane Disciple (Renewal domain) and add Lesser Restoration, Remove Disease, Reincarnate, and Heroes' Feast to your list.

Some Bard spells you might consider:
1:
Healthful Rest
Cure Light Wounds

2:
Summon Elysian Thrush
Cure Moderate Wounds

3:
Insignia of Healing
Cure Serious Wounds

4:
Healing Spirit
Summon Monster IV: cervinal guardial

5:
Mass Cure Light Wounds
Magic Convalescence
Summon Monster V: energons

6:
Mass Cure Moderate Wounds
Revenance
Snowsong
Summon Monster VI (Bralani, Eladrin)

[Telonius]

Warforged shrug it off and take another arcane Repair Construct. :smallbiggrin:

Binder might be your best bet: binding Buer will give you all the out-of-combat healing you need.

There are a couple of soulmelds in Incarnum that can help a bit: Lifebond Vestments and Phoenix Belt, but they're either dangerous (Lifebond deals you half the damage you heal) or kind of situational (Phoenix Belt has to be bound to the waist, and only heals if you would block fire damage).

Something else you might want to consider: taking away divine casting will give Rangers a pretty hard kick in the teeth. Will you be removing the class entirely, or giving them something in place of their spells?

[Talionis]

Healing isn't nearly so hard as removing negative levels ability damage, and regenerating lost limbs, bringing people back to life.

Bards can do a lot of it. You might as easily add spells to the Bard list as add them to the Necromancer spell list (but I see that as also a good idea).

NPC's might work. You could add the necessary spells to the Adept list.

Depending on your fluff you could still have Divine healers as NPC where the spells required rituals and more time. That's how we grant access to higher level stuff in E6.

[tricktroller]

I'm planning to use a regenerating pool of HP in my game.

The way it will work is that half your hit points round up will be in a pool of "energy" which regenerates at a rate of 2 points per minute outside of combat, the other half rounded down is actual HP. This means that at first level a fighter with 16 con will have 7 points of energy and 6 points of HP. HP is regained by spells, rest, or by getting a dc 20 heal check which will heal you up to half of your maximum hit points once outside of combat. To be clear you can not heal to full with a heal check only to half.

I like this because part of the damage you receive is from being winded and bruised but your body heals from that faster than the actual cuts and stab wounds. The heal check signifies pushing guts back in suturing stab wounds etc.

This also allows you to have someone who isn't a cleric keep the party mostly patched up. Also by reducing the number of hit points you have, resting can actual heal up a lot of damage.

This type of party could run without a healer at all.

Also each character has a second wind they can activate once per day that allows them to roll half their Hit die rounded up and regain that many energy points.

[Misunderstood]

How about using psionics? In particular the Ardent form Complete Psionics with the life mantle, you get restoration and curing. Psionics aren't great for buffing as it is mainly self only but as others have already mentioned a wizard or bard can handle that.

[tricktroller]

if you take arcane disciple with the healing domain you now have the cure line on your spell lists and you could make wands, and scrolls of it to use later. I'd say let the player start out with like 5-6 scrolls of it since they can only ever cast it once a day off their spell slots.

[DR27]

Everybody replying so far has only addressed hitpoint damage, which is easily handled by many other classes and items. The real question though, which the guide to healing only partly addresses, is that without divine help, ability damage, negative levels, blind, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafness, disease, exhaustion, fatigue, feeblemindedness, insanity, nausea, sickened, stunned, and poison are really hard to deal with. You should focus on how to help your PCs with those things before worrying about hit points, which are easy to repair. There are some items that help with the ability damage at mid levels, but negative levels are still tough to deal with, and many of those status conditions become very difficult to remove.

[tricktroller]

I mean I have a simple if inelegant solution to both problems....

Have an entire party of warforged with a wizard healer....

[BrokenChord]

In our campaign we have no healer whatsoever.
We're level 13 and have plenty of GP. We also have haversacks. They're stuffed with wands (cure light) and potions (cure moderate) and that works fine.

In more serious situations, we simply search for the nearest healer (the 'local' cleric) and pay them to do whatever task we want them for. Ofcourse its not doable in a dungeon, but resurrection can also be purchased.

It really isn't an issue in our setting. Ofcourse, if you're in a world with no divine magic at all, then it would be different.

Problem is, in the OP's setting, those NPCs don't have teh healin magix either, and the best you could hope for in terms of wands and potions would be derpy Bard stuff if they exist at all.

EDIT: lolwut, where did the post I quoted go

[OldTrees1]

if you take arcane disciple with the healing domain you now have the cure line on your spell lists and you could make wands, and scrolls of it to use later. I'd say let the player start out with like 5-6 scrolls of it since they can only ever cast it once a day off their spell slots.

The Renewal Domain has Restoration which is often more important. Arcane Disciple of either domain enables the Touch of Healing feat (which obsoletes the Healing domain).

[tricktroller]

yeah excepting the fact that touch of healing only heals up to a maximum of half your hit points. Meaning you can never heal people to full.....

[OldTrees1]

yeah excepting the fact that touch of healing only heals up to a maximum of half your hit points. Meaning you can never heal people to full.....

So? It is a rare fight where your party will lose more than half their health. (Primarily because such a fight has a high chance of killing at least 1 player even if they were all at full health)

[tricktroller]

In the group that I have played with the wording was ruled as you cannot heal people more than half of their total hit points with it and could not bring a character above half their hit points. I.e. you have 20 hp you lost 17 I can heal you for 7 with touch of healing and then no more.

[Slipperychicken]

Even easier : Take all the healing spells and cram them all into Necromancy.

Wasn't healing part of necromancy before 3rd edition? It made a lot of sense since necromancy was essentially "power over life and death", Inflict spells were simply reversed Cure spells, and both were covered by Necromancy.

[OldTrees1]

In the group that I have played with the wording was ruled as you cannot heal people more than half of their total hit points with it and could not bring a character above half their hit points. I.e. you have 20 hp you lost 17 I can heal you for 7 with touch of healing and then no more.

That is how it works and for most battles, that is sufficient.

[Slipperychicken]

That is how it works and for most battles, that is sufficient.

If you're going into appropriately-CR'd fights with the party at half hit points and coming out with no friendly casualties (i.e. KO or death), I'm inclined to say the GM is going a bit easy on you.

[tricktroller]

Lol I wasn't saying it wasn't doable, I was just making sure you weren't thinking like one of our old players was, that you could heal half of their maximum hitpoints but they had to be hurt first so you could heal them up to full if they had taken half their hit point exactly.

[Tar Palantir]

Healing Belts, Rod of Bodily Restoration, and Orb of Mental Renewal cover HP and ability damage, and they're all charge-per-day items. Fairly cheap, too (enough so that the only reason for anyone in the party not to have a Healing Belt is if they have a more important belt-slot item and haven't got around to buying a combined version). Magic Item Compendium for all of them. It's a little brute-force, but the condition stuff can be handled with Iron Heart Surge pretty unambiguously (it's either two feats or a feat and a cheap item to get if you're not a Warblade, but still useful in its own right, so take that as you will).

[OldTrees1]

If you're going into appropriately-CR'd fights with the party at half hit points and coming out with no friendly casualties (i.e. KO or death), I'm inclined to say the GM is going a bit easy on you.

Considering equal CR'd fights only expend 20-25% of resources, I think it is fair to say half health is sufficient.


@tricktroller
Thank you for checking!

[mucat]

Pathfinder's Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist) class offers interesting options for a non-divine healer. (Especially if the idea of this campaign is that divine magic does not exist at all, including in the item forms that others have suggested here.)

[JusticeZero]

Wasn't healing part of necromancy before 3rd edition? It made a lot of sense since necromancy was essentially "power over life and death", Inflict spells were simply reversed Cure spells, and both were covered by Necromancy.
In a way; Cleric spells were also given their wizardry school identifier in order to adjudicate things that are "immune to ____ magics"; all of the healing spells had a Necromancy identifier, but were still only available to cleric types.
If you have psionics, the PF psionic material has a dedicated healing class.